Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Sodium Nitrate - Powered by XMB 1.9.11 (Debug Mode)

Sodium Nitrate

Emmasis - 7-8-2012 at 07:53

Will Sodium Nitrate and Al act the same as Ammonium Nitrate and Al?
Similar to Tannerite?
Thanks everyone!

Ral123 - 7-8-2012 at 10:37

If you think nitrate flash can detonate with 4000m/s... I suspect it won't be that impact sensitive. What's with all that tennerite interest?

hissingnoise - 7-8-2012 at 12:00

NaNO3/fuel mixtures deflagrate rather than detonate ─ but (per)chlorate/fuel mixtures will detonate!

shannon dove - 7-8-2012 at 16:15

I am very glad someone started this thread.
I thought I read somewhere that calcium nitrate (dry) mixed with various fuels could be detonated similar to ammonium nitrate. If a flash powder contained both potassium nitrate and potassium chlorate, what percentage would have to be chlorate for it to detonate. For example, if was 20% nitrate and 80% chlorate (not including the fuel powder) , could that be detonated? Could ammonium nitrate in anfo be replaced with 10% sodium nitrate, what about 30%?
I think this is a question about how oxidizers compare. Does dynamite made with ammonium. Nitrate out perform the ones made with potassium nitrate if all else is the same. I know some of this is covered in other threads, but not all of it. Does black powder burn faster with calcium nitrate (dry) ?

Tannerite(ish)

Emmasis - 7-8-2012 at 16:17

Quote: Originally posted by Ral123

If you think nitrate flash can detonate with 4000m/s... I suspect it won't be that impact sensitive. What's with all that tennerite interest?

I "ran into" 6# bag of Sodium Nitrate and I am wondering if it will act like Tannerite when I shoot it with a 168gr. .308 round?
Any special preparation differences than AN/AL?
To answer your question about Tannerite, I enjoy reactionary targets.
I am not interested in making: C4,RDS or anything in the "High Explosive" or "Primary Explosive" categories.
I am not educated in Chemistry and AN/AL is a "Relatively" safe chemical combination that I am comfortable with using.
I ask and research here because of the Chemistry knowledge that is available here.
I know what i am capable/incapable of so, I look to people that have a working knowledge of what I am questioning.

If you ask me about being an Executive Chef/Food & Beverage Director,
I will be able to address any of your questions.
That is where I excel.

Thanks to all

Emmasis - 7-8-2012 at 16:23

I want to learn Please !

Emmasis - 7-8-2012 at 16:32

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise

NaNO3/fuel mixtures deflagrate rather than detonate ─ but (per)chlorate/fuel mixtures will detonate!

So, it more or less shock sensitive than AN/AL?
Any handling/mixing procedural differences?
Are there incompatable materials I should not use for mixing or for target containment?
Thank you again,
Terrance

Emmasis - 7-8-2012 at 16:35

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise

NaNO3/fuel mixtures deflagrate rather than detonate ─ but (per)chlorate/fuel mixtures will detonate!

I was told by a fellow board member to avoid chlorates because of my "greenness"

shannon dove - 7-8-2012 at 16:59

I do not think sodium nitrate /aluminum will work, but maybe 30% sodium nitrate and 70 ammonium nitrate plus aluminium might work.
All the stuff I have read about explosives, I have never heard of a detonating explosive that only used sodium nitrate as the oxidizer. In other words NaNO3. Is a crappy oxidizer, I do not think it will substitute for ammonium nitrate. But there are flash powder mixes that use it, but again I do not think they detonate like ammonium nitrate. The best way I could answer this to ask you would black powder substitute for tannerite? The answer to that question would be the answer to your original question.

shannon dove - 7-8-2012 at 17:12

Sometimes I am not good with words, let me put it another way.
sodium nitrate mixes will act a whole lot more like black powder than tannerite. Have you ever shot at a pile or container of black powder? Thats what you can expect from sodium nitrate mixes.

Ral123 - 7-8-2012 at 20:02

Yeah, and I have even bigger bag of sodium chloride. Someone please tell me how to make explosive with it, even if it's a little less powerful then semtex

Well sure you can do something with the NaNO3, just need one of those fuels with nitrogen-nitrogen bonds

Ok, let's say you have a chance to do something. You'll need good Al(since when you have so much of it, that only the oxidizer is the problem), mixed very finely and probably a lot of additives like nitromethane/ethylamine. I wouldn't even do a straight dynamite containing NaNO3 because of it's hygroscopicity.

