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Forbidden Knowledge!

Chemorg42 - 22-6-2020 at 21:36

Even though I have no intention of performing the synthesis of any illegal substances, the process by which such substances are substances are synthesized fascinates me. Partly, I think it is the interesting chemistry, but it is also just the desire to possess forbidden knowledge, to know what "Big brother doesn't want you to know! :cool:

So, my question is this, can anyone recommend resources to help me understand major synthesis and extraction methods for illegal drugs and their precursors? Everything I could find online was either written for idiot junkies or idiot cops, nothing for chemists (besides "Popular science" drivel which contains no useful information at all.
Any help is appreciated.

karlos³ - 22-6-2020 at 21:54

I would say the two major sources where you can find such stuff actively being discussed are the russian hyperlab, which can be read with a translator engine in the browser, and the other is called vespiary, and is english speaking.
Both require you to register to their forum, to access it fully.

Besides that, the rhodium archive on erowid and the hive archive that is hosted there too.

Honestly, I don't know where to find those idiot junkie or idiot cop recipes you mention, can you in return tell me where to find things like this?

Also, I am surprised you say that thing about popular science drivel and it containing no useful information at all?
That sounds strange and I can't follow why you might say this?
I mean, scientific papers and there are widely accessible nowadays thanks to sci-hub, are the base from which everything else gets derived?
What could you just probably mean by that?

Syn the Sizer - 22-6-2020 at 22:43

I love going through PiHKAL and TiHKAL, they can be found on Erowid. They don't really explain too much about the synthesis mechanism or anything, just procedures for synthesis and some commentary. But I like to read the procedure and understand every step, look at the reagents and the product and all the intermediates too. See how each product is built.

Chemorg42 - 22-6-2020 at 23:29

Thanks for the info, both of you.
@karlos, the "Idiot cop" recipe I saw was a low quality youtube clip taken by someone at a LEO demonstration. The "Idiot junky" recipe was a pdf book hosted on Wikileaks called "The Secrets of Meth Amphetamine Production", or something like that, the author was some kind of anarchist preper type, and didn't seem reliable at all.
As to "Popular science drivel", I was referring specifically to articles on various websites claiming to be "Science" which are basically just lists of chemicals that "Prove" that someone is a meth cook. This is probably an unfair generalization, but I'm sure you've seen the kind of articles I am talking about.
More information still definitely welcome.

karlos³ - 22-6-2020 at 23:45

Oh you surely must mean secrets of methamphetamine manufactures, yes he is well known, and among the real people, knowns as an idiot just making money with the books, while barely having real knowledge of over 95% of his books.
Very dangerous stuff among them, and lots of it not working, yes.
He made sometimes for a short time the stuff, got convicted for it, and now for the rest of his life points at that little short episode to prove being an authority in the field, a funny guy, who if confronted by people with real knowledge, needs to resort to personal attacks and belittling the others because of his lack of arguments pretty early

And that book costs probably a few people more than the few bucks spent initially, this includes their homes, limbs, freedom, and health...

Yeah just check the boards, the guys there know their stuff pretty well, some things are documented with pictures too, and they know such bullshit like the book above when they see it.
You will probably recognise the one or other name from here though

But this should probably help to convince you of the reliability of those people I would assume?
Some don't use the exactly same name though... like, I'm spelled with "c" and without the "os³" for example on both the russian and english board

Refinery - 23-6-2020 at 00:04

I hate nothing more than those anarcho-type books that contain more babble on some absurd anti-society bull*t than actual information, AND that information is usually also more or less complete bogus.

I mean, you aren't seriously gonna get energetic reaction from rodent food, even if it contains nitrogen (as a protein, most likely), and if you're gonna make thermite, using a hand file and small batteries will just take you over a year to produce any useful quantity of material.

And most of the illegitimate sources cite only the procedures expecting you to have access to analytical grade DEA schedule I substances, or at least II which are basically the main culprit of the difficulty of synthesizing anything useful. If precursors were sold otc, drugs would be dirt cheap as well. I also get triggered when people state that even a child can cook meth - maybe, if you give them all the reagents for shake-and-bake, but I would not consider that any meaningful method because it produces highly impure and even toxic result with low yield, and the input cost factor would be something like 0.9 or sometimes over 1. It doesn't really matter if someone cooks from prescription meds. What matters is someone cooking from grocery store stuff.

