Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Facing eviction because of experiment 20 months ago.

qhyperbola - 7-8-2012 at 06:58

It's not easy for the home mad scientist in this chemophobic suburb of DC. Lemme tell you the story -
Back in feb 2011 I had been working on an invention - an incinerating safe (anti-forensic stashbox) an electric bolt would unlock the door if correct combo was entered - but wrong combo (or tamper attempt) ignites a contained thermitic charge that safely and quickly destroys the contents of box (so any contraband would be put beyond forensic recognition. [got the idea one night while police were searching my car during traffic stop-they didnt find anything btw]. Anyway I decided to base my design on the erico cadweld exolon system (marketed as a "smokeless" low emmission alternative to regular exothermic welding). Since erico charges over $1000 for exolon rxn vessels and I have a scant funds I tried to mimic their design (Pat.# US4889324 and US4881677 if ya wannna see what I mean) With dremel, handsaw, and powerdrill, a stack of 1" graphite plates was shaped into a baffle assembly bolted and wired onto a regular cadweld rxn vessel.
I tested out my creation outside the door to my basement apt (which is where I'd been doing all the work (and graphite is MESSY to work w/)) - I just wanted to see whether or not the fire and sputter of the rxn would be adequately contained or not. I electrically ignited a couple ounces of thermite mixture and the containment vessel did work largely as intended. A sizzle and a bit of smoke was all that there was - when th rxn had stopped sizzling and no more smoke was being evolved, there was a moment of quiet followed by a loud BOOM. It didNot explode - just made the noise (I later determined that this was due to the "Backdraft" effect - oxygen rich air being sucked into the still hot rxn chamber and combusting with unreacted material). The noise was completely unexpected by me and it startled someone else in my building who called police - which I can understand. Police and fire marshall showed up and I had some explaining to do - I fibbed as to the nature of my project and said I was working on casting rings for my wife and I (this has remained my official story - I even went ahead and did cast a pair of rings via copper alloy thermite a few weeks later)
The cops were rather nice and advised that in Montgomery County just assume whatever it is I want to do is illegal - nonetheless the next day my wife and I were given a vacate notice that mentioned "explosions, property damage (the graphite dust on the ground was mistaken as charring caused by fire)" I typed a too long letter of explanation while still trying to figure out why the "BOOM" had occurred - the appeal was rejected. This incident coincided with our annual lease renewal and they took us to court to evict for tenant holdover. We won the case since the leease ext. had been signed the day before the BOOM. A year passed w/o any trouble and they chose to not renew our lease and took us to court again, they won, but I successfully appealed on a technicality - I live in a commonownership community - the owners association BOD and property manager want to send a message to the renters and insist on making an example of me and my wife (as though home chemistry is a renter-only phenomenon) this has made life miserable - it sucks being a tenant. Oh how I envy those of you who have their own property and can do as they please more or less.
Just needed to get it off my chest.

neptunium - 7-8-2012 at 07:47

all of us feel your pain man! its hard to convinced people that we are home experiment hobbyist and enthousiast.
and not bomb makers or meth cook!
however it becomes even harder to explain a loud detonation when the authority arrives!
even with the best intentions !

history is filled with home scientist who made great thrives (the discovery of X rays, isolation of potassium etc....) but those days are long gone and todays reality allows big corporations with big labs to make those discovery and not us...shamefull

triplepoint - 7-8-2012 at 10:19

You say you envy property owners, but even we have neighbors, police, inspectors, etc., etc. Except for people with large spreads in isolated areas, its tough all over.

Wizzard - 7-8-2012 at 10:40

You'll have to point in your lease where it says loud noises, without prior warnings, are cause for eviction. Also, ask for evidence of property damage- If it washed away, it's no harm no foul.

Pyrotechnics may be illegal, but metallurgy isn't. If you were in Massachusetts, you'd have many laws behind you, even as a 'tenant-at-will'... But I don't know where you are.

hissingnoise - 7-8-2012 at 11:48

A safe that incinerates its contents when an incorrect combination is used by accident, say, won't quite have bankers beating a path to your door . . .
Revisiting the blackboard is called for I think!
[Edit]
(That should, of course, be drawing board.)


[Edited on 7-8-2012 by hissingnoise]

S.C. Wack - 7-8-2012 at 13:37

Quote: Originally posted by qhyperbola  
Oh how I envy those of you who have their own property and can do as they please more or less.


