Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Historical Forensics Question About a Bizarre Assassination Story

sarinox - 23-1-2025 at 10:25

Hello, folks,

First, I want to apologize if my question strays from the field of chemistry—it leans more toward a history-forensics discussion.

Description:
I recently came across a book that claims a historical figure was assassinated using poison, but the method described is quite unusual. According to the book, this historical figure—a man—was killed by his wife, who allegedly applied poison (the specific type isn’t mentioned) to her private parts (likely her genital area). This act ultimately led to the man’s death.

Admittedly, this account sounds bizarre and almost mythical. However, the book further states that, while on his deathbed, the man cursed his wife, declaring that God would punish her. It is said that she later fell ill, with her illness manifesting in her genital area.

This has led me to wonder if there could be any truth to the story. Could the woman have used a poison that not only killed the man when orally transmitted but also caused her to develop a strange illness herself?

The event is said to have occurred around 850 AD in the Middle East, a time and place where knowledge of poisons—both plant- and mineral-based—was relatively advanced. My personal speculation is that she might have used something like arsenic or mercury compounds, both of which were known in that era.

I’d love to hear your insights:

1-Could such a poison have existed 1,200 years ago?

2-Do you think this story has any basis in reality, or is it purely mythical?

3-Are there any known substances capable of killing an adult through oral transmission while also causing fatal illness if used internally?

Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

bnull - 23-1-2025 at 18:29

Before anything else: could you please provide the name of the book?

BromicAcid - 23-1-2025 at 20:28

There are poisons to which a person can achieve a tolerance due to prolonged exposure. Arsenic comes to mind:

https://academic.oup.com/toxsci/article/54/2/500/1654180

Some of these poisons are dermal, some oral. In essence, I could see a nugget of truth there in someone rendering themselves more or less immune by comparison and then poisoning someone with their body. But it seems a pretty circuitous route of exposure.

sarinox - 24-1-2025 at 00:38

Quote: Originally posted by bnull  
Before anything else: could you please provide the name of the book?


Hi bnull,

Of course, I can! However, I believe the book Al-Manaqib by Ibn Shahrashub has not been translated into English. In the book, there is another report of the poisoning method, which involves the common practice of poisoning food. However, if you search specifically for "Curse of Umm al-Fadl" within Al-Manaqib, not elsewhere, you will find the account of the bizarre method of assassination.



[Edited on 24-1-2025 by sarinox]

sarinox - 24-1-2025 at 00:48

Quote: Originally posted by BromicAcid  
There are poisons to which a person can achieve a tolerance due to prolonged exposure. Arsenic comes to mind:

https://academic.oup.com/toxsci/article/54/2/500/1654180

Some of these poisons are dermal, some oral. In essence, I could see a nugget of truth there in someone rendering themselves more or less immune by comparison and then poisoning someone with their body. But it seems a pretty circuitous route of exposure.


Hi BromicAcid,

So, essentially, are you suggesting that the assassin (the lady) trained her body over a long period of time to develop immunity to, let’s say, arsenic? She then attempted to murder her husband by exposing both herself and him to the poison during an intimate encounter. While she survived due to her acquired immunity, he succumbed to it?

Although this sounds logical, the way the book describes the event makes it seem as though she decided to do it all of a sudden. Additionally, the subsequent report that claims she developed an illness manifesting in her private parts suggests that she wasn’t so immune to the poison after all. What do you think?

DraconicAcid - 24-1-2025 at 07:17

I would assume that if she put an oral (not dermal) poison on her ladybits, he'd swallow enough to die and she'd absorb enough to get sick. Fact or fiction, I couldn't tell you.

There was a CSI episode about women drugging men using nipple-applied substances that turned out similarly.

[Edited on 24-1-2025 by DraconicAcid]

bnull - 24-1-2025 at 09:08

@sarinox: Thanks. There's really no English translation.

