Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Does methanol smell like anything to you?

Does methanol smell like anything to you?

p4rtridg3 - 12-11-2020 at 07:25

Hello all,
I was distilling HEET today when I got suspicious about my ability to smell methanol. I've always heard it has an alcoholic odor, but when a joint popped, I smelled nothing. When I transferred the product to a glass bottle, nothing. I asked my dad to smell the stopper to a flask containing it, and although he said it had a strong smell, I could not detect anything at all.

Thinking back to the many times I've used it in the lab, I don't remember methanol having any kind of distinctive odor.

I can smell everything else just fine. I tested my nose against ethanol, as well as various items from my fridge. Everything seems normal.

Thoughts? Two people have told me so far that they've never noticed a smell, while everyone else swears it is quite distinct. Is this normal? Abnormal? A bad sign? (overexposure maybe?) I am a little concerned that since I can't seem to smell it, a toxic amount could build up and I'd never know.

I would very much appreciate your input.

ArbuzToWoda - 12-11-2020 at 07:29

To me 96-98% methanol smelled just a little bit more intensely than ethanol. I suppose it's due to it's volatality. Maybe you just have COVID! I actually found out I was sick when I sticked my nose into a bottle with ammonia solution and didn't smell much.

Methanol

MadHatter - 12-11-2020 at 07:48

I don't know exactly what MeOH smells
like but I can tell you what it resembles.
To me it smells almost like blackberry
brandy. Guess my nose is a little more
sensitive.

Tsjerk - 12-11-2020 at 07:49

I can't smell methanol, I wouldn't even be able to differentiate water and methanol by smell.

EthidiumBromide - 12-11-2020 at 08:06

To me the smell of methanol is much fainter than ethanol. I personally don't pick up any odor when I work with it. I carefully smelled it straight from the bottle just now (I didn't inhale it profusely, relax) and I mostly got just the generic burning sensation at the bottom of my nostrils, which all volatile alcohols give. Ethanol and isopropanol by contrast have a much sharper smell that I can instantly notice.

Fery - 12-11-2020 at 08:20

there is very big variability in smelling compounds among people, hundreds of genes involved and hundreds of receptors...
isovaleric acid is typical example (sweat, unwashed socks etc) for which 6% of people do not scent it at all
androstenone we tried at university which 2/3 of us scented and 1/3 didn't
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=15...
https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/gb-...

Fyndium - 12-11-2020 at 08:51

Ethanol and methanol have much similarities but they are a tad different. I don't remember smelling anything neither when I handled methanol, albeit being few hundred mL at most, but I have got used to that ethanol has pretty mild odor, and it can also be that people handle methanol more carefully because of it's higher toxicity. IPA has very disagreeable pungent odor, a profile like acetone but less sweet and more sharp and pungent.

teodor - 12-11-2020 at 10:09

Thank you for letting me know, @p4rtridg3. I also never felt any smell working with methanol but I also never tried knowing it is poisonous. And I thought it has the same kind of smell as ethanol. After your question I did several sniff of the stopper and I didn't feel ANY alcoholic smell, just a tint of ethereal smell but not when the stopper close to my nose. When it is close to my nose I don't feel anything. Ethanol has a strong smell for me and not the ethereal one as well as other alcohols with 2-5 carbons.

[Edited on 12-11-2020 by teodor]

mackolol - 12-11-2020 at 11:26

Yeah methanol has much weaker smell than ethanol. I think it's quite understandable that, the shorter the chain, the weaker the smell is (of course to some point).
isopropanol > ethanol > methanol, by smell.
For me it smells like more "mild" ethanol although I have never taken a lungfull, because I don't want to unnecessarily expose myself to methanol.

Quote: Originally posted by ArbuzToWoda

To me 96-98% methanol smelled just a little bit more intensely than ethanol. I suppose it's due to it's volatality. Maybe you just have COVID! I actually found out I was sick when I sticked my nose into a bottle with ammonia solution and didn't smell much.

Well that's interesting, I would never say that methanol has stronger smell than ethanol.