Of course, it is likely that those who find a working route to make something useful, they won't tell about it to anyone because it's a sort of trade secret. And of course, in the end, prison does not have internet access. In countries like US making drugs gets mandatory life in no time.

unionised - 23-6-2020 at 04:12

It's just as well it's not forbidden.

A decade or so back I was asked (and paid) to do some work looking into what chemicals would be present in a "meth lab" (and other clandestine drug making plant.)

It would have been much more difficult if I hadn't been able to simply google the recipes and methods.

No sensible government rules out the possession of knowledge.
(The UK govt did, in the form of the psychoactive substances act- a truly stupid bit of legislation)
Plenty of governments focus on forbidding the use of that information for some purposes.

mackolol - 23-6-2020 at 05:13

For me chemistry is chemistry, you take it all or nothing. It includes drugs poisons bombs and tear gases too and that's not bad for me.
And if you haven't found even one good synthesis of illicit substances, then I don't know how are you searching for it.

Refinery - 23-6-2020 at 05:33

I don't like to classify any substance from the point of chemistry. Cyanide, hexogen and amphetamine are just chemical substances with a molar mass, and many substances have various uses as a feedstock.

B.D.E - 23-6-2020 at 07:20

For the most, this "forbidden chemistry" you're talking about is just mundane chemistry employed onto making illicit substances.

For me personally, the real thrill comes from seeing the creativity of those underground chemists, while trying (and succeeding) to overcome reagents legislations with more and more exotic procedures.

Chemorg42 - 23-6-2020 at 07:38

OK people, when I called this thread "Forbidden knowledge", I did it for dramatic effect, not to start an argument over if some chemistry should be "Forbidden." I agree with all of you that chemistry is chemistry, that is why I am interested in these things, after all.

dawt - 23-6-2020 at 07:39

Quote: Originally posted by karlos³

Some don't use the exactly same name though... like, I'm spelled with "c" and without the "os³" for example on both the russian and english board

I had my suspicions!

Quote:

For me personally, the real thrill comes from seeing the creativity of those underground chemists, while trying (and succeeding) to overcome reagents legislations with more and more exotic procedures.

Dito. I often head over to the rhodium archive when researching almost any sort of reaction, because I'm most likely to find something that's at least accessible to me, rather than some modern scholarly paper using unobtainable, unpronouncable catalysts and just analysing the products by GC rather than even attempting what's sure to be a difficult workup. Most of the modern research papers are absolutely worthless to the home chemist - clandestine forums are simply where it's at. Even though I lost interested in drugs a long time ago, I still think they're among the most useful resources for aspiring chemists, because you just won't find that depth of discussion anywhere else. Most academic researchers are working in some tiny niche and aren't able to discuss with one another all the minute details of their work. Clandestine chemistry is completely different, since lots of people have been working with just the same few compounds for decades.

[Edited on 2020-6-24 by dawt]

morganbw - 23-6-2020 at 11:00

Even Uncle Festers books are a point in our journey. A marker for different directions maybe, or perhaps merely an introduction point into the insanity.

Refinery - 23-6-2020 at 11:01

Funny how many papers go to extraordinary lengths to find UHMW complex catalysts that produce 1.5% higher yield. Then you later find that simply reacting the substance with common metal salt gets you almost as far. I know that 1.5% out of million tons fills a medium sized product tanker, but still.

But I have noted that the more you research and know about chemistry overall, the better you are at improvising and designing clandestine methods.

dawt - 23-6-2020 at 11:40

Quote: Originally posted by morganbw

Even Uncle Festers books are a point in our journey. A marker for different directions maybe, or perhaps merely an introduction point into the insanity.

Man, have you seen his video "Cookin' Crank with Uncle Fester"? A definite must-see, 3 hours of pure entertainment. I'm not gonna share it here, but ... You know who to ask.

Wheeeeeee \o/ Party time!

Unrelated observation: Huh, seems you can't post unicode emojis.

morganbw - 23-6-2020 at 13:13

Quote: Originally posted by dawt

Quote: Originally posted by morganbw

Even Uncle Festers books are a point in our journey. A marker for different directions maybe, or perhaps merely an introduction point into the insanity.