The language in mortgages definitely mentions hazards to the lender er house, it lets the bank take back your house and equity in it if they want it unless you can pay them in full right now, so actually it's worse. If the bank finds out you've been doing chemistry at your house, they own you, and if you signed on for 30 years, for a long time.

neptunium - 7-8-2012 at 19:39

................by the balls may i add...............

qhyperbola - 8-8-2012 at 12:43

Thanks for the replies -
Wizzard - I live in Rockville, MD near Washington DC -= the laws on landlord-tenant are landlord friendly. The police didn't think what I was up to was a crime beyond an inadvertant disturbance of the peace though there is a no open flames rule which I might've been breaking - the cops were unusually understanding (I'm used to them being more aggressive w/ me - I've been a guest of the state before) it helped that the fire marshall recognized the cadwelding items for what they were - they just said that sort of thing needs 2b done some place where it wont prompt 911 calls. It was technically a lease violation but for a tenant 2b evicted for breach of lease - the breach needs to be ongoing. The problem is my lease term has since expired so they can evict w/o having to prove anything against me - they're giving me until 8/31 - but I still have another technicality defense up my sleeve - soonest they can evict wont be till december. If only the "no harm no foul" logic worked with the landlords here - my neighbors don't even seem to agree w/ eviction - especially since the incident was over a year and a half ago. Alas.
Triplepoint and SC wack - I see your point - seems like nobody ever really owns anything anymore - still I'm envious of people who have there own garages and work spaces. remember Back to the Future II? ya imagine the world in 30 years and its flying cars and hover boards - its funny that signing contracts that extend 30 years into the future is apparently the norm.
Neptunium - they don't even think I'm a bomb-maker or meth cook (they seem to think I'm a potentially dangerous tinkerer or something like that) at this point though I'm basically an impudent tenant who defied them.
Re your history of home chemist acheivements - they say today Ben Franklin would've been fined for flying a kite w/o license - I was unaware that potassium was isolated by a home chemist (wasn't it Humphrey Davy who did that? was he a home chemist?). My wife says that hennig Brandt would've never discovered phosphorus if he'd been married to her - urine distillation crosses the line of what she tolerates. But chemophobia is over the top nowadays (8 years ago DC spent millions of dollars decontaminating a high school which they had shut down because of metal mercury being spilled in a hallway). I could increase the costs of evicting me by tricking the [repo crew and sherrif carrying out the eviction] into a hazmat response (ie leave a glass thermometer on the edge of a shelf so they break it - or do the same with a clearly labeled jar of potassium ferrocyanide which sounds more dangerous than it is - but I'm going to try to appeal to the community (itsa cooperative) one last time so hopefully no eviction will occurr.
Hissingnoise - yeah as a business proposal, this invention leaves much to be desired - the main market would be to people involved with drugs, plus there's a serious liability issue if somebody gets hurt (especially if its a cop) and if some materials (such as liquids) were stored in it that would be bad (unless this safe really really strong), and it's unclear what other restrictions there might be on the sale and shipping of such a product (though cadwelding material for exolon is classified by usps as non-hazardous (because it does not include the usual ignition powder but instead it comes with palladium coated aluminum core ignition wire (pyrofuze) which is also bafflingly not classified as pyrotechnic) but similar products like electric matches do have restrictions. And yes, more often than not it will incinerate its contents because somebody entered wrong combo by accident. I haven't worked on it since january, but I've had problems genrally with getting this thing to work (though the backdraft problem has been fixed using graphitic felt and ceramic blanket) I might post in the energetic materials forum to get feedback - I've video recorded many experiments (all done off premises) - back to the drawing board it is.
thanks again all

Vogelzang - 8-8-2012 at 14:59

Move to PG county. It costs less. Own your own home there.

Pyro - 8-8-2012 at 15:19

get a boat, they go cheap.
people are really petty, Ive had people calling the cops on us because we used to run the generator for power, it was just a dull humm.
what has society turned into??

bbartlog - 8-8-2012 at 18:21

I always thought that (except in cases of violence) it's incredibly rude to call the police without first going to talk to whoever it is you think you're having a problem with. Glad I have sixty acres and neighbors with similar size spreads (and my mother-in-law holds our mortgage)... pretty sure I could arrange to do an experiment and be certain that no other person was within a quarter mile.

neptunium - 8-8-2012 at 20:14


i am seriously considering buying a piece of land in nevada...have been for years!

