Sciencemadness Discussion Board

dumbing down science

neptunium - 7-3-2012 at 21:04

as i am sitting here at my computer and my wife is watching a pre-recorded episode of jersey whores...(oops)
i cannot help to think and witness how low TV programing got.
now big rich texas is on ....and although i am still not sure what this show is about , i just wanted to know if anybody else noticed how STUPID TV got lately?

And by lately i mean the last 20 years...

The very country who put a man on the moon in the vacuum tubes era, is the very same country that broadcast such nonsense and dumb entertainement.

what happened to educational entertainement of my childhood ?
is science still relevant? or is entertainemet means dumb show like dance moms?

is it wrong or bad to be or want to be educated?

how did science ended up being an outcast in TV programing?

over 200 channel and only 1 of science? and even that is being dumb down!! i mean "big bigger biggest" ???

where are we going as people? as a country? does every knowledgeable people will be foreign born?

come on america? you can easily do better than that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


can you??? sometimes i wonder!

jamit - 7-3-2012 at 23:01

I can't agree more... in general everything on tv is trash... its getting worse and there is an endless need to do more bizarre and perverse things in order to entertain and to keep the rating.

I can't be optimistic as you are about america... I love the country and its history (though not perfect but which country has been better than the US, I can't think of any in doing the most good) but as far as moral and scientific education is concerned we are in big big trouble.

My son, who is an 8th grader, tells me that when he tried to read extra science material that were handed out in class, his friends thought it was a waste of time. They have absolutely no interest -- beyond the latest video games and sports. My son loves sports, but he is also very interested in alternative source of energy other than fossil fuel. I'm encouraging him to study more on the subject and to read and study it so that he might make it his career to become a scientist ... or at least be scientifically educated whatever he might do with his life. Of course, I'm doing all kinds of chemistry experiments with my kids, to foster scientific thinking and reasoning, both through logic, experimentation, and fun.

Anyway, as far as tv and science is concerned, its a losing battle. Kids would rather watch endless dumb-down tv shows over educational science. Schools won't get kids excited about science, its up to the parents to get involved and to show them the "wonders" of the world and to help them discover its secrets -- that's what I love about chemistry!!!

Anyway, that's my thought on the subject... depressing eh?



[Edited on 8-3-2012 by jamit]

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[Edited on 8-3-2012 by jamit]

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[Edited on 8-3-2012 by jamit]

neptunium - 7-3-2012 at 23:24

well Jamit i am glad to see that some people at least still home school their childrens, but yes it is very depressing..

you are doing the right thing though, motivating the kids and getting them interested in science is an upmost priority .and if ignored the problem will get out of control (if it isnt already)

how do we fight back now? without being called a loser or a terrorist?

why is it so hard to compete with stupidity?





[Edited on 8-3-2012 by neptunium]

zoombafu - 7-3-2012 at 23:47

The thing that I hate the most is that the History/discovery/science channels have all started excessively showing crap 24/7 about the coming 2012 apocalypse. While this can be interesting, I think that the majority of the programing now is based around conspiracy theories, and less around actual science.

Lithium - 8-3-2012 at 00:00

yes, i have noticed that nobody shows interest in science in my class, and we are in science 1! we were shown a movie about atoms, and everyone was saying things like, oh this is stupid, and, omg i am so going to fail. my science teacher caught me drawing chemical equations in my book and didn't know what to do!:)

i believe people have the mentality that doing science is "nerdy", or that they will fail before they try:o

what has society become.

Li

[Edited on 8-3-2012 by Lithium]

woelen - 8-3-2012 at 00:21

Over the past 30 years we have seen that the quality of the media, measured in terms of useful and educational content is inversely proportional to the quality of the media, measured in terms of resolution, network bandwidth and sound and image reproduction.

Broken Gears - 8-3-2012 at 00:45

Here in Denmark people are very much into science. I think that the goverment realized that we will not survice on hard labor, because of the competition from poorer countries that have low salaries. So we have to make our money on technology and know-how.
But the shit on tv is the same problem here. Reality tv showing young people getting drunk, partying and getting paid at the same time.
I really think that the media is damaging the moral of everybody. Its not ALWAYS: "monkey see, monkey do", but sometimes it is.
I feel bad for the youth here... and Im not even 30 yet

neptunium - 8-3-2012 at 06:26

looks like they get it in Denmark! they understand whats at stake.

i agree with zoombafu as well, discovery has reached new level of sillyness i thought west coast chopper were the dumbest !

History and H2 also stand out in stupidity with ancient aliens.

Nat/Geo was doing good untill border wars and all that cop thing..

if someone doesnt get hurt/drunk/pissed/arrested the show is a bust!

I dont beleive in conspiracy (too dumb to keep it secret maybe?) but TV progaming are feeding what people want to watch, so its up to us to say NO!

some people who watch theses shows have very little interest in politics, and probably wont vote anyway ! so they wont know why their show was cancelled and likely wont investigate why.

Endimion17 - 8-3-2012 at 08:20

I've tried to watch History channel. Let's just say the attempt lasted for less than half an hour. What a [B]shithouse[/B]. A terrible shame.
NG is not what it used to be. I remember it was just filled with documentaries being presented using a genuine scientific curiosity and amazement (Attenborough!). I could watch a fucking ant nibbling a leaf while listening to the presenter encouraging all that.

Nowdays, it's all "OMG WOOOOOW SO HUGE YEEEEEAH SO BIG DESTRUCTION EXPLOSION AMAGAAAD EXTREME!!!11!" :o:o:o
Have the people become tired? Have their senses become dulled, so that they only react to violent and mad shit on the screen?

Honestly, what the fuck happened?
And it's not just main Western media. It happens all over the globe.

Everytime I get home for the holidays, I see my folks dumbed down a little bit more. They just sit there, fixed on the screens, watching plain MINDBLOWING rubbish. Turkish soap operas (yeah, all of a sudden it became a huge hit, it's the same crap as Mexican ones, only with weirder language, more facial hair and irritating Eastern music), reality shows with incredibly stupid people and hosts, ever dumber newscasts.
Late night is reserved for charlatans. Swinging pendulums, tarot, astrology. Luckily, my folks aren't into that.
Our public broadcast network even included one pseudoscientific show in the "science and education programme", so few scientists made a public notice about it. It was kind of a big deal few years ago, but without much success.

