Sciencemadness Discussion Board

MnO2 on graphite rod for electrolisis of chlorate/bromate

plante1999 - 18-8-2011 at 08:24

How can I make an hard coat of MnO2 on a porous graphite/carbon rod for electrolisisi of chlorate/bromate ( a coat that wont make residu in the electrolite)?

Thanks!

White Yeti - 18-8-2011 at 12:34

This subject has been pounded to death on this forum. If you did a little research, electrolysing a solution of manganese sulphate and sulfuric acid with the carbon electrode as anode and copper electrode as cathode, a hard deposit of manganese dioxide will form on the carbon anode.

plante1999 - 18-8-2011 at 17:27

I already have try it but the coat flake of when electrolising in a chloride sol.

I have read that a TiO2 doppant make the coat harder (make with a solube Ti III salt) , wath do you think?

[Edited on 19-8-2011 by plante1999]

White Yeti - 19-8-2011 at 02:08

Manganese dioxide is a terrible substance to use lead dioxide is much better.

blogfast25 - 19-8-2011 at 07:12

Plante:

Search for it on Nurdrage's UToob channel. He has a good video on coating some metal with MnO2 (but not graphite). Could be a starting point for ya.
Quote: Originally posted by White Yeti  
Manganese dioxide is a terrible substance to use lead dioxide is much better.


Yeah, and lead dioxide is sooo fantastic! ;)

[Edited on 19-8-2011 by blogfast25]

plante1999 - 19-8-2011 at 08:49

I dont want to mess with lead product ( even if I have alot of PbO2 (more than 4 pound).

plante1999 - 19-8-2011 at 11:30

Does someone know were I cn get cheaply mangnese sulfate?

I have used all the self-made one.


[Edited on 19-8-2011 by plante1999]

[Edited on 19-8-2011 by plante1999]

Mixell - 19-8-2011 at 11:39

Its sometimes sold as a fertilizer on ebay, very cheaply too.

blogfast25 - 19-8-2011 at 12:06

Quote: Originally posted by Mixell  
Its sometimes sold as a fertilizer on ebay, very cheaply too.


Sure you're not thinking of magnesium sulphate (Epsom Salt, or English Salt in some languages - a commong garden chemical), and not manganese sulphate? As a fertiliser MnSO4 would really have to be used very, very sparingly, IMHO...

Plante: your best and quickest bet is probably potter's MnCO3. Sometimes on eBay...

[Edited on 19-8-2011 by blogfast25]

plante1999 - 19-8-2011 at 12:12

Is the electrodeposited coat of MnO2 is suposed to e hard enough for electrolisis?

I have made some test and the coat seem to flake of , does the conssentration of Mn II can be responcible for this?



[Edited on 19-8-2011 by plante1999]

sternman318 - 19-8-2011 at 12:22

Quote: Originally posted by plante1999  
Does someone know were I cn get cheaply mangnese sulfate?

I have used all the self-made one.


[Edited on 19-8-2011 by plante1999]

[Edited on 19-8-2011 by plante1999]


http://alphachemicals.com/manganese_sulfate

Very cheap, have lots of other useful stuff aswell. I have bought a fair amount of chemicals from them, they are a great source.

blogfast25 - 20-8-2011 at 05:30

Very cheap indeed, sternman.

plante1999 - 20-8-2011 at 11:21

Does anyone have the quantity of H2SO4 and MnSO4 I should have in my solution for plating MnO2?


Thanks!!!

White Yeti - 21-8-2011 at 05:14

See NurdRage's video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjKYiu8eKa8

plante1999 - 21-8-2011 at 05:54

I have seen it but he use thermal decomposition of Mn(NO3)2 , witch is very hard to make here ecausenitrate are very rare.

White Yeti - 21-8-2011 at 11:17

If you were patient enough to watch the whole video, you would have seen the part where he shows you how to electrodeposit manganese dioxide onto an electrode surface.

dann2 - 21-8-2011 at 13:41

Xenoid tried putting MnO2 onto gouging rods with little success.
See:
http://sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=8592&p...
Posts around 20 June 2007

The raging nurd uses Ti, it works great. No need for Cobalt Oxide IMO.

http://www.oxidizing.110mb.com/chlorate/mno2.html

RAOTFP

Dann2

plante1999 - 24-8-2011 at 06:43

So plating of MnO2 on carbon rod does not work. If I take carbon/graphite powder and I mix it with Styrene than press it in a 5/16 inch inside diameter tube with a 2000 lb press and I lets it cure for some day , should it make a suitable carbon/graphite anode?


Or mixing carbon/graphite powder with 20% furfuryl alcohol press it and fire it at 1000 C for 5 houre many time to make glassy carbon bonded graphite anode?

