Sciencemadness Discussion Board

H2O2 vs Acids, injuries and pain

Syn the Sizer - 8-6-2020 at 14:05

Hell All,

As many of us know, with the whole COVID situation and the social distancing school lab classes have been discontinued. I am literally the only person in my class who is doing lab work outside of school, so I am staying in practice. I am a very big stickler for safety, both in the workplace/school as well as home. Employers love me employees hate me lol.

Now to get to my point. I have dealt with concentrated HCl and 98% H2SO4 both ungloved. In school we are taught to deal with H2SO4 ONLY while wearing kitchen gloves but they never stress the dangers of concentrated H2O2.

I do understand and realize the dangers of HCL and H2SO4, they are no joke. But in my home lab I will handle H2SO4 bottles with no gloves, even get it on my skin and finish my task quickly and wash with a bicarb solution I have never had burns ever.

I never deal with 29% H2O2 without gloves ever and if I get H2O2 on my my skin I instantly drop what I am doing and run to the sink, which we all know really doesn't do much, it burns and itches like hell and if the burns are bad enough your sensitivity on the burns will take a few days to recover. I have left 31.45% HCl on my skin for over 5 min and still just a minor irritation and rash.

I feel Chemistry courses need to stress the dangers of H2O2 more, they scare students with acids but don't stress the dangers of H2O2. In my first year we didn't even learn about H2O2 and HCl producing Cl2.

Hydrogen Peroxide

MadHatter - 8-6-2020 at 14:27

This compound comes in many concentrations
depending on the application. Like acids, the
higher the concentration the more dangerous.
At 90% hydrogen peroxide can be downright
explosive. This concentration is the fuel used
in some rocket cars and from what I've
witnessed the drivers of these vehicles can
only use full thrust for perhaps 100 yards or a
little bit more in a quarter mile. The rocket
motor(back in the 1980s) produced about
5000 LBS of thrust.

Syn the Sizer - 8-6-2020 at 14:41

Exactly, I have met people afraid of touching a bottle of muriatic acid because it has "acid" in the name yet laugh at me because I am wearing gloves to handle peroxide. I just feel the risks have been downplayed for years, even at 3% concentration is can burn and oxidize fires. The same people have handled 30% acetic acid with bare hands because it is labelled as "30% vinegar".

Morgan - 8-6-2020 at 14:47

My dentist suggested diluting 3% H2O2 with water 50/50 as a mouthwash. I felt like I had throat cancer from the effect. Never again.

karlos³ - 8-6-2020 at 14:53

Quote: Originally posted by Syn the Sizer  
Exactly, I have met people afraid of touching a bottle of muriatic acid because it has "acid" in the name yet laugh at me because I am wearing gloves to handle peroxide. I just feel the risks have been downplayed for years, even at 3% concentration is can burn and oxidize fires. The same people have handled 30% acetic acid with bare hands because it is labelled as "30% vinegar".

Meh, some people have to experience that all to gain respect.
If its bleached fingers from H2O2, yellow fingers from HNO3, or really hurt fingers from either H2SO4 or NaOH, some people only learn from experience(hopefully).

Syn the Sizer - 8-6-2020 at 15:01

I have gotten more pain from 3 seconds of 29% H2O2 than ~30 seconds of H2SO4. As long as you wash with a bicarb solution there is minimal damage. The issue with H2O2 is how do you neutralize it, your skins burns and itches until the oxidization stops. Even after that it lasts a few days if severe enough.

karlos³ - 8-6-2020 at 15:41

Yeah I was surprised the first times I worked with concentrated H2O2 at home, since I never experienced that at work.
Its ok though, I never found it hurts much, I guess I was lucky so far.
But acids, oh man, I've gotten once or thrice conc. H2SO4 in cuts at the hands.... never hydrogen peroxide though(luckily).

Chemorg42 - 8-6-2020 at 15:55

Quote: Originally posted by Morgan  
My dentist suggested diluting 3% H2O2 with water 50/50 as a mouthwash. I felt like I had throat cancer from the effect. Never again.


