Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Violuric acid salts (fantastic colors and variety)

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vano - 27-3-2021 at 06:48

Lithium violurate

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vano - 27-3-2021 at 07:29

Gallium violurate. It has more light colour than indium violurate.


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vano - 27-3-2021 at 07:35

Quote: Originally posted by Bezaleel  



Indium

It seems that indium is chemically too basic to easily form a salt with violuric acid. My estimate is that this will count all the more for Re, Mo and W. I decided that I will not make the uranyl salt, because of the precautions necessary to safely work with it. I consider cerium, which is interesting because it is a coloured RE and also has a stable +IV oxidation state, and aluminium.

I did it easily, dissolving the carbonate in acid

RustyShackleford - 27-3-2021 at 08:01

Since there have now been so many metal salts made, i put together a periodic table . There is still a lot of them to be made :)
group 1 is complete!
for group 2 only beryllium is missing.




nedladdning.png - 4MB

[Edited on 27-3-2021 by RustyShackleford]

vano - 27-3-2021 at 08:23

Perfect. I have beryllium i will make it

vano - 27-3-2021 at 09:11

Mercury(I) violurate. I used mercury(I) nitrate. I used excess nitrate. The required amount was dissolved in the acid and the excess crystals stayed undissolved. Then a pink suspension was formed, I poured it into another flask and filtered it.


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vano - 27-3-2021 at 09:29

Divide the hydrate plate and for example bivalent mercury is inserted there. Or think of something else. I really like periodic table idea.

Bezaleel - 27-3-2021 at 16:01

Quote: Originally posted by vano  
Quote: Originally posted by Bezaleel  

Indium

It seems that indium is chemically too basic to easily form a salt with violuric acid. My estimate is that this will count all the more for Re, Mo and W. I decided that I will not make the uranyl salt, because of the precautions necessary to safely work with it. I consider cerium, which is interesting because it is a coloured RE and also has a stable +IV oxidation state, and aluminium.

I did it easily, dissolving the carbonate in acid

I find it odd to say the least that the carbonate dissolves easily, whereas the hydroxide takes quite some time to fully dissolve. In particular, my hydroxide was not heated and was always in a liquid, so it never dried. It should be easily reacting.
Quote: Originally posted by RustyShackleford  
Shame that the indium didnt form a solid, the solution looks real nice though. Also im quite suprised the Sm and Pr are so similar in color, from all the other salts i woulve expected a bigger difference. They both look quite nice though, thank you for taking the time to produce the salts and post pictures!

It did form a solid. Two, actually. After filtering off the excess of indium hydroxide, the solution first gave a crop of bright red coloured crystals, while the solution turned from purple-blue to a deep dark blue.
IMG_3674_adj.JPG - 375kB

At one point I noticed that no more crystals appeared, although more of the liquid had evaporated. I then poured off the blue liquid and continued to evaporate the dark blue liquid over NaOH (as before). When almost no liquid had remained, dark blue crystals formed. When standing longer in the desiccator, they turned off-white, like the colour of violuric acid itself. On standing outside the desiccator for a few days, the dark blue colour came back. The photo below shows the red and blue compounds I obtained.
IMG_3704_adj.JPG - 314kB

I was unsure whether the blue or red compound maybe was ammonium violurate, since I used ammonia to make the indium hydroxide. To double check, I took the indium hydroxide which had not dissolved in the experiment. It was rinsed on a filter, until almost all of the colour from the dark blue liquid had washed out. A spatula tip of violuric acid was added to the washed hydroxide and water was added to obtain a purple solution. After stirring on a 70C hotplate for 1 hour, the colour had darkened to a more intense purple. The mixture was poured into a pointed flask to let the residue settle.
IMG_3695_det_adj.JPG - 156kB

The purple liquid was evaporated in a desiccator over NaOH, as usual. To my surprise, this time also red crystals and a blue solution were obtained, just as in the first experiment.
IMG_3730_adj.JPG - 316kB

I don't believe that either the red or the blue compound is an ammonium compound, but I haven't done any testing.
Quote: Originally posted by vano  
Thanks. This is indium violurate. Brown- dark red colour. I used indium carbonate. Carbonates are better.
[Edited on 27-3-2021 by vano]

Could it be that you have a mix of the red and blue solids I got? Is your sample anhydrous?

Bezaleel - 27-3-2021 at 16:15

Quote: Originally posted by RustyShackleford  
Since there have now been so many metal salts made, i put together a periodic table . There is still a lot of them to be made :)
group 1 is complete!
for group 2 only beryllium is missing.
[Edited on 27-3-2021 by RustyShackleford]

Nice work! :)
Maybe it's a good idea to write the element symbols into the pictures.

The europium solution is not representative. It was made from EuCl3, which inhibits formation of larger amounts of Eu-violurate. I regained some violuric acid from the failed Pr synth. If you wish, I can make the Eu salt from Eu2(CO3)3, or I can try Ce or Er, whichever you prefer.

vano - 27-3-2021 at 22:02

I had indium nitrate solution and i made carbonate from it. Also some metals for example indium produce hydroxyindates and this is why I prefer carbobate. I also avoided the presence of other cations in the solution as much as possible

vano - 30-3-2021 at 03:47

Beryllium violurate.

1)Solution was green
2) hydrated salt was yellow
3) anhydrous is brown
4) When I finished synthesis, I decided to wash the flask, but when I poured water it turned purple. It's pretty weird.

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vano - 30-3-2021 at 07:53


Silver violurate. Solution and anhydrous. I think red particles are hydrates.

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Texium - 30-3-2021 at 08:40

Quote: Originally posted by vano  
Beryllium violurate.

1)Solution was green
2) hydrated salt was yellow
3) anhydrous is brown
4) When I finished synthesis, I decided to wash the flask, but when I poured water it turned purple. It's pretty weird.
Beryllium is a strange element. It doesn’t follow the same trend as other alkaline earth metals. Its compounds are covalent rather than ionic, and readily undergo hydrolysis. Most, if not all, of the pictures that you posted are probably not “beryllium violurate” in the sense that you’re describing.

vano - 30-3-2021 at 09:06

Yes you are right. I think 4 is hydrolyzed compound.

Bedlasky - 30-3-2021 at 09:07

Quote: Originally posted by vano  
Beryllium violurate.

1)Solution was green
2) hydrated salt was yellow
3) anhydrous is brown
4) When I finished synthesis, I decided to wash the flask, but when I poured water it turned purple. It's pretty weird.



I think that green and yellow colours are due to some complex formation. Hydrated salt is purple according to behavior in point 4.

Quote: Originally posted by vano  

Silver violurate. Solution and anhydrous. I think red particles are hydrates.



How can you be so sure that silver salt is anhydrous? Red colour can be caused by different particle size.

vano - 30-3-2021 at 09:12

Quote: Originally posted by Bedlasky  


How can you be so sure that silver salt is anhydrous? Red colour can be caused by different particle size.


The color changed and faded. We have talked about the size and color of the particles before, in this case the red particles were on the walls of the flask, while the dark bottom, i.e. the red, lost less water.

vano - 30-3-2021 at 09:16

Quote: Originally posted by Bedlasky  


I think that green and yellow colours are due to some complex formation. Hydrated salt is purple according to behavior in point 4.