[Edited on 24-8-2011 by plante1999]

White Yeti - 24-8-2011 at 12:05

Quote: Originally posted by plante1999  
So plating of MnO2 on carbon rod does not work. If I take carbon/graphite powder and I mix it with Styrene than press it in a 5/16 inch inside diameter tube with a 2000 lb press and I lets it cure for some day , should it make a suitable carbon/graphite anode?


Or mixing carbon/graphite powder with 20% furfuryl alcohol press it and fire it at 1000 C for 5 houre many time to make glassy carbon bonded graphite anode?

[Edited on 24-8-2011 by plante1999]


*facepalm*
Is titanium and HCl that difficult to obtain?! Why bother with a flaky carbon substrate when you can use chemically inert titanium? Even galvanized steel will work better as a substrate than carbon. Who cares if the substrate is resistant to chlorine, you will end up coating the substrate with a chemically resistant coating anyway. My advice, use high carbon steel as a substrate. Why high carbon you ask? For structural integrity I say. You know how to galvanize steel, so galvanize the high carbon steel. Coat the substrate, not with manganese dioxide, but with lead dioxide, a very thick coat. You will then be the proud owner of a cheap, structurally sound, chemically resistant, perchlorate capable anode for producing chlorates and perchlorates.
Yeti

cyanureeves - 24-8-2011 at 15:34

i dont know plante but if you keep up with your intresting ideas you are going to come up with something that will probably need a patent. i was using carbon rods and just for the heck of it i tried a titanium annode and now i got about 5 times the bubbles. the bad thing is i didnt boil the potassium chloride to separate the hypochlorite and am not producing salt,or maybe its because i'm using tap water. must titanium metal be used as a substrate for the manganese sulfate?that manganese sulfate sure is cheap but battery crud is dirt cheap and the oxalic acid used is also cool to have. i cant believe the "titanium kid"has every titanium compound known to man ,except titanium. i bet someone could mail you a 2 by 4 inch piece with a single liberty postage stamp.

[Edited on 24-8-2011 by cyanureeves]

plante1999 - 24-8-2011 at 16:19

Quote: Originally posted by cyanureeves  
I cant believe the "titanium kid"has every titanium compound known to man ,except titanium.

[Edited on 24-8-2011 by cyanureeves]


Very funny,(I dont have every titanium compound know to man but I have many of them) I have titanium as small piece but no titanium rod.

Titanium cannot be used as a substrate for bromate production , for titanium bromate is the hell ( in fact it is why I want bromate)

White Yeti - 25-8-2011 at 00:05

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Quote: Originally posted by White Yeti  
Manganese dioxide is a terrible substance to use lead dioxide is much better.


Yeah, and lead dioxide is sooo fantastic! ;)

[Edited on 19-8-2011 by blogfast25]


A lead dioxide coating is not that much more harmful to your health than a manganese dioxide. If you think about it, you're only depositing less than 500mg of lead dioxide, if not less. The real dangers arise when handling water soluble lead salts. Since lead dioxide is insoluble in water, it only causes acute lead poisoning when inhaled. When a lead dioxide anode is made properly, and if the necessary health precautions are taken, it shouldn't be a health hazard.

One thing that sould be taken into consideration is that the leftover water soluble lead salts should be disposed of properly. The best way to dispose of them would be to bubble hydrogen sulfide through to obtain lead sulfide, which is one of the safest lead compounds to handle. Hydrogen sulfide itself is toxic, so proper safety equipment should be worn and safety measures should be employed.

plante1999 - 25-8-2011 at 16:10

The probleme isn't lead poisoning but the salt itself , I dont have more than vinegar for acetic acid and no nitrate so.....

White Yeti - 26-8-2011 at 08:02

...so use a powerful oxidizer like hydrogen peroxide or hypochlorous acid (obtained by mixing sodium hypochlorite and vinegar). That should give the lead the umpf it needs to dissolve in a weak acid like acetic acid. The resulting salt will be lead acetate, a notoriously poisonous salt, so I hope you have all the required safety equipment...

[Edited on 8-26-2011 by White Yeti]

Glucose Oxidase - 31-12-2012 at 08:56

MnSO4 is also a laxative sometimes sold in pharmacies try to get it from there.:)

bbartlog - 31-12-2012 at 15:49

Quote: Originally posted by Glucose Oxidase  
MnSO4 is also a laxative sometimes sold in pharmacies try to get it from there.:)


Manganous sulfate is poisonous. You are thinking (maybe) of Magnesium sulfate.

Glucose Oxidase - 4-1-2013 at 14:08

True indeed bbartlog, sorry for the mixing :(