As someone who had the chance to really witness and understand the the downfall of TV quality during the last 20+ years, I can say it hurts. Younger people aren't bothered by this because they only know bad TV, so they can't do a comparison.

Mirage - 8-3-2012 at 08:36

Or how about mythbusters, when they started, like 9 or 10 season ago, they incorporated a lot more science (low level albeit) then they do now. All it is now is, "OOOOOOHHHH, EXPLOSIONS! SLOW MOTION" I beleive it has changed into more of an entertainment show now than an educational show.

Mirage

Quote: Originally posted by zoombafu  
The thing that I hate the most is that the History/discovery/science channels have all started excessively showing crap 24/7 about the coming 2012 apocalypse. While this can be interesting, I think that the majority of the programing now is based around conspiracy theories, and less around actual science.

bfesser - 8-3-2012 at 09:12

Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
Over the past 30 years we have seen that the quality of the media, measured in terms of useful and educational content is inversely proportional to the quality of the media, measured in terms of resolution, network bandwidth and sound and image reproduction.

Quoted for truth.

If and when I have children, I plan to show them the educational television programs I watched when I was younger. <em><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nova_(TV_series)" target="_blank">NOVA</a></em> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" /> and <em><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beakman's_World" target="_blank">Beakman's World</a></em> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" /> would be at the top of the programming schedule. For those of you who haven't heard of <em>Beakman's World</em>, it's similar in most respects to <em><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Nye_the_Science_Guy" target="_blank">Bill Nye the Science Guy</a></em> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" /> but predated it by about a year. The former is also more entertaining to watch as an adult than the latter&mdash;some dark humor I never picked up as a child.

[Edited on 7/23/13 by bfesser]

GreenD - 8-3-2012 at 09:27

I stick with netflix's documentaries. They are almost all great, and I don't get polluted with bullshit capitalistic commercials litter with sex appeal and prostate cancer.

I would really like to get the channel "curiosity" but you have to pay for like 40 other channels.

I remember once sitting in a pizza parlor and CNN was on their complimentary big-screen. It was during the arab spring in egypt. Over and over and over (literally 30+ times) they played a clip of a limosine running over about 15-20 protesters at 60 mph if not faster. I became sick to my stomach but I could not for the life of me understand why they showed the clip at all, let alone looping it. Over. And over. And over.

Needless to say arms and limbs were all over the place and I'm sure a good portion of those people died. I can't stand the media. It is a giant fear- mongering machine.

[Edited on 8-3-2012 by GreenD]

neptunium - 8-3-2012 at 11:12

i used to get the discovery channel on sirius radio a few years back (2004) they had intersting talk shows and documentary about egyptology, cosmology, biochemistry etc...i really enjoyed it when driving long hours (i drive a semi)
it was cancelled and replaced by not 1 but 3 sports channel.
I called Sirius (before they merged with Xm) and asked them how many sports channels they needed to have on top of the already 10 or 12 ..They said it was regretable but according to their survey and polls thats what people wanted!
I never got polled! who are they asking to? who the hell is answering theses polls???

i beleive it though, the media ,the TV channels are in business to make money so if thats what people want to pay a subscribtion for then who could blame them?

greedy bastards!

tastyphenome - 8-3-2012 at 11:32

the few safe coves, hist/disc/sci have all resorted to bullshit semi-reality blue collar shows involving people from the south. like its trendy.

now i enjoy the occupational shows occasionally, but not once they go into character development. dirty jobs, okay. swamp men/blly the exterminator/etc and just DUMB and a waste of time. no data conveyed.

tho i am glad hist got beyond the pre 2000 Hitler channel deal. it was good for a while, now its just bleeeeh.

now i have netflix and a slow connection... no use there.

might i say you all should give This American Life a try. a treal try, find one you like and your life will never be the same. i find the radio format to be FAR superior to video when it comes to science. i absorb SO much more because i am forced to entertain the whole thing in my head and draw pictures, you dont slip into that theta wave hypnosis.

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives

and Radiolab, if you can find them, not put out as publicly as TAL. The two guys who do this show have a very fun way of isolating a very small idea, then blowing it up huge, then condensing it down to give you goose bumps! but otherwise two shows have been my primary mind blower for about 4 years now.

the people involved in producing these two shows are the only people i trust anymore....

not all of it is about science, but most is, and the stuff that is not is just as mind blowing. okay. thats my npr plug, the membership drive is now over on scimad!

EDIT: Thisd goes along with the serius thing. There is a huge problem with tv. the idea that you should make what ppl want to watch is wrong. people will watch what you tell them they want to. so stop suppling the heroin and start putting out quality. fuck polls. just cuz it polls bad does not mean pull it. it means maybe you are not putting enough effort into it. if you keep using polls to decide things, it will snowball and end up like TV from Idiocracy. just a guy getting kicked in the nuts and 20 ads floating across the screen.

[Edited on 8-3-2012 by tastyphenome]

GreenD - 8-3-2012 at 12:04

Its bogus. My room mate wakes up every morning and watches a recap sports show that basically sums up every fu**ing sports event of the previous day in 30 seconds and moves on to the next one. Every morning I come in and say "Hey how are them sports doing?" He just nods and goes back to hypnosis.

My girlfriend says often "I know I shouldn't watch this but amagawd have you ever seen the show (insert some kind of physical problem with the body here)? There was this girl.." Oh GOD. WHY DO YOU WATCH THIS MINDLESS SH&T.

Watching a good sports game - sure I get it. Watching every sports game? How can you get excited about that?

Don't even get me started on the history channel. They come up with pure bullsh&t to fill in the minutes. Literallyu pulling shit out of their asses.

I'm not kidding when this was displayed on one of their "UFO" shows:
http://funkydowntown.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/mona-lis...

mr.crow - 8-3-2012 at 12:21

Maybe this belongs in Whimsy? I don't have access to it, nor do I really want to

WARNING, RANT AHEAD

Yes it is a business designed to make money off of you. By paying for it you support it.

