Sciencemadness Discussion Board - CBD as a chemotherapy agent (split from CBD solubility in organic solvents)

CBD as a chemotherapy agent (split from CBD solubility in organic solvents)

macckone - 11-10-2021 at 08:36

https://www.nwsci.com/customer/docs/SKUDocs/RMR/Technical%20...

Pure cbd is used as a chemo agent with all of the usual problems associated with chemotherapy, nausea, vomiting, potential liver damage, etc. Canabinoids at high concentrations over an extended period of time even have their own specific illness:

https://www.cedars-sinai.org/health-library/diseases-and-con...

THC and CBD are relatively benign drugs but they are still drugs and can have side effects.
They still have a much better theraputic margin than many common drugs like ibuprofen and acetominophen (paracetamol)

unionised - 11-10-2021 at 09:04

Quote: Originally posted by macckone

Pure cbd is used as a chemo agent with all of the usual problems associated with chemotherapy, nausea, vomiting, potential liver damage, etc.

can you evince that?

stoichiometric_steve - 12-10-2021 at 04:19

Quote: Originally posted by macckone

Pure cbd is used as a chemo agent with all of the usual problems associated with chemotherapy

Really…

Quote: Originally posted by macckone

THC and CBD are relatively benign drugs but they are still drugs and can have side effects.
They still have a much better theraputic margin than many common drugs like ibuprofen and acetominophen (paracetamol)

…as is quite typical for chemotherapeutic agents /s

macckone - 12-10-2021 at 07:14

One link, there is a ton of information about CBD for chemotherapy but it is still in trials.
https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/treatment/cam/hp/cannabi...

CBD has not been approved but at high doses it kills rapidly dividing cells, which is what chemo agents do. It causes nausea and vomiting as well as cell death in the intestinal lining. The trials are really promising for colon cancer which is of particular interest to me as colon cancer survivor. It is one of the most promising new chemotherapy agents for colon cancer out there.

The new phenomenon of the canabanoid syndrome seems to be somewhat akin to withdrawal.
Ie, long term high dose use does cause a change in the gut. But unless you are smoking the really strong stuff close to 24/7 you are unlikely to get it. I provided a link in the previous post.

stoichometric_steve, do not confuse smoking pot with drug level doses used for chemotherapy. CBD has other uses, ie epilepsy, where the safety margin is really good. THC is an anti-nausea medication for chemo. I still have some in the refrigerator, but at high doses it can literally have the opposite effect. You start mucking about with nerve receptors and weird shit happens. You are unlikely to OD on pot, but when you start taking edibles and actual time release medication it gets trickier.

The safety margin of paracetamol is one of the lowest of any drug on the market. And it is OTC. Take too much and you get severe liver damage. That is extremely well documented.

unionised - 12-10-2021 at 09:20

You seem to be muddling two ideas of chemotherapy.
Yes CBD is used (experimentally) in the treatment of cancer and it's a chemical (rather then surgery or radiotherapy) so that makes it chemotherapy.

But it's not the same sort of chemical that causes "all of the usual problems associated with chemotherapy, nausea, vomiting, potential liver damage, etc." in the way that vincristine or Chlormethine does.

Herr Haber - 12-10-2021 at 09:48

Quote: Originally posted by macckone

Canabinoids at high concentrations over an extended period of time even have their own specific illness:
https://www.cedars-sinai.org/health-library/diseases-and-con...

Very interesting. Big thanks for sharing that.
I have been on sick leave on 5 occasions (20 days total...) this year alone vomiting my guts every 10 minutes. I dont smoke as much as I used to, apparently less than described but this is nevertheless very interesting.
Thank you for sharing that, again.

[Edited on 12-10-2021 by Herr Haber]

macckone - 12-10-2021 at 10:09

It does cause nausea and vomiting and cell death of rapidly dividing cells. That is how chemotherapy works. It isn't magic. It is literally toxic to the type of cells found in colon cancer, while less toxic to other cells.