My grandfather swallows several drops of 30% H2O2 per day to "Clear his system." Normally, I think that if people want to indulge in pseudoscientific home remedy drivel, then nothing I say is likely to stop them, but seriously, 30% hydrogen peroxide?!, That just can't be good for a person (not to mention burn like heck.)
Has anyone else come across this self destructive "Health" practice?

karlos³ - 8-6-2020 at 16:00

Does he swallow that pure? :o
Thats heavy stuff!
Ouch!
In my imagination he has a white or white spotted tongue :D

Lately I used diluted DMSO for back pain though... I am not as sceptical against home remedy for chemicals as I was earlier, because after 2 weeks of suffering I was almost pain free :o

Syn the Sizer - 8-6-2020 at 21:38

Quote: Originally posted by Chemorg42  

My grandfather swallows several drops of 30% H2O2 per day to "Clear his system." Normally, I think that if people want to indulge in pseudoscientific home remedy drivel, then nothing I say is likely to stop them, but seriously, 30% hydrogen peroxide?!, That just can't be good for a person (not to mention burn like heck.)
Has anyone else come across this self destructive "Health" practice?


I have heard it is sold in some health food stores here for that purpose. Though I get mine from a garden shop.
Quote: Originally posted by karlos³  
Yeah I was surprised the first times I worked with concentrated H2O2 at home, since I never experienced that at work.
Its ok though, I never found it hurts much, I guess I was lucky so far.
But acids, oh man, I've gotten once or thrice conc. H2SO4 in cuts at the hands.... never hydrogen peroxide though(luckily).


Ouch, I bet the H2SO4 in a cut would burn like hell.

[Edited on 9-6-2020 by Syn the Sizer]

Bedlasky - 8-6-2020 at 23:19

I use gloves only in special cases. When I work with acids, bases, H2O2, I always work with it without gloves and I am fine. Sometimes drop of H2O2 splits on my fingers, it itches for short time, but nothing serious, just little bit uncomfortable.

Belowzero - 9-6-2020 at 00:05

I've known experienced chemists who do not wear gloves in most cases, the argument was that it is hard to distingish between sweat inside a glove and potential leakage of the glove.
The latter would be worse since it would cause prolonged exposure without being aware of it.

For most acids/bases or solvents I don't use gloves, the exception would be toxic or carcinogenic substances.
I do however always have dilute acid and a dilute base solution closeby in case I really make a mess.
Being aware of what substance you are about to handle makes all the difference , I switch to careful mode when working with concentrated acids or other dangerous chemicals.

woelen - 9-6-2020 at 01:48

I have experience with 30% H2O2 on my skin, and indeed it can be quite irritating. It gives white spots. I never, however, had serious issues with it.

I usually also work without gloves. Also, when handling 30% H2O2, conc. H2OS4, conc. HCl, conc. HBr, and 65% nitric acid.
Some chemicals, however, I do not pour, but for these I use a pipette to transfer them from a small bottle to a test tube (or other reaction vessel). The chemicals I am talking about are:
- bromine
- thionyl chloride
- sulfuryl chloride
- chlorosulfonic acid
- acetyl chloride
- hydrofluoric acid

I put the bottle in the ceramic sink and I put the reaction vessel in the sink as well and then I use a pipette to transfer the liquid. In this way, the risk of getting the chemical on your hand is practically zero.

Working with hydrofluoric acid is a special thing. Actually I hardly do any experiments with that. It is too dangerous. Much more dangerous than the other bad guys, also because of its extremely risky systemic effects.

I never had a drop of one of the pipetted chemicals on my skin, and if I accidentally dripped some of the chemical outside the reaction vessel, then I just let it go and when cleaning up, I rinsed it away with a lot of water, before touching the reaction vessel.

[Edited on 9-6-20 by woelen]

karlos³ - 9-6-2020 at 02:49

I have to say, the only things I use gloves now always are bromoketones, benzyl halides and irritating nitrostyrenes.
And I handle them just as woelen describes when I transfer them, never weigh them but always measure the amounts per density.

Syn the Sizer - 9-6-2020 at 07:18

For pretty much everything I do not wear gloves, but I hate the itching and burning from H2O2 so I usually have 2 paper towels folded that I handle my H2O2 grad cylinders with just because little drips happen.

Chemorg42 - 9-6-2020 at 07:25

Well, I guess I am somewhat paranoid, then.
I ware latex gloves for basically everything, though I sometimes remove them if I am just heating a relatively safe solvent like acetone, isopropanol, or some such.

Draeger - 9-6-2020 at 10:11

Quote: Originally posted by Chemorg42  
Well, I guess I am somewhat paranoid, then.
I ware latex gloves for basically everything, though I sometimes remove them if I am just heating a relatively safe solvent like acetone, isopropanol, or some such.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that latex gloves are not enough for most chemicals you'd wear gloves around.