I think its hydrolyzed. I may try to make hydrate in the future as well. This time bivalent mercury and cadmium are in the queue.

vano - 30-3-2021 at 10:43

Mercury(II) violurate. I used mercury oxide.


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Just dilute solution of the acid

vano - 31-3-2021 at 09:43

There were acid particles on the walls of the package. I added water and got this color, then poured it into a vial. The color is well visible on a white background. I think the sharp change in color during hydrolysis is also caused by this.

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RustyShackleford - 1-4-2021 at 07:48

Strange, I just tested dissolving some of the very same batch i sent you and its an almost completely clear solution, slight hint of pink (likely some residual sodium contamination). Perhaps you used a metal spoon or a contaminated plastic one at some point, or maybe the baggie i sent had some contaminant dust on the inside.

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Also here is the updated perodic table of violurate salt.
Thank you Vano for your tremendous contribution!



periodic.png - 4.3MB

[Edited on 1-4-2021 by RustyShackleford]

vano - 1-4-2021 at 09:07

Thank you! It was a good experience. I have never used metal spoon. I always pour the powder directly from the package onto a sheet of paper. If this was caused by the plastic, since it was inside for a long time, then it is interesting. I rule out the presence of sodium ions in the solution as I have not used any sodium compounds.

Did you spill silver nitrate on your hand?

[Edited on 1-4-2021 by vano]

RustyShackleford - 1-4-2021 at 09:12

Quote: Originally posted by vano  

Did you spill silver nitrate on your hand?

yes haha, ive been purifying some teeth amalgam powder recently, i think i touched the inside of the beaker while washing it.

vano - 1-4-2021 at 09:28

:D. Once almost half of my hands became black, in the past I was very fond of separating pure silver from alloys. You know there are ways, but from personal experience it takes about 4 hours to put your hand in the water to remove the black layer from the skin.

Bezaleel - 1-4-2021 at 16:17

Quote: Originally posted by RustyShackleford  
Strange, I just tested dissolving some of the very same batch i sent you and its an almost completely clear solution, slight hint of pink (likely some residual sodium contamination). Perhaps you used a metal spoon or a contaminated plastic one at some point, or maybe the baggie i sent had some contaminant dust on the inside.
I consistently get the same results. I use a nickel spatula, but I can hardly believe that nickel oxide would indeed react with the violuric acid.

Quote: Originally posted by RustyShackleford  
Also here is the updated perodic table of violurate salt.
Thank you Vano for your tremendous contribution!
[Edited on 1-4-2021 by RustyShackleford]
Great - thanks Rusty!

In the meantime I prepared aluminium violurate, which is another medium red compound, and reddish pink in solution (photos to follow).

I also retested the indium compounds I obtained and it gave me the same results as before. First a crop of red crystals is deposited and after this has stopped and the solution is left to crystallise in a separate beaker, a crop of blue crystals is formed. On re-dissolving these red and blue compounds, the same red and blue compounds are formed, so they do not exists in equilibrium with each other. Together with the red compound, some violuric acid also seems to crystallise out. My guess is that I obtained basic indium compounds and that vano has obtained the normal, non-basic indium violurate.

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vano - 1-4-2021 at 19:52

Nice work Bezaleel

vano - 2-4-2021 at 01:43

Hi. These photos are better. Last one is new (cadmium violurate). Unfortunately the indium violurate powder was spilled. I have so little right now that it is nonsense to stuff it in a vial.

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Diachrynic - 2-4-2021 at 04:22

Amazing work vano!

Haven't seen lead mentioned, so here is some. Made from about 0.11 g of the sodium salt (dihydrate) and about 0.17 g of lead acetate trihydrate, from mixing the two as solutions (added lead to the violurate). Instant precipitate from the warm solution, but no complete discoloration. Filtered, washing water was colorless. A portion was dried at about 180 °C on a hotplate.

Left is the tetra/pentahydrate (still a bit wet), right anhydrous
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Didn't find much information, and some conflicting on the hydration. Can't access the original source so I'll attach the scifinder screenshots.

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vano - 2-4-2021 at 06:01

Thanks Diachrynic. Nice work.

Diachrynic - 2-4-2021 at 11:45

Yttrium is generally not very interesting, but it's violurate is brightly yellow.

I dissolved about 0.5-0.7 g of violuric acid monohydrate (mine was freshly made and still wet so I don't know exactly, it's an excess of over 3:1 to the yttrium used however) in 50 mL of boiling 95% ethanol - had some insoluble grey-brown stuff so I filtered that off. To that solution was added about 0.25 g of YCl3 (it should be noted that YCl3 is very hygroscopic and mine was slightly wet so this amount is also lower than I measured out here) in about 1 mL of water to the boiling ethanol solution while stirring. It turned yellow and after about a minute of strong stirring and boiling the solution became turbid, it was boiled for five minutes longer and left to cool until luke warm. The yellow precipitate was vacuum filtered off and washed with some 95% ethanol. The solution that passes through is slightly yellow and deposits only small amounts of additional precipitate with more yttrium chloride solution. The solid was then air dried. Yield was about 0.166 g. (Because this was all done a bit sloppy I didn't bother to calculate a % yield.)

[YVio2(H2O)2]Vio+6H2O.jpg - 2MB

The product is of the composition [Y(Vio)2(H2O)2]Vio · 6 H2O where HVio is violuric acid.

The preparation comes from Gad, A. A. M., Farag, I. S. A., & Awadallah, R. M. (1992). Synthesis and Characterisation of Scandium (III)-, Yttrium (III)-, and Lanthanum (III) Violurate Complexes. Crystal Research and Technology, 27(2), 201–210. doi:10.1002/crat.2170270210

Attachment: gad1992.pdf (421kB)
This file has been downloaded 283 times

[Edited on 2-4-2021 by Diachrynic]

vano - 2-4-2021 at 12:13

Nice. Now there are two yellow violurates Sc and Y. Where did you buy yttrium chloride?

Diachrynic - 2-4-2021 at 12:40

Quote: Originally posted by vano  
Where did you buy yttrium chloride?

I happened to get about 6 kg (it was one big solid brick) of it when it was supposed be disposed of, so I saved it from being just thrown out, I don't actually know where to buy it.

[Edited on 2-4-2021 by Diachrynic]

vano - 3-4-2021 at 00:52

6 kg is too much, good source. I too have bought solid brick chemicals very cheaply.

Diachrynic - 3-4-2021 at 13:25

I found no literature on bismuth violurate, so here is a small test tube scale experiment. It seems fairly soluble.

Some bismuth nitrate pentahydrate was dissolved in some water with some sulfuric acid (bismuth hydrolyses to basic salts with annoying ease...), to this some sodium violurate solution was added. The color turned orange. When acetic acid and sodium acetate were added, the color became purple. Whether this is because the sodium is competing with the bismuth or something else, I am not sure, the color is somewhat different from pure sodium violurate however, which is more purple. If anyone wants to prepare the solid, I would suggest using a bismuth oxide/hydroxide and the free acid since I didn't get precipitation.