I don't know what the liver damage probability is, but it is listed as a side effect in the trial data. And there are animal studies showing liver damage.

Here is the info on the mouse study:

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/can-cbd-hurt-your-liv...

That study showed toxicity at 100mg/kg.

This article found toxicity at 61.5mg/kg.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6928757/

There is definitely hepatotoxicity, meaning in some percentage of the population at therapeutic doses, it will cause liver damage because some people are more sensitive than others.

It is also documented to show nausea and vomiting in the sativex trials but those were not considered serious side effects. That may also have some relationship to the method of administration, spray to the back of the throat.

unionised - 12-10-2021 at 10:31

Quote: Originally posted by macckone

It is also documented to show nausea and vomiting in the sativex trials but those were not considered serious side effects.

Whereas nausea and vomiting areconsidered serious side effects of conventional cancer chemotherapy.
So, as I said, it's not the same thing.

Tsjerk - 12-10-2021 at 10:51

@macckone: I don't see why toxicity and therapeutic range are relevant for a discussion about solubility of said compound.

What are you trying to say? CBD is toxic? We shouldn't think light of it? I don't get it. Any drug is toxic, any drug has a specific therapeutic range. Any drug probably will cause vomiting.

[Edited on 12-10-2021 by Tsjerk]

Texium - 12-10-2021 at 11:03

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk

@macckone: I don't see why toxicity and therapeutic range are relevant for a discussion about solubility of said compound.

Indeed. macckone, you totally hijacked this thread. Time to split.

S.C. Wack - 12-10-2021 at 13:56

Quote: Originally posted by macckone

https://www.nwsci.com/customer/docs/SKUDocs/RMR/Technical%20...

Pure cbd is used as a chemo agent with all of the usual problems associated with chemotherapy, nausea, vomiting, potential liver damage, etc. Canabinoids at high concentrations over an extended period of time even have their own specific illness:

https://www.cedars-sinai.org/health-library/diseases-and-con...

THC and CBD are relatively benign drugs but they are still drugs and can have side effects.
They still have a much better theraputic margin than many common drugs like ibuprofen and acetominophen (paracetamol)

Quote: Originally posted by macckone

It does cause nausea and vomiting and cell death of rapidly dividing cells. That is how chemotherapy works. It isn't magic. It is literally toxic to the type of cells found in colon cancer, while less toxic to other cells.

I don't know what the liver damage probability is, but it is listed as a side effect in the trial data. And there are animal studies showing liver damage.

Here is the info on the mouse study:

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/can-cbd-hurt-your-liv...

That study showed toxicity at 100mg/kg.

This article found toxicity at 61.5mg/kg.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6928757/

There is definitely hepatotoxicity, meaning in some percentage of the population at therapeutic doses, it will cause liver damage because some people are more sensitive than others.

It is also documented to show nausea and vomiting in the sativex trials but those were not considered serious side effects. That may also have some relationship to the method of administration, spray to the back of the throat.

Sativex is not CBD, and hyperemesis syndrome is presumably not caused by CBD, since you imply that it is.

It's a complete surprise that you of all people are cherry-picking erroneous citations instead of the actual reference, and are citing studies where the dosage is a bit unreasonable, as though such doses are comparable to acetaminophen use. To wit:

"In the sub-acute phase, the eight-week-old mice delivered orally daily doses of 0; 61.5; 184.5; or 615 mg/kg for 10 days. 75% of the mice instantly died at the 61.5 mg/kg dose"

is bullshit in no less than three different ways, as we shall see, as though evidence was needed of the post-truth nature of these times...

This is not to say that the cited Little Rock (Arkansas) U folk don't have an agenda, one can see right away...BTW their main focus is on giving mice the equivalent of 55 g of CBD (not including impurity and solvent weight) a day for 10 days, after finding that a single dose of 221 g was too much:

"Mice at 738 mg/kg and 2460 mg/kg groups developed a sub-lethargic condition which presented as decreased appetite and slow response to exogenous stimuli at 4–5 h after CBD administration. This was still evident in mice receiving the 2460 mg/kg dose at the 24 h time-point...