Syn the Sizer - 9-6-2020 at 10:17

No it's not being over paranoid, it's being safe. In most industries gloves of some sort are mandatory. Whether cut resistant gloves when dealing with sharps, heavy work gloves when dealing with other stuff, nitrile for solvent uses. When I worked for Cat in my city, I was the main hose builder for Saskatchewan, other Cat stores in the province would send hoses to me for rebuild. I wore nitrile gloves under my kevlar cut resistant gloves. The kevlar gloves didn't prevent hydraulic fluid, diesel or whatever other stuff was used in those hoses, fertilizers of all sorts etc, so the nitrile stopped that.

In the refrigeration industry we always had to wear gloves really hot/cold pipes are not fun to touch with bare hands, as well, when turning wrenches you never know when it might slip and your hand smashes on something. A glove is a layer between you skin and contact point.

That is party an due to insurance. Even is your skills are good in the lab and you trust yourself not to get the heavy metal salt in your mouth. The lab you work in doesn't want to take that chance.

There are also applications where I always wear gloves.

Edit:

I do agree with Draeger Latex is more permeable than nitrile. do the vanilla test with a latex glove and a nitrile glove, see which one smell stronger.

[Edited on 9-6-2020 by Syn the Sizer]

Belowzero - 9-6-2020 at 11:18

Quote: Originally posted by Syn the Sizer  
No it's not being over paranoid, it's being safe. In most industries gloves of some sort are mandatory. Whether cut resistant gloves when dealing with sharps, heavy work gloves when dealing with other stuff, nitrile for solvent uses. When I worked for Cat in my city, I was the main hose builder for Saskatchewan, other Cat stores in the province would send hoses to me for rebuild. I wore nitrile gloves under my kevlar cut resistant gloves. The kevlar gloves didn't prevent hydraulic fluid, diesel or whatever other stuff was used in those hoses, fertilizers of all sorts etc, so the nitrile stopped that.

In the refrigeration industry we always had to wear gloves really hot/cold pipes are not fun to touch with bare hands, as well, when turning wrenches you never know when it might slip and your hand smashes on something. A glove is a layer between you skin and contact point.

That is party an due to insurance. Even is your skills are good in the lab and you trust yourself not to get the heavy metal salt in your mouth. The lab you work in doesn't want to take that chance.

There are also applications where I always wear gloves.

Edit:

I do agree with Draeger Latex is more permeable than nitrile. do the vanilla test with a latex glove and a nitrile glove, see which one smell stronger.

[Edited on 9-6-2020 by Syn the Sizer]



I agree with you that it is not being paranoid and when it comes to daily / regular exposure and risk management it is sensible.
Even with moderately harmful solvents for example , if one has to handle large amounts on a daily basis it can build up and introduce long term health effects which Should be taken into account.

Heck when I had this part time job cleaning industrial dust filters I wore a gasmask eventhough it wasnt offically required.
This is just common sense.

Since chemistry for me is a hobby I make a different risk calculation; is this exposure dangerous for my health? and is the risk/reward (or in this case hassle) worth the risk/effort?
Handeling substances that have no direct impact on my health and have a frequency that does not introduce long term effects are simply not worth the annoyance of taking all possible precautions into account.

Simply put, it's is a nuance towards; better safe than sorry.



[Edited on 9-6-2020 by Belowzero]

Chemorg42 - 9-6-2020 at 11:47

@Syn and @Draeger,
I am aware that latex is not the most robust type of glove I could be using, however, I do not at this time work with anything which is extremely dangerous (most hazardous chemicals 31.45% HCl and NaOH), also, I think of my gloves as more of a delay than a protection. If I get a chemical on my glove which could be concerning, I would quickly remove the glove, rather than viewing my glove as invulnerable to chemicals.

Syn the Sizer - 9-6-2020 at 14:08

Yes, many solvents I do wear gloves with. Most organic solvents are not good for you.

XeonTheMGPony - 9-6-2020 at 16:38

Quote: Originally posted by Chemorg42  
Quote: Originally posted by Morgan  
My dentist suggested diluting 3% H2O2 with water 50/50 as a mouthwash. I felt like I had throat cancer from the effect. Never again.