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h0lx - 17-4-2021 at 16:48

ortho-toluidine violurate, this one I did as a proof of concept in a very small unmeasured scale, I will now make more to vial up.

o-toluidinevio.jpg - 1.3MB

RustyShackleford - 6-7-2021 at 12:07

Update on the subject of violuric acid:

Thanks to the help of PoorMans Chemist (who i sent some violuric and barbituric acid to) videos about the subject have been produced, aswell as many new salts for our collective viewing pleasure.
Especially big thanks to him for producing the Thallium and Uranyl salts, super cool to see!

Also thanks to user H0lx for giving me the idea to put these tables together, aswell as making many of the organic salts of violuric acid (pyridine, ethanolamine, methylamine, ethylenediamine, o-MePhNH3, Guanidine and Aminoguanidine)


I decided to put together 2 new tables to better show all (i think) organic salts created thus far, aswell as update the periodic table. Unfortunately i had to cut up the organic one due to file size limit




periodic.png - 5.3MB
org1.png - 2.9MB
org2.png - 3.8MB
org3.png - 1.4MB
aminoacids.png - 2.9MB
If you can find a pattern in these colors, please inform me.

If youd like to watch the videos PoorMans Chemist created:
Preparation of Ba, Cs, Tl violurates:
https://www.bitchute.com/video/427j5UDiP7oQ/
Preparation of violuric from barbituric:
https://www.bitchute.com/video/pPvACwLjOdUw/
Preparation of a few organoammonium violurates:
https://www.bitchute.com/video/VCevp82sbNIC/
His youtube channel, community page contains several pictures of the salts aswell as of the process of producing them:
https://www.youtube.com/c/PoorMansChemist/

[Edited on 6-7-2021 by RustyShackleford]

j_sum1 - 6-7-2021 at 19:14

I am loving this project -- at least watching from the side lines.
About your periodic table graphic, surely it is Sc3+?

vano - 7-7-2021 at 11:15

I love this project too. Yes it's really scandium salt. I don't have much scandium because it has high price. I bought 1 gram scandium and i used very small amount for this reaction.

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RustyShackleford - 7-7-2021 at 13:12

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
I am loving this project -- at least watching from the side lines.
About your periodic table graphic, surely it is Sc3+?

damn, and i thought i fixed the errors in the image. Ofc it is and should have been obvious to me. ill fix it in the next update when ive done the Al3+ salt and Ti3+ salt. I already tried Al twice but with no success.
Im having trouble getting a pure sample of Al(OH)3 to react w the acid. precipitating the hydroxide and washing it didnt work, and using hydrolysed then dried AlCl3 gave some wierd product that evaporated to a white solid (purple/brown in solution), very strange.

[Edited on 7-7-2021 by RustyShackleford]

vano - 7-7-2021 at 21:49

It would be interesting to make oxime from thiobarbituric acid a violuric acid analogue. I wonder how different the colors will be from violurates.

Bezaleel - 10-7-2021 at 07:44

Quote: Originally posted by RustyShackleford  

...
damn, and i thought i fixed the errors in the image. Ofc it is and should have been obvious to me. ill fix it in the next update when ive done the Al3+ salt and Ti3+ salt. I already tried Al twice but with no success.
Im having trouble getting a pure sample of Al(OH)3 to react w the acid. precipitating the hydroxide and washing it didnt work, and using hydrolysed then dried AlCl3 gave some wierd product that evaporated to a white solid (purple/brown in solution), very strange.

[Edited on 7-7-2021 by RustyShackleford]

I tried the Al3+ salt too. Solution and crystals are fuchsia-like, similar to a number of other violurates:
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Preparation via Al2(CO3)3 from alum with sodium bicarbonate solution and filtrating/rinsing twice. Stir the carbonate with the violurate for 1 hour on 1200rpm at 70C. Let stand for a day and using a pipette to suck off the solution.

I don't exclude that a larger portion of the violuric acid hasn't even reacted.

DraconicAcid - 10-7-2021 at 08:04

Alum and sodium bicarbonate don't give you aluminum carbonate- it gives aluminum hydroxide.

Still, a pretty colour.

Bezaleel - 10-7-2021 at 08:12

Quote: Originally posted by Diachrynic  
Yttrium is generally not very interesting, but it's violurate is brightly yellow.

I dissolved about 0.5-0.7 g of violuric acid monohydrate (mine was freshly made and still wet so I don't know exactly, it's an excess of over 3:1 to the yttrium used however) in 50 mL of boiling 95% ethanol - had some insoluble grey-brown stuff so I filtered that off. To that solution was added about 0.25 g of YCl3 (it should be noted that YCl3 is very hygroscopic and mine was slightly wet so this amount is also lower than I measured out here) in about 1 mL of water to the boiling ethanol solution while stirring. It turned yellow and after about a minute of strong stirring and boiling the solution became turbid, it was boiled for five minutes longer and left to cool until luke warm. The yellow precipitate was vacuum filtered off and washed with some 95% ethanol. The solution that passes through is slightly yellow and deposits only small amounts of additional precipitate with more yttrium chloride solution. The solid was then air dried. Yield was about 0.166 g. (Because this was all done a bit sloppy I didn't bother to calculate a % yield.)



The product is of the composition [Y(Vio)2(H2O)2]Vio · 6 H2O where HVio is violuric acid.

The preparation comes from Gad, A. A. M., Farag, I. S. A., & Awadallah, R. M. (1992). Synthesis and Characterisation of Scandium (III)-, Yttrium (III)-, and Lanthanum (III) Violurate Complexes. Crystal Research and Technology, 27(2), 201–210. doi:10.1002/crat.2170270210

[Edited on 2-4-2021 by Diachrynic]


I have some doubt whether you really got the salt you say you got, [Y(Vio)2(H2O)2]Vio · 6 H2O. The rare earths tend to form yellow violurate salts which contain chloride when prepared from rare earth chlorides, so it may have played a trick on you.

I prepared a yellow salt from EuCl3.6H2O (pictured). However, with Sm2(CO3)3 and Pr(OH)3 I obtained dark red salts.

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Bezaleel - 10-7-2021 at 08:16

Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid  
Alum and sodium bicarbonate don't give you aluminum carbonate- it gives aluminum hydroxide.

Still, a pretty colour.

Okay, I wasn't aware of that.

Bezaleel - 18-7-2021 at 16:44

Cerium violurate

0.374g of (NH4)4Ce(SO4)4 were dissolved in water and Ce(OH)4 was precipitated by adding an excess of NaOH solution. The precipitate was washed 4 times and then scraped of the filter and added to a warm (pink/lilac) solution of 0.298g of violuric acid. The light yellow precipitate of Ce(OH)4 turned dark orange immediately but the solution retained its colour of dissolved violuric acid.

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This is a bit mysterious, since the Ce(OH)4 was present in excess (0.300g (NH4)4Ce(SO4)4 would be stoichiometric, assuming no losses). It did react with the violuric acid, but it did not dissolve nor use up all the dissolved violuric acid. I presume that a basic Ce-salt has formed, like Ce(OH)2(vio)2.

woelen - 19-7-2021 at 02:08

I finally ordered some barbituric acid (from S3 chemicals), so that I also can jump in in this thread. I certainly want to try things, I want to try making mix-salts with different metal ion. Sometimes such mix-salts can have really surprising colors, due to electronic interactions between ions in a (closely packed) lattice. But first I'll try some of the variations in this thread, just to check my violuric acid, which I first need to prepare.

