Sciencemadness Discussion Board - I need help finding the very bane of roaches existence...

I need help finding the very bane of roaches existence...

TheNerdyFarmer - 9-12-2020 at 04:11

Hey guys. Been a long time since I’ve been here. A lot has been happening in the development that is my life.
However... I am back in search of help and you guys expertise on a most important matter...

I recently moved into a house only to find that there are wood roaches in it. Naturally this I find this somewhat disturbing. My roommate have been trying all sorts of stuff to try to kill and or repel them. Despite these valiant efforts, the roach’s existence has yet to cease.

Therefore I think it is time I begin using my imagination and taking it upon myself to eradicate these little bastards.

So where you guys come in is the expertise part. I have a fair knowledge of chemicals and how they work with each other... but other than your standard borate or boric acid bug killers, I’m at a loss as to what I should use. It just has to be safe for us humans. Which is quite the task I know.

And so my fellow home chemists and mad scientists I need you to be as creative as possible on this one. If a synthesis is required, then no problem. I will do anything haha. These little bastards must all die and/or go very far away. There are some amazing minds here, so I look forward to see what you ladies and gentleman come up with.

By the way, I will also be doing my own research and posting it here, I think this could be a very useful discussion for more than just myself.

And so with that, run loose, any efforts towards this dilemma will be greatly appreciated. I can’t wait to see what I hear when a home chemists unlocks their inner exterminator!

artemov - 9-12-2020 at 04:27

A very very thin layer of boric acid powder where they frequent?

Tsjerk - 9-12-2020 at 07:17

If you have some halo-benzene and chloral (hydrate) you could make DDT.

Link

[Edited on 9-12-2020 by Tsjerk]

itsallgoodjames - 9-12-2020 at 07:59

Nitrogen triiodide. Explode the little buggers

In all seriousness, boric acid or DDT would probably work. I'm interested to see what other people will suggest, this thread could get quite interesting.

WGTR - 9-12-2020 at 08:23

What do wood roaches like to eat? What type of environment do they like living in? Is there a certain humidity level that they like, or a certain temperature? Try doing the opposite of all that.

I got rid of scorpions just by keeping the house clean and keeping it below 70 degrees. Yeah, I don’t like a cold house, but scorpions don’t either...

mayko - 9-12-2020 at 08:27

I've had good results with diatomaceous earth. I also use a spray bottle of rubbing alcohol and a lighter if I can sneak up on them; you can douse a surface with burning alcohol pretty easily and then blow it out. It doesn't necessarily kill them, but it singes their legs and wings such that they're immobilized and you can deal with them.... mechanically. The one really bad roach problem I had was ultimately dealt with only by aggressively attacking their habitats, which meant taking the panels off appliances and cleaning the kitchen top to bottom every week. Those were german roaches though.

I've also tried the flamethrower approach on mosquito swarms in the woods (you need a blowtorch to keep it going though, a lighter flame is too fragile). I've noticed that if you see a mosquito on you, you can bring a lighter flame down on it from above and it usually won't notice. I think that trying to swat them seems to create a bow wave that pushes them out of the way, but the draft of the flame seems to suck them in if anything. Again, usually doesn't kill them, but those li'l wings are gone in an instant.

Fyndium - 9-12-2020 at 09:15

Quote: Originally posted by itsallgoodjames

Nitrogen triiodide. Explode the little buggers

I was thinking of chlorine trifluoride. Whatever it doesn't explode or burn on contact, will poison it. Place it on a clean quartz plate and wait.. :cool:

itsallgoodjames - 9-12-2020 at 10:24

Quote: Originally posted by Fyndium

Quote: Originally posted by itsallgoodjames

Nitrogen triiodide. Explode the little buggers

I was thinking of chlorine trifluoride. Whatever it doesn't explode or burn on contact, will poison it. Place it on a clean quartz plate and wait.. :cool:

From the Wikipedia page:

Quote:

The compound reacts with water-based suppressors, and oxidizes even in the absence of atmospheric oxygen, rendering traditional atmosphere-displacement suppressors such as CO2 and halon ineffective. It ignites glass on contact.