Shortly after the second gavage with CBD, overt toxicity manifested as profound lethargy, loss of appetite, and body weight loss was observed in 33% of animals (2 out of 6) in the 615 mg/kg group. Two more mice developed similar symptoms after the third gavage. Thus, the remaining four animals were terminated at the end of day 3 (6 h after the third CBD dose). The remaining mice in the 61.5 mg/kg and 184.5 mg/kg cohorts were gavaged as scheduled for 10 days and exhibited no visible signs of toxicity."

55, 66, and 221 g of CBD [whisper][along with 1600, 1900, and 6450 mg THC (effective dose: 5 mg)][/whisper] causes THC-like effects!!! ***STOP THE PRESSES***

[whisper]"Single administration of lower doses (246 mg/kg and 738 mg/kg CBD) caused only increases in liver-to-body weight ratios among the generally liver-focused toxicological responses measured...No measurable toxicological responses associated with liver injury were observed in mice gavaged with CBD at 184.5 mg/kg [daily, the equivalent of 16.6 g/d][/whisper]...In conclusion, the results of these studies demonstrate that, despite the beneficial effects of CBD in the treatment of certain therapy-resistant seizures, it poses a risk for liver injury."

"To our knowledge, the magnitude of such a response has not been observed in previous studies"

Can't come up with a reason why, except that everyone but them are ignorant...so, we should ban every drug that I can't safely take 55 g of daily (plus sesame oil and 40 g of other impurities including 3.6 g which is nearly identical molecularly, but not pharmacologically)?

Tsjerk - 12-10-2021 at 14:17

That are some impressive doses

what is that? 1000x normal dose? I really don't know anything about cannabinoids. In that range table salt would become lethal.

But really, when you see receptor mediated drugs going into the promille range you have to start wondering whether the effects you are seeing are receptor mediated.

macckone - 12-10-2021 at 15:34

SC Wack,
sativex is a combo of THC and CBD.
It is for epilepsy not chemotherapy.
And yes it caused nausea and vomiting.

The therapeutic dose varies depending on application.
Taking sativex, it is a combo drug of THC and CBD which is 2.5mg per actuation of cbd.
In trials they used 6 actuations serveral times a day and got nausea and vomiting.
Again it was not considered a 'severe side effect' and could be because of the way it is administered but it was more than placebo.
Now that is for epilepsy not chemo.

For epidiolex the dosage is higher and the official website lists the potential side effects:
https://ir.gwpharm.com/news-releases/news-release-details/ep...

EPIDIOLEX may cause liver problems. Your doctor may order blood tests to check your liver before you start taking EPIDIOLEX and during treatment. In some cases, EPIDIOLEX treatment may need to be stopped. Call your doctor right away if you start to have any of these signs and symptoms of liver problems during treatment with EPIDIOLEX:

loss of appetite, nausea, vomiting
fever, feeling unwell, unusual tiredness
yellowing of the skin or the whites of the eyes (jaundice)
itching
unusual darkening of the urine
right upper stomach area pain or discomfort

It is up to 20mg/kg for resistant epilepsy according to the studies.

Devinsky O., Cross J.H., Wright S. Trial of Cannabidiol for Drug-Resistant Seizures in the Dravet Syndrome. N. Eng. J. Med. 2017;377:699–700. doi: 10.1056/NEJMoa1611618.

Thiele E.A., Marsh E.D., French J.A., Mazurkiewicz-Beldzinska M., Benbadis S.R., Joshi C., Lyons P.D., Taylor A., Roberts C., Sommerville K., et al. Cannabidiol in patients with seizures associated with Lennox-Gastaut syndrome (GWPCARE4): A randomised, double-blind, placebo-controlled phase 3 trial. Lancet. 2018;391:1085–1096. doi: 10.1016/S0140-6736(18)30136-3.

