Sciencemadness Discussion Board

LL8 from Dr. Liptakov

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Laboratory of Liptakov - 8-1-2022 at 06:00

Due to the unexpected properties of the examinate substance, I would like to start a new thread on his theme. And also because almost nothing but safe and comfortable initiation is addressed in energetic materials.The substance was gived working name LL8. Because CHP is closest to the new substance, it is used for comparison. Just like the notorious ETN.

Basic results are on two pictures. Output segment with high density was set on 400 mg. Starting DDT segment with low density set on 250 mg. Other space is filled classic BP to full height.
Density for output segments ETN in steel cavity 6/8 x 50 mm. = 1.75g /cm3 + - 0,03 g/cm3.
Density for output segment LL8 in steel cavity 6/8 x 50 mm. = 1.87g /cm3 + - 0,03 g/ cm3.
Density for output segment CHP in steel cavity 6/8 x 50 mm. = 1,56 g /cm3 + - 0,03 g/ cm3.
Density of LL8 / 250g which is use a like primary for all tests 1,4 - 1,6 g/cm3.
BP is pressed on cca 20 - 30 Kg.

pic5.jpg - 1.9MB
pic6.jpg - 694kB





Control measurement on pic.7,8 with exact output edges.

pic7.jpg - 243kB
pic8.jpg - 594kB

Differences between LL8 / CHP

1) LL8 is demonstrably more brizantely than CHP.
2) LL8 not releasing NH3 gas from molecule, is without smell.
3) LL8 can be mixed with metals and other EMs with less doubt.
4) LL8 has preparation procedure without ammonia water.

Properties which are same or similar for LL8 and CHP:

5) No hygroscopicity as free heap on air within days at laboratory huminidity.
6) Primarily - secondary energetic material.
7) Detonator must have metal cavity. (Soft cavities are in exam)
8) Friction sensitivity similar (exact values later, subjectively without accident)
9) Impact sensitivity similar (exact values later)
10) Burning on air only, without DDT, with speed similarly as quality BP
11) Not sensitive for over-pressing dead


Disadvantage LL8 against CHP:

1) Basic precursor HClO4 is usually expensive or unavailable. (Preparation HClO4 from NH4ClO4 available on LL pages YouTube)
2) Preparation Cu(ClO4)2 can be difficulty against preparation TACP.
3) Other method preparation Cu(ClO4)2 from else perchlorates salts not found. Experienced chemists can complement it.


Reagents for preparation:

Cu(ClO4)2 (hexahydrate)........2,4g
Hexamine ...............................0,6g
Ethanol commerce grade .......1,5g
H2O distiled.............................0,5g

Preparation:
Mixing CuP and hexamine on inert surface at 20 C with Ethanol and distil water.

porridge.jpg - 1.1MB


Make the fine slurry. Pour slurry on inert surface 70 - 80 C. Evaporate EtOH+H2O and make the grain using a 1x1 mm sieve. Notice: During evaporate arises gas which irritate eyes and nose, same effect a like at second glue. Ventilation recommended.
Drying 20 minute on inert surface at 50 - 80 C.

surface 80.jpg - 1.1MB



Final color after drying on picture:

colors LL8.jpg - 731kB



Cu(ClO4)2 can be prepared, Method 1:

Heate solution CuO + HClO4 of 40% conc. with 2O% exces CuO for 80 C. Wait on pH 4. Neutralize by drop of ammonia water for pH near neutral. Cooling on zero C. Can arised small amount NH4ClO4 which crystallize firstly. Separate exces CuO+NH4ClO4 on filter. Evaporate (blue transparent) solution at 100 C on inert plate. (Tested,works in det.)

Method 2:

Heate solution of HClO4 (30 - 40% conc.) at 20 C and add CuCO3 in small portions. Arises CO2. Add exces 20% CuCO3 until to zero bubble CO2. At 20C.
Heate on 80C and wait on pH 4. Neutralize by drop of ammonia water for pH near neutral. Cooling on zero C. Arise small amount NH4ClO4 which crystallized firstly. Separe exces CuCO3+NH4ClO4 on paper filter. Evaporate water from solution at 100 C on inert plate.(prepared,works in det.)

Solubility NH4CLO4 11,5g in 100g H2O at zero C.
Solubility Cu(ClO4)2 . 6H2O...146g in 100g H2O at 30C, melting point 82 C as hexahydrate.

Tested also in different ratios, results on witness plate: (without picture)
CuP : HEX
50 : 50 = failed, flat steel
70 : 30 = failed, slight bending of steel only
80 : 20 = best results, bigest hole
85 : 15 = good results, but smaller hole


Test for stability LL8 in detonator. One detonator filled before 14 days and storage. Second detonator filled after 14 days, from else batch, but with two identical design and conditions. Result on pic9.

pic9.jpg - 332kB


Detail preparation LL8 and basic properties published from today without the right to a reward or patenting. For all researchers of science madness free.

Dr. Liptakov.......:cool:

karolus28 - 8-1-2022 at 08:17

mysteroius bhoice makes copper chlorate by membrane electrolysis, maybe would work using sodium perchlorate instead of chlorate? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fdst_kxZL2Y

MineMan - 8-1-2022 at 17:49

Very Cool!!

Why cannot potassium perchlorate be used? What is special about copper perchlorate? Why not ammonium perchlorate?

What about ammonium perchlorate and guanidine or creatine nitrate?

Laboratory of Liptakov - 9-1-2022 at 01:22

The Cu (ClO4) 2 used was found to still contain the HClO4 from which it was made. The residual acid, together with Cu (ClO4) 2 together with hexamine, to form hexamine copper diperchlorate + another unknown substance. The residual acid is evaporated in a pan at 80 DEG C. and the mixture becomes non-hygroscopic in this step. Therefore, a pungent gas is smelled during evaporation. I estimate that the whole process will not be possible without HClO4.
Of course, it is possible to mix everything with everything and look for another 10 different similar mixtures. However, in such a case, the work (for free) will take an infinite amount of time. The above substance works. And it has unexpectedly good properties as described.
The development of similar, similarly powerful energy substances costs millions in commercial laboratories. And after, all the information about them will end up in the military government vault.

specialactivitieSK - 9-1-2022 at 03:54

How about other metals like lithium or Selenium?

Can be used NH4ClO4 and Not HClO4 in some reaction ?

[Edited on 9-1-2022 by specialactivitieSK]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 9-1-2022 at 06:04

You can try everything possible. You may get even better results. I'm not a chemist. I am only an inventor with demonstrably clear results in the field of energetic materials.

MineMan - 9-1-2022 at 10:46

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
The Cu (ClO4) 2 used was found to still contain the HClO4 from which it was made. The residual acid, together with Cu (ClO4) 2 together with hexamine, to form hexamine copper diperchlorate + another unknown substance. The residual acid is evaporated in a pan at 80 DEG C. and the mixture becomes non-hygroscopic in this step. Therefore, a pungent gas is smelled during evaporation. I estimate that the whole process will not be possible without HClO4.
Of course, it is possible to mix everything with everything and look for another 10 different similar mixtures. However, in such a case, the work (for free) will take an infinite amount of time. The above substance works. And it has unexpectedly good properties as described.
The development of similar, similarly powerful energy substances costs millions in commercial laboratories. And after, all the information about them will end up in the military government vault.


I hate doing this because it seems like I am minimizing your work! I am trying to take out the hazardous and excotic chemicals such as perchloric acid. What you discovered is amazing! I do wonder. What if you mixed ammonium perchlorate, copper ammonia, hexamine and water together.

Elemental Phosphorus - 9-1-2022 at 11:50

Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
The Cu (ClO4) 2 used was found to still contain the HClO4 from which it was made. The residual acid, together with Cu (ClO4) 2 together with hexamine, to form hexamine copper diperchlorate + another unknown substance. The residual acid is evaporated in a pan at 80 DEG C. and the mixture becomes non-hygroscopic in this step. Therefore, a pungent gas is smelled during evaporation. I estimate that the whole process will not be possible without HClO4.
Of course, it is possible to mix everything with everything and look for another 10 different similar mixtures. However, in such a case, the work (for free) will take an infinite amount of time. The above substance works. And it has unexpectedly good properties as described.
The development of similar, similarly powerful energy substances costs millions in commercial laboratories. And after, all the information about them will end up in the military government vault.


I hate doing this because it seems like I am minimizing your work! I am trying to take out the hazardous and excotic chemicals such as perchloric acid. What you discovered is amazing! I do wonder. What if you mixed ammonium perchlorate, copper ammonia, hexamine and water together.


First off, let me say that this seems like a very cool invention. I have recently made some TACP by LL's method and I will try this out when I can.

Also, MineMan, you can make perchloric acid pretty easily if you have ammonium perchlorate. It is a method I have done myself, all it requires is some hydrochloric acid, nitric acid, ammonium perchlorate and a flask. No distillation necessary, though you could always distill from a perchlorate salt and sulfuric acid. Also, if you have sodium perchlorate, it is considerably more soluble than sodium chloride, so it is possible to make a saturated sodium perchlorate solution and then add HCl. NaCl will precipitate out and then you can filter off your perchloric acid, and perhaps put it in the freezer to remove remaining NaCl.