WGTR - 12-11-2020 at 12:28

Methanol has no odor to me, but I can smell methanal quite well. It has a slightly sweet odor to it. Ethanol is the same way. If it’s a fresh bottle of pure ethanol it has no odor to me. If it’s an older bottle that has some air in it then it has a sweet smell of dilute ethanal.

Maybe some of the variability in odor has to do with different people smelling different alcohol samples at various stages of partial oxidation?

Tsjerk - 12-11-2020 at 13:58

Very pure freshly opened ethanol has quite a strong smell to me, alcoholic and sweet. IPA is a bit more sharp, more solvent like. As said methanol doesn't have any odor to me, the same bottle smells really bad to my girlfriend, she has the same experience at work. She thinks it smells stronger than ethanol.

Methanal almost makes me puke, it is horrible in my opinion. So I don't think these differences in perception are because of differences in sample.

Tetramethyl acetyloctahydronaphtalene smells terrible to me, while it is commonly perceived as pleasant, as it is used in air fresheners. I think it smells like a wet barn animal that has been standing inside all winter. I once found this is also something genetic found in 0.1% of the population.

WGTR - 12-11-2020 at 14:13

I'm not sure if I should be happy that solvents don't smell very strongly to me, or be worried that they don't. I clean up the lab benches with vinegar sometimes and other lab-mates find the odor to be completely intolerable and have to leave the room. I can smell it, but it's a fairly pleasant odor to me.

I do know what wet, stale, barn animals smell like, and I'll have to say that's one thing I can smell pretty well and it's nasty...

Fyndium - 12-11-2020 at 14:18

I think the easier you smell stuff the better. You can quickly notice if something's up - or wrong. I have faced the issue with my neighbors who have complained once about "smell" and I took that very seriously. I always keep my workspace in negative pressure to keep any smells inside.

Acetic acid smells very sharp. Formic acid is intolerable to me.

karlos³ - 12-11-2020 at 15:07

MeOH smells actually only really to me, when hot.
And even then just like a much weaker ethanolic smell, with much less individually noticeable odour notes.
Almost ethereal, I mean like aether, not R-O-R.

Cold? Maybe once in a while I can get a tiny hint from it, but normally I don't notice anything.
But it has a smell, I just have to get close to notice.

But how is it for you guys with pure DMF or DMSO?
They have to me a just barely noticeable smell of their own as well.
Everyone just thinks of dimethylamine or dimethylsulfide with these two, but in their pure state they have a likewise very faint smell as MeOH does too.

BromicAcid - 12-11-2020 at 15:24

MeOH smells sweet to me, EtOH just smells like burning solvent.

Fulmen - 12-11-2020 at 23:57

I've always found that MeOH (pure stuff like P.A) has a faint earthy or mold-like smell. it doesn't have the same "punch" as EtOH has though, kinda peculiar considering the similarities...

teodor - 13-11-2020 at 03:13

I have realised that I can feel methanol only once, when I start to sniff. The smell is quite different from ethanol. It could be strong if the quantity is high. But after the first feeling of smell it disappears. Like people say the same about H2S. So, probably methanol turn-offs my receptors very quickly doesn't matter how strong the smell is, I just can notice it only in the beginning.

Amos - 13-11-2020 at 05:44

To me it has no odor unless I bury my nose in the vapor, in which case it has a sort of "clean" smell not far removed from ethanol, and a slight tingly sensation in the nose.

[Edited on 11-13-2020 by Amos]

unionised - 13-11-2020 at 06:16

To me, methanol has a weak odour, likethat of ethanol, but not nearly as strong, and definitely distinct.

On a related note, I seem to be "smell blind" to acetonitrile. My colleagues would complain about the smell when i was sloshing it round in the lab.
On the other hand, I can smell the related chemical, hydrogen cyanide at fairly low concentrations.
Does anyone else have experience of these two chemicals?
(Don't go sniffing cyanide just to answer an online question, but if you happen to know...)

teodor - 13-11-2020 at 06:34

I can smell cyanide ion in very low concentrations, like if few ml of ferric/ferrous hexacyannoferrate solution goes to slightly acidic pH and I am at the same room.