The instantly died at 61.5mg/kg is incorrect, according the the original study.
They put the . in the wrong place, the original is 615mg/kg.
And yes that is a lot of anything to be eating.
Yes I should have dug down to the original study.

Original study:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6539990/

The original question I was responding to is why you don't see crystalline CBD sold.
Taking a couple of grams at a time is not going to end well.

For a 50kg person, 20mg/kg is 1000mg or 1gram. Which is the same amount of drug as paracetamol. The safety profile is not that different but it is better than paracetamol.

It is perfectly possible to compound it into pill form instead of 'oil' which is an impure extract.
I believe the Epidiolex is purified using vacuum distillation, but they don't describe how it is made on the website.

So in conclusion even the people that are making money selling epidiolex acknowledge that very high doses can lead to liver issues. And the list of side effects for the drug is pretty consistent with other drugs.

Note that the chemotherapy levels are even higher.

S.C. Wack - 12-10-2021 at 17:24

Quote: Originally posted by macckone

SC Wack,
sativex is a combo of THC and CBD.
It is for epilepsy not chemotherapy.
And yes it caused nausea and vomiting.

In other words, it's not CBD.
It's for MS not epilepsy.
And no it does not cause nausea and vomiting.

Quote: Originally posted by macckone

For epidiolex the dosage is higher and the official website lists the potential side effects:

Is hyperemesis syndrome on there? "Between January 15, 2014 and January 15, 2015, one clinical trial of CBD enrolled 214 patients (aged 1–30 years) with severe, intractable, childhood-onset, treatment-resistant epilepsy, who were receiving stable doses of antiepileptic drugs before study entry. Oral CBD doses (open label study) of 2–5 mg/kg/day (Epidiolex®, GW Pharma) were up-titrated until intolerance or to a maximum dose of 25 mg/kg or 50 mg/kg/day (dependent on study location and protocol). The adverse events experienced in greater than 10% of the 162 patients in the safety and tolerability analysis were (in order of decreasing frequency) somnolence, decreased appetite, diarrhea, fatigue and convulsion. Serious adverse events occurred in 48 patients (30%), including one sudden unexpected death in epilepsy regarded as unrelated to study drug, and 20 (*12%) patients had severe adverse events possibly related to CBD use, the most common of which was status epilepticus."

How does one explain the FDA approval of Marinol for chemotherapy-related nausea? Not to cause it, but to get rid of it? Not to mention AIDS nausea etc etc.

Quote: Originally posted by macckone

The instantly died at 61.5mg/kg is incorrect, according the the original study.
They put the . in the wrong place, the original is 615mg/kg.

They didn't die at any dose, instantly or otherwise...they were KILLED (in an unspoken manner).

macckone - 13-10-2021 at 06:27

sativex does include nausea and vomiting as uncommon side effects.

hyperemesis is still being investigated but it is similar to side effects listed for marinol.

Having taken marinol for nausea, I can confirm that if you do not take it as prescribed it can cause nausea on its own. Having stoned people self medicate can lead to people taking pills because they forgot they take pills that cause people to forget they took pills. That is anecdotal but my oncologist confirmed that happens and do not do that.

Here are the side effects of marinol:
Side Effects

Dizziness, drowsiness, confusion, feeling "high", an exaggerated sense of well-being, lightheadedness, nausea, vomiting, or stomach/abdominal pain may occur as your body adjusts to the medication. If any of these effects persist or worsen, tell your doctor or pharmacist promptly.
https://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-9308/marinol-oral/details
side effects list are on the second page.

The stomach/abdominal pain is very similar to the reported syndrome.
Paradoxical effects in medications are not at all uncommon.

If you look at the original paper, they do say that animals died during the gavage.
Possibly as a result of inhaling liquid. I don't think it is relevant to the potential for liver damage which is listed as a side effect of the pure CBD medication.

