Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Is it possible to get sick from potassium ferrocyanide?

Is it possible to get sick from potassium ferrocyanide?

seashell1982 - 22-2-2012 at 10:55

I just heated some potassium ferrocyanide trihydrate in an attempt to make it anhydrous. I had some skin contact, although I wore a mask. In the past hour, I have experienced dizziness, lightheadedness, rapid heart rate, etc. Are my symptoms from this chemical, or could they be psychological in origin (working with cyanide)?

bahamuth - 22-2-2012 at 11:31

Could perhaps be hydrogen cyanide, but don't worry, if you aren't dead yet you most likely won't be from that poisoning.

Had the same effects you describing from hydrogen azide poisoning, went away in about a couple of hours. Might add that the panic effect probaly didn't help on the symptoms.

Read up on the toxicity of potassium ferrocyanide trihydrate and its thermal decomposition products and you'll be much calmer (you need alot to die and you usually die quite fast from cyanide poisoning...).

Hexavalent - 22-2-2012 at 12:17

Why was skin contact allowed? You should have been wearing gloves. Did you bother to read the MSDS?

seashell1982 - 22-2-2012 at 12:30

Quote: Originally posted by Hexavalent

Why was skin contact allowed? You should have been wearing gloves. Did you bother to read the MSDS?

It sounded to me like skin contact would be a minor issue. Maybe I was wrong.

zoombafu - 22-2-2012 at 12:54

From a MSDS "Prolonged or repeated skin contact may cause dermatitis", you're not going to die from skin irritation. Just make sure you wear gloves and long sleeve lab coat in the future.

by the way I've freaked myself out before thinking that I would die because I (accidentally) inhaled a little bit of Cl2 and got dizzy.

[Edited on 22-2-2012 by zoombafu]

Peskatore - 22-2-2012 at 13:03

It is posible to get HCN then potassium ferrocyanide is heated?

Magpie - 22-2-2012 at 13:11

Quote: Originally posted by RisingSun96815

It sounded to me like skin contact would be a minor issue.

I agree. See MSDS:

http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/DisplayMSDSContent.do

zoombafu - 22-2-2012 at 13:13

Quote: Originally posted by Peskatore

It is posible to get HCN then potassium ferrocyanide is heated?

Yes. All the information asked for in this thread so far can be found in MSDS reports. Read them before using a chemical you are unfamiliar with.

Hexavalent - 22-2-2012 at 13:17

Agreed, although it is good lab practice to wear safety gear when handling any chemical . . .principle more than anything.

Magpie - 22-2-2012 at 13:29

I would bet that RisingSun is a careful worker and has read the MSDS. It seems that he is not feeling normal (for what ever reason) and is looking for some help from the forum.

Hexavalent - 22-2-2012 at 13:46

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie

I would bet that RisingSun is a careful worker and has read the MSDS. It seems that he is not feeling normal (for what ever reason) and is looking for some help from the forum.

Fair enough, although as I said if he were a careful worker then he would know to wear gloves and goggles, no matter what materials are actually being handled - be it a 0.1M MgSO4 solution or saturated potassium dichromate solution.

Endimion17 - 22-2-2012 at 15:04

Quote: Originally posted by Hexavalent

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie

I would bet that RisingSun is a careful worker and has read the MSDS. It seems that he is not feeling normal (for what ever reason) and is looking for some help from the forum.

Bullcrap. Who wears gloves and GOGGLES when handling a 0.1 M MgSO4 solution?
Working in a lab and allowing oneself to fall in the state of becoming a drone without a brain is something a chemist should never allow to happen.

Bot0nist - 22-2-2012 at 17:02

While I agree that there is no need to become mindless in the lab, donning goggles and nitrile gloves is as much of a habit for me when entering the lab as putting on my seat belt when entering a car. I do it without thinking about it, and I see nothing wrong with always keeping safety in mind when in the lab, even if the days work is rather innocuous. For me the habit was pounded into my head by OSHA compliance at work, and the habit carries over to my home lab. I see no harm at all in wearing gloves, goggles, and a lab apron when entering my lab. I would say it is a habit that has probably saved me from injury during some of the unforeseen goof ups that happen from time to time.