Cancel your cable or satellite. You are paying tons of money per month on channels you never even watch. If you like a certain TV series you can watch it on Netflix or download it for free with bit torrent. You can also build a HDTV antenna out of coat hangers and get some basic free channels.

Also stop seeing shitty movies. They aren't even real any more, just computer generated crack fantasies with actors in front of a green screen. By consuming the latest Transformers movie, for example, you are paying for an industry that is now directly trying to influence the US government, and therefore every other government that sucks up to them, to promote Internet censorship and surveillance.

Maybe this is just a symptom of a deeper sickness in society. Even in Canada I am exposed daily to the republican primaries in the States. How these people exist and get votes is beyond me. As power slips away from them every day they get more and more extreme and hateful

GreenD - 8-3-2012 at 12:46

Transformers was thought provoking I thought.

[Edited on 8-3-2012 by GreenD]

neptunium - 8-3-2012 at 14:41

the matrix was a bit better than transformer as far as thoughts provoking!

Mirage - 8-3-2012 at 14:42

Except there is no dark of the moon, (next to some crevasses etc.)

Quote: Originally posted by GreenD  
Transformers was thought provoking I thought.

[Edited on 8-3-2012 by GreenD]





Yes, Discovery has turned into more of a show about occupations than science. I don't understand AT ALL how swamp logger is education. All you need for those shows are "Sht, our truck broke. Gun take 2 weeks fer the new part. We's gunna lose money and have ta stop loggin' insert long phrase of profanity." if any of those shows are on, I just flip the tv off. There is absolutely nothing else.

I don't have a tv at home, but my grandparents do and that is where I watch any TV I do watch. My grandpa usually records AFV or just for laughs for me, and that's all I watch unless, something other than occupation shows are on disc.

Mirage


neptunium - 8-3-2012 at 15:06

through the wormhole woth Morgan Freeman is a pretty good show compare to the rest of whats on.

I think people refuse to have to do any thinking when watching TV. Skeptisiscm is gone.
if the TV (or youtube!) said it then it must be true.
no critical thinking !
The problem becomes scary when people stop thinking about the news, if the news reported it then it must be true .
we can no longer think for ourselves , looks like we need to be told what to think, do, how to have fun , what to eat, to wear, etc...
dangerous path.

obviously we need people to be hard working dumbasses we dont like thinkers and skeptics....sounds like the dark ages are back

AndersHoveland - 9-3-2012 at 00:12

Most american high schools used to have fairly well equiped chemistry laboratories- with "dangerous" acids, gas burners, and distillation setups. Then the country became overwhelmed with low income families with many children, and budget cuts had to be made. Many of the older schools, now in the crime-ridden inner cities, still have chemistry laboratories. They have just been locked and used as storage rooms. The middle class escaped into the suburbs long ago. But the new schools in the suburbs were smaller and not as nice, and not equiped with many of the luxuries of the old schools, including chemistry laboratories.

Most of the chemical business has been exported to China. Not anymore need for american chemical engineers. The only students that study chemistry now are just trying to fulfill requirements to go into the medical field.

American educational institutions have been dumbed down.
Part of the reason is the changing demographics and declining intelligence of public school students.
The other part of the reason is that public education has turned into politicised indoctrination. It is not really about preparing students for the rest of their life anymore. It is about subtly molding their beliefs...

Honestly, do american students even realise how unusually often their teachers talk over and over again about the "civil rights movement" and "the holocaust"? Racial anthropology classes have been renamed "cultural" anthropology, and apparently race does not exist anymore. Then there is sociology in the universities. Poverty should be eleminated, but what does that have to do with "equality"?

*(The mainstream histotical depiction of how jews were treated in nazi germany has become very distorted for political reasons. If I thought the events were even half like what is typically seen in televission, I would not have put the word holocaust in quotation marks. Do you even realise how many germans died of starvation before, during, and after the war? Little fact that the younger american generations have forgoten about, the concept of permanently eleminating the german peoples was widespread in american publications even before the first world war. The similarities between how Americans talked about germans and how the nazis talked about jews was very similar. The USA considered putting much of its german population into concentration camps, as it did with its japanese citizens. Indeed, the americans starved or mistreated german prisoners, including women, to death just like the jews got mistreated. The Americans have been accused of causing the deaths of more german prisoners and civilians during the occupation than the 6 million jews that the germans supposedly killed, but this never seems to get mentioned for some reason. Auswitz was like a vacation resort compared to some of the american run prisoner camps in Sinzig and Remagen. http://www.serendipity.li/hr/bacque01.htm It is unfortunate the horrible ethnic killings during that time have become so politicised that they cannot now be recorded in a neutral way. The real message of these events is that the true Holocausts are veiled under the guise of war and economic control, and that most of the murders are through depriving the victims of shelter and preventing them from growing food. The Jews are not entittled to any special monopoly to this word. Not historically, and certainly not now )

I say free trade and open borders are bad. Just look what it has done to science. The internet is the one good thing that has developed in recent years.

Sorry for the rant. It is just america's disasterous policies will soon be repeated here. You can keep your cheap trinkets and low-priced services from exploited workers! I want to keep the jobs and good affordable neighborhoods, with their schools that are not yet overburdened.

You ask why schools are being dumbed down?
The answer is simple: to meet demand!

Just compare the pre-1950 textbooks with those being used now. Huge difference!

[Edited on 9-3-2012 by AndersHoveland]

GreenD - 9-3-2012 at 07:01

What the hell are you talking about, do you know how many chemistry professors there are? how many american-chemical companies are? How much research goes on in the US related to chemistry? The united states education system hasn't gone DOWN, everyone else has gone UP.

What does any of this post have ANYTHING to do with the lower class and suburbia?! If I would comment on anything you said, A mod would come around and say I was off topic and threaten to ban me though, so I'll refrain from that.

DougTheMapper - 9-3-2012 at 09:15

Bill Nye got me into chemistry in the first place. The very first chemistry experiments I ever remember doing as a child of perhaps 5 or 6 were mimicking Bill Nye. I did the NaHCO3/AcOH volcano, cleaning a penny with NaCl/AcOH (in-situ HCl), the steam-powered jet boat from a cigar tube...