Part of any analysis of a medication is determining what levels cause damage.
Even water will kill you if you take too much. In the water case, the mechanisms are well understood. In THC and CBD, the potential problems are still being discovered. THC does not appear to cause liver damage, CBD does. THC doesn't kill cancer cells, CBD does. It is interesting that taking CBD for epilepsy can cause dangerous episodes in some patients.

S.C. Wack - 13-10-2021 at 14:43

Quote: Originally posted by macckone

If you look at the original paper, they do say that animals died during the gavage.

Have you ever taken a drug and later realized that for a few hours, you were honest?

BTW from "Cannabidiol Adverse Effects and Toxicity" Curr Neuropharmacol. 2019 Oct; 17(10): 974–989

In humans receiving the drug for the treatment of epilepsies and psychiatric disorders, the most common AEs included tiredness, diarrhea, nausea, and hepatotoxicity. Overall, the incidence of these occurrences is low and, in comparison with other drugs employed for the treatment of these diseases, CBD has a better side effect profile.

No one will be taking any massive doses of CBD unless they grow it on a large scale. It's not cheap.

PS CBD is more bioavailable in mice than humans, making the above dosing even more insane.

For the treatment of cancers, it's probably best to inject cannabinoids natural or otherwise (although all unnatural unprescribed "cannabinoids" psychoactive or not are highly illegal in many cities/counties/states) as close to the affected area as possible, in some acceptable solvent.

[Edited on 13-10-2021 by S.C. Wack]

macckone - 14-10-2021 at 07:39

SC Wack,

We already established CBD has a good safety profile way back in the thread.

Way back in my first post:

"THC and CBD are relatively benign drugs but they are still drugs and can have side effects.
They still have a much better theraputic margin than many common drugs like ibuprofen and acetominophen (paracetamol)"

The chemotherapy doses are 'massive', ie. higher than for epilepsy, which does include 'massive' doses, ie 1000mg.

Chemotherapy is usually (but not always) an adjunct therapy after the tumor is removed to kill metastatic cells elsewhere. So injecting it 'close to the affected area' isn't really a thing outside of inoperable tumors. Having been through this personally (anecdotal but still relevant), anything that reduces side effects is going to be good for patients. Coding during treatment is not pleasant.

As for cost, CBD powder is $1450/kg and comes out to $1.45 a dose at 1000mg. Compared to something like oxaliplatin that is really cheap.

Crude CBD oil is about a pound per plant, that is somewhere around 10% CBD. Which is about 40g or so of pure CBD per plant. So no, you don't have to have a large scale operation to get a lot of CBD. A home grow operation in colorado allows 6 plants per adult. That comes out to 240g per adult of pure CBD. That is right at the limit of what a single adult can consume in relative safety. If you tried smoking that much weed, you wouldn't be doing much else.

Keeping in mind that a strain like harlequin is producing CBD:THC in a 5:2 ratio and there is a lot of crud in crude CBD oil.

S.C. Wack - 14-10-2021 at 15:48

I do wonder what treatment options are available for your cancer...everything you type is pathological disrepresentation.

What little CBD usage in human cancer there has been so far has actually involved injecting CBD into the area. BTW there are no cancer-related human clinical trials of CBD in the USA at this time. There is "A Long-term Safety Study to Assess the Potential for Chronic Liver Injury in Participants Treated With Epidiolex (Cannabidiol) Oral Solution"

PS if someone unlicensed to do so grows 6 <0.3% THC Cannabis plants indoors around here for any reason and anyone else finds out about it, they'll end up sentenced to 5-10 years in prison, or more if they say that it's for someone else. If there's children, they won't be seen again for a long time. A gun of any sort could turn the case federal (even bullets can get federal sentencing nowadays). Throw in An Extraction Lab!!!

(avg 6-plant indoor = 300-600 g total, x 10% / 100 d = 300-600 mg/d)

(kilos can actually be bought for less but I'm not talking about buying kilos)

clearly_not_atara - 14-10-2021 at 19:51

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk

That are some impressive doses

what is that? 1000x normal dose? I really don't know anything about cannabinoids. In that range table salt would become lethal.