[Edited on 23-2-2012 by Bot0nist]

neptunium - 23-2-2012 at 09:27

i agree , its not so much the chemicals involved in a reaction but the simple fact that i am in a lab and even if i am disolving NaCl in water i am still surrounded by other much nastier things and since i am rather clumsy i dont take any chances...

[Edited on 23-2-2012 by neptunium]

GreenD - 23-2-2012 at 09:46

everytime I make certain "teas" i get light headed and dizzy from the fumes (water vapor). It is very easy for the mind to create a problem.

neptunium - 23-2-2012 at 09:54

some people are more sensitve than other and the psychology of it when it comes to chemicals is way out of my confort zone ...all i know is if i ever try to make mercury dimethyl (unlikely!!) i would be very nervous and pay close attention to my health, and even the most insignificant change would really freak me out!

Hexavalent - 23-2-2012 at 10:13

Thankyou Bot0nist. As neptunium says, the other day I personally was dissolving some NaCl into water at varying molal concentrations to determine the Mr via BP elevation. I had a beaker full of saturated CuCl2 solution at the back of the bench. Hotplate hit it, it fell over and spread a corrosive liquid all around the metal frames that surround the bench. Shit.

That is why you should always wear gloves and goggles in the lab, it is preparing in case the worst does happen.

Endimion17 - what if I was heating my MgSO4 solution and some splashed out due to superheating? Hot water in my eye, vs hot water hitting some goggles. Hmm, tough choice.

Jor - 23-2-2012 at 11:31

Hexavalent quote:
what if I was heating my MgSO4 solution and some splashed out due to superheating? Hot water in my eye, vs hot water hitting some goggles. Hmm, tough choice.

So you also wear goggle when cooking in the kitchen?

neptunium - 23-2-2012 at 11:32

its getting hard to find spare parts for eyes and skin...i am an older model they dont make mine anymore

GreenD - 23-2-2012 at 11:49

Quote: Originally posted by Jor

So you also wear goggle when cooking in the kitchen?

Always

Wizzard - 23-2-2012 at 11:54

In practice, I just say don't work with anything which can explode, bump, splatter, poison (short term, sub mL amounts) until you have it in your mind to ALWAYS wear goggles/gloves. If you're only going to wear it SOMETIMES, you're going to forget or skimp and put yourself in harms way.

Bot0nist - 23-2-2012 at 11:58

Quote: Originally posted by Jor

So you also wear goggle when cooking in the kitchen?

As I said, it is a habit that was pounded into me by years of OSHA compliance classes. I don't wear PPE while cooking, but I never even enter my lab without a lab coat, gloves, and goggles. It is not that I'm scared. It is a habit of mine before entering the lab. I do it almost without thought. IMO it is a good habit to get into. Better than habitually forgetting to wear eye protection when you need it.

"I'd rather have 'em and not need 'em, then need 'em and not have 'em"

[Edited on 23-2-2012 by Bot0nist]

neptunium - 23-2-2012 at 11:58

in the kitchen ? come on man, really? are we going there ? just use common sense you'll be fine

AirCowPeaCock - 23-2-2012 at 12:26

I usually don't wear goggles, because the sash is always between what I'm working with and my face. And goggles tend to fog up or impair my vision in other ways, causing accidents. But I always wear a lab coat and heavy gloves (usually rubber, they're more comfortable). I consider my laboratory and everything in it fatally toxic, whether it is or not--and that does me no harm. Better safe than sorry.

Hexavalent - 23-2-2012 at 12:30

You probably should still wear goggles. I thought of using some of that stuff they spray into your helmet when you go paintballing to avoid steaming up for the same purpose but in the lab.

AirCowPeaCock - 23-2-2012 at 12:40

I know I should, if something explodes the glass could break and create a bigger problem than before. I'm just going to buy a full face shield one of these days.

Hexavalent - 23-2-2012 at 12:42

Ah, the foolishness. A face shield is a SUPPLEMENT for glasses or goggles, NOT a replacement.

[Edited on 24-2-2012 by Hexavalent]

AirCowPeaCock - 23-2-2012 at 12:46

You sound like my dad.

neptunium - 23-2-2012 at 12:56

wow! ok.
you know rain X could work against fogging up ...i dont think there is any methanol in it..