[Edited on 13-11-2020 by teodor]

woelen - 13-11-2020 at 07:02

Methanol only has a faint smell to me, while ethanol has a distinct clear smell to me, but still not very strong. Higher alcohols are much more smelly to me.

I believe that I cannot smell HCN. I have done some experimenting with HCN and even wafted some towards my face, but I did not smell anything, while a similar waft of Cl2 or SO2 leads to a strong overpowering experience of smell.

CH3CN has an etherial not unpleasant smell to me, not particularly strong or overpowering.

[Edited on 13-11-20 by woelen]

karlos³ - 13-11-2020 at 08:28

Quote: Originally posted by unionised

On a related note, I seem to be "smell blind" to acetonitrile. My colleagues would complain about the smell when i was sloshing it round in the lab.
On the other hand, I can smell the related chemical, hydrogen cyanide at fairly low concentrations.
Does anyone else have experience of these two chemicals?
(Don't go sniffing cyanide just to answer an online question, but if you happen to know...)

What, how could anyone complain about the smell of acetonitrile? It barely smells at all, even refluxing!

Oh.... wait...

Guess I share that ability, or lack thereof, because I never had any issues with acetonitrile and smell, I actually like it because it is has so little smell.
At work I never heard complains about it either.
Maybe its some sort of chemotype in humans, and you just happen to have some who are of a different one?

As for HCN, my experience with it is limited but I can smell it too.
I couldn't characterise it though from that little bit(and years ago), just a sharp and pungent smell which I would liken to formic acid maybe(only maybe).
But I haven't experienced anything else, only noticed the smell, a bit of it, and then backed off the apparatus outside.
And then haven't smelled it anymore, if it was from its effects, or from gaining some distance, I can't tell.
No idea if I am particularly sensitive to it.

But I can confirm that acetonitrile apparently has only very little smell to me, I am actually really surprised about your statement of colleagues who complain about it

I can't even describe the smell of MeCN very well, but I would agree on woelen's description.
Smell blind, well, not really(and I don't think you can't smell it at all either), but apparently we have similar working smell receptors.
Unlike woelen it seems?

That is really interesting, I wouldn't have thought that the discrepancies in the perception of solvent smells could be that much.

Back on the topic, I used a few ml's of MeOH today, to spread out a drying substance, or rather, while evaporating a solution of, to prevent the forming of a evaporation hindering skin.
I probably breathed some more in while it evaporated, and thinking of this thread was trying to characterise its smell, and its just a few hours ago and I barely can take ahold of it now.
Thats what I meant with aether like(not ether), its just not very strong smelling at all.

Steam - 13-11-2020 at 13:56

To myself, MeOH has a odor similar to EtOH, but MeOH is more smooth. There are some "sweet" smells there as well, but the smell is more floral than it is "sugar-ish". I think a good analogy would be MeOH compares to EtOH as EtOH compares to iPrOH.

From experience, I know I cannot smell HCN.

I do not like the smell of MeCN very much. It has a sickly, chemical smell which makes me somewhat nauseous to be around.

One of my favorite solvent smells (if that is such a thing) are the ethers and acetone (Don't read into that too much).

One of the most eye-opening nose-blind situations that I have been in was when I was working with chlorinated phenol compounds. I can definitely smell them (a smell reminiscent of benzyl chloride and creosote) but after 2 weeks of working with the compounds one my collages got back from vacation and came over to my lab to see how my reactions were going. I could see the familiar cringe of smelling poly-chlorinated phenols; however, what was concerning was that the reactants were in the fumehood and I could hardly detect any ClPhOH. It was at that point I didcided that I didn't want to work with those compounds anymore.

Chemetix - 13-11-2020 at 23:29

"Excuse me Miss...Does this handkerchief smell like chloroform?"

artemov - 14-11-2020 at 00:41

I have not worked with methanol cos I'm scared of it ... is it very poisonous via inhalation and skin contact?