Eliteforum - 9-8-2012 at 13:57

OP, use a few paragraphs. It's hard to read what you're gibbering on about otherwise.

qhyperbola - 9-8-2012 at 21:22

Quote: Originally posted by Eliteforum  
OP, use a few paragraphs. It's hard to read what you're gibbering on about otherwise.

Now that I look at it, I am an awfully long-winded bastard. Thanks for the link to the criminally inclined forum. cheers

Pathos - 16-8-2012 at 15:15

Sounds like you were lucky enough to get both of the genuinely decent cops in all of Mont.Co. in that scenario. I used to live in Silver Spring, and have many dozen stories of police injustice. They arrested me for "loitering" once for smoking a cigarette w/ a friend outside of the restaurant we were still eating at (because I questioned the validity of their right to question/ID/harass us in the first place for no reason whatsoever).

PG > MoCo as far as crooked cops are concerned....but thats about it.

Anyways, sorry to hear of ur troubles. We are negotiating our lease re-signing right now too and the bastards are being.. "difficult"...

chemrox - 16-8-2012 at 17:18

Two things-

1) you've run afoul of the nanny society; born and bred in SF & NY but codified in DC

2) nothing good ever came of anything in DC; get the hell out of there!

Ego_and_his_own - 27-9-2012 at 21:59

I have lived year and half in DC! I RUN out of it!

What a bad energy flow.....

And I went in court 5 times!




[Edited on 28-9-2012 by Ego_and_his_own]

IrC - 30-9-2012 at 00:39

I have to think the days of amateur chemistry are nearly over when they raid you for raising fish.

Police raid suspected meth house, only find fish tank

http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=509182

I think I'll go ahead and copy and paste the story since news report links seem to vanish often. A few years old, Apr 29, 2008. What is interesting is the lady told the contractor what the chemicals were being used for, a fish tank. The man still went to police telling them he smelled vinegar. So the police were informed of exactly what chemicals were involved yet still chose to get a meth lab warrant. Even more troubling is the company putting forth the image the house is unsafe for chemicals some of which one could find in any kitchen. Comments I added are in red.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brooklyn Park police were looking for a meth lab, but they found a fish tank and the chemicals needed to maintain it. And a few hours later, when the city sent a contractor to fix the door the police had smashed open Monday afternoon, it was obvious the city was trying to fix a mistake. It happened while Kathy Adams was sleeping. "And the next thing I know, a police officer is trying to get me out bed," she said.

Adams, a 54-year-old former nurse who said she suffers from a bad back caused by a patient who attacked her a few years ago, was handcuffed. So was her 49-year-old husband. "They brought us here and said once we clear that area, you can sit down and you will not speak to each other," she said.

Police were executing a search warrant signed by Hennepin County Judge Ivy Bernhardson, who believed there was probable cause the Adams's home was a meth lab. Berhardson, who was appointed to the bench less than a year ago, did not return KARE 11's phone calls. "Ohmigod," Adams said as she recalled police breaking down her door and flashing the search warrant. "I just kept saying to them, 'you've got the wrong house.' " Police soon realized that themselves.

"From a cursory view, it doesn't look like our officers did anything wrong," said Capt. Greg Roehl.

Another troubling attitude

Roehl said the drug task force was acting on a tip from a subcontractor for CenterPoint Energy, who had been in the home Friday to install a hot water heater. "He got hit with a chemical smell that he said made him light headed, feel kind of nauseous," Roehl said. The smell was vinegar, and maybe pickling lime, which were clearly marked in a bathroom Mr. Adams uses to mix chemicals for his salt water fish tank.

"I said, 'I call it his laboratory for his fish tanks,' " Mrs. Adams said, recalling her conversation with the CenterPoint technician. "I'm looking at the fish tank talking to this guy."

So she clearly shows the man the purpose of the chemicals

Police say there was no extended investigation, just an interview with the subcontractor. "Everything this person told us turned out to be true, with the exception of what the purpose of the lab was," Roehl said.