CaliusOptimus - 7-8-2012 at 22:56

It's called ammonal..... not AN/AL. Guess why!

I once saw a thread titled AN/AL Sensitivity. I L'd mao.

hissingnoise - 8-8-2012 at 07:39

AN/AL explosive? A fart? 'Nuff said!

Emmasis - 8-8-2012 at 11:07

In the United States, most blasting powder is made from Sodium nitrate. Some samples taken show the following ratios.

SODIUM NITRATE CHARCOAL SULFUR :::::::::::::: :::::::: ::::::

68 10 22
73 11 16

Mixed in either of these ratios would it be remotely shock sensitive?

Emmasis - 8-8-2012 at 11:08

Quote: Originally posted by Ral123

Yeah, and I have even bigger bag of sodium chloride. Someone please tell me how to make explosive with it, even if it's a little less powerful then semtex

Well sure you can do something with the NaNO3, just need one of those fuels with nitrogen-nitrogen bonds

Well, at least you aren't being a smug As$@*+# about it!
Thanks for all your help!!!

Fossil - 8-8-2012 at 14:59

Quote: Originally posted by Emmasis

In the United States, most blasting powder is made from Sodium nitrate. Some samples taken show the following ratios.

SODIUM NITRATE CHARCOAL SULFUR :::::::::::::: :::::::: ::::::

68 10 22
73 11 16

Mixed in either of these ratios would it be remotely shock sensitive?

Those are just some Chilean saltpeter black powder comps, so expect the same sensitivity as you would from black powder

EDIT: after looking through one of my books, i could not find any numbers on both the friction and shock sensitivity of sodium nitrate and potassium nitrate gunpowder.

[Edited on 2012-8-8 by Fossil]

shannon dove - 8-8-2012 at 18:46

You could just buy some black powder, shoot at it in different situations, confined, unconfined, strong container, weak container etc, and if you like the results then use your sodium nitrate, if you do not like the results, then find another use for for your sodium nitrate.

Emmasis - 9-8-2012 at 06:04

The only references I could find were a small amount was placed in a drilled hole then packed with some inert material and packed tight with clay, fused and ignited.
The other variation of below called for the addition of "petroleum"
I am thinking if I use nitromethane in place of the petroleum.

Any thoughts?

Quote: Originally posted by Fossil

Quote: Originally posted by Emmasis

Emmasis - 9-8-2012 at 07:49

The only references I could find were a small amount was placed in a drilled hole then packed with some inert material and packed tight with clay, fused and ignited.
The other variation of below called for the addition of "petroleum"
I am thinking if I use nitromethane in place of the petroleum.

Any thoughts?

Quote: Originally posted by Fossil

Quote: Originally posted by Emmasis

Bert - 9-8-2012 at 07:56

There are a few actual high explosives made with sodium/calcium nitrates. They are generally water gels or emulsions- Very insensitive explosives designed for rock blasting and requiring exacting processing to function. Not an easy thing for a hobbyist to duplicate.

In the past, small additional percentages of nitroglycerin were added to black powder intended for earth moving shots to increase gas production and heat. My older copies of the DuPont Blaster's Handbook refer to this as "railroad powder".

[Edited on 9-8-2012 by Bert]

Fossil - 9-8-2012 at 08:25

Its up to you what you do with it. Personally I suggest you do some small scale experiments with your sodium nitrate incorporated into various compositions.

On nitromethane

Quote:

Explosive properties Nitromethane was not known to be a high explosive until a railroad tanker car loaded with it exploded on June 1, 1958.[5] After much testing it was realized that nitromethane was a more energetic high explosive than TNT, although TNT has a higher velocity of detonation and brisance. Both of these explosives are oxygen poor and some benefits are gained from mixing with an oxidizer, such as ammonium nitrate. Pure nitromethane is an insensitive explosive with a VoD of approximately 6,400 m/s (21,000 ft/s), but even so inhibitors may be used to reduce the hazards. The tank car explosion was speculated to be due to adiabatic compression, a hazard common to all liquid explosives. This is when small entrained air bubbles compress and superheat with rapid rises in pressure. It was thought that an operator rapidly snapped shut a valve creating a "hammer-lock" pressure surge. Nitromethane can be sensitized by adding a base to raise the pH. Nitromethane can also be mixed with ammonium nitrate, which is used as an oxidizer, to form an explosive mixture known as ANNM. One graphic example of this was the use of nitromethane and ammonium nitrate in the Oklahoma city bombing. It is also miscible with concentrated nitric acid, forming an explosive composition with similar power and sensitivity to nitroglycerin.