1. Yes. Biological poisons (complex organic molecules, that is) are pretty old. One could get used to them, immune system response etc. Mithridatism is the word.

2. Most probably a myth. The answer depends on many factors, especially the non-science side. The views that her husband, the Imam al-Jawad, held on oral sex, for example. If by performing it on his wife would make him impure, even though both were legally married to each other, then the story is a myth. I suppose that ibn Shahrashub was more interested in some sort of religious/theological lesson than in making the Imam seem a hypocrite, portraying him practicing what he opposed (if so). I'd have to consult more Islamic literature than I'm used to (a few pages of the Quran each couple of years or so) to give a definite answer. I'm making some assumptions on what ibn Shahrashub and al-Jawad would do, of course.

3. If by internal you mean a mucosa other than the mouth, it depends on how fast the poison is absorbed through it. The mouth has the advantage that (1) the blood circulation is very good, (2) it can be very hard not to swallow small quantities of whatever comes into contact with it and (3) things can seep through the oral mucosa (as those medications you put under the tongue do). If she didn't wash her parts carefully, there could be enough poison in her (let's say) nooks and crannies to cause an illness.

It is plausible and scientifically possible but the mythical status of that story in particular depends on religious restrictions to the practice.

I prefer the version where she used orange juice or grapes. Simpler and more effective than to wait for him to die from oral sex*.


*: Death by Charles Mingus. That sounds bad.


Edit: If you're interested, check out Alfred Taylor's "On Poisons" (https://archive.org/details/onpoisonsinrelat00tayl). It is a classic of toxicology, about 180 years old, with thousands of cases.

[Edited on 24-1-2025 by bnull]

sarinox - 24-1-2025 at 14:00

Quote: Originally posted by bnull  
@sarinox: Thanks. There's really no English translation.

3. If by internal you mean a mucosa other than the mouth, it depends on how fast the poison is absorbed through it. The mouth has the advantage that (1) the blood circulation is very good, (2) it can be very hard not to swallow small quantities of whatever comes into contact with it and (3) things can seep through the oral mucosa (as those medications you put under the tongue do). If she didn't wash her parts carefully, there could be enough poison in her (let's say) nooks and crannies to cause an illness.

It is plausible and scientifically possible but the mythical status of that story in particular depends on religious restrictions to the practice.

I prefer the version where she used orange juice or grapes. Simpler and more effective than to wait for him to die from oral sex*.


*: Death by Charles Mingus. That sounds bad.


Edit: If you're interested, check out Alfred Taylor's "On Poisons" (https://archive.org/details/onpoisonsinrelat00tayl). It is a classic of toxicology, about 180 years old, with thousands of cases.

[Edited on 24-1-2025 by bnull]


Hi bnull,

And thank you for your reply. As you and others have probably guessed, this story is most likely a mere myth and nothing more. The fact that the book itself mentions two different methods of assassination supports the claim that the whole story might be a fabrication. However, as DraconicAcid mentioned earlier, I was already familiar with the concept of using the body to poison others (such as the method described by DraconicAcid, involving rubbing poison on the skin to kill someone). I initially thought this was just a concept from modern-day TV series or movies and nothing more.

That was until I came across this book, which describes such a method. The consequent illness, and the specific organ affected, seemed to align with logic. This piqued my curiosity and led me to ask for your-you folks- thoughts. I figured you might make a better guess than mine and possibly identify a poison that could kill a grown man in a matter of hours while taking months to affect the woman, knowing that she did not ingest the poison but applied it to her private parts.

And sure I will check Alfred Taylor's Book! Thanks for sharing :-)

sarinox - 24-1-2025 at 14:04

Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid  


There was a CSI episode about women drugging men using nipple-applied substances that turned out similarly.

[Edited on 24-1-2025 by DraconicAcid]


Thank you for your reply,

And yes I was familiar with such concept ( a similar method is shown in another series I used to watch) However, I haven't seen a report of such events! That made me curious! So, I came here and asked you guys.