Hexavalent - 23-2-2012 at 12:56

Concerned for your safety!

neptunium - 23-2-2012 at 12:59

i do wear goggles! and this pair is fine to me it doesnt fog up...i dont understand what the big deal is

Hexavalent - 23-2-2012 at 13:01

No, no, I was talking about AirCow's belief that I sound like his Dad

DJF90 - 23-2-2012 at 16:43

Quote:

Ah, the foolishness. A face shield is a SUBSTITUTE for glasses or goggles, NOT a replacement

I believe the word you are really looking for here is SUPPLEMENT

Bot0nist - 23-2-2012 at 16:52

Yes, goggles for the eyes( good pairs don't fog up much) and a face Shield over it when working with grinders, pressing caps, shaking sulfuric acid with elemental bromine in a Sep funnel to dry it

, etc.

AirCowPeaCock - 23-2-2012 at 20:45

That last one was pretty specific, any story to go with it?

Bot0nist - 23-2-2012 at 20:48

Watch this. 4:45 and on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OB4MmPTOBxg

woelen - 24-2-2012 at 03:26

I don't use gloves, except for really nasty stuff or for stuff which quickly can pass through the skin (e.g. conc. H2SO4, conc. HNO3, mercury salts, liquid Br2, solutions in DMSO). I have a tap in the lab and if I get some chemicals on my hands, then I immediately rinse them away with some water. Without gloves I can feel much better and I certainly can handle things more safely than with (thick) gloves.

I have glasses and these provide some protection. Using goggles is the same for me as using gloves. Only in exceptional cases (e.g. when I work with small amounts of energetics in test tubes or when I think there is a chance of strong splashing) I use goggles.

Usually I do not do very dangerous experiments and if I play around with energetics then I use exceptionally small quantities (tens of mg, little heap on the tip of a small screwdriver). I personally think that the use of very small quantities is the best safety measure one can take. Many experiments work equally well with 50 mg as with 1 gram, but are a lot safer with 50 mg. This is true for the risk of fire, explosion and the risk of poisoning yourself.

Magpie - 24-2-2012 at 09:44

My practice in the lab is very similar to woelen's regarding gloves and safety glasses. I do have the advantage of an efficient hood with a double pane safety glass sash. I perform all my experiments in my hood, but only turn the fan on when I think it is needed. Same with the sash - I pull it down when needed.

I emphasize keeping the rest of the lab clean, ie, practice good hygiene by cleaning up glassware and disposing waste promptly. I do a full range of chemistry with emphasis on organic. Most of my inorganic preps are to support my organic experiments. Also my scale is usually around 10 grams.

In regard to potassium ferrocyanide, I weigh it out for drying using no safety equipment. I use a spoon so I never actually touch it. I have read the MSDS and see no reason to wear gloves or goggles. Like woelen I wear glasses. Linus Pauling in his General Chemistry textbook says that ferrocyanide is so stable that it is even difficult to get it to react with acid. I assume he means at room temperature.

White Yeti - 24-2-2012 at 13:17

These symptoms sound more like a panic attack than poisoning. I think what could have happened was that you THOUGHT for a moment that you heated the compound to decomposition temperature, at which point you feared cyanide poisoning.

Having been in a similar position before, I can relate to it and I know it's not fun. The brain is really good at playing tricks.

As mentioned before, if the symptoms have passed, sit back and take a deep breath of fresh air, you are not under any immediate danger. The symptoms of cyanide poisoning are quite different, rapid heart rate not being one of them.

Hope this was helpful.

Panache - 27-2-2012 at 07:12

Several years ago there was a fatality at the facility i was working in involving skin contact with Kferrocyanide. Its not as innocous as one might think.
After the investigation by the university the death was attributed not to the intial Kferrocyanide skin contact, which had been widely blamed for the fatality, rather it seems the next twenty seven tonnes of the chemical that sluiced out of the hopper crushed and asphysixated him.
People still dispute the finding, the university has now altered its practices and trains people not to stick poles directly up into open hoppers in an effort to loosen the caked up chemicals.
Apparently he was wearing gloves and goggles but was texting at the time of the accident.
His concentration may have been diverted because its really hard to text message wearing huge pvc gloves. The university has now banned this practice,
I should work for the onion

This story is not true, rather it is a witty aside.