I actually have not but may soon. Thank you.

pantone159 - 23-6-2020 at 19:23

Quote: Originally posted by Chemorg42

The "Idiot junky" recipe was a pdf book hosted on Wikileaks called "The Secrets of Meth Amphetamine Production", or something like that, the author was some kind of anarchist preper type, and didn't seem reliable at all.

Hah. That book is by an 'Uncle Fester'. Once, in a moment of stupidity, which I thought was curiosity, I ordered one of his books. One of the first things in there, was a suggestion, to throw away all of your chemistry textbooks et al, since they might look suspicious. As soon as I read that, I came to my senses, took Uncle Fester's advice, and promptly threw out his book.

Chemorg42 - 23-6-2020 at 22:05

Quote: Originally posted by pantone159

Quote: Originally posted by Chemorg42

Lol, I was reading the book today (Secrets of Meth Amphetamine Manufacture, not production), and though some of it seemed like actual chemistry, it included some real gems, like the claim that obtaining glass distillation sets had become extremely difficult and that multi necked flasks had become a "Bitch" to get. His brilliant solution? make your own out of stainless steel!, and if you use chemicals which attack steel, easy, coat the inside with teflon paint. To heat large stainless steel containers, the good uncle suggests placing the container in a pile of charcoal, but make sure to pipe the acetone fumes away from this pile, they might catch on fire! Over all, a rather poor book, though interesting in its way.
Suggestions for more reputable sources still welcome.

B.D.E - 23-6-2020 at 23:49

Quote: Originally posted by dawt

...

+They always use those impractical 0.1mmol scale procedures with 3mL of solvent. But then after you scale this shit up a bit, you find out that you need about 40 metric tons of solvent just to make 10 grams of product.

(And I know it's sort of nitpicking, and that most of the times one could just reason the appropriate amount of solvent needed and get away with it.

But dammit, in rhodium you get those real life scale preparations with those beautiful reassuring gr/gr ratios that makes everything just so much easier.

Refinery - 24-6-2020 at 00:36

Rhodium style preparations have one downside, they usually have vague descriptions of reactions. The most extreme examples being like "mix 2.5kg of a with 7.5kg of b, and when it goes runaway, run away and wait for the reaction to subside and then collect what's left". There was just recently a topic where it was questioned why a reaction should be heated with acetone bath at 50C, when it is obvious that this is a recipe for disaster in an open vessel. This probably derives from second hand writing from an academic article where a mantled reactor was used with acetone temp buffer under closed reflux where it works very well capping temp to 55C max. Yeah, just pour some acetone in a kettle and boil it to heat your substance.

I like orgsyn style articles where stuff is measured in grams and molar ratios, and they have the notes section where they explain some things that may or will happen, or what are not very important. For example, the synthesis describe elaborate re-crystallization and purification steps, but in the notes it is told that a reasonable purity can be achieved by basically dumping it in water, rinsing, decanting and drying the crystals. A good synthesis emphasizes the important and un-important aspects and if there are good alternatives. One is solvent choice - sometimes it's obvious, but sometimes very specific solvents are used, which could be either very expensive or unobtainable - but later someone tells a just simple acetone works well. For those out of academic environment, practical choices matter a lot.

mackolol - 24-6-2020 at 03:41

Quote: Originally posted by Refinery

Rhodium style preparations have one downside, they usually have vague descriptions of reactions. The most extreme examples being like "mix 2.5kg of a with 7.5kg of b, and when it goes runaway, run away and wait for the reaction to subside and then collect what's left". There was just recently a topic where it was questioned why a reaction should be heated with acetone bath at 50C, when it is obvious that this is a recipe for disaster in an open vessel. This probably derives from second hand writing from an academic article where a mantled reactor was used with acetone temp buffer under closed reflux where it works very well capping temp to 55C max. Yeah, just pour some acetone in a kettle and boil it to heat your substance.

Oh yes, you have to have that thing in mind. For example, as I mentioned in topic about cyclopentanone MPV reduction, syntheses are sometimes totally not working. In Rhodium archive on erowid it is described as straightforward with good yields and without even any care (50% sulfuric acid in neutralisation of extremely delicate alcohol), but in reality cyclopentanone is very hard to reduce with almost every reducing agent, even clearly mentioned in literature about MPV reduction as the one which isn't good with the synthesis...