I also checked out a copy of 700 Science Experiments For Everyone extremely often from the elementary school library until my mother bought me my own copy.

At the time, DorlingKindersly and Eyewitness Books became my chief pastime. I fondly remember proudly explaining to my father about what CuSO4 was and what it was used for. Secretly I vowed that I would one day own some. (This was before you could just buy a couple kilos on the internet at the drop of a hat.)

I also reside in Detroit, perhaps an hour's drive from the Henry Ford Museum and Greenfield Village. Starting at a very early age, I have been there more times than I can count. I'm STILL fascinated by all the old equipment - huge engines, dynamos, old and enormous machines which shaped the history of the country...

My favorite part by far is Thomas Edison's Menlo Park laboratory; from my childhood I remember quite vividly looking at all the glass jars full of chemicals and shelves stocked with apparatus and vowing that one day I would have a lab like that. I wanted to be an "inventor" for a long time and would list that as my future occupation whenever school exercises required it.

I owe it to my parents for taking the time to take my siblings and I through factory tours, museums, science centers, "bring your child to work day", and that "Our Body" traveling exhibit.

It's a shame that these things are in steady decline - not only from the economy but simply lack of interest. Where I want to high school, more money and effort is pushed into the school football team than the Science Olympaid team and chemistry department combined! Sad.


Bot0nist - 9-3-2012 at 09:24

A Bill Nye here kid myself! I remember watching an episode as a boy about chlorine and sodium, how they are really reactive and dangerous but combined, they are table salt. Also about the formation of water through the ignition of H<sub>2</sub> in oxygen. I just remember feeling some profound sense of understanding in my preteen brain that I had not experienced before.

Quote:
Where I want to high school, more money and effort is pushed into the school football team than the Science Olympaid team and chemistry department combined! Sad.


Same here. It is depressing, considering our country's standing in the world in education.

[Edited on 9-3-2012 by Bot0nist]

watson.fawkes - 9-3-2012 at 10:24

Quote: Originally posted by AndersHoveland  
Sorry for the rant.
No, you're not sorry. You are a serial ranter. You keep doing it even when asked not to. Free advice: save your crocodile tears for people who don't know much about you.

Personally, I would appreciate it if you would post less, particularly everything about society and history that has nothing to do with science. This is a board about science. Because you have a tendency to remain dim about this point, I cannot figure out for the life of me how your words below about Nazis have even a shred of relevance to the topic of this board.
Quote: Originally posted by AndersHoveland  
*(The mainstream histotical depiction of how jews were treated in nazi germany has become very distorted for political reasons. If I thought the events were even half like what is typically seen in televission, I would not have put the word holocaust in quotation marks. Do you even realise how many germans died of starvation before, during, and after the war? Little fact that the younger american generations have forgoten about, the concept of permanently eleminating the german peoples was widespread in american publications even before the first world war. The similarities between how Americans talked about germans and how the nazis talked about jews was very similar. The USA considered putting much of its german population into concentration camps, as it did with its japanese citizens. Indeed, the americans starved or mistreated german prisoners, including women, to death just like the jews got mistreated. The Americans have been accused of causing the deaths of more german prisoners and civilians during the occupation than the 6 million jews that the germans supposedly killed, but this never seems to get mentioned for some reason. Auswitz was like a vacation resort compared to some of the american run prisoner camps in Sinzig and Remagen. http://www.serendipity.li/hr/bacque01.htm It is unfortunate the horrible ethnic killings during that time have become so politicised that they cannot now be recorded in a neutral way. The real message of these events is that the true Holocausts are veiled under the guise of war and economic control, and that most of the murders are through depriving the victims of shelter and preventing them from growing food. The Jews are not entittled to any special monopoly to this word. Not historically, and certainly not now )

Magpie - 9-3-2012 at 10:35

Quote: Originally posted by DougTheMapper  

My favorite part by far is Thomas Edison's Menlo Park laboratory; from my childhood I remember quite vividly looking at all the glass jars full of chemicals and shelves stocked with apparatus and vowing that one day I would have a lab like that.


That lab is on my bucket list. Last year I visited Edison's chemistry lab at West Orange, NJ. They have no roped off areas and you can get right up to the apparatus and reagents for a close inspection. Is that true at the relocated Menlo Park lab? Or is it roped off so you can't get up close?

neptunium - 9-3-2012 at 13:23

Quote: Originally posted by DougTheMapper  

It's a shame that these things are in steady decline - not only from the economy but simply lack of interest. Where I want to high school, more money and effort is pushed into the school football team than the Science Olympaid team and chemistry department combined! Sad.



you nailed it! nothing against sport (although..) but when it becomes a money making machine like it is now , its way over the top.

I just wish (as you said) more attention and money would be invested in getting kids interested in science, critical thinking and skepticism like we were..

[Edited on 9-3-2012 by neptunium]

tastyphenome - 9-3-2012 at 16:34

The only, ONLY thing i enjoyed about school before quitting/being expelled was the FIRST robotics competition. i learned more from that that any other single experience in my life. did it for 3 years, and will regret not becoming a real engineer/chemist the rest of my life. but i tell you what, FIRST also made me the best damn chef i could be. everything is engineering and chemistry.

Morgan - 10-3-2012 at 01:49

Presentation is everything.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/09/girl-drinks-gasolin...

[Edited on 10-3-2012 by Morgan]

White Yeti - 10-3-2012 at 10:26

YES, television is stupid. I can't agree more. But it is our choice as consumers to choose what we watch and don't watch, what we consume and what we don't consume.

A lot of people are complaining about how the canyon between the rich and the poor is getting wider and wider, but I will take a bold step and argue that the gap that separates the smart from the dumb is also getting wider and wider.

There are a whole bunch of factors that affect the intelligence of members of a society, but schooling is definitely key. The role of the school system should be to give the tools to succeed to those who are motivated and interested.

The present school system is based on a "no child left behind" ideology, but this does not work in the least. Effort wasted on those who don't want to learn is seen as a asset rather than a setback while in reality it's quite the opposite.