Anyway, the procedure for the method using ammonium perchlorate without distillation is here:

Quote:
https://prepchem.com/synthesis-of-perchloric-acid/
50 grams of ammonium perchlorate are added to 60 ml of distilled water in a 500 ml beaker. 40 ml by volume of 68% nitric acid are added to the ammonium perchlorate solution and the solution is heated to a rolling boil (88-92°C). While heating, prepare a solution 15 ml of 30% hydrochloric acid in 25 ml distilled water. Once the ammonium perchlorate nitric acid solution is above 80° C, begin adding dropwise, the hydrochloric acid solution over a period of 25-30 minutes. The rate of addition should be sufficient to replace the lost water from boiling to ensure the volume remains constant. Once all the hydrochloric acid is added, allow the solution to boil for 30 minutes before increasing the heat to 135-140° C to drive off the remaining water, nitric and hydrochloric acids. The resultant solution should be pure perchloric acid. If there is any ammonium perchlorate remaining, it will crystalize out upon cooling.
-------------------------------------------------------


I have used this method and it does work, it's pretty easy and can give perchloric acid that is certainly concentrated enough for making salts.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 9-1-2022 at 15:15

Elemental Phosphorus: Thanks .... When I saw the first holes from this substance,
I couldn't believe my eyes. Some were as large as those of ETN. Some even bigger. With sharp bottom edges. More accurate measurements have shown that it is not as strong as ETN. The current estimate is approximately 90-95% ETN brisance. During further tests, it was found that the presence of ethanol was not a condition. Just 2g of distilled water is needed to dissolve. Precipitation of fine powder occurs immediately after mixing CuP and hexamine.
Water-insoluble turquoise particles. However, the process also requires heating in a thin layer on stainless steel. Until completely dry. Or another inert surface. It often happened that the porridge baked in the pan. So I used a steel scraper. At least 30 times. The surface was heated to 80 C at that moment. And yet nothing happened. Shield, of course, thick gloves, earplugs. And always removed from the area a small amount. And closed aside. And then the scratching continued. Still no incident.
And also thanks for the procedure for HClO4. It looks easy and is mainly described in detail.

The observation of filter paper burning led to the preparation of a new substance. Which burned so energetically that he blew out any lighter flame. It was as if a stream of gas with a pressure of several atmospheres was coming out of the paper. Such behavior has not been observed with any other perchlorate. Sharp blue flame in one direction. Like an autogenous flame. So if the paper burns like this, what will hexamine do?

MineMan...Perchloric acid not smell, not fuming. Is it a like water. From my experience is it most friendly acid between others....:cool:



[Edited on 9-1-2022 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

MineMan - 9-1-2022 at 18:08

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
Elemental Phosphorus: Thanks .... When I saw the first holes from this substance,
I couldn't believe my eyes. Some were as large as those of ETN. Some even bigger. With sharp bottom edges. More accurate measurements have shown that it is not as strong as ETN. The current estimate is approximately 90-95% ETN brisance. During further tests, it was found that the presence of ethanol was not a condition. Just 2g of distilled water is needed to dissolve. Precipitation of fine powder occurs immediately after mixing CuP and hexamine.
Water-insoluble turquoise particles. However, the process also requires heating in a thin layer on stainless steel. Until completely dry. Or another inert surface. It often happened that the porridge baked in the pan. So I used a steel scraper. At least 30 times. The surface was heated to 80 C at that moment. And yet nothing happened. Shield, of course, thick gloves, earplugs. And always removed from the area a small amount. And closed aside. And then the scratching continued. Still no incident.
And also thanks for the procedure for HClO4. It looks easy and is mainly described in detail.

The observation of filter paper burning led to the preparation of a new substance. Which burned so energetically that he blew out any lighter flame. It was as if a stream of gas with a pressure of several atmospheres was coming out of the paper. Such behavior has not been observed with any other perchlorate. Sharp blue flame in one direction. Like an autogenous flame. So if the paper burns like this, what will hexamine do?

MineMan...Perchloric acid not smell, not fuming. Is it a like water. From my experience is it most friendly acid between others....:cool:

What percentage is needed to add a perchlorate ion to hexamine, melamine, creatine and other materials. Perchlorate seem perfect for DDT. For aminoguanidine you can do meta thesis, tho I don’t know why. Does anyone have a discord name who could explain these things further?

[Edited on 9-1-2022 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

MineMan - 9-1-2022 at 19:19

I see MANY uses for this mixture. One being an excellent catylist for rocket fuel!! Just a few percent

Laboratory of Liptakov - 10-1-2022 at 00:43

In addition, copper perchlorate is fun. I mentioned burning filter paper. Of course, the test paper filter is very hygroscopic. It contains XX percent Cu (ClO4) 2. 6H2O. Which in itself hygroscopic pretty enough. But it stays dry for 1 minute. When you place such paper on an anvil and strike it with a hammer, it behaves the same as paper with a drop of nitroglycerin. Attention! Small pieces of paper act like micrometeorites. They get stuck under the skin. If you don't have gloves. ETN heated on foil has the same effect, thus flying micrometeorites. According to ongoing research, Cu (ClO4) 2 appears to form high-performance energy mixtures with almost any fuel. Solid or liquid. CuP is very high soluble in ethanol, good soluble in acetone, insoluble in nitromethane....:cool:

LL8 impact test

Laboratory of Liptakov - 10-1-2022 at 01:33

I have one more funny story from the shoot. Impact sensitivity has only been tested once. I assumed that the gases would escape down both sides around the steel brick. The same amount as in the picture was used. The guide tube will have to be made of something stronger ....:D

impact test.JPG - 506kB

LL8 with the addition of 4% Aluminum bright gives holes with an identical diameter as ETN. And plus, LL8 has more precise and sharper edges on the output side than ETN. Thats mark of high detonatiom pressure for LL8.



LL84Al.jpg - 140kB

[Edited on 10-1-2022 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

Brightthermite - 10-1-2022 at 15:27

So you suspect that some percent of acid left in the copper perchlorate is necessary. I wonder how much exactly and I wonder if this LL8 can be made with reagent grade copper perchlorate, then we would know if the acid in necessary.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 10-1-2022 at 23:26

Compared to distilled water, the pH paper shows a slight acidity. But it is not the acid content that would cause a significant change in the properties of the final product. This is my current assumption. Furthermore, I do not know how to produce absolutely neutral Cu (ClO4) 2.

pHLL8.JPG - 143kB

ManyInterests - 11-1-2022 at 21:43

More brisant than CHP and NHN? Wow! I should try it sometime. I'm going to save this for a later experiment.

I know you mentioned how friction and impact insensitive CHP is, but how impact and friction sensitive is LL8? Similar? More or less? As you know my quest to make NHN was largely because of not only how powerful it is, but also how stable and safe it to handle, load, and press.

Edit: Is the Cu(ClO4)2 (hexahydrate) the same as Tetraamine Cooper Perchlorate? Or is it something different?

Edit2: Will you make a video showing how you synthesize it? Your videos are remarkably fun to watch.

[Edited on 12-1-2022 by ManyInterests]

[Edited on 12-1-2022 by ManyInterests]

LL8

Laboratory of Liptakov - 12-1-2022 at 04:40

According tests above is LL8 really brizantely than CHP. NHN was not tested at same conditions. The assumption is that NHN will have a lower brisance than LL8.
LL8 is very insensitive to friction. Withstands scraping from a hot pan (50 - 80 C) with a steel plate. 30 batches scratched without incident.
On impact is sensitive similarly a like heads pieces from safety matches.

Cu(ClO4)2 is Copper perchlorate. Tetraamine copper perchlorate is (TACP) : [Cu(NH3)4](ClO4)2. From TACP during decopmose is impossible prepare Cu(ClO4)2
From TACP + HCLO4 is impossible prepare Cu(ClO4)2.
Is necessary classic method HClO4 + CuCO3 = Cu(ClO4)2 + H2O + CO2.

Videos: My information is too accurate. In the case of LL8, almost strategic. If I make a video with a detailed procedure, (and properties) I will have problems with the authorities.



CuCO3.jpg - 116kB

CuClO4.jpg - 96kB

ManyInterests - 12-1-2022 at 07:55

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
According tests above is LL8 really brizantely than CHP. NHN was not tested at same conditions. The assumption is that NHN will have a lower brisance than LL8.
LL8 is very insensitive to friction. Withstands scraping from a hot pan (50 - 80 C) with a steel plate. 30 batches scratched without incident.
On impact is sensitive similarly a like heads pieces from safety matches.

Cu(ClO4)2 is Copper perchlorate. Tetraamine copper perchlorate is (TACP) : [Cu(NH3)4](ClO4)2. From TACP during decopmose is impossible prepare Cu(ClO4)2
From TACP + HCLO4 is impossible prepare Cu(ClO4)2.
Is necessary classic method HClO4 + CuCO3 = Cu(ClO4)2 + H2O + CO2.

Videos: My information is too accurate. In the case of LL8, almost strategic. If I make a video with a detailed procedure, (and properties) I will have problems with the authorities.


I'm having a hard time understanding your writing.

From TACP + HCLO4 is it impossible to prepare Cu(CIO4)2 or do you mean it is possible?