My grandfather swallows several drops of 30% H2O2 per day to "Clear his system." Normally, I think that if people want to indulge in pseudoscientific home remedy drivel, then nothing I say is likely to stop them, but seriously, 30% hydrogen peroxide?!, That just can't be good for a person (not to mention burn like heck.)
Has anyone else come across this self destructive "Health" practice?


they sell 4l jugs of 35% of "food grade" peroxide here at the hippy shop for that purpose, they mix it in water, that is by far better then the idiots that add bleach to it to make miracle moron water.

XeonTheMGPony - 9-6-2020 at 16:41

Quote: Originally posted by Syn the Sizer  
Quote: Originally posted by Chemorg42  

My grandfather swallows several drops of 30% H2O2 per day to "Clear his system." Normally, I think that if people want to indulge in pseudoscientific home remedy drivel, then nothing I say is likely to stop them, but seriously, 30% hydrogen peroxide?!, That just can't be good for a person (not to mention burn like heck.)
Has anyone else come across this self destructive "Health" practice?


I have heard it is sold in some health food stores here for that purpose. Though I get mine from a garden shop.
Quote: Originally posted by karlos³  
Yeah I was surprised the first times I worked with concentrated H2O2 at home, since I never experienced that at work.
Its ok though, I never found it hurts much, I guess I was lucky so far.
But acids, oh man, I've gotten once or thrice conc. H2SO4 in cuts at the hands.... never hydrogen peroxide though(luckily).


Ouch, I bet the H2SO4 in a cut would burn like hell.

[Edited on 9-6-2020 by Syn the Sizer]


Yes, yes it does! any acid does really but H2SO4 is obnoxious as it behaves like oil and just coats every thing.

Syn the Sizer - 10-6-2020 at 07:48

Quote: Originally posted by XeonTheMGPony  

Yes, yes it does! any acid does really but H2SO4 is obnoxious as it behaves like oil and just coats every thing.


Yes I agree, and nitric acid leaves annoying stains. But still none of the 3 "bench acids" as I have heard them called have cause near as much discomfort after prolonged (~30s) exposure as H2O2 even when washed right away.

Though on my dry skin HCl starts to itch and sting right away but that is to be expected.

Bedlasky - 12-6-2020 at 08:18

Quote: Originally posted by Syn the Sizer  
Quote: Originally posted by XeonTheMGPony  

Yes, yes it does! any acid does really but H2SO4 is obnoxious as it behaves like oil and just coats every thing.


Yes I agree, and nitric acid leaves annoying stains. But still none of the 3 "bench acids" as I have heard them called have cause near as much discomfort after prolonged (~30s) exposure as H2O2 even when washed right away.

Though on my dry skin HCl starts to itch and sting right away but that is to be expected.


It depends on concentration. When azeotropic HNO3 spills on my fingers, I often notice anything. But 99% HNO3 on fingers immediately burns like a hell.

Syn the Sizer - 12-6-2020 at 11:55

Good point, I have never dealt with 99% HNO3.

Chemorg42 - 12-6-2020 at 13:56

Would fuming nitric (small amount of water) be less or more hazardous than pure nitric (no water at all?)

Bedlasky - 12-6-2020 at 17:44

I never heard about 100% HNO3. White fuming nitric acid can exist in concentrations up to 99%, but it never be 100%. But it's less reactive than red fuming nitric acid which contain lots of NO2.

Syn the Sizer - 12-6-2020 at 18:05

Also doesn't nitric acid and most other acids react more when a small amount of water is present? So 99% white fuming acid is less reactive than 99% white fuming nitric acid that has been diluted slightly?

Chemorg42 - 12-6-2020 at 19:19

Both of you, yes, I was mistaken. I new I had read something about water and fuming nitric acid, but I couldn't remember what.
So my new question is, which is more corrosive, red or white fuming nitric acid?

Syn the Sizer - 12-6-2020 at 20:35

Quote: Originally posted by Chemorg42  
Both of you, yes, I was mistaken. I new I had read something about water and fuming nitric acid, but I couldn't remember what.
So my new question is, which is more corrosive, red or white fuming nitric acid?


I could not say for certain. But I believe red would be more corrosive due to the dissolved NO2(g).

[Edited on 13-6-2020 by Syn the Sizer]

Tellurium - 15-6-2020 at 07:04

Quote: Originally posted by Syn the Sizer  
Also doesn't nitric acid and most other acids react more when a small amount of water is present? So 99% white fuming acid is less reactive than 99% white fuming nitric acid that has been diluted slightly?