Studies demonstrating effects of CBD in controlling tumors typically use incredibly high doses by the standards of a smoker. 300-600 mg seems common, where a typical CBD edible offers about 20 mg.

I've read a few of these studies and the gist that I've gotten is that very-high-dose CBD does produce some measurable amount of tumor control, but it doesn't generally eradicate tumors. Where it is promising is in the ability to extend life for patients where standard regimens have failed and the patient may not be able to tolerate other treatments; it works by a novel mechanism and evades the resistance that tumors build up to common antiproliferative agents. But it's more of a time-out than a Hail Mary.

The figure of merit for an antitumor medication is the differential cell toxicity, i.e. the toxic level for normal cells divided by the toxic level for tumor cells. While the therapeutic ratio for CBD in managing anxiety etc is very high, at cancer-relevant doses it becomes much lower.

For really promising cancer treatments, see e.g. halomon or bromopyruvate.

Sorry, I didn't really read the whole thread, but I've turned the hourglass plenty of times reading about cannabidiol and cancer. (I have recently been treated for cancer.)

unionised - 14-10-2021 at 23:49

You can either say
"THC and CBD are relatively benign drugs"
Or you can say
"Pure cbd is used as a chemo agent with all of the usual problems associated with chemotherapy".

But you can't say both.
Because the usual problems with chemotherapy drugs make them anything but "benign".

macckone - 15-10-2021 at 07:02

Unionized,

Dose is everything. That is why I included the word "RELATIVELY".

At 60mg a day they are benign.
Compared to something like oxaliplatin (FOLFOX treatment) at 85mg/week, they are relatively benign.
when taken pure in chemo quantities 1000+mg a day, they are like every other chemotherapy.
They also have better safety profiles, ie. THC will not kill you as far as anyone has been able to determine.
And CBD has a better safety profile than paracetamol for liver damage but not for nausea and vomiting.

SC Wack,

FOLFOX is the standard treatment for colon cancer (leucovorin, fluorouracil and oxaliplatin).
I can no longer have that treatment if I have a recurrence and the last half of my treatment was xeloda which is less effective but doesn't put me into cardiac and pulmonary arrest.
I was on a bunch of adjuvenant therapy with the xeloda and I got a ton of marinol generics during both phases.
Puking your guts out for over a year is not fun. And I mean that literally, you vomit up stomach lining.
The vomiting also destroys the enamel on your teeth too.
There are no currently licensed trials, of CBD only products for chemo. There was an off-label trial of sativex but the dose of THC was too high to get the CBD concentrations needed. It did prove effective in pain and nausea relief at lower doses than what was proposed as tumor suppression. I don't know if that every got fda approval as a 'use'.

clearly_not_atara,

Sorry about your bout with cancer. It sucks.
My only experience with halomon is living near the coast with red tide.
Breathing it sucks.

unionised - 15-10-2021 at 12:34

Quote: Originally posted by macckone

Unionized,

Dose is everything.

No, Therapeutic Index is everything.
And carcinolytics usually have really bad TI whereas CBD has a much better one.

as you say "THC will not kill you as far as anyone has been able to determine."
Well arsenic trioxide or cisplatin or whatever certainly will.
That really is a distinction.

Obviously, enough of anything, even water, will kill you.
I'm unaware of any data on human CBD lethality in a well controlled situation.
But there's quite good data on monkeys.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7052834/

They survived doses up to 300 mg/kg/day for 90 days equivalent to a total of nearly 2000 grams in a human. (No, I don't mean milligrams)

There were toxic effects that those doses, but no fatalities

That much acetaminophen would certainly kill you.

[Edited on 15-10-21 by unionised]

macckone - 16-10-2021 at 10:54

You clearly did not read that link thoroughly. The monkey study determined an ld50 of something a little over 210mg/kg and it was 9 days not 90

S.C. Wack - 16-10-2021 at 13:59

Everything is clear all right.