Consequence: those who are motivated must take classes 2-3 years in advance! I think it's the schooling system that is going down the drain. Science is seen as a subject you have to take, get a good grade on (85+). I see science as a different way to look at the world and how it works.

Society is harsh, but quite frankly, the best way to educate people is to take the cream of the crop and leave everyone else behind. It's what they do in Europe and it works like a charm.

This all stems back to cherished American beliefs of equal opportunity, majority rule and democracy. The consequence is that the media is now geared to the masses, not the knowledgeable people.

neptunium - 10-3-2012 at 13:07

dont forget parenting ! it is a key as much as schooling and education.
if you let your kids watch dumb shit on TV all day after a good day of learning at school ,you cancelling out everything they might have learned!

White Yeti - 10-3-2012 at 14:13

Ahh,

How could I forget! Parenting indeed affects child development as much, if not more than schooling, for better or worse. Neighbourhood and wealth also affect people's tendencies.

I'm a high school student, and I can't help but to think about all the people who fall into addiction and other bad habits. I didn't realise until recently that I go to school with relatively privileged people, whose parents are pretty well off.

And yet I go to school with people who whine about the ills of society and how everything they teach at school is wrong, and that you can be successful without going to school. They don't realise that by whining, they are not improving the situation and that they're making it worse. They also don't realise that they've got everything they need, they have a roof over their heads, they have food to eat they have money (which they spend foolishly), they have computers, iPods, iPads etc...

Wanting an escape from it all, they take on marijuana and other drugs that can destroy a brilliant mind beyond repair. A friend of mine was a top student sophomore year and the year after, he dropped from being one of the best to one of the worst as he took up marijuana and who knows what else.

This shows that you don't necessarily need to live in a cut-throat neighbourhood to be pulled towards drugs and crime. In some ways, there are some very intelligent people who come from disadvantaged neighbourhoods, they seek personal betterment through hard work and education.

Maybe the wealth of the previous generation is simply spoiling this one. They've got every comfort they could ever want, and they want more, but they want it handed to them on a silver platter. They cannot work even if their lives depended on it, which sooner or later will be the case.

The media is oriented towards those people, they generate the demand for stupidity, TV simply fills the vacuum.

Morgan - 10-3-2012 at 14:32

"The most important lesson"
http://i.imgur.com/uWfrU.jpg

tastyphenome - 10-3-2012 at 16:39

im pretty sure that show is fake....

but regardless, i read alot about Hg a week ago and came across a huge school HG contam that was caused by kids not knowing what Hg was... i mean hell, i knew when i was like 6. who DOESN'T get excited by liquid metal? jesus...

Magpie - 10-3-2012 at 16:46

Quote: Originally posted by White Yeti  

Maybe the wealth of the previous generation is simply spoiling this one. They've got every comfort they could ever want, and they want more, but they want it handed to them on a silver platter. They cannot work even if their lives depended on it, which sooner or later will be the case.


Perhaps these people should be required to spend a month in the slums of Calcutta, or The Gulag Archipelago, every summer.

White Yeti - 10-3-2012 at 17:22

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  

Perhaps these people should be required to spend a month in the slums of Calcutta, or The Gulag Archipelago, every summer.


It wouldn't be a bad idea. Some people have lost touch with reality and then they are surprised when bad things happen in the world. They are devastated when celebrity_______(fill in the blank) gets a divorce, but an earthquake in an underdeveloped country doesn't strike a chord at all. People are not only becoming increasingly arrogant, but indifferent to everything that doesn't affect them directly. Our shallow mass media has a part to play. The media has filled our desire for flashes of information with no deeper meaning or any lasting significance.

I wonder if our attraction for instant and brief information has any evolutionary ties.

Interesting off topic side note:
I recently found out why most of us hate silence. Our disdain for complete silence traces back to our cavemen ancestors, who saw complete silence as an ominous sign of danger. Some even think this is why we have an "inner voice", when everything really was completely silent, your inner voice would fill the void and help you stay sane.

This may also explain why some people leave the TV on constantly, regardless of what program is on:D

[edit]
Found it! Wikipedia entry on how your inner voice keeps you sane in times of silence:
Evolved to avoid silence
Joseph Jordania suggested that talking to yourself can be used to avoid silence. According to him, our ancestors, like many other social animals, used contact calls to maintain constant contact with the members of the group,[5] and a signal of danger was communicated through becoming silent and freezing.[6] Because of our evolutionary history, prolonged silence is perceived as a sign of danger and triggers a feeling of uneasiness and fear. According to Jordania, talking to yourself is only one of the ways to fill in prolonged gaps of silence in humans. Other ways of filling in prolonged silence are humming, whistling, finger drumming, or having TV, radio or music on all the time.

[Edited on 3-11-2012 by White Yeti]

Endimion17 - 10-3-2012 at 18:42

Quote: Originally posted by Morgan  
Presentation is everything.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/09/girl-drinks-gasolin...

[Edited on 10-3-2012 by Morgan]


Holy fuck, that's like one of the weirdest things I saw in the last year.
And I don't mean the gasoline girl, but the girl with the creepy doll head. "Smells like marshmallows, mmmmm oh, yeah" :D:D:D

The gasoline girl could be fake. If it isn't fake, she'll end up with cancer soon. Gasoline has relatively lots of benzene inside.
I've seen weird shit like this, so a dumbass drinking gasoline doesn't surprise me much.

But the creepy doll head girl... Damn. I hope that doesn't give me nightmares. :D

tastyphenome - 10-3-2012 at 18:42

I think now you guys are just glorifying the past..... Selective remembrance is a hell of a thing... People have always been stupid, apathetic, and shallow. similar to how people at renaissance festivals glorify one of the more putrid era's of our past.

"Maybe the wealth of the previous generation is simply spoiling this one."
i agree with this^

" They've got every comfort they could ever want, and they want more, but they want it handed to them on a silver platter. They cannot work even if their lives depended on it, which sooner or later will be the case."

But i am young and this does not apply to me. nor a good deal of the 'dumb' ppl i know. however i do agree with magpie's reply.

all generations are guilty. technology has just sped it up.