RustyShackleford - 19-7-2021 at 16:39

Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
I finally ordered some barbituric acid (from S3 chemicals), so that I also can jump in in this thread. I certainly want to try things, I want to try making mix-salts with different metal ion. Sometimes such mix-salts can have really surprising colors, due to electronic interactions between ions in a (closely packed) lattice. But first I'll try some of the variations in this thread, just to check my violuric acid, which I first need to prepare.

Glad to hear! if you need any help send me a DM. I have a good amount of experience doing that prep and making salts with it , 24 so far :)

woelen - 29-7-2021 at 01:01

My barbituric acid arrived :)
Next weekend I want to make some violuric acid.

@RustyShackleford: You posted this link https://illumina-chemie.de/viewtopic.php?t=5502
I want to go through sodium violurate instead of making violuric acid directly (the latter only has ~40% yield, while the other two-step proces through Na-violurate has a combined ~70% yield). How was your experience with this preparation? Any special remarks or pitfalls. I have 50 grams of barbituric acid, so I should have enough for a few shots, but of course I want to have it right at first shot ;)

RustyShackleford - 29-7-2021 at 03:57

Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
My barbituric acid arrived :)
Next weekend I want to make some violuric acid.

@RustyShackleford: You posted this link https://illumina-chemie.de/viewtopic.php?t=5502
I want to go through sodium violurate instead of making violuric acid directly (the latter only has ~40% yield, while the other two-step proces through Na-violurate has a combined ~70% yield). How was your experience with this preparation? Any special remarks or pitfalls. I have 50 grams of barbituric acid, so I should have enough for a few shots, but of course I want to have it right at first shot ;)


[Barbituric acid->Na Violurate -> Violuric acid] is the route ive done 4 times now, every time its gone smoothly. The yield has been VERY good, starting with 86% overall and climbing to 92% most recently.
The 2 step prep as written on illumina has worked very well, the only change i made is to disregard being accurate with the pH. I simply just added the 1g of NaOH and 3 ml acetic acid, and later 2.5g NaOH, which doesnt actually end up at the pH the prep says,but it seemingly doesnt even matter.
Also, for the Na violurate -> violuric acid step, i stir it 1h with 15% HCl, then another hour with fresh 15% HCl. This is to leech out more Na ions which otherwise could contaminate the violuric acid. After that, i filter it off and dry in an NaOH dessicator (puts out a lot of HCl fumes while drying, can be washed w cold isopropanol to lessen the fumes at a cost of 4-5% in yield)
When its dessicated, its good to dry it further in oven/on hotplate @140C so you can be really accurate with stoiciometry when using it.

If you want to recrystallize the violuric acid (i never did), i think a suitable solvent would be 5% HCl


[Edited on 29-7-2021 by RustyShackleford]

woelen - 1-8-2021 at 12:17

I roughly used the route, described on Illumina, but I did not use any NaCl. That adds another ion (chloride) in the mix and I want to have as little as possible of other anions in the mix.

I proceeded as follows:
- Dissolve 3.25 grams of barbituric acid in 50 ml of distilled water. Heat the water to near boiling, so that all of the barbituric acid dissolves.
- Dissolve 1.92 grams of NaNO2 in 6 ml of water.
- Add the solution of NaNO2 to the solution of barbituric acid, while the latter is on a stirrer with a stir bar in it. Rinse all NaNO2 from the beaker with an addition few ml of water --> As soon as the NaNO2 goes into the solution of barbituric acid, the liquid becomes dark purple. In the next few minutes, solid sodium violurate starts to settle, despite the stirring.
- In a separate beaker, put 4 ml of CH3COOH, 4 ml of water and add 1 gram of NaOH. A violent reaction occurs, all NaOH dissolves. Pour this hot liquid into the liquid with the barbituric acid and NaNO2, while still stirring. Keep on stirring for 20 minutes or so, when no changes occur anymore.
- Dissolve 2.5 grams of NaOH in 5 ml of water and add this solution to the beaker with the sodium violurate. Keep stirring and at the same time, heat the beaker till near boiling --> The solid sodium violurate does not dissolve. Even at boiling, it remains suspended in the liquid. When stirring stops, then the solid settles in a few tens of seconds into a layer of 1 cm thickness.
- Finally, allow the liquid in the beaker to cool down and then put it in a fridge at 5 C or so.

Now, the beaker still is in the fridge, I'll leave it there for an hour or so and then I'll see how much sodium violurate I can separate. It looks quite good though, I see a lot of compact precipitate.
I also measured the pH of the liquid at the end, after adding the 2.5 grams of NaOH. The liquid has a pH of 11 to 12, according to my pH-paper. This is quite alkaline. It does not feel slippery to the skin though.

------------------------------------------------------------

If I indeed can separate a nice amount of sodium violurate, then I'll try exactly the same experiment, with the same molar amounts with the potassium ion instead of sodium ion. I have KNO2, KOH and then can use the same amounts of barbituric acid, the same molar amount of KNO2 and the same molar amounts of KOH. That should give me K-violurate, without any chloride in it.

I also have Ba(NO2)2 and Ba(OH)2, so maybe I even try the experiment with Ba in half the molar amount in barium, but I expect that experiment to be more cumbersome. Ba(NO2)2 and Ba(OH)2 are not that well soluble, and solutions tend to get cloudy if they are somewhat alkaline (due to absorption of CO2 from air and subsequent precipitation of BaCO3).

More will follow, and of course, I make pictures and videos of all steps I take

woelen - 3-8-2021 at 11:19

I can report that the production of sodium violurate succeeded very well with the above procedure. I took the beaker from the fridge and filtered the solution. This leads to a paste. This paste I rinsed one time with a small amount of distilled water and then I again filtered until I obtained a paste again. This I dried in a watch glass on a warm place (50 C or so), while occasionally stirring the material and turning it around. I allowed it to dry for 36 hours, but after 24 hours it looked dry already.

I have done my best to have as little as possible of mechanical losses. I had a yield of 4.53 grams of solid material, a free flowing powder with a deep red, somewhat pink/purple color. It really has a beautiful very bright color, which I could capture in a picture quite well. Pictures will follow soon, together with a webpage.
My percentage yield is a little lower than reported in the first post (there, a yield of 9.85 grams is reported from double amounts, so, based on that I should have 4.93 grams or so). But the difference is not dramatic, so I am quite happy with my result. My result is definitely free of chloride and that may be helpful when experimenting with coordination complexes.

I also did a few experiments with acids and bases:
- Adding the solid to 10% H2SO4 leads to the solid turning orange/red instead of the bright purple/red and it dissolves, giving a colorless solution.
- Adding the solid to 10% NaOH leads to dissolving of the solid, just like in water, but the solution is not red with a purple tinge, but it is more orange/red. Still a bright color, but definitely different from what you get, when the solid is dissolved in water. I already noticed that at high pH, the solution tends to shift to orange.
- I added excess solid NaOH to the colorless solution in dilute H2SO4. Around the granules of NaOH you see pale orange liquid. The solid NaOH dissolves, producing a lot of heat. At the lower, strongly alkaline layer, the liquid becomes orange, then there is a very dark purple/blue layer and on top of that is a pink acidic layer. On shaking all of the liquid, the final color becomes red with an orange hue, just like the solution, obtained when dissolving sodium violurate in dilute NaOH.