When I was asking for a video. I wasn't asking for an LL8 video, I think I can do it without watching a video of someone else doing it, but I was just curious about the regular copper perchlorate. I've seen (and downloaded) your video on CHP, it was as clear as it could be. I can figure it would look similar. However if all you need to make copper perchlorate is perchloric acid and ammonium perchlorate I think I can manage. I have no experience with making ammonium perchlorate, so this will be my biggest challenge in the future. The only chlorate I have experience with is potassium chlorate. I have an MMO anode and a titanium cathode. Based on your videos. I will need to invest in a cup type crucible so I can perpare sodium perchlorate from sodium chlorate (which I never attempted previously).

Also when you mentioned impact sensitivity, you said it was similar like a matchhead? Do you mean safety matches? Those cannot be set off by impact. Or are you referring to strike anywhere matches with a white phosphorous head?

But I have seen your videos on CHP. If it is tougher than CHP in terms of friction and impact sensitivity then I assume it is very stable and very safe to handle, load, press, and store. Even more safe than NHN, which is saying a lot.

How flame sensitive is it?

[Edited on 12-1-2022 by ManyInterests]

LL8

Laboratory of Liptakov - 12-1-2022 at 09:30

//From TACP + HCLO4 is it impossible to prepare Cu(CIO4)2 or do you mean it is possible?// Is it Impossible.

For prepare HClO4 you need NH4ClO4, HNO3, HCl. Is it method from Horace C. Adams 1925. Described here above.
You can try dry matchhead at 80 C during 30 minute. On hotpan. And after you can use hammer agains the vise. Or similary. And you see the sensitivity on impact. Without any phosphorus.

NHN is sure more stable than CHP. NHN is good material. But is it work with hydrazine. From this reason I leaved the preparation of NHN.
On flame is CHP and LL8 same sensitive a like NHN.

For exact measurement you need own falling hammer. Is it basic equipment of researcher....:cool:

ManyInterests - 12-1-2022 at 10:52

OK that makes sense. I'll definitely try that experiment with matches to see how sensitive it is. As long as it is safe to load and press gently with little danger of an accidental detonation, I think it will be good to work with and I definitely try it.

If it is as powerful as you say then I would think that it is a near perfect primary, and probably may not even need a booster and would work on its own.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 12-1-2022 at 13:23

Yes, you understand that correctly. No booster is needed. LL8 is not just a primary compound. It is primary - secondary filling consisting of only one substance. In a cavity, a single substance (eg LL8 or CHP) differs only in density.
1) With a low density (approx. 1.0 - 1.4 g / cm3) it plays the role of a primary substance. A resistance bridge is placed in this density. This is where the transition from combustion to detonation (DDT) occurs at a lower rate. For example zero up to 3000m / s.
However, this detonation rate is sufficient to initiate the detonation of the output segment. In which DDT would be (due to its high density) difficult or impossible or unreliable.
2) The output segment is of the same composition, but with a higher density (1.7 - 1.9) and therefore has a higher detonation rate = pressure. The outlet pressure is so strong that it can initiate EM based on AN. This is true for both CHP and LL8 substances.
NHN has a detonation pressure 20,8 GPa
CHP has a detonation pressure 22 - 25 GPa.
LL8 has a detonation pressure 27 - 29 GPa.
ETN has a detonation pressure 30 GPa

Another advantage: If there is only one substance, it cannot eat each other.:D

[Edited on 13-1-2022 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

MineMan - 13-1-2022 at 05:42

Bravo LL. Bravo! This is huge! Your focus on perchlorate has paid off. I urge you to try the aminoguanidine perchlorates! They are a tad less sensitive then CHP, but ddt at 20mg any density. In fact. One detonator was placed next to another. It bent the tube but it not set it off. Again. Not as safe as CHP, but impossible to set off steel on steel friction.

Bravo LL Bravo

What makes copper perchlorate so powerful, say compared to lithium perchlorate?

Laboratory of Liptakov - 13-1-2022 at 08:08

Thanks for offer of aminoguanidine. But I am lazy prepare AG, especially, when hexamine (+CuP) give very good pressure. Almost same as ETN.
Any way, interesting reccomendation is it for future.
Yes, Lithium Perchlorate will tested soon.

In my opinion, Cu (ClO4) 2 is an unexplored substance. Respectively as oxidizer with various fuels. Copper holds the molecule together only very weakly, compared to other metals. Copper provide weak hold in a lot elses molecules. For example Copper acetylide. Just a guess, nothing more.
Thanks for the recognition, MineMan ...:cool:



[Edited on 13-1-2022 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

B(a)P - 13-1-2022 at 13:18

Amazing work as always LL!
I assume your witness plate is mild steel? What is the thickness of the metal?
As others have suggested it would be interesting to try other metals, for example a nickel version of LL8.
I also agree with MineMan that copper or nickel aminoguanidine perchlorate would be interesting.
As you say though, perchlorate is generally more accessible to the amateur than aminoguanidine.
Thanks so much for sharing the results of your work!

S.C. Wack - 13-1-2022 at 15:12

How would a finely divided mixture of copper hydroxide and ~hexamine perchlorate or hexamine and AP perform?

Not entirely irrelevant:
https://doi.org//10.1615/IntJEnergeticMaterialsChemProp.2011...
https://doi.org/10.1021/jp077278z

Laboratory of Liptakov - 13-1-2022 at 16:52

S.C. Wack:
Links are relevants. Only metals (Zn, Ni, Mn) are different. Is it almost CHP. Thus perchlorate metal complex + hexamine + Ammonium perchlorate. Thus TACP 88% // [Cu(NH3)4](ClO4)2 // + hexamine 6% + AP 6%. It is popular CHP. Thaks for links. Cu(OH)2 + AP + Hexamine under ammonia water sure create CHP. Is necessary only set exact ratios, temperature, concentrations and time for boiling, I estimate. For all compounds. Easily is use dry TACP, dry hexamine , dry AP. And mixed under a few drops of NH4OH aq. Heated on 80C and dry. This is classic prepare CHP. Same method with Ni in molecule, not works, no holes. Tested repeatedly. Zn comlex was not tested.

B(a)P: Thanks for the acknowledgment, I appreciate it ...:cool:



[Edited on 14-1-2022 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

S.C. Wack - 13-1-2022 at 20:34

What the first article says is that when they tried to make CHP by the method that worked for the metals of the second article, they obtained light blue crystals of hexamine perchlorate instead. (to which a mp of 158C was given long ago FWIW) They say Cu perchlorate hydrolyzed under their conditions, and that perchloric acid and hexamine gave them AP and HCHO. Which would explain pungent gas, no smell of ammonia, and acid reaction, and why I wonder about the properties of AP+hexamine and hexamine perchlorate.

(PS mixing perchlorate and alcohol is also something to wonder about)

(PPS I note that DE183355 simply adds 10% CuCl to e.g. K perchlorate/naphthalene to produce a much more sensitive explosive which detonates with ordinary fuse)

[Edited on 15-1-2022 by S.C. Wack]

yobbo II - 14-1-2022 at 13:12


Cannot Copper Perchlorate be prepared using (say) Calcium Perchlorate and Copper Sulphate.
The Calcium Sulphate will PPT leaving Cu Perk.
Ca Perk. can by had my electrolysis.
Barium Perchlorate, Lead Perchlorate and others could be used.

Yob

MineMan - 14-1-2022 at 14:01

Quote: Originally posted by yobbo II  

Cannot Copper Perchlorate be prepared using (say) Calcium Perchlorate and Copper Sulphate.
The Calcium Sulphate will PPT leaving Cu Perk.
Ca Perk. can by had my electrolysis.
Barium Perchlorate, Lead Perchlorate and others could be used.

Yob


How does this work? How can some perchlorate be made with displacement in water solution but others need perchloric acid?

B(a)P - 14-1-2022 at 16:07

Same as any displacement reaction. If one of the products is insoluble or close to, them it precipitates out leaving the desired product in solution. Barium perchlorate and copper sulfate would also work.

Cu8 and Li8

Laboratory of Liptakov - 18-1-2022 at 11:18

Due to the discovery of another substance based on perchlorate and hexamine, I enclose a table. I renamed LL8 on Cu8 . The new primary-secondary substance is referred to as Li8 as a communication abbreviation. The preparation of Li8 is the same as for Cu8. Lithium perchlorate with hexamine has been shown to give excellent results. And it is even non hygroscopic in laboratory conditions, which is quite surprising. Same as Ba, K, Cu, NH4. Sodium perchlorate is extremely hygroscopic when mixed with hexamine. The disadvantage of Li8 is can be the availability or price of LiClO4 . 0 - 3 H2O in factory quality.
Interestingly, the preparation of Li8 is free of pungent gas during the evaporation of water and bound water. (Unlike Cu8 where is prepapration unpleasant) In addition, at Li8 the stainless steel surface can be heated up to 150 Celsius during the final evaporation. Without change of color or final properties. Absolutely dry Li8 burns with difficulty, purple but it always ignites in the cavity from the wire. Post-explosive gases are odorless at Li8. Unlike Cu8. Conclusion: Li8 is comfortable primary-secondary substance with 2x less impact sensitivity than CHP and Cu8. For Li8 was used factory quality LiClO4 .2H2O without acidity in crytstalls. In table are next tested perchlorate mixtures, which are unusable as primary - secondary compounds. Lithium perchlorate can be manufactured by reaction of sodium perchlorate (relatively easy prepare) with lithium chloride which can be cheap and available.