EDIT: gasoline girl(lmfao) is prolly the MOST believable thing ive seen on that show out of the 4-6 segments ive seen.

[Edited on 11-3-2012 by tastyphenome]

Morgan - 10-3-2012 at 20:08

Just a few other contrived shows ... (yawn)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UpSlpvb1is

"Did you catch that? The house hunters aren’t actually house hunting in some of the episodes because they already bought one. The producers show them two other houses and they pretend to consider them. Then they pretend to deliberate, and pretend to choose the house that they already chose from the beginning."
http://hookedonhouses.net/2010/06/02/the-truth-about-house-h...

http://warmingglow.uproxx.com/2010/12/surprise-cash-cab-is-f...

http://www.infobarrel.com/Reasons_Why_Pawn_Stars_Is_Fake_And...


neptunium - 11-3-2012 at 17:44

its always staged !!!! it always is!! are you just now realizing it? where have you been?
not much on TV is genuine anymore..and i refuse to pay for nonsenses and stupidity

[Edited on 12-3-2012 by neptunium]

Pulverulescent - 12-3-2012 at 15:44

Mencken was sooo right!

Pulverulescent - 12-3-2012 at 15:48

I mean, why toss gems their way when you know the swine can't differentiate between them and stinking turds?

AndersHoveland - 12-3-2012 at 16:20

Quote: Originally posted by White Yeti  
Parenting indeed affects child development as much, if not more than schooling, for better or worse. Neighbourhood and wealth also affect people's tendencies. I can't help but to think about all the people who fall into addiction and other bad habits. I didn't realise until recently that I go to school with relatively privileged people, whose parents are pretty well off.


While there certainly is a correlation between the circumstances of ones childhood and the outcome of their future life, this correlation is not necessarily a direct cause and effect relationship. I tend to think the this correlation may have more to do with genetics. Parents with a predisposition to be more responsible and have a higher level of intelligence (and ability to concentrate in school) are more likely to live in the higher income neighborhoods. And so the children who live in higher income neighborhoods are more likely to do better in school and not develop detrimental habits.


Quote: Originally posted by neptunium  
its always staged !!!! it always is!! are you just now realizing it? not much on TV is genuine anymore..and i refuse to pay for nonsenses and stupidity


This is why I got rid of my televission. It seems nearly every story shown on the news was craftily chosen to subtly alter the social and political opinions of the viewers.

And the fictional dramas are just packed full of attempts to alter perceptions. This is completely inconspicuous until one understands exactly what they are trying to do. What one sees on televission, even in the news, is not a realistic depiction of reality. There are all sorts of poverty and crime related problems that are purposefully not depicted, or avoided, on televission. And some of the most important issues, immigration and government spending, recieve very little serious attention. Most people would likely not believe to what extent the middle class is taxed to subsidise large business interests. Here is just one example:
Quote:

The federal government continued its effort to boost agricultural commodity prices today by announcing it will purchase an additional $25 million worth of pork. The U.S. Department of Agriculture also said it will buy $60 million of turkey, and $2 million of lamb. Last week, the USDA bought approximately 200 million pounds of nonfat dry milk to help the dairy industry.

Pork farmers have been losing an average of $20 on each hog marketed since October 2007, according to the U.S. Pork Producers. And economists have said dairy producers are losing an average of $3 per cow per day.

The U.S government indirectly subsidizes the meat industry. The cost of a common hamburger would be $35 and the cost of one pound of beefsteak would be $89 if water was not subsidized by taxpayers.

federal and state governments subsidize the meat industry's water consumption at every stage of the process. Confined Animal Feeding Operations (CAFOs) consume particularly egregious quantities of water.

Cornell economists, David Fields and his associate Robin Hur, have studied the fiscal consequences of water subsidies to the meat industry: “Reports by the General Accounting Office, the Rand Corporation, and the Water Resources Council have made it clear that irrigation water subsidies to livestock producers are economically counter productive. Every dollar that state governments dole out to livestock producers, in the form of irrigation subsidies, actually costs tax payers over seven dollars in lost wages, higher living costs, and reduced business income."

Economists Fields and Hur calculate the overall price of subsidizing the California meat industry’s water to be 24 billion dollars.

http://www.lawschoolblog.org/blog/2011/oct/11/subsidizing-ob...

[Edited on 13-3-2012 by AndersHoveland]

Bot0nist - 12-3-2012 at 16:24

Do you think maybe you are predisposed to blaming genetic over environmental influence do to your, um, beliefs Anders? What about children that are orphaned and put in an abusive, or otherwise hostile environment? Despite there genetic predispositions, I feel that their environment is a HUGE factor. Look at all the cases of people being abused as children (not by parents, to avoid genetic issues) who grow up to perpetrate upon others the very abuses that they had to endure?

neptunium - 12-3-2012 at 16:26

the old nature vs nurture conendrum..its a little bit of both i think.

Bot0nist - 12-3-2012 at 16:29

As do I. I would never dispute genetic inheritance, but we also can not refute learned behavior and environmental impact.

White Yeti - 12-3-2012 at 16:37

Quote: Originally posted by AndersHoveland  
While there certainly is a correlation between the circumstances of ones childhood and the outcome of their future life, this correlation is not necessarily a direct cause and effect relationship. I tend to think the this correlation may have more to do with genetics. Parents with a predisposition to be more responsible and have a higher level of intelligence (and ability to concentrate in school) are more likely to live in the higher income neighborhoods. And so the children who live in higher income neighborhoods are more likely to do better in school and not develop detrimental habits.


Anders, most of the time I hold you up to high standards, but bluntly stating that genetics influence intelligence is a huge misunderstanding.

Having experienced this indirectly, I know that intelligence and self fulfilment stems from two things, a stable childhood sheltered from the ills of society, (but NOT from failure) and secondly, inner motivation and drive for success.

All too often I see people with very high IQ wasting their potential, not because they were abused as children, but because they do not have innate motivation.

Nature vs. nurture debate....
I have no intention to start a whole discussion (although I might have just now) on whether genetics play a major role on the intelligence of children.

What I know for sure is that we know too little to truly state where intelligence comes from and even what it really is. However, I think intelligence leans more on the nurture side of things because many mental illnesses stem from abnormal conditions surrounding children at a young age. We are trying to find a genetic basis for everything, even autism.