From the abstract:
"Ninety-day oral treatment with CBD (30-300 mg/kg) had little effect but liver and kidney weights rose 13-56% above controls without morphologic changes."

[Edited on 17-10-2021 by S.C. Wack]

macckone - 16-10-2021 at 14:35

In 1981, Rosenkrantz and Hayden investigated acute cannabinoid toxicity in rhesus monkeys following 150, 200, 225, 250, or 300 mg/kg intravenous (IV) CBD for 9 days [61]. The LD50 was 212 mg/kg CBD. Tremors were observed at all doses and CNS inhibition (depression, sedation, and prostration) was evident within 30 min

https://scholar.google.com/scholar_lookup?journal=Toxicol.+A...

[Edited on 16-10-2021 by macckone]

S.C. Wack - 16-10-2021 at 17:53

Which of course has nothing to do with what unionised said.

BTW if anyone knows, are heavy insoluble "nontoxic" oils still nontoxic when injected IV in such amounts?

karlos³ - 17-10-2021 at 00:09

Quote: Originally posted by S.C. Wack

Which of course has nothing to do with what unionised said.

BTW if anyone knows, are heavy insoluble "nontoxic" oils still nontoxic when injected IV in such amounts?

Do they not use glycols or such to solvate them?
I heard drug users used glycols for cannabinoid injections(not the classical ones like THC, but the similarly insoluble aminoalkylindoles).
But then again, animal tests are not designed for comfort.

unionised - 17-10-2021 at 06:01

Quote: Originally posted by macckone

You clearly did not read that link thoroughly. The monkey study determined an ld50 of something a little over 210mg/kg and it was 9 days not 90

Well, one of us didn't read it...

S.C. Wack - 17-10-2021 at 06:20

Quote: Originally posted by karlos³

Do they not use glycols or such to solvate them?

Cannabinoids were administered after solubilization in sesame oil for the oral route or as an aqueous emulsion for the iv route. The drug formulations used presently were developed for previous investigations and the vehicles and physical characteristics of the aqueous emulsion were shown not to contribute to toxic manifestations (Rosenkrantz et al., 1972). Aqueous formulations were prepared from a stock solution of cannabinoid in sesame oil (300-400 mg/ml): 5-7 ml of stock solution were sonicated with 0.5 ml Polysorbate 80 and 42-44 ml isotonic saline for 30-60 sec; final concentrations of ingredients were approximately 4% cannabinoid, 10% sesame oil, 1% Polysorbate 80, and 85% isotonic saline. Control emulsion contained no cannabinoid. Aqueous drug formulations were injected into the saphenous vein at a rate of 2 ml/min using a disposable syringe. For intragastric administration, appropriate volumes of stock solutions were introduced via a French catheter which was rinsed with 3 ml of sesame oil after delivery of drug.

I wouldn't think that solubilization in anything would last long IV. It's hard to believe that such an insoluble substance wouldn't cause problems. BTW sesame oil is polyunsaturated and has a lot of fatty acid in it.

[Edited on 17-10-2021 by S.C. Wack]

karlos³ - 17-10-2021 at 08:11

"as aqueous emulsion", uhm, that sounds similar to these depot injections they use for some pharmaceuticals, like antipsychotics for inmates and such.
Wouldn't the CBD, THC or whatever form a similar depot to those hardly soluble salts?
I mean, those are insoluble oils.
In case of these depot injections, designed to act weeks or even longer(no idea), the substance is at least somewhat soluble in the body fluids and will be gone after some time.
But in case of an insoluble substance... wouldn't the body just try to encapsulate it?

unionised - 17-10-2021 at 10:55

Quote: Originally posted by karlos³

"as aqueous emulsion", uhm, that sounds similar to these depot injections they use for some pharmaceuticals, like antipsychotics for inmates and such.