So the best is to have access to literature and read it prior to making any online synthesis.

Chemorg42 - 24-6-2020 at 09:29

Just took a look at the Rhodium archive. Wow! It looks like quite a resource, and not just for drug chemists.

B.D.E - 24-6-2020 at 11:19

Quote: Originally posted by Refinery

...

True. Although most of the times' the rhodium procedures provide the academic references on which they relied on, so one may check them himself.

But yes, orgsyn and prepchem procedures are usually more well written while still being practical and straightforward.

In any case, it's always a good idea (imo) to cross references/procedures before starting a reaction. It usually gives a better understanding about the mechanism of the reaction.

BromicAcid - 24-6-2020 at 14:34

I have a whole hand-written book of notes on forbidden chemistry knowledge. Started it a few decades ago when I learned about acetone peroxide. Every time I heard something novel that was unexpected/remarkably dangerous/easy to accomplish I added it to the book. Things like common hypergolic mixtures and easy dimethylmercury come to mind. There's a lot of information out there but never seen it aggregated together for a chemist's mind except in niche subjects.

Housane - 24-6-2020 at 15:40

Can you give examples of these common hypergolic mixtures BromicAcid?

Yttrium2 - 24-6-2020 at 16:01

I think there are two options

meth, through pseudoephedrine or various other routes (benzyl cyanide)

mda/mdma

and maybe PMA.

GHB, too- if you know what you are doing

I have spent/ waisted many years looking at synths and what is out there to find only very little that one can some up with without a good knowledge of chemistry, and access to precursors that are now restricted.

It seemed that a few years ago it was much easier to find information on APAP.

There was Totse and the wetdreams

Don't forget total synthesis by strike

BromicAcid - 24-6-2020 at 16:04

@Housane - From memory, ammonium nitrate/calcium hypochlorite was one. I had a whole list, I remember there were several more but what they were escapes me.

karlos³ - 24-6-2020 at 17:22

Quote: Originally posted by Yttrium2

I have spent/ waisted many years looking at synths and what is out there to find only very little that one can some up with without a good knowledge of chemistry, and access to precursors that are now restricted.

Come on, we know you are just lazy.
This counts for both knowledge and access to chemicals.
It just requires looking hard enough... and actually trying to comprehend what can be found

Its actually easy.
People are just stupid and insecure nowadays, also scared of chemicals.
They weren't in the 90s and earlier, and just look how many of them were active back then.

Yttrium2 - 24-6-2020 at 18:34

Quote: Originally posted by karlos³

Quote: Originally posted by Yttrium2

Come on, we know you are just lazy.
This counts for both knowledge and access to chemicals.
It just requires looking hard enough... and actually trying to comprehend what can be found

Its actually easy.
People are just stupid and insecure nowadays, also scared of chemicals.
They weren't in the 90s and earlier, and just look how many of them were active back then.

You are fucking with me,
what do you mean "look at how many of them were active back then"

Corrosive Joeseph - 24-6-2020 at 18:50

No, he is not fucking with you.... You actually wasted all those years.

/CJ

Yttrium2 - 24-6-2020 at 18:53

Quote: Originally posted by Corrosive Joeseph

No, he is not fucking with you.... You actually wasted all those years.

/CJ

yeah he is, and I am stating that I did waste all those years

There is nothing there for the amateur clandestine chemist anymore other than what I had listed.

I assume your not wanting to post whatever it is that is supposedly there because then everyone will want to jump in on the bandwagon. I take it further discourse of this mater is futile because of that.

[Edited on 6/25/2020 by Yttrium2]

[Edited on 6/25/2020 by Yttrium2]

I have conflicting views on 'forbidden chemistry'

Sulaiman - 24-6-2020 at 20:57

I would not like to see simple recipies available for stuff that clearly has only malicious purposes
- such as neurotoxin weapons etc.