If you look at intelligence, one might say it's an emergent property of the human brain, to which there is very little genetic basis. Neural pruning, which occurs during childhood is influenced by EVERYTHING including the media and of course TV....

AndersHoveland - 12-3-2012 at 17:13

I believe it is a complex interaction between genetics and environmental conditioning.
A parallel to this is trying to understand the causes of homosexuality.
Quote:

In a 1991 study of gay twins, Bailey and Pillard found that when one identical twin had a same-gender attraction, the other twin had a 52% probability of also having same-gender attraction.

As identical twins essentially have an identical genetic composition, it can be seen that the causes of homosexuality are about half genetics and half environmental influence. It may likely be that, as with many other diseases, certain individuals are genetically predisposed to vulnerability towards certain negetive environmental conditions.

Perhaps Roscoe Bodine will have a few comments to say on this topic...

[Edited on 13-3-2012 by AndersHoveland]

Polverone - 12-3-2012 at 17:51

Quote:

The U.S government indirectly subsidizes the meat industry. The cost of a common hamburger would be $35 and the cost of one pound of beefsteak would be $89 if water was not subsidized by taxpayers.


The authors of the $35 per hamburger estimate are either innumerate or disingenuous.

Americans consume about 40 billion hamburgers and 3.9 billion pounds of beef steak per year. At $32 per hamburger and $80 per pound of steak in subsidy that's 1.5 trillion dollars a year. By this reckoning beef subsidies must be the single largest expenditure in the US federal budget, more than the Department of Defense and Social Security combined.

Now the government does fund public works projects to provide water and arbitrates in disputes over water rights. Suppose there were no government to enforce law or solve collective action problems. In a lawless land where every water dispute is settled with violence, maybe a hamburger does cost $35, mostly from amortizing the mercenaries' bill over the surviving head of cattle. But this is a vacuous and disingenuous reason to call beef subsidized: every product would be ridiculously expensive in the absence of stable government. Imagine trying to operate a business in Somalia.

watson.fawkes - 12-3-2012 at 18:09

Quote: Originally posted by Polverone  
The authors of the $35 per hamburger estimate are either innumerate or disingenuous.
You forgot "... or stupid". There's always stupidity. Even amongst the numerate.

AndersHoveland - 12-3-2012 at 18:15

Quote: Originally posted by Polverone  

The authors of the $35 per hamburger estimate are either innumerate or disingenuous.


Perhaps they were factoring in the cost to taxpayers of having the slaughterhouse and fastfood workers in the country?
Remember- these are jobs Americans are "not willing" to do.

Quote: Originally posted by Polverone  

Americans consume about 40 billion hamburgers and 3.9 billion pounds of beef steak per year. At $32 per hamburger and $80 per pound of steak in subsidy that's 1.5 trillion dollars a year. By this reckoning beef subsidies must be the single largest expenditure in the US federal budget, more than the Department of Defense and Social Security combined.

I agree with your analysis, but not your conclusion. Americans eat a LARGE quantity of beef! Is it really beyond possibility that the meat industry could be this costly? Most of the agricultural land in the USA is, either directly or indirectly, used for meat production. 50% of the land in the country is being used as pasture or cropland (mostly to feed the animals). Perhaps this is much more important issue than many people realise.

[Edited on 13-3-2012 by AndersHoveland]

Polverone - 12-3-2012 at 18:48

Quote: Originally posted by AndersHoveland  
Quote: Originally posted by Polverone  

The authors of the $35 per hamburger estimate are either innumerate or disingenuous.


Perhaps they were factoring in the cost to taxpayers of having the slaughterhouse and fastfood workers in the country?
Remember- these are jobs Americans are "not willing" to do.

Quote: Originally posted by Polverone  

Americans consume about 40 billion hamburgers and 3.9 billion pounds of beef steak per year. At $32 per hamburger and $80 per pound of steak in subsidy that's 1.5 trillion dollars a year. By this reckoning beef subsidies must be the single largest expenditure in the US federal budget, more than the Department of Defense and Social Security combined.

I agree with your analysis, but not your conclusion. Americans eat a LARGE quantity of beef! Is it really beyond possibility that the meat industry could be this costly? Most of the agricultural land in the USA is, either directly or indirectly, used for meat production. 50% of the land in the country is being used as pasture or cropland (mostly to feed the animals). Perhaps this is much more important issue than many people realise.


Yes, it is facially absurd. The authors think a hamburger consumes more than $30 in water subsidies alone. Ask these geniuses to incorporate labor and land into their estimates and no doubt Americans spend 150% of GDP on hamburgers. Actually, "estimates" might be putting it too strongly. I've found a few pages that mention the $35 hamburger but not a single one that provides a derivation.

AndersHoveland - 12-3-2012 at 20:50

The meat industry has a very large impact on the environment and economy of the USA, but most American citizens live in cities near the coasts and never see the extent of this industry.
Perhaps those economists included a calculation of the cost of water pollution from the animal excrement.

An estimated 30 percent of the earth’s ice-free land is directly or indirectly involved in livestock production, according to the United Nation’s Food and Agriculture Organization, which also estimates that livestock production generates nearly a fifth of the world’s greenhouse gases — more than transportation.

A study by the National Institute of Livestock and Grassland Science in Japan estimated that 2.2 pounds of beef is responsible for the equivalent amount of carbon dioxide emitted by the average European car every 155 miles, and burns enough energy to light a 100-watt bulb for nearly 20 days.

http://www.nrdp.net/uufsa/EE3high%20price%20cheap%20food.pdf
http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?collection=journals&am...

I believe that the REAL workings of the economy are the less vissible activities, that people (and economists) generally do not think about. The domestic activities of the wife, for example, contribute far more to the wider economy than all the computer companies. The meat industry is just as problematic to the economy as America's social security problems.

Just realised that this thread topic got derailed, sorry, will not post anything else about meat industry.

But back to the topic, why do American schools not teach their students about the horrific origins of their meat? Indeed, the schools actually serve their students this meat.