It's hypergolic with glass, and I presume the quartz dish in question

Fyndium - 9-12-2020 at 10:45

According to the same page:

"Pure ClF3 is stable to 180 °C in quartz vessels".

I've heard, though, also, that it burns glass and is only storable in passive metal containers.

teodor - 9-12-2020 at 10:56

Quote: Originally posted by Fyndium

According to the same page:

"Pure ClF3 is stable to 180 °C in quartz vessels".

I've heard, though, also, that it burns glass and is only storable in passive metal containers.

Do you mean this for battle with cockroaches?

itsallgoodjames - 9-12-2020 at 10:58

Ah, I was under the impression that quartz generally had simelar chemical resistance to glass. Though I imagine a roach/fluorine fire would burn a lot hotter than 180°.

ChemichaelRXN - 9-12-2020 at 10:58

You will have to experiment. You’d probably need like ten of these around the house in cabinets and in the walls. Basically I was thinking of a covered rectangle sticky pad with an opening on either end and a low wattage LED and maybe food in the centre.

I was thinking about a lightly heated rectangle sticky pad that possibly releases a light amount of CO2 to mimic the body to kill bed bugs too.

Again, you’d need to experiment, but there could be your new product to passively kill those invasive critters.

B(a)P - 9-12-2020 at 11:03

One of the problems with the eradication of roaches is that even if they are killed, let's say by poisoning, the body of the female will still release a viable egg sack. You need an option that either obliterates them immediately or captures them in way that if an egg sack is produced it is also captured and destroyed. I can't think of an option right now that overcomes this, but it is a design factor that you will need to consider. I will give it some more thought though. Which species are we talking here?

itsallgoodjames - 9-12-2020 at 11:12

Well that makes the task harder. Will heavy metal salts transfer to the eggs? If so, than that could be an option.

karlos³ - 9-12-2020 at 12:46

I second Tsjerk's wonderful DDT(analogue) synthesis as a measure.

teodor - 9-12-2020 at 13:12

Quote: Originally posted by karlos³

I second Tsjerk's wonderful DDT(analogue) synthesis as a measure.

This paper suggest even some method how to test DDT strength with roaches.

B(a)P - 9-12-2020 at 13:13

Quote: Originally posted by karlos³

I second Tsjerk's wonderful DDT(analogue) synthesis as a measure.

It depends on the species, the German cockroach for example has high resistance to most OCPs, OPPs and carbamates.

teodor - 9-12-2020 at 13:18

Quote: Originally posted by B(a)P

Quote: Originally posted by karlos³

I second Tsjerk's wonderful DDT(analogue) synthesis as a measure.

It depends on the species, the German cockroach for example has high resistance to most OCPs, OPPs and carbamates.

If you check the paper I mentioned well-trained "resistant" rouches do it by some sort of metabolism named "dehydrochlorination". But now we propose them something for "dehydrobromination" and who knowns.

[Edited on 9-12-2020 by teodor]

B(a)P - 9-12-2020 at 14:44

Quote: Originally posted by teodor

Quote: Originally posted by B(a)P

Quote: Originally posted by karlos³

I second Tsjerk's wonderful DDT(analogue) synthesis as a measure.

It depends on the species, the German cockroach for example has high resistance to most OCPs, OPPs and carbamates.

That is a very good point and if the compound is as it effective on cockroaches as its observed effectiveness on flies and aphids then it would effectively work as a pre-emergent. Even if the females were able to deposit their egg sacks the emerging young would be killed on contact with the treated surface. Tsjerk's DDT(analogue) get's my vote. Please do keep us posted with your progress and success or otherwise @TheNerdyFarmer!

Morgan - 9-12-2020 at 17:00

Another avenue is to eliminate any possible crumb of a food source and ways of entering a building.

karlos³ - 10-12-2020 at 12:38

Quote: Originally posted by Morgan

Another avenue is to eliminate any possible crumb of a food source and ways of entering a building.