Thus, the preparation of LiClO4 may ultimately be easier than the preparation of Cu (ClO4) 2, or the preparation of NH4ClO4 and the subsequent production of TACP and the subsequent production of CHP. In addition, the final Li8 product is less sensitive to stimuli during preparation and handling and its detonation pressure is the highest of these perchlorate mixtures.

table deep.jpg - 995kB




[Edited on 18-1-2022 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

Li8

Laboratory of Liptakov - 18-1-2022 at 14:05

Burning Li8 on alu foil

Li8 burn.jpg - 76kB

MineMan - 18-1-2022 at 17:49

Fantastic work! Li perchlorate has always had a special place in my heart! It’s very special.

MineMan - 18-1-2022 at 17:58

LL. Lithium perchlorate is 2.4g/cc… why is the density so low, at only 1.4g/cc!? This is an anger to the energetic gods!

The oxygen balance of Li perchlorate should allow more hexamine. The perfect mix for AN is 10/90… with AN being +20, the lithium perchlorate being +64. I imagine the ratio is closer to 25-30 hex. I imagine the chlathrate should be at 1.9-2.0 density pressed. Can you please repeat with 27 hexamine and remeasure the density?

Edit: I did rough calculation, if hexamine is an OB of -205 then your other mixtures are oxygen diffiencet. Therefore, to keep in same tune hexamine should be no less then 25 percent. Therefore I expect the depth to be 4.5-4.7 if pressed to same density.

Edit 2: it seems I confused the percent oxygen with the OB, it is only 45. Therefore… maybe 20 hexamine is over fueled. But the copper perchlorate cannot have a better OB?
This is amazing work! I know we are power junkies… Urazine or aminoguanidine should provide even better results, with higher density.

[Edited on 19-1-2022 by MineMan]

[Edited on 19-1-2022 by MineMan]

Li8

Laboratory of Liptakov - 19-1-2022 at 00:19

LiClO4 without water has OB + 60.15 available values. Hexamine - 205.41. Utility counter show ratio 77 : 23 with OB - 0,929. But was used
LiClO4 x 2H2O. Therefore was added 3%. Thus ratio 80:20. Also line of powder in alu foil V shape long 7 cm show best speed at ratio 80:20. Was pressed a new cylinder. Height 1,240 cm in diameter 8,00 mm. Pressed in 4 steps in vise on maximal density while maintaining the diameter of the cavity 8 mm. Density of 1000 mg in this cavity
should by 1.605 g/ cc. It can't be more in amateur conditions. 4x twisting the rod from cavity is Russian roulette.
Of course, the ratios for Li8 and Cu8 can be calculated more accurately during further research. Urazine a aminoguanidine is research of Microtek.
I have only 2 hands.

Li81.JPG - 135kB
Li82.JPG - 130kB


[Edited on 19-1-2022 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

Microtek - 19-1-2022 at 01:28


Quote:

I have only 2 hands


I know exactly what you mean. The number of things that needs to be investigated can sometimes be overwhelming.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 19-1-2022 at 02:12

Exactly. An ordinary one table with results like here above will take up all free time for the whole week. For provide results free. If such a job were done by a professional laboratory, results in table would be cost thousands of dollars.

MineMan - 19-1-2022 at 03:04

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
Exactly. An ordinary one table with results like here above will take up all free time for the whole week. For provide results free. If such a job were done by a professional laboratory, results in table would be cost thousands of dollars.


Probably ten thousand. But don’t worry LL, when I hit the big bucks you can work in my lab and do this professional ;) all the chemicals you want, including ethanol and DMT!

Shouldn’t the density be higher still, for example 2.1g/cc? Anyway to drive the water from the Li perchlorate? In fact it’s not a dry mix, it’s a ligand , water should be removed? Tho I have no knowledge. Burning spending unconfined does not relate to Detonation performance we know.

Li8 Cu8

Laboratory of Liptakov - 19-1-2022 at 05:33

Burning rate Li8 on air is for firsts attempts important. Li8 is quite difficult to ignite. It goes out without support. If Li8 is to pass the test as a monomaterial, thus primary-secondary material, it must be possible to ignite it in the cavity reliable. Without other ingredients. Combination with CHP or Cu8 or ETN or Alu or BP powder may be the subject of further research. But at ratio 80:20 (at density 1,4 +) is presure enough high for starting any secondary EM. Which is basic purpose.
Higher density for Li8 require special pressing device, tools, equipment. For example, aminoguanidine is not simple for preparation. So I leave such substances to others. Bay the way, Anyone can work on improvements of Li8/Cu8. Not just me.
Li8 and Cu8 are basic research products. Similarly a like CHP.
Applications can be mixtures with similar ratios. However, they rely on successful substances from the basic research.

MineMan - 19-1-2022 at 08:38

I lost my post.

I want this to out perform ETN.

Why is the density so low? Is this ligand much less dense than a dry mix.

I ask, can it for eutetic when heated, just like AP and Hex? Euteitc or melt will be most density. There is a good chance, if it works with AP it could work with this, especially if water is present. I want the holy 2.0 of density.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 19-1-2022 at 09:30

Is it weird, the low density. 2,42 80% + 1,33 20% should by 2,20g / cm3...:cool:

MineMan - 20-1-2022 at 00:01

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
Is it weird, the low density. 2,42 80% + 1,33 20% should by 2,20g / cm3...:cool:


You have to use harmonic density calculations instead. Nonetheless, this is close enough. At 2.2 density, should easily outperform ETN if it’s close at 1.6.

C6(NO2)5CH2CH(CH3)N(NO2)2 - 20-1-2022 at 17:59

I wonder is this a clathrate, complex, double salt, mixture or if it actually formed a new compound? the part about irritating gases coming out makes me think there may be a new organochlorine compound or something.

It would be great if a bigger commercial or government lab could give it a try and try to characterize the structure of it.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 21-1-2022 at 02:06

The amateur assumption is that Cu8 is mixture of copper-hexamine - diperchlorate + copper perchlorate in one crystal + small amount copper hydroxide, about 1%.
And some similar is Li8. Important is, that is works very well both. Because result of attempt is 10x more important than theory.

Li8 and Cu8

Laboratory of Liptakov - 22-1-2022 at 13:36

For sure was tested mixture Li8 + Cu8 50:50. Brisance is bigger than CHP, but weaker than at others on picture. Pretty surprisingly is, that Li8 is difficult fired as free heap. During a 2 second goes out after ignition. But detonation pressure of Li8 is the highest of all examined mixtures. I don't know of any other primary mixture (or primary-secondary) that will go out on its own if you ignite it. For reliable DDT of course Li8 require solid metal cavity. From unknown reason is surface of crater from Li8 pretty smooth. Against all others. And after test was this crater as only one clear, without black residuum. Explosive fumes were also odorless only at Li8. But that has been mentioned before.
List in brizance order:
ETN ...........5,34 mm
Li8..............4,17 mm
Cu8............4,10 mm
Li8/Cu8......3,67 mm
CHP...........3,46 mm

compare 5.jpg - 944kB

S.C. Wack - 23-1-2022 at 10:20

BTW US3066139 (which has little data) bears a slight resemblance to this, with Al nitrate and K chlorate as the preferred additives.

[Edited on 23-1-2022 by S.C. Wack]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 23-1-2022 at 13:45

There are hundreds of different mixtures with hexamine. Hundreds of old patents on similar theme. But accurate test is crucial. And importantly, don't be afraid to mix it. And to press it. Only then will the results come....:cool:

Attachment: Kruszynski2015_Article_OnTheCoordinationBehaviourOfTh.pdf (971kB)
This file has been downloaded 124 times


B(a)P - 24-1-2022 at 01:16

I hope this is the correct place to post this. I am certainly not trying to hijack this amazing thread.
Inspired by LL I decided to experiment with nickel perchlorate and hexamine.
After some experimentation I am not sure this mixture will be of use. I used the same method as described by LL in the original post on this thread to combine the reagents. The issue is that the mixture is so hygroscopic it is impossible to get dry. On heating the mixture will become a sticky toffee consistency. I have tried heating very small amounts to complete dryness, but it decomposes before it is dry. I am currently trying to dry a sample of the mixture in a desiccant box. Unfortunately I do not have the capability to dry under vacuum, but I might try and rig something up if the desiccant box does not work. Any suggestions to help dry this mixture and allow some testing would be most welcome.