The contractor obviously made up the drug lab story, and police decide to raid with no effort to investigate first. Considering the stories of innocent citizens being killed in similar raids where they are taken by surprise not knowing if this is a home invasion by criminals one would think they should at least investigate before risking the lives of law abiding citizens. They are aware of wrongful deaths caused by circumstances like this they should consider this and investigate first.

I have seen many videos, including one where in 5 seconds the surprised home owner holding a golf club was shot dead in Utah. You cannot tell what is going on when without warning your door is bashed in and men in ski masks with guns come running in. Common sense dictates you be armed when awakened with violence otherwise you have no defense against a real criminal home invasion. How can one know this quickly if you are in a self defense situation considering the tactics used by LEO today?

Adams is looking for a lawyer. "I could say that about my neighbor - I smelled something when I went in their house," she said. "Does that make it right for them to go in there and break the door down and cuff you? I think not!" Police say the detective who asked for the search warrant is an 8 ½-year veteran, but he just started working in the drug task force.

CenterPoint energy maintains the home was "unsafe" and it would have been "irresponsible" for the subcontractor not to report it.


[Edited on 9-30-2012 by IrC]

Ego_and_his_own - 30-9-2012 at 08:39

You are only good citizen if you take huge loans from banks, work your ass out paying them off and vote. And you dont dare to know too much.

Ego_and_his_own - 30-9-2012 at 08:45

I recommend anyone who wants to do home chemistry to educate him self about laws.

And to prepare him self and not get caught in ignorance.

As only thing they can have is to try to intimidate you with FUD. And that only can come out of ignorance.

IrC - 1-10-2012 at 23:15

My point in posting that story even though old (which really means things are worse for us by now not better), was that vinegar smell should not justify a warrant. I don't know the chemistry for drug making because I hate all cooks (they destroy my hobby daily) but I was assuming from what little I have seen online about it that vinegar is not involved nor the smell of it. Troubling then they said the officers did no wrong. I call bull on this. If they do this for a living they must know what they are looking for and vinegar, fish, a salt water tank is unrelated. Therefore no way could probable cause for a warrant be even remotely justified.

So the only conclusion one can draw is it matters not what chemicals you have, what you are doing. In the end anyone with chemistry as a hobby or side profession under their rules is going to be raided, have their liberties shredded, be made out to be a criminal, and in general be punished as much as they can get away with.

Even if this means they blow you away in a botched raid where all you knew was masked men were trying to kill you at 2 AM in the confusion saturated violent way they storm into the home of a law abiding citizen. In effect you are in mortal danger for merely exercising your rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Since if happiness to you is science, to them it is a crime no matter what you were doing.

Ego_and_his_own - 2-10-2012 at 05:49

Thats happening all the time, not just in this type of cases.

Problems are that people dont know their rights and dont want to make/have problems, and event if they have right to sue police for this they dont do it.

And that just make more problems as they think that they can do what ever they want without a punishment.

Its sure that Judge who issued a warrant will not say that police did anything wrong (as he is the one who signed it without a proper evidence). The truth is that you cant sue Judge but you can sue police.

But people are scared, ignorant of their rights. And as someone said "Ones who sacrifice their liberty for the sense of security, don't deserve ether".

triplepoint - 2-10-2012 at 19:04

Ego: you were paraphrasing Ben Franklin: In 1755 (Pennsylvania Assembly: Reply to the Governor, Tue, Nov 11, 1755), Franklin wrote: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

As true now as it was then.

Ephesian - 3-10-2012 at 02:21
Quote:

from what little I have seen online about it that vinegar is not involved nor the smell of it.


Ever heard of peracid oxidation of olefins? Glacial acetic acid can be used in this process to produce those lovely ketones I'm sure you've read all about :)

Ego_and_his_own - 3-10-2012 at 08:50

Unless there is evidence that drugs are produced and sold there is no justification for any assumption.

And if you add on top of it that those assumptions can lead to violating someones rights, you get that people lose trust in governing capability of one society.

And know that all human relations are based on trust. If people believe it they will behave according of their beliefs. If they dont then all is worthless. Here lies responsibility of Judges, Police and Law makers. And they solely are responsible to not misuse powers that they have given into trust.

So if some government lose this sense it will collide into dust and injustice, its just a matter of time when it piles up high enough that can all see it.

The problem is that without just government people get corrupted too. And like badly built house it will fall on their careless inhabitants.

I have been a witness of this.