But we are chemists, we can do it even more effective and funnier

macckone - 10-12-2020 at 12:44

1) clean up any food, do not leave sitting dishes
2) remove water sources - literally plug all drains at night and add chlorine based cleaner to the toilet and drains
3) roach bait traps with insect growth regulators (they cannot breed if they eat it)
4) boric acid, many OTC traps contain boric acid mixed in an edible form
5) diatomaceous earth
6) pyrethrin or resmethrin based insecticide foggers
7) residual sprays like ortho home defense
8) you can temperature treat the house
a) cold climate involves turning off water and draining pipes and going on a 3 day trip with temperatures allowed to go well below freezing in the house
b) heat treat - multiple heaters with the goal of getting the house temperture about 120F.

Use as many of these as you can.

Other treatments:
ozone or formaldehyde mold remover will kill everything living in the house over several days but may discolor fabrics and change the texture. You need to completely vacate the premises for this to be safe. Remove all clothing, food, medicine, etc.

UC235 - 10-12-2020 at 17:50

Wood roaches do not actually live or breed indoors and need moist environment (ie: outdoors) but end up inside because they are attracted to light and by wandering. If they are indeed wood roaches, you may do better by just sealing cracks, replacing weather stripping, investing in heavier curtains or blinds, moving wood piles away from the house, and reducing exterior illumination at night.

Dr.Bob - 10-12-2020 at 18:53

I would strongly recommend using some roach bait gel, putting it in hidden places all over the house, and then buy some different trap type baits that use a different poison. The link below is one good one that uses fipronil, but there are about 4 newer compounds that work well, including ivermectin, fipronil, and a few others, and using at least 2 or three of them works best. Traps and bait are better than just spraying, as they have the poison in a food source that roaches like, so the bugs come to them. I used them on a vacant house I was cleaning out to sell that was badly infested. You could also use boronic acid to complement those, but it does not work as well by itself, in my experience.

I found that the gel could be placed on note cards or small pieces of paper and those placed inside cabinets, on the floor/baseboard, on window sills, and in corners. Easier to clean up that way or move to other places. Sadly, most of the poisons used are pretty complex now, so hard to make yourself, but if someone was really interested, the literature is not that hard to find. Imidacloprid might be doable, Pyriproxyfen is also not as complex as some others.

https://www.domyown.com/maxforce-fc-select-roach-bait-gel-p-...

for others, just google "roach bait" or other similar ones.

Combat Roach Trays

MadHatter - 10-12-2020 at 20:47

They're not expensive and every time I've
used them 100% effective. Nothing ever
worked better for me. The little bastards
eat poisoned bait and carry it back to their
nests.

j_sum1 - 10-12-2020 at 21:38

They don't like hammers that much.

zed - 12-12-2020 at 19:08

I have been in a number of houses, that once had roaches, but had them no more.

Boric Acid. They eat it and die. Then, because they are roaches, the living roaches eat the bodies of the dead roaches, and they die too.

Kill, Kill, Kill,Kill, Kill, Kill,Kill, Kill, Kill,Kill, Kill, Kill,Kill, Kill, Kill,Kill, Kill, Kill,Kill, Kill, Kill,Kill, Kill, Kill,Kill, Kill, Kill,Kill, Kill, Kill,Kill, Kill, Kill,Kill, Kill, Kill,Kill, Kill, Kill,Kill, Kill, Kill,Kill, Kill, Kill,Kill, Kill, Kill,Kill, Kill, Kill,Kill, Kill, Kill,Kill, Kill, Kill,Kill, Kill, Kill,Kill, Kill, Kill,Kill, Kill, Kill,Kill, Kill, Kill,Kill, Kill, Kill,Kill, Kill, Kill,Kill, Kill, Kill,Kill, Kill, Kill,Kill, Kill, Kill,Kill, Kill, Kill,Kill, Kill, Kill,Kill, Kill, Kill,Kill, Kill, Kill,Kill, Kill, Kill,Kill, Kill, Kill,Kill, Kill, Kill,Kill, Kill.