[Edited on 3-8-21 by woelen]

woelen - 4-8-2021 at 11:22

A picture of the dried powder in a watch glass. The material has a beautiful bright color, it really looks like it is in the picture with a deeply saturated color.



na_violurate_dry_powder.jpg - 828kB

Bezaleel - 30-8-2021 at 05:56

Woelen, did you ever get round to making any violurate salts?
Since you violuric acid is strongly pink, whereas the acid I received from Rusty is creme coloured, I'm all the more curious about your results.

woelen - 31-8-2021 at 02:54

I did not make the free acid, but the sodium salt. I made the free acid only in solution. Such solutions are colorless.
Finding time for making other salts is hard for me now. I am building a large garden house in our garden and that takes nearly all spare time at the moment. Before winter arrives it must be complete, including all streetwork around it.

RustyShackleford - 31-8-2021 at 08:33

Hello everyone! Im back with another few violurates to add to this growing collection.
Thanks to Ormarion for making and sending me pictures of dimethylaniline, 2,2 bipyridine violurates and the zirconium salt. Ormarion has produced their own violuric acid from diethylmalonate, and is working on a video about the process, although it will be in french, i think video documentation will be great for those looking to attempt the reactions.

And thanks to h0lx for making and sending pictures of 2-amino-4,6-dimethylpyrimidine and 3,5-dimethyl pyrazole salts.

Myself i havent had time to do more than triisopropanolamine since ive been busy with exams. But i do have some exciting news, thanks to an extremely generous offer 13C, 1HNMR and FTIR analysis will be done on the violuric acid i have produced aswell as possibly some high end microscope pictures of a few of the salts. Its possible that even COSY and HSQC scans will be performed. I will update with results when i get them :D

The new organic salts
noname01.png - 2.9MB
Zirconium salt
Zr.jpg - 2.3MB

[Edited on 31-8-2021 by RustyShackleford]

TheMrbunGee - 31-8-2021 at 09:35

Nice work!

I performed violuric acid preparation from alloxan hydrate and hydroxylamine HCl yesterday, but it appears that my alloxan sample is quite degraded, and reaction did not yield any acid crystals, but the yellow solution turns pink-ish when sodium hydroxide is added.

I will try to purify alloxan hydrate and try again in upcoming days.

Ormarion - 4-9-2021 at 10:36

Just a little correction, this isn't dimethylaniline violurate wich is blue, it is piperidine :) but thanks for sharing my pictures

h0lx - 31-10-2021 at 09:55

All the violurates I made sans the aminoguanidine which I fogot to add to the pic, that I managed to make with the 3g OP sent me. Will continue the exploratioin of those compounds soon

from left:

ortho toluidine
triethylamine
methylamine
guanidine
3,5-dimethylpyrazole
2-amino-4,6-dimethylpyrimidine
pyridine
triethanolamine
ethanolamine
ammonia
ethylenediamine

IMG_7115.jpg - 1.1MB

RustyShackleford - 19-11-2021 at 11:18

Im back with analysis results from 1H, 13C and FTIR :D

orange = sample, blue = bruker spectra. a respectable fit i think, good enough to confirm the compound
FTIR_comparison.jpg - 194kB

Zoom-ins
FTIR_high_comparison.jpg - 180kB
FTIR_low_comparison.jpg - 288kB

1H performed in DMSO-d6, OH peak probably gone due to water in solvent.
1H.png - 1000kB
evidence of water in the solvent, the DMSO turned blue at the bottom.
IMG_0059.jpg - 1.5MB

13C. was not soluble enough to provide a good sample solution with chloroform nor DMSO.
13C.png - 1.3MB

Ormarion - 1-5-2022 at 06:51

Last violurate made

Pink one is B rhodamine
Blue is tributylamine
Red/brown is haematoporphyrin (powder form look deep green)

I am currently making a video on barbituric and violuric acis synth

Screenshot_20220430-190430_Gallery.jpg - 314kB 20220430_181323.jpg - 3.6MB 20220430_184545.jpg - 3.6MB



[Edited on 1-5-2022 by Ormarion]

SuperOxide - 1-5-2022 at 09:33

Quote: Originally posted by Ormarion  
Last violurate made

Pink one is B rhodamine
Blue is tributylamine
Red/brown is haematoporphyrin (powder form look deep green)

I am currently making a video on barbituric and violuric acis synth


Those are great! I plan on making some of the same products eventually. They look too amazing to not try.

Bezaleel - 9-5-2022 at 01:01

Quote: Originally posted by Ormarion  
Last violurate made

Pink one is B rhodamine
Blue is tributylamine
Red/brown is haematoporphyrin (powder form look deep green)

I am currently making a video on barbituric and violuric acis synth
[Edited on 1-5-2022 by Ormarion]
I'm looking forward to seeing that video

kmno4 - 12-5-2022 at 14:55

Quote: Originally posted by Boffis  

Guano -> uric acid -> alloxan -> alloxan-5-oxime (violuric acid)

Hm....
There is very old reference (see "Uric acid" at Wikipedia), describing uric acid formation from glycine and urea*.
If it really works, then it makes preparation of VA very cheap, even if total yield of this multistep synthesis is low. I have ordered some larger amount of glycine to test this UA preparation, just for fun.
But maybe someone here already tried this ?
* it is hard to imagine exact machanism of this high temperature reaction, but it seems that it has something to do with Strecker degradation.

ps. playing with guano is not my cup of tea

[Edited on 13-5-2022 by kmno4]

Boffis - 13-5-2022 at 03:42

Woow its a while since I posted that.

Like you say if you can make uric like the paper describes it would be excellent even if not very efficient. The original paper doesn't state the yield.

The di-potassium and di-sodium salts are fairly soluble in a small excess of the same caustic alkali and then the free acid ppt'd with dilute HCl or sulphuric acid. The mono-sodium salt can be ppt'd by sodium bicarbonate. So it may be possible to avoid the precipitation with silver and the H2S treatment. The solubility of free uric acid is very low unless certain organic bases are present. Dont overheat the solution or heat for long periods, this decomposes the uric acid.

For those that don't have access to the paper or can't read German I have attached a quick translation.

@kmno4; What's wrong with the Peruvian bird guano? The stuff sold as an organic fertilizer is sterilized and the uric acid concentration is >20%.

Attachment: Preparation of Uric acid Monatshefte Horboczawski 1882 English.docx (14kB)
This file has been downloaded 176 times

kmno4 - 16-5-2022 at 03:13


I have received the parcel, full of chemical goods :D
I do not trust mentioned paper very much, it looks more like patent, but not scientific publication. I could not find any more paper with confirmation of the procedure by Horbaczewski.
It is the simplest one, among the others, much more complicated methods of UA preparations - and no-one exploits it ....
But I have now 250 g of glycine to waste, we will see:P
I am going to use hot air gun, instead of ancient metal bath.

ps_1. this extremelly low solubility of UA, compound with very polar molecules, still surprises me, hah.

ps_2. preparation of barbituric acid from malonic acid, urea and Ac2O in AcOH is in my reach at once but I want to try UA method, just for (scientific) fun.