I hate the smell of MEK and metabisufite, esp the later, it smells so different from burning sulfur ...

[Edited on 14-11-2020 by artemov]

Tsjerk - 14-11-2020 at 02:03

Better don't drink grape brandy if you are scared of methanol.

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Kobold vor NH4 - 14-11-2020 at 03:35

Ethanol has a mild smell to me, however isopropanol smells like acetone, but less full-blown, with a light, airy feeling in my nose. Acetone just blazes through my nose. Ethyl acetate has a strong, sickeningly sweet odor which can easily give me a headache very quickly, same thing for xylene.
Ammonia, while very strong and pungent, if there is not lots of it, I don't really mind the smell, Same for chlorine.
Bromine smells like chlorine, but more nasty. I have not worked with methanol because I still have not found any OTC source for it, so I don't know what it might smell like, but Ima guessing it would be milder than ethanol.

artemov - 14-11-2020 at 04:02

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk

Better don't drink grape brandy if you are scared of methanol.

I don't drink alcohol.

Fery - 14-11-2020 at 08:13

Tsjerk grape brandy is quite OK. Other fruit brandies have somewhat higher methanol content which originates from pectins and column distillation cannot be used because it would remove also their typical scent. But no need to be too much scared of methanol. Intoxication with pure methanol is treated by offering a patient to drink ethanol. The methanol itself is not so much poisonous as is its metabolite formaldehyde. Giving ethanol to patient intoxicated with methanol causes methanol to compete with ethanol in liver alcohol dehydrogenase thus significantly slowing down the formation of toxic formaldehyde. If a fruit brandy contains 2g of methanol in 1 L it also contains 300-400 g of ethanol. There was an accident in the pharma company where my father was working where some workers used to secretly drink pharmaceutical ethanol (after diluting with water) but once a group of them mistakenly drank methanol and most of them died as they realized too late that something wrong. They were certainly skilled enough in ethanol scent after drinking it for years, but the disaster happened... Moreover in my country there was a big criminal case few years ago when greedy manufacturers of alcoholic beverages ("Likerka Drak" etc) made bottles where methanol : ethanol ratio was 1:1 and a lot of people died (48 deaths and > 100 with severe persistent health damages).
https://www.e15.cz/domaci/metanolova-kauza-znovu-oziva-soud-...
https://domaci.ihned.cz/c1-66173960-soud-zprisnil-tresty-v-k...
If no methanol in a brandy claimed as made from fruit then it is a scam and such "brandy" is made from rectified alcohol with artificial aroma and not from fermented fruits. High pure vodka is without methanol as it is distilled through efficient column.
If no radioactive carbon C14 present then the ethanol is made from crude oil / natural gas instead of sugars photosythesized by plants that year.

karlos³ - 14-11-2020 at 12:38

Well they were drinking the MeOH.
We're only discussing the smell, who knows how the overall scent, and aroma is affected when it comes into the pharyngal area, where the full taste and smell can be perceived.
Maybe it is much closer to EtOH in that case and harder to distinguish?
Has anyone of you ever tasted methanol, I would think probably not?

ArbuzToWoda - 14-11-2020 at 12:39

Give me a second...
Ok, 1ml diluted with a couple mls of water tasted like you'd expect it to. Burning sensation, I'd say a little less "spicy" than ethanol. Had a floral/fruity feel as an aftertaste too. Didn't swallow it, obviously. Luckily only doses of more than 30ml (10-15 according to other sources) are beginning to get dangerous, and that's swallowed.

[Edited on 14-11-2020 by ArbuzToWoda]

[Edited on 14-11-2020 by ArbuzToWoda]

karlos³ - 14-11-2020 at 14:03

Haha very good! I actually thought about that too, and wondered if 3 beers are enough to compete against a few drops diluted in 10-20 milliliters of water.
Very much into the spirit of earlier chemists, I like that commitment

I would assume that a certain quantity also has a numbing effect too which makes the differentiation even less simple.