OTOH I think that tried and true (illegal) drug preparation 'recipies' should be widely available
- to reduce the risk to consumers.
(I believe that the non-medicinal use of psychoactive substances predates human history, and will probably continue to the end of history)

I have browsed the 'cooks' websites quite often as there is a lot of generally useful information there,
and I was extremely impressed with various methods used to mitigate the unavailability of some precursors,
such in depth knowledge is awe inspiring.

I also wish that there is a lot more accurate information on traditional/herbal medicines,
compiled for easy reference.
(anyone have references ?)

Chemorg42 - 24-6-2020 at 22:09

Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman

I would not like to see simple recipes available for stuff that clearly has only malicious purposes
- such as neurotoxin weapons etc.

OTOH I think that tried and true (illegal) drug preparation 'recipes' should be widely available
- to reduce the risk to consumers.
(I believe that the non-medicinal use of psychoactive substances predates human history, and will probably continue to the end of history)

I have browsed the 'cooks' websites quite often as there is a lot of generally useful information there,
and I was extremely impressed with various methods used to mitigate the unavailability of some precursors,
such in depth knowledge is awe inspiring.

I also wish that there is a lot more accurate information on traditional/herbal medicines,
compiled for easy reference.
(anyone have references ?)

I also am conflicted. On one level, I see your point about "Recipes" which include no chemistry discussion and have no use other than malicious uses. However, on a deeper level, I am not willing to sacrifice my commitment to freedom of speech and expression. Restricting such recipes, no matter how distasteful they may be, sets a very dangerous precedent in my view.
BTW, if this line of discussion continues, maybe this thread should be split off into legal and societal issues.

karlos³ - 25-6-2020 at 06:43

Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman

I have browsed the 'cooks' websites quite often as there is a lot of generally useful information there,
and I was extremely impressed with various methods used to mitigate the unavailability of some precursors,
such in depth knowledge is awe inspiring.

I see that as a very nice compliment

Personally, I am doing what I can to spread the knowledge and to make it more easily available.
I was thanked by many over time for that, and whenever I hear that someone was successful because of that, I am confirmed on my reasons to do so, it makes me happy to have such a positive impact.
I just wish more would do this as well.

karlos³ - 25-6-2020 at 08:49

Quote: Originally posted by Yttrium2

There is nothing there for the amateur clandestine chemist anymore other than what I had listed.

I assume your not wanting to post whatever it is that is supposedly there because then everyone will want to jump in on the bandwagon. I take it further discourse of this mater is futile because of that.

There is so much out there and we already told in this thread where it is, just look at my first post in here.
Visit those sites, you will be blown away by the sheer number of what is possible for the amateur chemists.

And you know what, we would be so happy if everyone wants to jump on in the bandwagon too!
We would be very glad about such a development, to get more people into our niche of amateur chemistry, we actually already try to get more people to do this.

Now go and read those sites and you will be astonished about the informations.
You have to register on both of these forums I mentioned, as they don't have all that out in the open for the google crawler to see.

Yttrium2 - 25-6-2020 at 10:10

Quote: Originally posted by karlos³

Quote: Originally posted by Yttrium2

List something

karlos³ - 25-6-2020 at 11:59

As I said, you are inherently lazy.
Go visit the respective pages and see for yourself.

But I give you something: one of us made, completely OTC, a good portion of the essential amphetamines... TMA-2, DMMDA, MDMA/MDA, MMDA.
And this was only with things you can buy at a hardware store.

But something else, as for example I have made aminorex from styrene using only things that are available OTC.

Or cathinones, a huge number of their analogues can be made OTC, with some of them active in a range of single-digit milligrams.

Or DMT, which is 100% OTC(that is, if fuel cells are a thing where you live).

Ephedrine via yeast, likewise completely OTC(and I should know best, now that Org isn't around anymore).

And so on, I don't know why I even listed so many things but I guess I just wanted to prove you wrong...
But search for yourself on these pages, there are so many things more that can be found there.
Also look in the russian board, likewise the same.

Actually, if you are a clever amateur chemists, almost anything can be made OTC, it will just become very, VERY lengthy in some cases.
Dedicated amateurs still can, and some will, do it.
And they are a clever breed for sure, THEY can tackle down things in a way you wouldn't have thought of, that in turn make the respective thing again OTC.

morganbw - 25-6-2020 at 12:14

Please listen to @ karlos^3 as he does know what he speaks of.
It is actually even better as many ways to simple amphetamines and methamphetamines are discussed.
Unless someone wants to adopt you, you will have to do some research and study on your own.