Ego_and_his_own - 3-10-2012 at 09:36

And the biggest problem I saw is that all this dont happen over night, it happens gradually over life time. Danger of it is that people dont notice how bad this can be and when it become so obvious that you cant ignore it anymore its then too late.

And people do tend to ignore what don't affect them directly. Thats why they behave like sheep's when wolf take few of them. They gather in a circle and those inside think that they are safe as long as those outside can feed a wolf for next day.

But their ignorance is that they dont think about fact that wolf is hungry every day....



[Edited on 3-10-2012 by Ego_and_his_own]

violet sin - 3-10-2012 at 14:21

about the home invasion bit over a vinegar smell : I mentioned this to my brother, who had just received training on this prior to graduating from fish and game academy in california. and he pointed out right off the bat, that a vinegar smell is common when dealing with opiates. especially if tar is being cooked to diacetylmorphine a.k.a. heroin. so perhaps it wasn't a meth lab, but it could have been another type of lab.
thing is he doesn't even care for chemistry( its my hobby) and he knew it immediately because of the peace officer portion of their training. so it seems to me that the cops should have known more intimately what to be looking for, but also maybe the confusion is the type of warrant may cover ANY drug lab. and they knew exactly what they were looking for. I would like/prefer to think they wouldn't risk lives unless they knew those chemicals could be used for it.
as for other things voiced here, I am now curious as to what I would find in cali as far as laws for home chemistry ... bet they aren't too fun. but so far i have managed to avoid a personal visit from the fuzz. just a curious home experimenter, but trying to prove that if asked I believe would be more of a pain. time to read up I guess

Ego_and_his_own - 3-10-2012 at 18:56

I think that 25% of kids never graduate HS in California is real measure how much government care.

Are they are prepared that way to be drugs consumers? Or what? And how much is spent on education, billions.

where in the hell that money goes?

Hey Man 25%?! Thats insane.

ChemistryGhost - 4-10-2012 at 14:58

It's all fear and a mild brainwashing to make people comply to what big brother says. They want a fearful ignorant society. They want us to be dumb and be covering our ears ignoring the removal of cognitive liberty and freedom. If there was a way to remove fear and sadness from people's past memories in a harmless way, the government will be the first to hault all funding for this. Wolf is hungry and sooner or later, some must cease to be sheep and become king cobra.

violet sin - 5-10-2012 at 01:10

hey ego, nothing wrong with california, like any other state or school system. you get out of it what you put in. cali's drop out rate are not too high comparatively, not to my liking though. in fact many states had higher dropout rates. this does not make the situation any better mind you but the facts may be a bit misleading...

http://www.cde.ca.gov/nr/ne/yr12/yr12rel65.asp

"Beyond the 76.3 percent graduation rate and the 14.4 percent dropout rate, the remaining 9.3 percent are students who are neither graduates nor dropouts. Some are still enrolled in school (8.6 percent). Others are non-diploma special education students (0.4 percent), and some elected to pass a high school equivalency exam."


it's not just people that can't seem to pay attention, it is a number of things all adding together to make a rather unacceptable number. check out national dropout rates here http://boostup.org/en/facts/statistics#ca


I thought the main thrust of this was about maybe doing well in light of laws and ignorance and maybe discussing pitfalls to avoid. to that end, instead of complaining of the woes, perhaps it is better to think of ways to be smart and not have to lie or bend the truth... so one thing I can think of immediately,(1) keep a log or journal of your doings. you have just created an great proof of your intention and observations. also by (2) labeling your chems clearly, especially if in nonstandard bottles. you reduce the risk of scaring some one or unintentional accident if precautions are listed.(3) if you treat you chemistry with safety first, then if any thing does happen you don't appear to be a hack or potential hazard to others.

I'm sure there are plenty of ways to seem well within your rights, trustworthy, and responsible. any one else have tips for people, maybe some one who has had contact with lawmen?

[Edited on 5-10-2012 by violet sin]

Dave Angel - 6-10-2012 at 04:48

These sorts of reports are exactly why I still maintain as great a deal of privacy about the hobby as I realistically can; I never work in view of neighbours or the public, everything is hidden from visiting workmen, and only a handful of my oldest and most trusted friends and family know of my activities. It's sad, as I have friends who I know would love to be involved, but just can't be trusted to keep their mouths shut about it in wider social settings, with non-mutual friends, to colleagues etc.