[Edited on 13-3-2012 by AndersHoveland]

497 - 13-3-2012 at 01:01

Imagine how much land would be used if you just fed the damn things duckweed? Like a tenth of what it is now...

Edit
Hah, I was referring to the cattle... Disregard for animals? Mostly cattle annoy me because they're so stupid, inefficient, and in my opinion not the best meat.. Don't worry about their feelings, I don't think many are reading the forum.
But feeding people duckweed would be even better in some ways. Not holding out too much hope for that though. Far too practical.

[Edited on 13-3-2012 by 497]

dann2 - 13-3-2012 at 06:31

Quote: Originally posted by 497  
Imagine how much land would be used if you just fed the damn things duckweed? Like a tenth of what it is now...


The children or the cattle?

neptunium - 13-3-2012 at 06:41

i was lucky enough to have parents who exposed me to all kinds of activity both in and outdoor, in an effort to widen my mind and open up .
So it came as a shock to me when my roomate asked me how hot dogs were grown on tree and if so what kind of tree..
We can laught all we want ,i think it underline a much more serious problem in society ,parenting and again TV programing.

I understand most people are not interested in the manufacture of processed food or growning corn in Kansas ,but curiosity should be (i asssume) in all of us, and if not exposed to differente aspect of life ,at least go out and research and find your answer.

Today it is so easy to update ones status on facebook (and he does all the time) how didnt he take the time to look up "hot dogs/wiki " ? and save himself the embarasement(spelling?)

he is just one example there is many of them like him and these people vote ! :o
thats not funny thats scary to me

GreenD - 13-3-2012 at 06:47

I don't know if a 30$ hamburger is realistic, however I do know that the US subsidizes corn incredibly low - so the price Monsanto pays for it is a fraction of the production cost. This does not, however, require monsanto to sell it at a fraction of the production cost (or any other agri-company). In fact - it is a very fucked up system. Monsanto sells its seeds to farmers at their own price. Ther farmer grows the corn. Monsanto buys the corn and receives a huge subsidy fromt he gov't. A bit f'ed up if you ask me.

So the feed for the cattle is majorly subsidized. I do not know, but I can assume that there are some subsidies with meat and cattle. Last year I guess the subsidies were $200 million - not quite in the trillions, but not something to be ignored.

Knowing that corn that feeds the cattle is subsidized, and the cattle themselves are subsidized, the actual true labor and energy cost of your meat is much, much greater than what you are actually paying for it. This unrealistically lowers the price of meat considerably and is why meat is less expensive than organic produce. (Makes zero sense from a physics standpoint).

I looked up the actual water use of a pound of meat, it is close to 900 gallons of water per pound. That takes into account (I believe) the rain water for the feed as well. Perhaps not. At any rate, it is a large amount, and often farms do not get to rely on simple rain water for irregation.

Yes this is now completely derailed into the agribusiness conspiracy but it is a huge part of our country. All of our food exports and why exactly we can export depend on our gov't subsidies of food. The tax payer pays for all that food goin places, but in fact, it is supplied not by the government, but private industry, specifically monsanto usually. Monsanto openly admitted to choosing who to send corn and other supplementary diets aide to - they also said they would basically boycott european countries that did not support GMO's.

Monsanto has its hands in far more than the price of your hamburger.

Edit: this is so ironic

Quote:
how didnt he take the time to look up "hot dogs/wiki " ? and save himself the embarasement(spelling?)



[Edited on 13-3-2012 by GreenD]

[Edited on 13-3-2012 by GreenD]

neptunium - 13-3-2012 at 10:42

how did we drift from education and dumb TV to 30$ burger? did i miss something?
sometimes i wonder if we are not all (on here) a bunch of reject who refuse to fit the average mold of society...
am I the only one without a facebook page? who thinks a phone should be for calls and maybe text only?
am i a weirdo because i spend my hard earned cash on vacuum pumps and zinc chloride?
science and skeptisiscm, curiosity and open mind are just not part of education and the average joe's life anymore.
it is regretable and i dont know how to turn things arround.

I`ll tell you this now. if an asteroid is heading for earth, everybody I know will find a sudden interest in astronomy !

[Edited on 13-3-2012 by neptunium]

[Edited on 13-3-2012 by neptunium]

Spart - 14-3-2012 at 19:15

As said before, it certainly is true that shows that used to be centered around science are now bullshit reality shows about pawn shops and taxedermy and what not. Most evidently are History and Discovery channels. Currently, History 2 Channel (H2) basically shows anything intellectual that History (original) used to show, although there are a bunch of stupid shows sometimes shown on that channel. I find that Science channel, though, is still pretty good and true to it's name.

As someone said earlier, Through the Wormhole with Morgan Freeman is a pretty good show. I don't watch TV a ton, but when I do, I notice that Science Channel has not submitted to the trendy reality-like shows. However, for a majority of the day, How It's Made is playing, and while it is a good show and is educational, I believe they could throw in some more The Universe re-runs and others in that giant blob of HIM, rather than just playing HIM for nearly the entire day.

GreenD - 15-3-2012 at 05:31

Does anyone have "Curiosity" channel? It seems like it would be very nice to watch.

Even though some of the science channels DO TRY sometimes - the shit they show is so vague and uninteresting or its purely basic stuff, like mass * energy = force. They just don't know HOW to appeal science. Although putting morgan freedman in anything is a good start.

Lambda-Eyde - 15-3-2012 at 05:39

Quote: Originally posted by GreenD  

Even though some of the science channels DO TRY sometimes - the shit they show is so vague and uninteresting or its purely basic stuff, like mass * energy = force. They just don't know HOW to appeal science.


:D

Morgan - 17-3-2012 at 19:03

On the topic of dumb television shows and incongruent reasoning ...

It's just quirky how even higher education/high IQ doesn't preclude unsuspected tastes. I'm not sure I see Charlie's Angels as romatic literature. ha
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzGFytGBDN8#t=6m1s


[Edited on 18-3-2012 by Morgan]

Morgan - 17-3-2012 at 19:52

Murray Gell-Mann talks about Richard Feynman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnMsgxIIQEE#t=1m25s


[Edited on 18-3-2012 by Morgan]