[Edited on 16-5-2022 by kmno4]

Boffis - 16-5-2022 at 05:33

Hi kmno4, The paper is very old and is very much on a par for the period I would say, having looked at many old papers from this period. I am quite sure the results will be reproducible, the problem is that it may not be uric that is produced, he also doesn't give a yield either! I suspect that isocyanuric acid is also produced along with diketopiperazines and, in order to produce uric acid, a lot of ammonia would need to be expelled so guanidine is another possible byproduct. The isocyanuric acid may be difficult to remove from the uric acid. I would try it myself but I am currently away from home.

The low solubility of uric acid is almost certainly due to the many potential hydrogen bonding sites on the molecule.

Please let us know how you get on.

Ormarion - 19-5-2022 at 22:23

And there you go, new video on barbituric and violuric acid synth, if anyone speak french here feel free to add subtitles i don't really have time from my side

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TN8tew9xg6A

LeLaborantin - 20-5-2022 at 01:04

Quote: Originally posted by Ormarion  
And there you go, new video on barbituric and violuric acid synth, if anyone speak french here feel free to add subtitles i don't really have time from my side

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TN8tew9xg6A


Un grand merci pour ta vidéo que je viens de regarder !

Continue a en faire plein ^^

kmno4 - 20-5-2022 at 03:23

Quote: Originally posted by Boffis  
Please let us know how you get on.

Unfortunately - nothing interesting to report.
Start: urea 50g, glycine 5g
Hot air gun heating works perfecly, the rection goes as described in the paper: melting, a lot of gases, the mixture slowly turns yellow, orange and finally deeply red, at some instant it becomes turbid and heting was stopped. The post-reaction mixture becomes bright yellow brown and is semi-solid even below 100 C.
After cooling, urea, biuret etc... was washed out with water, keeping pH ~ 3. Finally, about 9g of bright brown, not crystalline, powder was obtained. It surely a mixture, expected amount of UA is no more than 5 g. Unfortunaly, further attempts to purify is somehow gave nothig. I ended up with ~5 g of the same looking powder. It is soluble in KOH solution, giving deeply yellow, practically red solution. When acid is added, a lot of semi-jelly yellowish-grown precipitade is formed.
It does not look as UA, pity.... Besides, if cyanuric acid is present, it would be hard to separate out.
I am going to try to "do something" with it, but I doubt if UA is formed in this reaction at all.

kmno4 - 21-5-2022 at 12:12

Quote: Originally posted by kmno4  
... I doubt if UA is formed in this reaction at all.


Final test, to prove (or not) this bull*t and lose no more time for it.
Oxidation to alloxan by KClO3/HCl, according to reference no.3 given here :
http://www.orgsyn.org/demo.aspx?prep=cv3p0037
About 5 g of prepared powder was taken to reaction. Effects are going to be reported very soon :)
.....................
Effects: no alloxan is formed. So, good bye UA from glycine and urea - without regret :D

[Edited on 22-5-2022 by kmno4]

Violuric acid salts (fantastic colors and variety)

Cakethegrate - 2-3-2023 at 14:18

Hey everyone, I'm new here, so apologies if I mess up this post.

I have been getting deep into violurates lately and would like to talk about a few things I've done with them, starting with a mostly otc synthesis to a derivative of violuric acid which makes colors at least as vibrant as the normal violuric acid, if not better in some cases, it is called 1,3-dimethylvioluric acid and I was able to make it with semi-decent yields in a few steps starting with caffeine. Which I will outline the procedure for below.

All that is happening in the reaction is an oxidative cleavage of caffeine to yield 1,3-DimethylAlloxan and Monomethylurea, however the desired product is the dimethylalloxan. Because this reaction is a little messy we need to isolate our dimethylalloxan by reducing it to generate its insoluble dimer, tetramethylalloxantin which will precipitate out of solution. The tetramethylalloxantin is then treated with RFNA to isolate the dimethylalloxan again which will crystallize out and can be treated with hydroxylamine which will install an oxime group on the position 5 of the ketone, which will yield the 1,3-dimethylvioluric acid.

I followed this procedure from illumina to obtain the tetramethylalloxan needed with just a few modifications: https://illumina-chemie.de/viewtopic.php?t=5375

Caffeine to Tetramethylalloxantin:
25g of caffeine is placed into a 2-neck 500ml round bottom flask with a condenser. With stirring on 35ml of conc HCl and 75ml of water is added to the caffeine until it is dissolved. The flask is warmed in a water bath kept at 50-55C and 10g of potassium chlorate is added in small portions over a period of 1.5-3 hours, patience is key for better yields and it is important to add the chlorate slowly with small additions, if you add too much at one time or add it too quickly it will overoxidize your product. Upon addition of the KClO3 the solution will turn yellow and a thick precipitate of 8-Chlorocaffeine will form which may make stirring difficult, it is reccommended to have a way to manually stir the solution if your stir bar becomes stuck. Small amounts of presumably Cl2 and ClO2 are formed, however the amount of the gases formed were very small for me and weren't too concerning. You can know when to add more chlorate based on how yellow your solution is, after a certain interval of time between additions of chlorate the solution becomes a more pale yellow which is when you can add more KClO3 in small increments. After most of the KClO3 is added the precipitate of 8-chlorocaffeine will dissolve, at the end of addition the solution is left to stir for 15-30 more minutes and air is blown through the warm solution for another 30 minutes to remove excess chlorine in solution. The reaction mixture is then cooled in an ice bath and the reflux condenser is exchanged for a dropping funnel with a solution of 14.1g SnCl2 in 20ml of 18% HCl, which is slowly dripped into the solution. After complete addition a white powder of tetramethylalloxantin begins to precipitate out. To increase the amount of precipitate 5ml of 35% H2O2 is added and the solution is stirred for another 30 minutes on the ice bath. The precipitate is then suction filtered to yield 12.4g of tetramethylalloxantin.

1,3-DimethylAlloxan monohydrate from TetramethylAlloxantin:
This reaction is surprisingly very clean and doesnt really require measuring in exact amounts, however you can also follow the procedure from orgsyn that kmno4 already posted: http://www.orgsyn.org/demo.aspx?prep=cv3p0037
I usually just measure out the desired amount of TetramethylAlloxantin, wet it slightly with distilled water, put it on a hotplate with stirring and heat the solution so it is slightly warm to the touch, then slowly pipette drops of fuming nitric acid. NO2 will evolve and the TetramethylAlloxantin quickly dissolves. Once all the TetramethylAlloxantin is dissolved and no more NO2 is generated the solution is taken off the hotplate and is cooled for over 10 hours. 1,3-DimethylAlloxan monohydrate crystallizes out during this time in large, clear/colorless crystals as seen here.