Li8 - Lithex

Laboratory of Liptakov - 24-1-2022 at 01:48

There is no mention of energy properties in the attached Kruszynski link. This link was found back only after verifying the energy properties of Li8. It can be used to form said ligand.
Similar method of preparation: 80% LiClO4 dihydrate x 2 H2O + 20% hexamine. Dissolve 4 g of LiP + 1 g of hexamine in 5.2 g of dH2O. Heat to boiling point and cool in an ice bath. The solution almost "solidifies". The resulting slurry is filtered off. Fine needle crystals remain on the filter. Color and consistency like snow. Vacuum suction is a condition. The crystals thus formed are transferred to a stainless steel pan. The temperature is adjusted to 80 DEG C. At this temperature, the crystals soon dissolve, a liquid is formed. The liquid is a dihydrate-ligand. When the temperature is raised to 100 C, the dihydrate dries. And it becomes a monohydrate - a ligand. When the temperature is raised to 120 ° C, the monohydrate dissolves again. When the temperature is raised to 150 C, the monohydrate dries. The material requires constant friction with a steel plate in all steps. The preparation of Li8 is not for the faint of heart. It requires strong nerves. After drying at 150 DEG C., the temperature is reduced to 80 DEG C. And at this 80 C is filled material into the cavity. Li8 anhydride was shown to be hygroscopic. Arised monohydrate overnight, at room conditions. Monohydrate looks a like dry powder. But at increase temperature on 120 C created solution. LiClO4 can be trihydrate, dihydrate, monohydrate, anhydride. Same behavior are for Li8. Next method for preparation Li8 is create anhydride of LiClO4. And after mixing 77 % + 23% of hexamine. Add dH20 to full dissolve at 100 C. And increase temperature on 150 C to total dry powder. I recommend working with an amount of about 1 gram.
Gloves, shield, ear plugs. First described method with filtering provide better results for finally brisance.....:cool:

Lithex

Laboratory of Liptakov - 24-1-2022 at 01:56

B(a)P...interesting. Important attempt. Now we know, that Nickel not works. Every different metal - perchlorate has different behavior in mixture with hexamine. It seeems, that stabile ligand can create
only Cu, Li, Na perchlorates + hexamine. In Kruzsynski (link) was tested a lot exotic metals. But only Lithium and Sodium created ligand.
Copper was nort examined there.
Preparation must be easy. Without desiccators and the like. The Li8 turned out to withstand really rough handling. And a long heating, for example, 2 hours at 120 Celsius. Then it has even the best features. And is burning easy as heap. CHP would not be able to withstand such treatment. It would either explode or disintegrate.


I consider Lithex (Li8) to be a luxurious primary-secondary substance. And despite the fact that he is hygroscopic. Accurate measurements showed that 3.01 g of LiClO4 x 2 H2O contained 2.47 g of LiClO4 anhydride. 3g therefore contain 22% water.
OB for LiP is + 60.15. The OB for hexamine is -205.41. From this follows the ratio
77 parts dry LiP + 23 parts dry hexamine. Where the resulting OB = -0.929.
Thus, the exact ratio of LiP dihydrate should be 2.97g + 0.69g dry hexamine. Beware, hexamine is also moist often. It must be dried before weighing. Because LiP is up to trihydrate, we never know exactly how many grams to use for the exact ratio. For this reason, it is much easier and safer to use LiP anhydride and dried hexamine. In ratio 77:23. As already indicated, at least 2 crystalline barriers must be overcome when drying LiP. At 80 and 120 C. The melting point of completely dry LiP is 236 C. Boiling point - decomposition 400 C. For this reason, there is no need to worry about decomposition during drying to the anhydride. Caution, do not use Teflon for drying. LiP immediately reacts with Teflon at 80 ° C and begins to blacken. Even the stainless steel surface is not perfect. When LiP is melted, there is a slight browning of pure factory LiP. The same effect is observed when the Li8 mixture is dried. After drying, the mixture is slightly gray. However, its energy properties will not affect it for the worse. Humidity affects Li8 performance quite fundamentally. Therefore, all tools must be kept warm around 40 C during handling and filling. And work quickly.
If all this is adhered to, Li8 provides surprising results.
The preparation is odorless and even the fumes after the test are odorless. Repeatedly measurement confirmed low sensitivity to impact, ie a 750g hammer from a height of 30 cm, initiation in 50% of cases. Like ETN. CHP is initiated from 15 cm under the same conditions. Friction sensitivity of Li8 has not been tested. But since Li8 is rubbed with a flexible steel at 150 C on a fine powder, the sensitivity to friction will not be high.

[Edited on 24-1-2022 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

Nitrosio - 24-1-2022 at 12:19

http://pyrobin.com/files/LPH.pdf

MineMan - 24-1-2022 at 22:54

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
For sure was tested mixture Li8 + Cu8 50:50. Brisance is bigger than CHP, but weaker than at others on picture. Pretty surprisingly is, that Li8 is difficult fired as free heap. During a 2 second goes out after ignition. But detonation pressure of Li8 is the highest of all examined mixtures. I don't know of any other primary mixture (or primary-secondary) that will go out on its own if you ignite it. For reliable DDT of course Li8 require solid metal cavity. From unknown reason is surface of crater from Li8 pretty smooth. Against all others. And after test was this crater as only one clear, without black residuum. Explosive fumes were also odorless only at Li8. But that has been mentioned before.
List in brizance order:
ETN ...........5,34 mm
Li8..............4,17 mm
Cu8............4,10 mm
Li8/Cu8......3,67 mm
CHP...........3,46 mm



Yes there are primary/secondary mixtures that can DDT and self extinguish… they are the holy grail because of safety, a stray spark unconfined does nothing. Congress LL, this is a big invention :))). I am genuinely jealous, I wish it were me instead, that’s how big this is :)

Lithex

Laboratory of Liptakov - 25-1-2022 at 00:42

No need to be jealous. Drying of the Li8 mixture at 150 C could end in an explosion. Fortunately, this did not happen. Drying and scraping and crushing at 150 C were repeated at least 30 times. No accident. Fortunately. But not everyone wants to be an astronaut. Because it's a very risky way up there. A professional chemist would never heat a perchlorate ligand with hexamine to 150 C. On a metal surface. Plus no thermometer. The temperature is only estimated. But it must be such that the crystalline barrier is overcome and the ligand gives up all the water. This is certainly possible at lower temperatures in a vacuum. Maybe only at 50 C. This ligand has been known for many years. But no one dared to deprive him of water. Either way, vacuum or classic. This happened for the first time 1.1. 2022. At the temperature at which you fry the eggs. Until it turns black.
A lower temperature is used for Cu8, estimated at 80 - 100 Celsius. But pungent gas is produced, which is uncomfortable. There is basically nothing to feel about Li8. You just have to pray. And occasionally set the pan and cool a little. Especially when crushing larger agglomerates 2x2 mm. For example, at 100 Celsius. And then increase again to 150 C for drying. And repeat the whole procedure until a fine powder is formed. Which can easily get rid of the last remnants of water. The grain must be almost like powder, ie less than 0.1 mm. A well-dried pile of 100 mg burns whole, without residue. Slowly, but it burns. In aluminum foil V-shaped closure, it burns quite quickly, about 10 - 15 cm / s. Another thing: Few people have LiClO4 to do such an experiment at all. It is pretty expensive chemical. 100g over 100 Dollars. This dramatically reduces the likelihood that someone will try or have tried it before. Like almost all inventions, it is usually a more coincindences together. No need to envy, be jealous.
It was a coincidence. And nothing bad happened....:cool:

MineMan - 25-1-2022 at 02:43

What about lithium nitrate. The king, same density far more oxygen. I owe this knowledge to a young Enthusiastic friend.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 25-1-2022 at 04:19

Lithium nitrate maybe will work. You can try it. Or someone. Also sodium perchlorate provide interesting properties. In table is writte zero. But not is exact truth. NaP + hexamine ligand also can detonate as DDT substance in solid cavity. But his power is weak. Also sometimes worked, sometimes not worked. Shortly is unreliable. Yet. NaP is easily available
and maybe will work with ETN in one solid cavity. In some ratio. Also with adding alu powder. Or small % diethyleneglycol.
Because NaP + DEG is powerful EM. But not primary, is it insensitive secondary. In parts: 75 NaP + 25 DEG + 5 - 15 H2O. Maybe without water, but with hexamine + DEG (small amount about 1 -5 % I estimate) It will works. It was not tested....:cool:
NaP I see a like interest way for research. Is cheap, can create ligand with hexamine. Maybe from it some will.

--------------I specify the temperature for drying Li8 to anhydrite. The minimum is 150 C, the maximum 165 C.---------------

Another interesting fact is that there is no need to add water when mixing LiP + Hexamin. If LiP dihydrate is used, simply strew both components onto the pan. Internal water from LiP will take care of dissolution. The dihydrate therefore serves as a fairly accurate thermometer for measuring surface temperature. And it shows the minimum temperature required for mixing.The performance of such a mixture after drying is the same (same holes) and the preparation is faster. As soon as the dihydrate crystals start to melt, the heating is stopped. And at this temperature, mixing and drying are continued.
During 10 - 15 minute is done. Arise very fine white powder. Li8 is more white than method with adding water. Used ratio 2,98 LiP x 2 H2O + 0,69 hex x 0 H2O.


[Edited on 25-1-2022 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

S.C. Wack - 25-1-2022 at 14:51

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
There are hundreds of different mixtures with hexamine. Hundreds of old patents on similar theme.


There are others in which one or both is a minor component, <10%. I'm unaware of other patents using (per)chlorate and hexamine as main oxidizer and fuel, other than airbag composition e.g. 15.7% hexamine, 47.7% AP, 36.2% Na nitrate, balance fumed silica.

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
Another thing: Few people have LiClO4 to do such an experiment at all. It is pretty expensive chemical. 100g over 100 Dollars. This dramatically reduces the likelihood that someone will try or have tried it before. Like almost all inventions, it is usually a more coincindences together.