[Edited on 6/25/2020 by morganbw]

Yttrium2 - 25-6-2020 at 12:20

Interesting

[Edited on 6/25/2020 by Yttrium2]

Yttrium2 - 25-6-2020 at 12:27

Quote: Originally posted by morganbw

Unless someone wants to adopt you, you will have to do some research and study on your own.

[Edited on 6/25/2020 by morganbw]

That is a whole nother' topic of its own. It probably deserves its own thread. The philosophical implifications of it are huge.

I think we best learn as a community when we work together, sharing information, each of us studying, whether adopted or un adopted orphans I do not know. Look at how far we have come as a civilization? It boggles me how knowledge is spread, is it passed down to the elect? Who get the right vitamins and minerals, and love to not be lazy

morganbw - 25-6-2020 at 12:29

You may also be relieved that the simple glassware you have could suffice with some of the synths outlined. Not all, reading and digesting is very important.

karlos³ - 25-6-2020 at 12:45

Thanks for the support morganbw

Yeah well, we came far as a civilization, but how many of those contributed, and how many on the contrary had simply been dragged onwards with the rest? The large majority belongs to the second category....

So, this may does work for civilizations, but not here, sorrry to disappoint you.
In chemistry everyone has to work and study for himself a lot and put even more effort into this.
The exchange with others is just a tiny little part of it, but for this one needs lots of knowledge that was learned for himself.
But to find, study and comprehend, and then be at some point able to discuss that, those things need to be done on your own solely.

In chemistry getting dragged on with the others to some point where one advances simply by sticking around, no this will just not work.
I have to say, that sounds almost like acquiring knowledge through osmosis

[Edited on 25-6-2020 by karlos³]

morganbw - 25-6-2020 at 13:00

And thus the mention of adoption. The info is there for all, but somehow we also need to digest this. This takes work(a lot of work for some of us, a little work for some others).

[Edited on 6/25/2020 by morganbw]

[Edited on 6/25/2020 by morganbw]

karlos³ - 25-6-2020 at 14:15

Yes, digestion of the found informations is the essential part of it.
Just sharing something that is thought to be of value will just result in 90% garbage being shared, as without achieving an understanding at first one can not know if anything really has the assumed value.

An example for this: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=155637...
Sharing, without having assessed its value first.

Swinfi2 - 26-6-2020 at 02:59

Forbidden knowledge for me is less about drug synth as (almost) the whole thread seems to be about.

Occasionally I find it interesting to see how chemical deterrents are made. Such as dibenzoxapine (CR/firegas) can be made from phenol derivatives and a microwave. Non lethal disabling lacrymator thats much more potent and less toxic than tear gas. But it's all an "offensive weapon" to the government here.

arkoma - 27-6-2020 at 02:21

knowledge can only be "forbidden" to those that refuse to seek.

Think I need to rig up some 50lb test line and a rapala minnow so I can go trolling too.

dextro88 - 28-6-2020 at 09:21

actualy i think there is too much disinformation in almost everywhere, and if one is the type of amateur chemist that dont know what exactly does it will result in garbage if even but thats another case,

one have to love the knowledge and what he does to improve himself, i think the proper path if anyone wanna know abaut these procedrures or the so called "forbiden kowledge" they are actualy a basic chemistry, is to get a degree set up a licensed laboratory and do his experiements in silence while improving and understading what he does,
Im actualy thinking of getting a degree and thinking between inorganic or analitic chemistry degree as it seems candidates are almost extinct in my country, and only one forensic laboratory in the whole country i think licensing a private one and starting to profiting from all these so called gangsters and saving them some time woud be a good idea, who knows.

And last words, the forbiden knowledge is the knowledge the criminals look out and the whole drug scene cant exists if there is no people who know what does and create some work down the waterfall for the drug agencies, and everyone thiking they can get of theyrs money is in the path to prison or even worse,if someone with skills wanna get high with frends on special ocasions with real pure drugs thats another topic, but 99% are using the knowledge the wrong way.

morganbw - 28-6-2020 at 09:56

@dextro88

I pretty much disagree with you. While making money is one aspect of it, I feel that there are many amatuar chemist who make something illegal for the challenge and because it is chemistry. Perhaps they might enjoy or potentially share with someone close.