Sulaiman - 15-11-2020 at 12:03

My sense of smell is not as good as it once was - probably age and smoking
I can't smell methanol but I can smell ethanol, ipa etc.

unionised - 15-11-2020 at 13:13

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk

Better don't drink grape brandy if you are scared of methanol.

The real message from that paper is that plum brandy has a lot more methanol than grape brandy, but it's still well below 1%.

Fery - 17-11-2020 at 22:29

unionised - and you drink that small amount together with its antidote... but who knows what about long term negative effects (hard to see them due the heath damage caused by so much of ethanol)

Dr. Who - 24-11-2020 at 08:39

I can't really smell methanol. To me, it smells a teeny bit like sulphur but I think my stock is just contaminated. Were I given a glass of water and one of methanol I wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

itsallgoodjames - 27-11-2020 at 13:15

I find methanol has a smell similar in strength to ethanol, however both are much less strong than isopropanol. I find isopropanol to have a pleasant odour. Methanol and ethanol have quite similar smells, although methanol is more fruity I guess, smells are hard to describe. Smelling both methanol and ethanol, there's a subtle but distinct burning sensation. Isopropanol doesn't have that. Acetone has quite a pleasant odour, similar but definitely different from isopropanol.

foreign maple - 13-12-2020 at 17:53

I cant smell MeOH either. although it does burn my nose when I do smell it. similar in the way that IPA or EtOH does. i can smell other types of alcohol but just not MeOH.

foreign maple - 13-12-2020 at 17:56

Quote: Originally posted by unionised

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk

Better don't drink grape brandy if you are scared of methanol.

The real message from that paper is that plum brandy has a lot more methanol than grape brandy, but it's still well below 1%.

I mean anything with a lot of pectin will result in MeOH so I guess don't drink unripe apple brandy?

Fyndium - 25-1-2021 at 07:53

Just handled methanol for solvent with NaOH. As it heats, it smells like formaldehyde to me. Put a suction duct directly over it the moment I smelt it.

njl - 25-1-2021 at 08:37

I always buy klean strip denatured fuel alcohol as a source of methanol/ethanol. This always smells extremely fruity/sweet. I have smelled pure methanol, aqueous methanol, methanol as it was distilling, methanol straight from the can, and it always smells different. I think my sense of smell is ruined for the time being.

UC235 - 25-1-2021 at 15:01

Quote: Originally posted by njl

I always buy klean strip denatured fuel alcohol as a source of methanol/ethanol. This always smells extremely fruity/sweet. I have smelled pure methanol, aqueous methanol, methanol as it was distilling, methanol straight from the can, and it always smells different. I think my sense of smell is ruined for the time being.

That stuff also contains methyl isobutyl ketone.

Not to mention traces of acetaldehyde from oxidation may be strongly contributing to a fruity smell

dicyanin - 27-1-2021 at 02:06

Quote: Originally posted by p4rtridg3

Thinking back to the many times I've used it in the lab, I don't remember methanol having any kind of distinctive odor.

We can buy methanol of technical purity in hardware stores here as degreaser for crystalware. It definately has an alcoholic smell, but it is much more faint than ethanol or isopropanol. But yes it does have a signature smell.

It is toxic, but not that toxic, meaning you need to drink it to go blind or lame permanently. Breathing some fumes isn't healthy but it won't affect you that bad. Still, avoid such a situation. Interestingly, the only antidote for methanol poisoning is ethanol. The enzyme that converts methanol to formaldehyde and formic acid, the actual poisons, has a preference to ethanol over methanol. But the conversion rate of ethanol to acetaldehyde is faster, so in practice this means that they have to keep you drunk for 4 days in the hospital when you check in with methanol poisoning.

[Edited on 27-1-2021 by dicyanin]

dicyanin - 27-1-2021 at 02:28

Quote: Originally posted by Fery

there is very big variability in smelling compounds among people, hundreds of genes involved and hundreds of receptors...
isovaleric acid is typical example (sweat, unwashed socks etc) for which 6% of people do not scent it at all
androstenone we tried at university which 2/3 of us scented and 1/3 didn't
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=15...
https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/gb-...