"Lab Depot" charges $63.60 (not including $19 shipping) for 25 g LiCl...it's easily made even without the acid, from LiCl and the Na salt (even starting from HTH). It's mentioned in that airbag patent.

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
In Kruzsynski (link) was tested a lot exotic metals. But only Lithium and Sodium created ligand.


It also forms a tetrahexamine hexahydrate, which had to be brought up simply because one of the authors for this 1932 Bull. soc. ref. is named Krawczynski.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 25-1-2022 at 15:24

Lesson: Lab Depot still more dramatically reduces the likelihood that someone will try make LiClO4....:D
Maybe will better HClO4 from NH4ClO4/HNO3/HCl. In method Horace C. Adams. And then HClO4 + Li (or LiOH)


[Edited on 25-1-2022 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 27-1-2022 at 00:25

An acid-base reaction between LiOH + HClO4 was successfully performed. The stoichiometric ratio is 6.8 g HClO4 + 1.62 LiOH. Practice: 11g HClO4 68% + 20g dH2O as solution A. 2.92 LiOH monohydrate + 30g dH2O as solution B. Solution B is added dropwise to solution A. The reaction proceeds without splashing and almost without heating. After the addition of 25 g of solution B, the pH must be measured frequently. Solution equilibrated dropwise to pH 7 neutral. After evaporation of water, the yield was 8.39 g of LiClO4 x 0 H20. Finální teplota povrchu 165 C. Approximately 0,5% was mechanical losses. From this Li8 (Lithex) was synthesized.
Its energy properties are the same as when using factory LiClO4.

Herr Haber - 27-1-2022 at 05:42

Quote: Originally posted by S.C. Wack  


"Lab Depot" charges $63.60 (not including $19 shipping) for 25 g LiCl...it's easily made even without the acid, from LiCl and the Na salt (even starting from HTH). It's mentioned in that airbag patent.



Meanwhile in other shops...

5.48 Euros for 25 grams of the perchlorate from Chemcraft.
500 grams for 73 Eu.
They also have Li metal and HCLO4 for those who like to make everything from scratch.

10 grams for 5 Euros from Onyxmet.
Best for last: LiCl x H2O for 70 Euros a kilo (compared with the 63$ for 25 grams from Lab Direct!)

These businesses are a huuuge opportunity for the researcher with little needs and little means.

Lithex preparation

Laboratory of Liptakov - 27-1-2022 at 09:20

Good links, thanks Herr Haber....:cool:


LiCl https://onyxmet.com/index.php?route=product/product&path...

HClO4 https://chemcraft.su/product/25786

LiClO4 https://chemcraft.su/product/23226 19 USD / 100g very cheap

NaClO4 https://chemcraft.su/product/25565

hexamine https://chemcraft.su/product/25713

hcl stoich.jpg - 117kB


Maybe this should by works.
Li stoicho.jpg - 120kB

Solubility compounds in 100g acetone:
LiCl ................1,2g
NaClO4.........52g
LiClO4.........137g
NaCl............ 0,000042g
I estimate, that double recrystallization provide pretty pure LiClO4.
Better of course will buy directly LiClO4 by 19 USD





[Edited on 27-1-2022 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 27-1-2022 at 10:01

LiClO4 is proving to be a promising oxidant. For example, LiClO4 anhydride 70% + diethylene glycol (DEG) 30% provides an interesting energy substance. This substance has a melting point of 70 Celsius.
In the liquid state, it is sensitive to impact, similar to nitroglycerin. And it gives similarly loud blows. But once it solidifies, it is impossible to detonate the mixture. Even with a strong hammer blow, there is no detonation. The mixture can be heated to 165 Celsius for a long time without changing the properties. It can be allowed to solidify and reheat. It will most likely be hygroscopic which is difficult to detect. On V-shaped aluminum foil burns with an effective, regular red-violet flame. No jets and irregularities in burning. But speed of burning is relatively high.
This could be an interesting alternative for small rocket engines. In the liquid state, the viscosity is like a thin oil. This would allow casting at low temperature. Due to the lightness of Lithium, such a mixture could have a high specific impulse. The disadvantage will be the price of such a composition.
A mixture of LiClO4 + DEG as base + Alu powder + hexamine or another similar composition based on LiP + DEG is also possible. Not examined.

S.C. Wack - 27-1-2022 at 15:54

Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber  
Meanwhile in other shops...


That was the point. It was a commentary on chemicals offered for high prices, specifically LL's buy, not a reflection of the actual market here.

It's true that the chloride and esp. the carbonate costs 3-5x more than they did 20 years ago and will soon double again. I would not expect chlorate and perchlorate to be shipped inexpensively. The acid is unchallenging to make, as is LiP without the acid, Cl, or Pt, with or without thermal or chemical processes, from various perchlorate, chlorate, and hypochlorite sources, starting at any point, using solubility characteristics to advantage. (the ammonium-alkali-alkaline earth oxychlorides being all connected to each other in this way)

Laboratory of Liptakov - 27-1-2022 at 16:13

Every hobby costs something. For example, aircraft modeling, drones, RC planes and the like cost about 5x to 10x as much as unit-level research of up to tens of grams in the field of chemistry. So that one can have fun entires days. My life experience shows that chemistry is one of the cheapest hobbies ever...:cool:

C6(NO2)5CH2CH(CH3)N(NO2)2 - 27-1-2022 at 17:49

I still wonder what the irritating vapors are when making the copper perchlorate version. I also wonder about the molecular structure of the finished product. It might help us to understand long term stability or help us discover similar combinations involving nitrate or chlorate salts.

The diethylene glycol/lithium perchlorate melt is another example of a concept I have been very interested in. In fact, it might be the best demonstration of it ever.

A solution of a fuel and oxidizer completely dissolved in each other is much more likely to detonate than a mixture of two powders or even a liquid in a powder. The molecules in a solution are literally side by side and can react almost as fast as a molecular HE.

Acetone dissolving more than its own weight of lithium perchlorate seems like another good candidate. I haven't done math for how close that is to oxygen balance/how much energy it could produce, but a saturated acetone/perchlorate solution might be cap sensitive.

Another promising mixture like this is calcium nitrate and methyl alcohol. In this case you could only get maybe half the required oxidizer to dissolve so you would need to gel the mixture and then suspend very fine calcium nitrate particles into it. The double salt/hydrate 5[Ca(NO3)2].NH4NO3.H2O is sold over the counter here as a tomato fertilizer. Methanol is sold as an automotive fuel additive. It's about 7 euros for a 2 kg bag of the fertilizer and about 2 euros for 500ml of methanol.

I haven't actually tested this one because I haven't found a good way of gelling methanol, and I also don't have the other reagents or equipment to make or test an initiating charge at this point.

I'd love to find a chlorate that makes a somewhat stable primary or DDT mixture, and also one that is soluble in meaningful quantities in a liquid fuel.

Lithex

Laboratory of Liptakov - 28-1-2022 at 02:38

The molecular structure of Cu8 is still a mystery. Because it is prepared from slightly acidic Cu (ClO4) 2. After the reaction, the acidity decreases because an acid-base reaction occurs between hexamine and HClO4. Similar to preparing hexamine diperchlorate.
HLL8.JPG-thumb.jpg - 8kB
Acidity in Cu8 (LL8) is not some horrible. But is it product of alchemy yet.
Li8, ie Lithex, looks more promising. Pure neutral LiClO4 is used and the Lithex structure will almost certainly be more stable. Just because it can withstand an hour of heating at 150 C.
There are certainly dozens of mixtures with calcium, nitrate and who knows what else. Maybe some from them will works.
But this fiber deals with functional and tested mixtures, especially based on LiClO4.


caterpillar - 28-1-2022 at 02:43

Once I bought 12 kg of hexamine. At that time it was extremely cheap. But me, an idiot, placed it into the storage with a leaky roof. Next year I found only an empty box.

MineMan - 28-1-2022 at 03:43

Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber  
Quote: Originally posted by S.C. Wack  


"Lab Depot" charges $63.60 (not including $19 shipping) for 25 g LiCl...it's easily made even without the acid, from LiCl and the Na salt (even starting from HTH). It's mentioned in that airbag patent.



Meanwhile in other shops...

5.48 Euros for 25 grams of the perchlorate from Chemcraft.
500 grams for 73 Eu.
They also have Li metal and HCLO4 for those who like to make everything from scratch.

10 grams for 5 Euros from Onyxmet.
Best for last: LiCl x H2O for 70 Euros a kilo (compared with the 63$ for 25 grams from Lab Direct!)

These businesses are a huuuge opportunity for the researcher with little needs and little means.


Does chemcraft ship world wide.

MineMan - 28-1-2022 at 04:02

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
Good links, thanks Herr Haber....:cool:


LiCl https://onyxmet.com/index.php?route=product/product&path...

HClO4 https://chemcraft.su/product/25786

LiClO4 https://chemcraft.su/product/23226 19 USD / 100g very cheap

NaClO4 https://chemcraft.su/product/25565

hexamine https://chemcraft.su/product/25713




Maybe this should by works.