The thing is, even trusting a court to throw out any legal proceedings should the police decide to raid one's home (and that's a lot of trust these days), I can only imagine the nightmare it must be to lose one's entire collection of computers and storage, chemicals and apparatus etc. for months on end as evidence and see them returned, perhaps in pieces, ('sorry sir, must have broken in transit') or maybe not at all if they wish to retain them for possible future proceedings. This not to mention being personally dragged through such an alien system (I have had zero encounters with the law - I'd like to keep it that way), having DNA and prints put on record ('innocent? Oh, we'll just keep those records anyway - you've got nothing to hide have you sir?') and the impact it's likely to have on work (mud sticks) and family.

Keep your heads well below the parapets my friends...

IrC - 6-10-2012 at 12:39

Quote: Originally posted by Dave Angel  
Keep your heads well below the parapets my friends...


Thought of your post and your location when I read this article. Little information therein yet the charge stood out in my mind :

http://www.business-standard.com/generalnews/news/brothersis...

"suspicion of possessing documents likely to be of use to someone preparing for an act of terrorism".

I have to wonder, are not the majority of experiments discussed on this entire site likely to be ruled in this category? Anything in the energetic materials section, indeed any chemical discussion over substances which could be harmful, in truth nearly every damned thing discussed?

The charge in quotes is so broad, so vague and generalized. In effect it appears to me you are very wise hiding your experimentation in the UK. Do not feel bad while it may not be on paper, the way LEO and the public, the media, etc., and so on act here in the US I for one cannot say things are any better here than they are for you in the UK.

Or am I just being overly paranoid? Is it really paranoia when they all really are out to get you? I believe laws and charges this general are written this way to give them the ability to go after whoever they want whenever they want at any time they feel like it.



violet sin - 7-10-2012 at 02:15

well one thing I have noticed here in Cali, every freaking store you go into asks you for a rewards/discount card. lowes, home depot, ace hardware, rite-aid, CVS, Safeway, etc. etc. it is apparent that if you use the cards at all, they already know what you have bought. also seems like if ya end up drawing attention they could quite likely get a warrant for you purchases and open up to others like ebay. maybe even with out you ever knowing? what with the anti terrorist laws and initiatives. not sure they have to tell you the cops are getting nosy.

funny how ya have to be crafty like you actually ARE doing something, just to give a reasonable buffer zone from gettn yourself a pair of those matching bracelets.

also funny how you are supposed to trust their judgement to not ruin your life with felonies and jail,.. false or not.... but seems they would altogether prefer that most people were just plain stupid, as opposed to having to trust your judgment.

not going down the road of complaining again, just amusing in a way. I mean there are a LOT of people I wouldn't trust to play with chems either! I guess the another way to tackle it is think about what they would try and nail ya for, then cover your exits. like if it was toxic, or an environmental toxin be sure to have proper waste disposal. if it was energetic, crap, do what ya can to just never get caught. and on the drug side some laws are crazy. seems here just using IPA, acetone, butane (what ever) to get a cannabis concentrate is directly equivalent to manufacturing methamphetamine's. so something I have seen countless teenagers do( cannabis concentrate, not meth cook) as well as broke college kids without ever knowing the charges they could face... seriously.

[Edited on 7-10-2012 by violet sin]

Dave Angel - 7-10-2012 at 14:47

Quote: Originally posted by IrC  
"suspicion of possessing documents likely to be of use to someone preparing for an act of terrorism".

I have to wonder, are not the majority of experiments discussed on this entire site likely to be ruled in this category? Anything in the energetic materials section, indeed any chemical discussion over substances which could be harmful, in truth nearly every damned thing discussed?


Ah yes, the UK's beloved terrorism act. The charge is so broad because the law, as you've pointed out, is written that way.

It's been a little while since I read through the law but I'd agree with you that there are many materials that we work with that could be 'useful to those preparing acts of terrorism' or however it's worded. The London tube/bus bombers used AP... Now what home chemist doesn't have acetone, hydrogen peroxide and various acids in their collection? Nitric and sulphuric acid, and toluene? Check...