1,3-DimethylAlloxan.jpg - 290kB


1,3-DimethylVioluric Acid monohydrate from 1,3-DimethylAlloxan monohydrate:
2g(10.63 mmol) of 1,3-DimethylAlloxan is dissolved in 3-4ml of distilled water and 0.87g(12.5mmol) of Hydroxylamine HCl is added with heating and stirring. After ~5-10 minutes a large amount of 1,3-DimethylVioluric acid crashes out. The reaction mixture was then cooled and filtered off to yield 2.241g of white/cream colored 1,3-DimethylVioluric Acid monohydrate.

To make the salts the 1,3-DimethylVioluric Acid is dissolved in ethanol and an equimolar amount of the base is added, the salt will typically immediately precipitate upon addition of the base.

To prove that I have made the 1,3-DimethylVioluric Acid I made the Potassium salt which can be seen below.

Potassium 1,3-DimethylViolurate.jpg - 317kB

Anyways, this post is getting a little long, so I should probably end it here, but as a side note I have also made about 12 amino-acid violurates, most of which haven't been made before, so if you would like to see another post about those let me know.

[Edited on 2-3-2023 by Cakethegrate]

j_sum1 - 2-3-2023 at 14:46

Love to see the pix.
Attach the file as an attachment: the button can be found when you click "edit post" or "preview post".

And yes, we would love to see the amino acid acid salts.


[Edited on 2-3-2023 by j_sum1]

RustyShackleford - 3-3-2023 at 11:56

Absolutely post the pictures of all the stuff youve made!
Being able to create Violuric acid (/dimethyl) from a much more accessible starting material is tremendous! especially for the Americans out there for whom I've heard barbituric acid is quite difficult to get.

Cakethegrate - 6-3-2023 at 14:22

Hey everyone, I'm back with more pictures :D. This time I will be uploading photos of the amino acid violurates and 1,3-dimethylviolurates(most of which are new), along with the basic procedure I did to make most of them.

Procedure from violuric acid monohydrate:
.5g(2.86mmol) violuric acid monohydrate is dissolved in 50ml of warm EtOH. To this solution, an equimolar amount of amino acid/amine is dissolved in a minimal amount of water then added to the solution of violuric acid monohydrate, many of the organoammonium salts precipitate immediately, which can then be filtered off, however if it is soluble it will typically be boiled down to around half the original volume then cooled until the salt is completely precipitated.

The reason I use ethanol as a solvent instead of water is because of a few reasons. The first is of course that the solution will evaporate down easier and quicker without as much risk of the organoammonium salt decomposing(which is much easier to do in water, many organoammonium violurates decompose at around 75C). The second reason is because the solubilities are much better to deal with in ethanol. In water most organoammonium violurates are very soluble and often require being boiled down to near dryness to obtain the salt whereas with ethanol that is almost never the case and typically the organoammonium salts will precipitate in ethanol with relative ease.

Anyways, here are the amino-acid violurates as promised. (From left to right) Is Alanine Violurate, Arginine Violurate, Asparagine Violurate, Aspartic Acid Violurate, Histidine Violurate, Isoleucine Violurate, Lysine Violurate, Methionine Violurate, Phenylalanine Violurate, Proline violurate, Threonine Violurate, and Valine Violurate.

I especially like the colors of the Lysine, Phenylalanine, Valine, Histidine, and Arginine salts. If anyone wants any of the violurates absorbance spectra(in water) I can provide that upon request.


Alanine Violurate.jpg - 744kB Arginine Violurate.jpg - 895kB Asparagine Violurate.jpg - 827kB Aspartic Acid Violurate.jpg - 926kB Histidine Violurate.jpg - 832kB Isoleucine Violurate.jpg - 904kB Lysine Violurate.jpg - 1.2MB Methionine Violurate.jpg - 1.1MB Phenylalanine Violurate.jpg - 841kB Proline Violurate.jpg - 776kB Threonine Violurate.jpg - 933kB Valine Violurate.jpg - 988kB

Here are a few amino acid salts made with the 1,3-Dimethylvioluric acid, its interesting how different the same amino acid violurates and dimethylviolurates can be, those two methyl groups seem to make a surprising difference. so far I have noticed that the amino acid dimethylviolurates tend to be more shifted towards the blue/green end of the spectrum rather than the red/pinkish that seems typical for the normal amino acid violurates. I'm planning on making the dimethylammonium
1,3-dimethylviolurate salt(I know, a lot of methyl in the name lol) however, I haven't gotten around to it yet.

In order from left to right is Proline 1,3-Dimethylviolurate, Phenylalanine 1,3-Dimethylviolurate, Niacin 1,3-Dimethylviolurate, Tryptophan 1,3-Dimethylviolurate, and Leucine 1,3-Dimethylviolurate.

Proline(Me2VIO).jpg - 267kB phenylalanine(Me2VIO).jpg - 820kB Niacin(Me2VIO).jpg - 891kB Tryptophan(Me2VIO).jpg - 540kB
Leucine(Me2VIO).jpg - 991kB

Also, if anyone happens to have some theobromine lying around, you can use it to make methylvioluric acid (monomethyl derivative of violuric acid) using essentially the same procedure as I described in my last post to make 1,3-dimethylvioluric acid from caffeine, as shown in the paper below, sorry it's in German.

Attachment: biltz1912.pdf (819kB)
This file has been downloaded 69 times

Blitz_methylalloxan.PNG - 146kB

[Edited on 6-3-2023 by Cakethegrate]

Lion850 - 12-3-2023 at 00:14

Thanks for the pictures, beautiful.

Ormarion - 14-3-2023 at 12:41

Hey everyone hope you doing alright. I recently wanted to share some of the pics of thiovioluric acid i made after talking about it with Cakethegrate, i used exactly the same procedure as i made a video about to make the barbituric acid but replacing urea with thiourea. Synthesis seemed faster too as well as for the thiovioluric acid (it is also way less soluble in water than violuric acid).
To make those thioviolurate i dissolved the acid in warm acetone and slowly added the base , and then let it stirred for a bit.
I recommend you do not heat them as when i tried for some they decomposed releasing stinky sulfur smell.

Im not rly aware about how to share pics on post already made and as there is quite a lot of pics here is a little google drive link to look at them, enjoy and feel free to ask anything :3
(if im braveenough i might try making the selenium and tellurium ones)

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1gM-DAlawAKPvivxLLaQt...

Osmiridium - 14-3-2023 at 15:26

Very fascinating and beautiful these violuric acid salts! Something I will certainly do aswell.

So cool your thiovioluric acid salts, Ormarion!
I would be very interested in the selenium and tellurium derivates.

j_sum1 - 14-3-2023 at 16:23

Welcome to the board, Osmiridium.

I am curious at this point -- what is it about this particular anion that gives rise to such a range of different colours. This is unusual behaviour.

Cakethegrate - 18-3-2023 at 16:47

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  

I am curious at this point -- what is it about this particular anion that gives rise to such a range of different colours. This is unusual behaviour.


Hey j_sum, that is a very good question that I would love to attempt to explain/answer, apologies for the slightly late response.

Color may seem very simple in concept, however when you take into consideration as to what is actually happening at a molecular level and what causes these colors it tends to become very tricky...