Solubility compounds in 100g acetone:
LiCl ................1,2g
NaClO4.........52g
LiClO4.........137g
NaCl............ 0,000042g
I estimate, that double recrystallization provide pretty pure LiClO4.
Better of course will buy directly LiClO4 by 19 USD





[Edited on 27-1-2022 by Laboratory of Liptakov]


This is comedy gold right here :)))

MineMan - 28-1-2022 at 04:10

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
LiClO4 is proving to be a promising oxidant. For example, LiClO4 anhydride 70% + diethylene glycol (DEG) 30% provides an interesting energy substance. This substance has a melting point of 70 Celsius.
In the liquid state, it is sensitive to impact, similar to nitroglycerin. And it gives similarly loud blows. But once it solidifies, it is impossible to detonate the mixture. Even with a strong hammer blow, there is no detonation. The mixture can be heated to 165 Celsius for a long time without changing the properties. It can be allowed to solidify and reheat. It will most likely be hygroscopic which is difficult to detect. On V-shaped aluminum foil burns with an effective, regular red-violet flame. No jets and irregularities in burning. But speed of burning is relatively high.
This could be an interesting alternative for small rocket engines. In the liquid state, the viscosity is like a thin oil. This would allow casting at low temperature. Due to the lightness of Lithium, such a mixture could have a high specific impulse. The disadvantage will be the price of such a composition.
A mixture of LiClO4 + DEG as base + Alu powder + hexamine or another similar composition based on LiP + DEG is also possible. Not examined.


Yes yes! Remember our test from a few years ago?! The casting idea is excellent!! Of course zirconium could be added… but if sensitivity is that of NG mineman scared

LiDEG

Laboratory of Liptakov - 28-1-2022 at 05:11

Of course zirconium could be added… but if sensitivity is that of NG mineman scared....:o...:D
Sensitivity is high only over 70 C as liquid.
But if it worked (with unknown ingredients under 70C), casting into the cavity would be possible without pressing. LiDEG will be further investigated.

Further trials have shown that Lithex is pretty resistant. Stress test: Lithex was dissolved in a concentrated solution of NH4OH 25% aq for 24 hours 1g / 10g. The solution was then poured onto a pan and dried at 165 ° C. The temperature was maintained at 120 ° C for 2 hours. Its properties did not change. The resulting hole in the 2 mm sheet is still 7.8 - 8 mm. Under standard conditions of the whole set, of course.

B(a)P - 28-1-2022 at 10:58

Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  


Does chemcraft ship world wide.


Pretty much, check their web site. There are a few places they won't ship to. I have purchased from them many times with delivery to Australia.

MineMan - 28-1-2022 at 15:30

Quote: Originally posted by B(a)P  
Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  


Does chemcraft ship world wide.


Pretty much, check their web site. There are a few places they won't ship to. I have purchased from them many times with delivery to Australia.


They seem way better than the polish oxnymet. Are there any better sites even? Nothing like this but a Chinese version?

Herr Haber - 28-1-2022 at 19:21

Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  

They seem way better than the polish oxnymet. Are there any better sites even? Nothing like this but a Chinese version?


Not that I know of.
Both are great sources for small amounts of very pure chemicals and a gold mine for element collectors.

I have found that both ship very professionally and never felt the need to repackage anything they had sent.
Cant say the same with China !

Laboratory of Liptakov - 4-2-2022 at 02:08

Preparation LITHEX here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BubkrGVEwF8&t=2s

MineMan - 4-2-2022 at 04:06

Yahhh :) any update on increasing the density to the holy 2.0g/cc?

Laboratory of Liptakov - 7-2-2022 at 12:30

Lithex is primarily a secondary substance, but its sensitivity to hot wire is relatively low. For this reason, it is recommended to use a more sensitive mixture in the area of the resistance bridge, ie Lithex with CuO 5%, or Al 5%, or Mg 5%. The CuO additive has the advantage that the surface does not oxidize as in the case of aluminum or magnesium during drying at a temperature of 165 -170 Celsius. I remind you again that Lithex requires a solid cavity, preferably steel, for a reliable deflagration detonation transition. With construction a like at the beginning of this thread.

LiClO4 was also tested with some fuels in stoichiometric ratio. Fuels in list do not have any energetic properties on the anvil.
Glycine, Glycerine, Ethyleneglycol, Erythritol, Potassium Ascorbate, Urea.

LITHEXAL

Laboratory of Liptakov - 13-2-2022 at 04:53

A new measurements shows (reccommended of MineMan) that adding 10% aluminium powder (bright type) into Lithex as two dry mixed fine powder compounds, provides very good results. Mixed at 150 celsia against moisturity, at dry. Time of mixing 2 minute. The brisantion is same but total energy of detonation is demonstrably bigger. Thus:

1) Aluminium (10%) can provide advantages of use less amount of Lithex, at retention same brisantion.
2) Aluminium (10%) increasing sensitivity for ignition to reliable level.
3) Because Lithex is neutral salt and mixing run in dry, the degradation of surface of Aluminium can be low in order weeks, months. ( only estimation yet)
4) Aluminium (10%) increases overall energy of detonation at same weight of compound.

By others examinations shows on variability of content of Aluminium, which can be from 3% to 12%. And always lends better properties than pure Lithex. A new mark LITHEXAL from Liptakov-MineMan research center....:cool:

[Edited on 13-2-2022 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

Lithex and Lithexal

Laboratory of Liptakov - 15-2-2022 at 05:12

To verify the critical diameter, a structure with an inner diameter of 4 mm was tested. Pure Lithex 150mg and 250mg were used as the output segment. For the starting DDT segment, 250 mg of low density Lithexal was used in both experiments.
The result is a coffee spoon with reduced resistance at stirring....:cool:


4 spoon.JPG - 911kB

MineMan - 15-2-2022 at 15:52

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
A new measurements shows (reccommended of MineMan) that adding 10% aluminium powder (bright type) into Lithex as two dry mixed fine powder compounds, provides very good results. Mixed at 150 celsia against moisturity, at dry. Time of mixing 2 minute. The brisantion is same but total energy of detonation is demonstrably bigger. Thus:

1) Aluminium (10%) can provide advantages of use less amount of Lithex, at retention same brisantion.
2) Aluminium (10%) increasing sensitivity for ignition to reliable level.
3) Because Lithex is neutral salt and mixing run in dry, the degradation of surface of Aluminium can be low in order weeks, months. ( only estimation yet)
4) Aluminium (10%) increases overall energy of detonation at same weight of compound.

By others examinations shows on variability of content of Aluminium, which can be from 3% to 12%. And always lends better properties than pure Lithex. A new mark LITHEXAL from Liptakov-MineMan research center....:cool:

[Edited on 13-2-2022 by Laboratory of Liptakov]


Thank you! That is very kind LL! What micron size do you report for Al?

MineMan - 15-2-2022 at 15:55

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
To verify the critical diameter, a structure with an inner diameter of 4 mm was tested. Pure Lithex 150mg and 250mg were used as the output segment. For the starting DDT segment, 250 mg of low density Lithexal was used in both experiments.
The result is a coffee spoon with reduced resistance at stirring....:cool:




Fantastic! At a total of 500mg it works very well! And it’s safe. In copper housing it should even resist large hammer impact. It is stable in high temperatures… nor does a stray spark ignite.

Lithex from Schweizer's reagent

Laboratory of Liptakov - 16-2-2022 at 02:23

I have no idea how is finelity of aluminum. It is aluminum for use as a silver colorant. So probably very fine, with oxidation protection. But we also need to think about those researchers who have no powdered aluminum or magnesium. For those, there is a variant with CuO. A new method for preparing flame-sensitive Lithex was also tested. Dissolve 1 g of Lithex in 10 g of Schweizer's reagent. The exact value of concentration of reagent ​​are not important. Briefly, concentrated Schweizers reagent 25% NH 4 OH in aq. The solution is poured onto a pan (at 20C) and dried at 170 ° C. At 80 C arise green heterogenous mixture. The dry mixture has a light brown color and is very sensitive on flame. Its brisance is about 10% lower than that of pure Lithex. His sensitivity on impact it higher. But as a starting - wire segment, it is excellent. The disadvantage of Lithex remains his hygroscopicity. Filling must take place at 40 Celsius. This applies to all handling tools and components. I guess the copper detonator wouldn't explode even if hitted with a hammer. But I won't try ....:cool:

markx - 16-2-2022 at 03:02

For pigment type bright Al powder the typical particle size is 40-70 microns.... PAP-4 type powder e.g.

SWL

Laboratory of Liptakov - 16-2-2022 at 04:01

To diversify of thread, I enclose the production and test of SWL, ie Lithex, prepared from white basic Lithex (LiClO4 77 / hexamine 23) + Schweizer reagent. The concentration was 2g Lithex per 10g reagent. Thus, twice the Lithex content than stated above (1:10) The results are almost the same. High sensitivity on flame.

SWL.jpg - 995kB

underground - 16-2-2022 at 13:27

EnergeticHeretic, a youtuber, almost always use Na piperazine perchlorate for his initiations. Give a try on this energetic, it looks promising. I am sure Ag piperazine perchlorate would be even more interesting. Dewormer consists of 45% piperazine citrate the rest is lactose.

[Edited on 16-2-2022 by underground]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 16-2-2022 at 14:24

Thanks,
It may be tried sometime in the future. At present, this thread deals mainly with primary-secondary compositions based on LiClO4....:cool:

MineMan - 17-2-2022 at 02:13

What about rhodium perchlorate hexamine clathrate??