Of course the criminal element has to have some knowledge but I think that the better chemist are among those I just described.

There is a lot of people who have no intent to profit but still enjoy their hobby even if they produce something not legal.

dextro88 - 28-6-2020 at 10:21

yeah you probably dont understand me, there is so small % of the skilled chemists who woud synthes drugs and dont profit from them and usage of these drugs can fastly change theyr thinking, there is so thin line between research and be a criminal.

[Edited on 28-6-2020 by dextro88]

Refinery - 28-6-2020 at 11:06

Drugs are literally made in soda bottles. Shake'n'bake, anyone? Yep, that's also drug manufacturing. And seeing how most of the stuff is of inferior quality only tells that they find the easiest and fastest way to churn up that gunk. There is certainly a more sophisticated production, but it tends to dissipate in the flow because everything that is sold ahead will get cut with something. Drug market has always been on demand, so the price is high and quality is low. You pay big buck for stuff that can have less than 10% of active ingredients, which would be absolutely out of the question on any other product on the legal market. Drug manufacturing is happening everywhere, from industrial scale OC funded ops to simple individuals making a little extra buck with their skills in very small tabletop labs. The market dynamics have changed in the past decade quite a bit due to deep web and crypto - you don't have to have any connections to get the product distributed - and it actually protects you from getting caught because there is no trail of evidence if you play it low key and don't get greedy.

Laws regarding to chemistry tend to be designed for various things, and they cross many reactions right on. EU ban on many consumer chemicals makes even many common tabletop chemistry experiments very difficult, so many amateurs just tend not to care, hence, becoming criminals. Basically any nitrating reactions are banned, and in the future they plan on cracking down on a lot more stuff like sulfuric acid.

[Edited on 28-6-2020 by Refinery]

karlos³ - 28-6-2020 at 11:33

Good and rare drugs made by skilled chemists are usually not intended for the market, most of these drugs are entirely unheard of in the black market even.
Maybe known by some drug nerds who are not chemists, but only in theory, they could never get their hands on stuff like that.
Why sell anything if you can have it instead, use it, and never have to worry about anything like getting problems with the law?
I leave these sorrows for the people who think they need to sell themselves out with that.

Cou - 28-6-2020 at 14:16

Quote: Originally posted by morganbw

Perhaps they might enjoy or potentially share with someone close.

If you make a personal batch of illegal drugs, keep it personal, do not share it with anyone. That is how you get caught.

Police are not omnipotent or magicians with x-ray vision, they have no way of knowing if someone is growing shrooms in their closet. Buying vermiculite and mason jars is not good enough evidence alone for a judge to sign a search warrant

that all changes once you show the drugs to anyone else. Distribution is how ppl get caught. The popo just doesn't want drugs being spread around to everyone in town.

The sad truth is, most friends and SOs would throw you under the bus if it got them a reduced jail sentence.

[Edited on 6-29-2020 by Cou]

SWIM - 28-6-2020 at 19:46

@Karlos: Ephedrine from yeast.
Read about something like that in an old industrial chem book, but never heard of anybody making it work at home.
Well done you.

@Yttrium2: Please don't make PMA unless it's just for the chemistry practice.
That stuff seems to have a pretty bad reputation, but the worst reports were a form called 'chicken yellow' , which, being yellow, had who knows what else in there.
Still its credited with a lot more death and damage than most party drugs.

@Cou: Do people really still grow mushrooms on media in mason jars?
Those elephant dung loving shrooms are finicky. (Cubensis?)

They need to be grown like a homunculus in a jar whereas Psilocybe Cyanescens has an aggressive mycelium that can resist most competitors (Molds, etc) and grow quite happily outdoors in a decent climate. No sterile media, no autoclaving.

On the San Francisco bay peninsula I see cyanescens on lawns, under bushes, they even come up in potted plants.
But mostly on wood chips.

Warning: they also look like galerina autumnalis, so screwing up the collection means a slow painful death or a liver transplant.

Oh well, same danger if you make pasta with amanita calypratoderma and those are not magic, just magically delicious.