Violuric acid and its derivatives are very interesting and peculiar in many ways, for example, it very often forms supramolecular compounds, especially its organoammonium salts, which entail vast networks of complex hydrogen bonded networks. It is also a chelating acid which can be either monodentate, bidentate, or tridentate(depending on the counterion that it is reacted with) and has many different chelating modes which I will show with the structures below

Violurate_Coordination_modes.PNG - 41kB

The colors of the exact same violurate salt will often even be different colors or shades completely depending on reaction conditions, ie how it is precipitated, the pH of the solution when it is precipitated, what solvent the reaction is carried out in etc.

All of these factors can take a big part in the colors of violurates, however, it is even more important to take into consideration what is happening when you are forming a violurate salt. It is clear that it is the salt formation that is at least partially responsible for its color, as the violuric acid itself is colorless. The factor that I believe to be most responsible for the vast and vibrant colors of the violurates has to do with violuric acid's tautomerism and intermolecular interactions.

If you have ever made violurates before you have likely noticed a very odd interaction happens when the colorless acid is dissolved in water(or any protic solvent for that matter), it immediately turns the solution a very pleasing pastel pink color. I have heard many people think that this sudden color change is due to some sort of contamination being introduced, as the violuric acid is seemingly reacting with nothing, however that is not true. This light pink color is in actuality caused by the proton from the oxime(NOH) tautomerizing to one of the surrounding two ketones creating a nitroso group(N=O), and a COH group, as seen below.

Violuric_Acid_Tautomerism.PNG - 28kB

This more acidic nitroso-enol tautomer is indeed also responsible for the color that we observe with violurates. If you were to make a violurate salt that was only composed of a salt made from the normal oximino-keto form, it would likely be colorless, yellow or a dim orange.

Salt_of_Oximino-Keto_Form.PNG - 11kB Salt_of_Nitroso-Enol_Form.PNG - 11kB

Normally this more colorful, acidic, and strained nitroso-enol form is not favored(which is why it doesn't exist/isn't observed in the solid state in violuric acid and it is definitely the less occurrent tautomer when dissolved in water, though enough is still formed in solution to produce an observable color change) When a base is added to the solution on the other hand, this pushes the equillibrium towards the more strained, yet more acidic nitroso-enol form. Naturally, because of the nitroso-enol form's strain, it completely alters the absorbance of the salt that is formed, which equates to the highly varied and vibrant colors that we all know and love.

Anyways, if you have any questions or confusion that you would like to have cleared up, I would love to answer them.

-Cake <3

DraconicAcid - 18-3-2023 at 18:56

Those last two structures you've drawn aren't tautomers, but resonance structures, and you can't convince me that they'll have different colours.

j_sum1 - 18-3-2023 at 21:39

Let me paraphrase and see if I have this right.

The colour of volurate salts come from the conjugated double bonds when it resonates into an enolic form. The precise hue depends on both the geometry and the strength of the cation. The geometry is further affected by the possibility of differing chelation states and may also be affected by variations in crystalline structure arising from the conditions under which it crystallised.

I am not sure whether to agree with DA that we are talking about resonance not tautomerism here. Tautomerism involves movement of protons with the solvent as an intermediary in my understanding.
The ketone structure does not jump out at me as one that is likely to be coloured. But that could well be my ignorance.

Cakethegrate - 18-3-2023 at 21:44

Yeah, my mistake, what I was trying to show with the last two are the different salts that would form resulting from the tautomerization, even though the bonding is certainly more complex than that. Trust me, the last two would very much be different colors, although nitroso compounds are often very unstable and carcinogenic, they also have some of the most vibrant and beautiful colors resulting from this instability, again, because of the strained bonds. Whereas the oxime normally isn't a very colorful group. It is well known that the compounds which have true and stable nitroso bonds(N=O) are often very colorful and vibrant, and is known to influence compounds absorbance greatly, whereas the oxime one moiety(=N-O) which would otherwise be formed is typically colorless. So yes, their colors would be very different, because bond strain matters a lot with the colors of violurates. The crystallographic studies on violurates only proves this and that when reacting violuric acid with a base, it is the nitroso-enol tautomer that is forming the salt which is what gives violurates their color. I would recommend reading these papers that mention this phenomenon with violurates.

https://journals.iucr.org/m/issues/2019/02/00/yc5016/index.h...
To quote this paper:

"The material designed in our group and chosen for this study –
tyraminium violurate – is an example of how chromic effects
can be tuned through co-crystallization. Both components,
tyramine (TYR) and violuric acid (VA), are colourless solids
and only when combined form colourful multicomponent
systems. Multicomponent materials containing neutral violuric
acid molecules (ketone–oxime form) either lack colour or
form e.g. light yellow or orange crystals. The more acidic
nitroso–enol form of violuric acid is believed to be formed in
solution prior to a reaction between violuric acid and a base"

https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2016/dt/c6dt0...

Edit: Sorry I wrote this post before I saw yours j_sum, and my reply was in response to DA, and yes, all papers I have read claims it is tautomerism, this is supported based on the fact that the violuric acid changes color(from the shifting of the protons) only in solution, and is colourless in the solid state. So the solvent is an intermediary and plays a large role in the color of the violurates, and it even matters which solvent you use.

Also, I dont believe the ketone form to be colorful either, I think it is the niitroso-enol form that is the main reason for the violurates color. However my view could certainly be wrong, but the literature I have found on it seems to support it. Your paraphrasal of my proposal is also very good lol, thanks for helping with clarity.

Any constructive criticism is appreciated.

[Edited on 19-3-2023 by Cakethegrate]

Osmiridium - 19-3-2023 at 04:01

Many thanks Cakethegrate for the good and thorough explanation!

Well, I try to explain my opinion regarding tautomerism. It's actually a very good and important question.

This is clearly tautomerism. Why: Tautomerism is a special form of isomerism. So we have actually two different compounds that may also have different properties and show different behavior like e.g. colors but with the same empirical formula. But what classifies tautomerism is that one tautomeric isomer transforms relatively easy into the other but the molecule has to rearrange and is different as such and oxidation states usually change.
Sometimes the tautomers cannot be separated at all, sometimes one of them is more stable under certain conditions and the "pure substance" consists of only one of them. Best example is the keto-enol tautomerism where the keto form is usually (not always) more stable.
In this case the hydrogen atom (or the negative charge) changes its location to a different atom. That's what happens with violuric acid.

Resonance structures on the other side try do depict a more complex reality that could not be drawn by one single simple formula in certain cases with delocalized charges. Or you draw it as a so called hybrid structure. But the most important to note there is: It's always about the same molecule with identical properties and the oxidation states do not change (we have even kind of partial oxidation states, the concept of oxidation states is only a model anyway). Most prominent examples are aromatic compounds like benzene or the carbonate anion and so on.

DraconicAcid - 19-3-2023 at 09:09

The two forms of the acid are clearly tautomers.
files.php.jpg - 8kB
You've moved the hydrogen from one oxygen to another.

Once you take that hydrogen off, then the negative charge gets delocalized, and you have resonance structures. It's not tautomerism- you're not moving any atoms around. That's just resonance.

I wonder if anyone has done crystal structures of these violurates to see if the bond lengths change with cations and colour....
Well, from the papers cited above, they've obviously done crystal structures...I just wonder if they've come up with an explanation for the different colours that I can understand.

[Edited on 19-3-2023 by DraconicAcid]

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