Lithex - shaped charge

Laboratory of Liptakov - 17-2-2022 at 05:12

Rhodium is obviously interesting, but also very expensive. I doubt anyone will try. Including me.
Next: A test was performed to determine if Lithex was able to create a beam. The insert: Copper 0.4 mm, diameter 8 mm, angle cca 80 deg. , distance 12 mm from target. Unfortunately, the experiment was not very successful, two rays were generated. The penetration depth was estimated at 5 - 7 mm. So the beam did not penetrate even the first steel target 10 mm.

Shach.jpg - 1MB

Nitrosio - 17-2-2022 at 05:30

Attachment: LPG.pdf (10kB)
This file has been downloaded 92 times

Laboratory of Liptakov - 17-2-2022 at 07:56

Nitrosio from time to time appears as a mysterious spirit and utters a cryptic formulas mixtures that only the greatest experts understand .......:D.....:D

LII.jpg - 43kB

[Edited on 17-2-2022 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

underground - 17-2-2022 at 11:11

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
Nitrosio from time to time appears as a mysterious spirit and utters a cryptic formulas mixtures that only the greatest experts understand .......:D.....:D



[Edited on 17-2-2022 by Laboratory of Liptakov]


He just posted the optimum % of chemicals needed for optimum performance.
The 1st example is w/o AL powder, while the 2nd one is with AL powder

Laboratory of Liptakov - 17-2-2022 at 11:52

Oh yes, I know ethyleglycol...In short, it came to me as such a mysterious link....:D

underground - 17-2-2022 at 12:56

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
Nitrosio from time to time appears as a mysterious spirit and utters a cryptic formulas mixtures that only the greatest experts understand .......:D.....:D


Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
Oh yes, I know ethyleglycol...In short, it came to me as such a mysterious link....:D


LL LMAO :D

MineMan - 17-2-2022 at 19:35

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
Rhodium is obviously interesting, but also very expensive. I doubt anyone will try. Including me.
Next: A test was performed to determine if Lithex was able to create a beam. The insert: Copper 0.4 mm, diameter 8 mm, angle cca 80 deg. , distance 12 mm from target. Unfortunately, the experiment was not very successful, two rays were generated. The penetration depth was estimated at 5 - 7 mm. So the beam did not penetrate even the first steel target 10 mm.



Either the cone or the centering is a problem. Can you use copper bullet jackets from surplus ammo? And yes. Rodium is a joke

TACP from LiClO4

Laboratory of Liptakov - 20-2-2022 at 04:53

TACP can be prepared from LiClO4. In same method as with NH4ClO4. Unfortunately, it is a trihydrate. And crystalline water is impossible to remove. At 180 C, TACP decomposes to copper and LiClO4. However, this compound it is possible to decompose in boiling water to CuO + LiClO4. The LiClO4 thus obtained can be used again for the production of Lithex. (80:20) Which provides a standard brisance, like Lithex prepared from pure LiClO4 + hexamine 80:20.

tacp.JPG - 1.4MB

MineMan - 22-2-2022 at 18:30

To those of you who don’t quite understand LLs research or are just ignoring it, you have to understand this is very advance work. Detonators like these have been wanted by nuclear powers for insensitive, reliable detonators for warheads before exploding foil and laser detonators took over. Although, this material would respond great to laser initiation well also. You won’t see a lot of work like this in patents and paper because it’s deeply classified in national labs. But yours truly, LL has once again shown this can be a safer area of research without dealing with hazardous and exotic chemicals. After this thread I don’t know why even entertain posts about lead azide, or even NHN. I promise you LL will uncover something even more valuable from this research, near ETN pressure at only 70% density. Something that spilts the road into a new area of research will be found from this. I think of the ultra theoretical posts, and comments that were posted by members long gone (not PZ, he was invaluable) who showed off their inorganic and chemical knowledge of molecules to exist, but in one thread LL showed he brings more value than the endless theoretical discussions.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 23-2-2022 at 00:44

Thanks. MineMan. Thanks for the great support. Much of what you write is true. Many similar substances (with DDT capability) end up in the vaults of national laboratories. I'm sure of that. But Lithex is hygroscopic and requires a solid cavity. So it is not a particularly revolutionary invention. On the other hand, Lithex is interesting in that:

1) is highly thermally stable.
2) can be easily overdried before filling. (at 170 C in 10 minutes)
3) its preparation consists in simply mixing oxidizer and fuel.

No need for desiccator, Buchner device + vacuum pump, pH measurement, distillation, cooling, crystallization. Or other laboratory equipment or procedure. All you need is a pan and a steel scraper. There are not many pyrotechnic compounds in the world that can withstand frying in a pan. And scraping at 170 C. Often similar mixtures decompose. Or they explode when scratched. However: I think, that Lithex has pretty good international interest. The thread is 6 weeks old and has over 6,000 views. Not everyone wants to present a comment. Especially in this strategic field. It will be similar to CHP. Takes years than Lithex (or derivates as Lithexal) will recognized as usefulness compound for safetely initiation. The history of inventions has one thing in common. Any new thing in the first place ... I repeat in the 1st row ..has meets with distrust...:cool:..This is a natural law.

MineMan - 23-2-2022 at 01:25

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
Thanks. MineMan. Thanks for the great support. Much of what you write is true. Many similar substances (with DDT capability) end up in the vaults of national laboratories. I'm sure of that. But Lithex is hygroscopic and requires a solid cavity. So it is not a particularly revolutionary invention. On the other hand, Lithex is interesting in that:

1) is highly thermally stable.
2) can be easily overdried before filling. (at 170 C in 10 minutes)
3) its preparation consists in simply mixing oxidizer and fuel.

No need for desiccator, Buchner device + vacuum pump, pH measurement, distillation, cooling, crystallization. Or other laboratory equipment or procedure. All you need is a pan and a steel scraper. There are not many pyrotechnic compounds in the world that can withstand frying in a pan. And scraping at 170 C. Often similar mixtures decompose. Or they explode when scratched. However: I think, that Lithex has pretty good international interest. The thread is 6 weeks old and has over 6,000 views. Not everyone wants to present a comment. Especially in this strategic field. It will be similar to CHP. Takes years than Lithex (or derivates as Lithexal) will recognized as usefulness compound for safetely initiation. The history of inventions has one thing in common. Any new thing in the first place ... I repeat in the 1st row ..has meets with distrust...:cool:..This is a natural law.


Nearly all DDT mixtures need a solid tube. Although a .5mm Al or Carbon fiber tube is enough. Lithex could do this with tweaking. I know it. It’s similar to my DDT formula that self extinguishes in the open but can DDT in .5mm aluminum tube. Perhaps we should be more careful in what we say, I didn’t know so many viewed this forum. I just can’t imagine there are DDT compounds locked in national vaults that perform better than Lithex. I am interested in sark gap detonators, and think Lithex would work well for that. But now, we need to test a main charge with 90% density or produce a way to produce in quantity. I have an idea. Nitroguanidine works quite well at DDT! It is also extremely stable to shock. If 30 percent NQ were added to Lithex with aluminum, would be interesting.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 23-2-2022 at 08:31

It looks like there has been another breakthrough in the Lithex brisance. The unsuccessful reaction of TACP production from LiClO4 gave a change in color and consistency after 3 days. The dark blue turned to a light blue suspension. The light blue color is most likely copper hydroxide. Hydroxy-contaminated LiClO4 was dried. At 180 C. The hydroxide decomposed to CuO. (estimate) A sample of thus contaminated LiClO4 was mixed with hexamine in the usual ratio of 80:20. The maximum pressure was used when filling the cavity. A density of 1.818 g / cm3 was achieved. For an output segment weighing 400mg. The brisance at this density is the same as that of highly pressed ETN 400 mg.
Thus, the depth of the crater is 7.5 mm with a crater diameter of 19 mm. Because the tests are shot in lead, an error of at least 10% must be taken into account.
Anyway, MineMan had truth. If the Lithex can be compressed to high density, its brisance will be identical to ETN. Which has just been confirmed. The mixture thus prepared has, of course, excellent flame sensitivity. Therefore, it is not necessary to use a different chemical substance for ignition in the cavity. Lithex with CuO (xy%) works as a monopropelant with incredible brisance.

LTX 1,818.JPG - 753kB

underground - 23-2-2022 at 14:27

LL i have a question, i have seen your video on youtube about the cavity but, i was wondering, what are you using to close it ?

[Edited on 23-2-2022 by underground]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 23-2-2022 at 15:55

Video The cavity: time 2:35, alu foil ball + hammer.

But at testing Lithex,
the cavity is not closed at either end. This is also evident from the pictures in this thread. The side of the output segment is pressed with a force of about 100 Kg on density of 1.4 g / cm 3. Or recently on 200 Kg on density of 1.8 g / cm3. Side with wires is pressed force about 10 - 20 Kg. Because it is a test (laboratory) kit, protection against moisture is not necessary. The design without lid (on the outlet side) provides the strongest detonation pressure. And accurate result. For example at density 1,79g /cm 3 pure Lithex 400mg created craterof diameter 17,5 mm and deep 7,4 mm into lead metal.

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