Well yes it doesn't attacks stuff that good when pure, because for example metals get a passivation layer.
But I think fuming nitric acid is much much worse on skin, because it is such an extremely strong oxidizer! I mean just look what happens with gloves when putting azeotropic or fuming nitric acid on them. The glove with the fuming nitric will start to burn violently and the glove with the azeotropic nitric acid doesn't ;)

Bedlasky - 15-6-2020 at 07:17

Chemorg42: As Syn the Sizer said, red fuming nitric acid is more corrosive fue to dissolved NO2.

Tellurium: I tried dissolve copper wire and molybdenum powder in white fuming nitric acid and they are attacked only little bit. There was some NO2 formation, but only small amount. WFNA passivated these metals. But when I added small amount of water, vigorous reaction with cloudes of NO2 took place.

Tellurium - 15-6-2020 at 07:35

Quote: Originally posted by Bedlasky  
Tellurium: I tried dissolve copper wire and molybdenum powder in white fuming nitric acid and they are attacked only little bit. There was some NO2 formation, but only small amount. WFNA passivated these metals. But when I added small amount of water, vigorous reaction with cloudes of NO2 took place.

Yes, thats exactly the passivation, that I'm talking about! This is caused by strong oxidizing properties, but I guess on skin exactly these oxidizing properties are the problem ;)

[Edited on 15-6-2020 by Tellurium]

Bedlasky - 15-6-2020 at 08:15

Yes, they are :D. As I said before, it burns like a hell.

RogueRose - 15-6-2020 at 17:46

A little tip for dealing with H2O2 burns is to use hot water on the burn and I press on it with my fingernail. It seems to reduce the pain a bit and it can make the white "burn mark" (which I think it just tiny O2 bubbles under the skin) disappear much faster, I think it's b/c it speeds up blood flow to the area. It also does reduce the pain level a bit and I've never really gotten the same effect with cold water. My experience is with 35% and I too think it has a much faster reaction to skin than any acids (at least room temp acids).

chornedsnorkack - 15-6-2020 at 21:24

Quote: Originally posted by Bedlasky  
I never heard about 100% HNO3. White fuming nitric acid can exist in concentrations up to 99%, but it never be 100%. But it's less reactive than red fuming nitric acid which contain lots of NO2.


100 % HNO3 is quite possible, but not very popular. You can quite easily have "over 100 %" HNO3, in the sense of N2O5 rather than N2O4 dissolved in HNO3. This type of "nitric acid oleum" is one popular nitrating agent - more stable than pure N2O5 or N2O5 dissolved in nonpolar solvents, and better nitrating agent than 99 % HNO3. Often, it also contains phosphoric acid when it is produced simply by partially dehydrating nitric acid with P4O10 and phosphoric acid not separated. But you can produce clean HNO3/N2O5 solution as well.

As for precisely 100 % HNO3, note that 100 % crystals are the freezing point maximum, somewhere about -41,6...41,8 %. On slow freezing of near 100 % nitric acid, the growth of crystals would reject any dissolved H2O, N2O4 or N2O5 impurities into the mother liquor. Solid nitric acid, unlike all liquid forms, is reasonably stable to spontaneous decomposition. Which means you could store nitric acid as a solid and thaw as needed.

Bedlasky - 16-6-2020 at 05:32

Quote: Originally posted by chornedsnorkack  
Quote: Originally posted by Bedlasky  
I never heard about 100% HNO3. White fuming nitric acid can exist in concentrations up to 99%, but it never be 100%. But it's less reactive than red fuming nitric acid which contain lots of NO2.


100 % HNO3 is quite possible, but not very popular. You can quite easily have "over 100 %" HNO3, in the sense of N2O5 rather than N2O4 dissolved in HNO3. This type of "nitric acid oleum" is one popular nitrating agent - more stable than pure N2O5 or N2O5 dissolved in nonpolar solvents, and better nitrating agent than 99 % HNO3. Often, it also contains phosphoric acid when it is produced simply by partially dehydrating nitric acid with P4O10 and phosphoric acid not separated. But you can produce clean HNO3/N2O5 solution as well.

As for precisely 100 % HNO3, note that 100 % crystals are the freezing point maximum, somewhere about -41,6...41,8 %. On slow freezing of near 100 % nitric acid, the growth of crystals would reject any dissolved H2O, N2O4 or N2O5 impurities into the mother liquor. Solid nitric acid, unlike all liquid forms, is reasonably stable to spontaneous decomposition. Which means you could store nitric acid as a solid and thaw as needed.


That's really interesting! I never heard about this HNO3/N2O5 mixtures.