Those arrested under the terrorism act can be held without charge for 28 days as opposed to the usual (I believe) 72 hours for other offences. It may be more than 28 days actually; I think there were machinations to extend this some time ago. Let's be clear on this: Held without charge; i.e., they arrest you for having a bunch of chemicals in your garage and you're locked up for a month without further ado. In those 28 days you can probably kiss your job goodbye and it ain't going to help a more serious career.

This article highlights what might be called a 'vigilance campaign' encouraging people to look out for people taking pictures of 'security arrangements' amongst other things. Another poster (which I can't find online) showed a garage full of chemical bottles as something to report. Does that scene sound familiar to anyone...?

Here in the UK someone was arrested as a result of photographing a christmas parade and not giving his details:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2010/feb/21/police-arrest...

You can keep your 'Paranormal Activity' and what not - it's these sorts of videos that truly scare me. It starts with section 44 of the terrorism act - watch it escalate as he spouts the law back at them. The PCSOs (police community support officers, sort of like volunteer police - they have less power) don't stand a chance. In the end, they bring in a proper cop who uses the anti-social behaviour act to get around the get-out from the original act invoked.

First off, the original law he was stopped under is forgotten; first it's just getting details of those taking photos and then suddenly he's commited a crime. When they are out-manoeuvred by someone who knows his rights, they find something else to get him on. If that was his 'crime' then why not approaching him under the anti-social behaviour act in the first place?

Second, for those unfamiliar with British law, the terrorism act was created to stop the likes of the Tube bombers. The anti-social behaviour act was essentially created to deal with the likes of lawless, intimidating teens who bully pensioners at bus stops etc. How, I ask, does a mild mannered photographer fit the spirit of these laws? It's classic abuse of law to suit the need to 'get the guy on something' as you've mentioned IrC.

On the finally decided upon 'crime' itself, I would assume that the so called 'antisocial' use of the camera was a standard photographer behaviour of trying to be subtle (aka. "sneaky") about taking the shot so as to catch people acting naturally. Being quite obvious and pointing a fancy camera with a big lens in someone's face tends to change their behaviour and expressions when shooting street scenes.

Anyway, I could go on and on about this, but I'd probably go round in circles; I've seen plenty more examples of laws being stretched because the police took offence to someone filming etc. The point is that this guy could have been any old bloke with a camera, and people can relate to his situation. He has the public sympathy and they still put him in a cell for 8 hours and release him without charge (naturally), just to give him the proverbial slap on the wrist for daring to stand up for himself. Now, how do you think they'd treat one of us? How well would the public relate to us?

What it comes down to is that I don't believe that the law is out to get home chemists per se - we're in such a minority that we go unnoticed for the most part, but sadly this also means we're never taken into consideration when laws that may adversely affect us are written or (ab)used. Instead, I think that the neither the law makers, nor the police, nor the general public have the awareness, capability or inclination to tell us apart from terrorists and cooks. And the result is just as violet sin says - we end up acting like we have something to hide in (rational) fear of them thinking what we're doing is illegal.

These days, besides keeping my head down, I try to keep zero electronic data that could be misconstrued as Naughty ThingsTM and I keep a lab book of what I do to demonstrate the objective, and therefore the legitamacy, of the experiments (a topic which has been debated in another thread as I recall). Simply put, if we want to continue our hobby in this day and age then, in the same way that we try to take precautions for our personal health & safety (and I won't claim the best track record there), then we have to consider analogous precautions against the other 'reactive species' out there!

[Edited on 7/10/2012 by Dave Angel]

Thanks for all friendly replies - good news

qhyperbola - 14-10-2012 at 22:39

I may just end up winning this thing after all. I have now won in court for a 3rd time since this all started 2 yrs ago with the thermite casting experiment. I had no idea I would be so good at pro se lawyering:D. Most people here have long since forgotten about that incident and I am now only beset with the property manager's vendetta against my wife and I for making him look bad. He just tried a merciless eviction attempt right after I had a spinal surgery and despite his hired attorney who's been practicing since 1977 (year I was born) has now been forced to wait until Jan.2013 to try again. At the April Owners meeting I can force him justify the amount of the Cooperative's money that has been spent losing to me 3 times. He deserves to be put on the hotseat for eschewing wisdom and mercy in favor their opposites: mean and stupid.
My little one bedroom unit $775.75/mo with free water and gas in Rockville is too good to let go of and more people seem to hate this manager guy more than they hate me.