Umm. Maybe I got carried away. I hate roaches.

karlos³ - 13-12-2020 at 10:46

Despite the "german cockroach" being one of the worst roaches around, I have to say in almost four decades of living in germany, I've never seen a single one of them

Strange...

Tsjerk - 13-12-2020 at 11:40

I have seen them numerous times in Munich, the first couple times I went after them, trying to kill them. But people told me they fly around looking for food, if you don't have any laying around they won't stick around.

Maybe someone close wasn't being so clean.

karlos³ - 13-12-2020 at 12:29

Ok thats munich for you, I guess...
I once travelled via their train station, and my train was delayed so I remained there after it got dark....
It looked like the rats suddenly played ballet on the tracks after the sun went down

I've never seen so much rats at once, and absolutely never such fearless ones at once ever

Horrific experience, but I guess it depends on the cities a lot and differs a whole lot as well.

But, I still hope to never experience any roaches ever, and if so... then I hope I can might acquire a gram of your bromo DDT analogue from you

Or make some on my own.

Its a shame that DDT and analogues have been completely restricted nowadays, just 5 years more on the free market and the planet would have been eradicated of malaria...

macckone - 13-12-2020 at 17:05

Speaking of rats, they eat cockroaches.
Cockroaches will also kill bedbugs.
But bedbugs will feed on rat.

Like rock paper scissors but with pests.

Dr.Bob - 14-12-2020 at 10:31

I'm still sad they banned Chlordane for termite control. You could apply it around the house in a trench around the foundation, and for 50 years, there were no termites. It sticks to clay, so it does not wash away or into ground water, and lasts so long that you almost never have to reapply anything. Diamonds may be forever, but chordane is nearly that good. Fipronil is good for about 10 years, which is not bad, but many other newer things go away quickly, so you just have to retreat more often, so more overall pesticide use. Hexaflumuron is also a great compound, when used as a bait system, if you just spray that on the bottom of the studs and the sill plate it would likely keep termites away for years as well, and not hard to make, I think 2 steps. I made an analog of it a few years back that I happened to find the starting materials for, it was one atom away from each of two approved compounds, so should be quite effective. Just soak some wood stakes in it and drive them around the foundation. Termites eat them, take it back to the colony and kill it, like Sentricon or other bait stations, but much simpler and cheaper, as no need to monitor is every stake is treated already.

B(a)P - 14-12-2020 at 11:28

Quote: Originally posted by Dr.Bob

I'm still sad they banned Chlordane for termite control. You could apply it around the house in a trench around the foundation, and for 50 years, there were no termites. It sticks to clay, so it does not wash away or into ground water, and lasts so long that you almost never have to reapply anything.

These properties make it both amazing and terrible at the same time. The same can be said for Aldrin and Dieldrin. I have worked on two projects where these compounds added huge amounts to the cost. Both were industrial facilities that liberally applied these compounds during construction in the 50s and 60s (no evidence of termites in any buildings during demolition ~2010). One site required a specially design on site containment cell to hold all of the contaminated soil and concrete (this added millions to the project cost). The other required soil to be thermally treated to burn off the OCP residue (this added many 10s of millions to the project cost). They are amazing products until someone decides they want to do something different with the land. I still think there are modern applications for these products, but their persistence in the environment, ecotoxicity and potential impact on human health have obviously kiboshed that. My Grandfather stockpiled a bunch of 245T, Dieldrin and Lucijet back in the 70s and 80s when they started to get hard to come by, because they were all so effective at what they were designed for. It is a shame we humans couldn't be a little more responsible with our use of chemicals or we might still have a few of these in our repertoire.

TriiodideFrog - 14-12-2020 at 20:36

You can try using baking soda and sugar in equal parts. Put it in a bowl and place it in a place they frequent.

itsallgoodjames - 15-12-2020 at 06:22

Quote: Originally posted by TriiodideFrog

You can try using baking soda and sugar in equal parts. Put it in a bowl and place it in a place they frequent.

Is bicarb toxic for roaches? That seems like an odd thing to be toxic, but then again, what do I know...