If I recall correctly, 1/3th of people aren't able to smell HCN. I tested myself by carefully smelling (indirectly, wafting with my hands) an old dilute aqueous cyanide solution (a basic solution of zinc cyanide) that had been collecting dust in the poisons shelf of my old school lab for many years. I definitely smelled it, an acrid marsipan like odor.

[Edited on 27-1-2021 by dicyanin]

Fyndium - 27-1-2021 at 02:31

How much precautions do you take when handling methanol, compared to other relatively safe liquids like ethanol? I'd think not evaporating or boiling any on open vessels at least indoors, and using gloves to avoid transdermal exposure?

PS I'm certain the smell I detected was due to the stuff I was dissolving, not the methanol itself. I wasn't able to detect any noticeable odor except "mildly alcoholish" when carefully whiffing it alone. The stuff stench made it resemble formaldehyde, good to exhaust it anyway because it smells revolting.

dicyanin - 27-1-2021 at 02:42

Quote: Originally posted by karlos³

But how is it for you guys with pure DMF or DMSO?
They have to me a just barely noticeable smell of their own as well.

DMF has a very faint smell. DMSO smells like rotten broccoli to me, I don't like it. I prefer DMF if I can, when a dipolar aprotic solvent is needed.

dicyanin - 27-1-2021 at 02:48

Quote: Originally posted by Fyndium

How much precautions do you take when handling methanol, compared to other relatively safe liquids like ethanol? I'd think not evaporating or boiling any on open vessels at least indoors, and using gloves to avoid transdermal exposure?

Yes, gloves are even overkill, but definitely do not boil away in an open vessel indoors. Use distillation apparatus, don't be lazy. Or go outside.

Quote: Originally posted by Fyndium

PS I'm certain the smell I detected was due to the stuff I was dissolving, not the methanol itself. I wasn't able to detect any noticeable odor except "mildly alcoholish" when carefully whiffing it alone. The stuff stench made it resemble formaldehyde, good to exhaust it anyway because it smells revolting.

Formaldehyde smells very different to my nose, very overpowering nasty smell that makes you immediately turn away. With methanol is just faintly alcoholic (but with a distinguishable aftertone to me).

[Edited on 27-1-2021 by dicyanin]

dicyanin - 27-1-2021 at 02:51

You're not going to absorb a toxic dose of methanol transdermally from an accidental spill on your hands. If you don't bathe in it you should be fine, but anyway, wearing gloves and glasses is a generally a good thing while doing chemistry.

dicyanin - 27-1-2021 at 02:59

Quote: Originally posted by Fery

Tsjerk grape brandy is quite OK. Other fruit brandies have somewhat higher methanol content which originates from pectins and column distillation cannot be used because it would remove also their typical scent.

Actually I've read once somewhere that cheapo brand orange juice, the kind made from concentrate, can for this reason (pectins) contain small amounts of methanol, even up to 2% in some cases.

dicyanin - 27-1-2021 at 03:04

Quote: Originally posted by karlos³

Haha very good! I actually thought about that too, and wondered if 3 beers are enough to compete against a few drops diluted in 10-20 milliliters of water.
Very much into the spirit of earlier chemists, I like that commitment

In case of doubt, you have to drink beer all day long for 3-4 subsequent days, to ensure that the alcohol dehydrogenase enzymes in your blood are saturated with ethanol all the time methanol could be present in your body. Consider it a health emergency

Fyndium - 27-1-2021 at 03:28

Even being drunk for one day feels terrible so I'd rather avoid exposure to methanol than getting morbidly wasted in a hospital for 4 straight days.

FrenchChemist - 27-1-2021 at 21:50

Methanol smells like "very, very weak ethanol" to me.
The difference between the smell of methanol and for example isopropanol and higher alcohols - is huge.
It also depends a lot on the degree of purity and origin.
I have always been respectful of this substance as it can cause blindness.
This is one of the last things I want.