No it doesn't because

Quote: Originally posted by S.C. Wack

Cannabinoids were administered after solubilization in sesame oil for the oral route or as an aqueous emulsion for the iv route.

[Edited on 17-10-2021 by S.C. Wack]

Depot injections are given IM not IV

karlos³ - 17-10-2021 at 11:26

Alright, but it doesn't it clog up the venes similarly?
In those huge doses?

I know how strongly people can react on the soy oil emulsion in which propofol is given usually, and those are tiny amounts in comparison.
Its likely not the fault of the soy oil in special, I am sure sesame oil causes the same issues when injected as emulsion.

unionised - 17-10-2021 at 13:50

It's largely beside the point what reaction the vehicle produces.

"final concentrations of ingredients were approximately 4% cannabinoid, 10% sesame oil, 1% Polysorbate 80, and 85% isotonic saline. Control emulsion contained no cannabinoid."

macckone - 19-10-2021 at 07:57

The injection controls did not die. The IV cannabinoids died only at higher concentrations, hence the LD50 of over 210mg/kg.

unionised - 19-10-2021 at 09:03

It's interesting to see what else is in that ballpark (from wiki's page about LD 50) , though it's important to realise that most things are much more toxic if given IV than orally.

karlos³ - 19-10-2021 at 11:13

Yay, oral uranium is half as deadly as intravenous CBD!
I guess I'll stop having a breakfast fix of CBD and switch over to sprinkling uranium on my breakfast cereals :cool:

Ok well, given the recent price for CBD, this might be a cost issue, but taking oral uranium definitely looks better than pushing that viscous oil into my veins three times a day

I'll have to check and compare first...

[/sarcasmotic]

[Edited on 19-10-2021 by karlos³]

macckone - 19-10-2021 at 12:22

non-water soluble compounds tend to be more toxic as an IV because they are less readily absorbed via the gut.

The high end chemo drugs are usually given as IV.
Some stuff like xeloda is given in pill form but converts to the active form in the liver. Which was good for my treatment because stage 4 with liver involvement. However, it did liver damage and I am still dealing with that years later.

Fantasma4500 - 4-3-2022 at 05:37

i would disagree that less soluble compounds are more toxic- reference mercury, or even barium
i think theres definitely better means as heading to a hospital with cancer, im quite well un-educated on cancer, but ive heard many people who were well deep in it, even some university graduates who had the best of intentions that had to completely ditch it as a part of their life as they could see that they were simply keeping effective treatments away from the public with some bizarre monetary excuse
the best and most simple insights he gave was that zinc is very great against cancer, having low bodyfat- and even high muscle % will essentially make you incapable of getting cancer (most TYPES of cancer i assume) maybe unless you sip CCl4 as a hobby
ive heard also much critique on how they handle cancers, that they end up poking holes in cancer where they release all the toxins into peoples bodies
it is sad times and if you wanna live a healthy life, youre gonna have to first of all have a very calm mind as you will see many items around you are almost;.. weaponized.
they banned phthalate as additive, and right away they decided to make a polymer out of phthalate
i could go on, but it would just end up as a controversy bingo
as for CBD i can vouch for it- not in terms of cancer, but as pain relief with no seemingly CNS depressant activity, ive used it plentily for many different things others than just managing pain- its clear to me why CBD is controversial. because it works! quite unbelievably some times it would absolve the pain within mere seconds, and i have had others try it out for themselves too just to convince myself that it wasnt imagination.

this would also explain why non-psychoactive cannabis plants are entirely banned, its got nothing to do with better be safe than sorry, they simply want to keep this plant out of the publics hands as practically all these plants produce CBD
back in time animals were fed with different food and they ended up having CBD in their bodies
so the eggs, the milk, the meat- would end up having CBD in it, so you would quite oftenly end up with some very small dose of CBD on your plate

S.C. Wack - 4-3-2022 at 14:48

Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat

i would disagree that less soluble compounds are more toxic- reference mercury, or even barium

Feel free to self-administer mercury and barium sulfate IV then