You can see it is an explosive in its own right.

Emmasis - 9-8-2012 at 08:55

Thank you for your invaluable input!
What if I were to grind AN and sodium nitrate then mix them?
(And add Al Powder) when ready to use.
1.) Is this feasible?
2.) What ratio of AN & sodium nitrate should I mix?
3.) Would the sodium nitrate act as a de-sensitizer?
4.) Would I still use the same 95:5 Nitrate to Aluminum ratio?

Thank you again,
I know what it is like having an interested person on your forum who
asks questions about things that are well past your education level.

Thank you to the ones who are being patient and very helpful!!!

Swede - 9-8-2012 at 17:43

My guess would be that as the proportion of NaNO3 to AN rises, you'd reduce both sensitivity and the mix would progress towards deflagration rather than detonation. At some point, you'd lose the bang. The NaNO3 is NOT an explosive in the sense that sensitized AN IS an explosive. It is more appropriately labeled an oxidizer, and a whimpy one at that.

What makes Tannerite and other binary reactive targets interesting is that you get the desired bang without confinement.

Mixtures/powders that strictly deflagrate like the "blasting powders" mixtures you mentioned that use sodium nitrate rely on 2 things when used in mining and quarry work to work properly... large amounts of explosive, and Some level of confinement from the surrounding rock substrate.

As mentioned, sodium nitrate/charcoal/sulfur mixtures are variations on black powder, like Goex. If you took the tannerite out of its container and replaced it with Goex, assuming you could ignite it with a bullet, you'd get a "whoompf", a very muffled noise, and a huge, climbing smoke cloud. In other words, very disappointing, probably very boring. The plastic container cannot contain the deflagration so as to accelerate the burn to the point where you'd get "fun" results.

My opinion on your NaNO3 stash - mix it in water and fertilize your veggies.

If you want to experiment with binary targets, it's very hard to argue against AN/Al and similar that use AN as a basis. They are safe, well known, and inexpensive. When you venture into (per)chlorates, the risk skyrockets, with little additional return. Perchlorates are more expensive than AN anyhow.

Fossil - 10-8-2012 at 05:13

Or instead of growing some nice plants, you could place some of your NaNO3 in a flask along with some sulfuric acid to make nitric acid. You can then set up for distillation and yield, depending on your setup, >90% FNA. Once you have some FNA, the energetics you could synthesize and almost endless.

badabooom - 11-8-2012 at 01:57

I had seen where NaNO3 and Diesel fuel had been mixed in the same ratios as ANFO to test its "detonate-ability". The first charge was 94/6 NaNO3/ Diesel, was a 500g charge confined in a solid concrete block about 2x2M. It was fired with 5g PETN and 0.5g DDNP. The report was kinda load and produced extremely large amounts of fumes which proved that there was some reaction going on. Upon close inspection the concrete was found to be blown apart into very large pieces. The same conditions were met with a ANFO charge. The results were alot less fumes and the concrete was pulverized into small pieces and a lot of it was turned into dust.

So I assume that NaNO3 can work, just not very well in comparison to AN as you need at least 2-3 times more NaNO3 + fuel to get a similar effect to ANFO or AMMONAL/Tannerite. You may as well just make Black Powder from it else its a waste. I got 25Kg at a bargain and was disappointed to find that its only useful for 3 things really. 1 Rockets, 2 Black powder, 3 Nitric acid production, with the latter making up for everything.

Hope this info helped someone.

Ral123 - 11-8-2012 at 03:46

NaNO3 need quite more fuel then AN. I'm pretty sure that NaNO3/fuel can detonate if dry, very consistently mixed, with big diameter booster no less powerful then anfo. It's just a matter of confinement and diameter. Btw do you guys have any idea how much ng/egdn do I need to add to KNO3/sugar or NaNO3/sugar to make it explosive like for example UN. Btw UN may be low energy but unlike anfo UN can be detonated with AP only, and at it's maximum density, witch makes it much more brisant.

hissingnoise - 11-8-2012 at 03:53

Alkali nitrate fuel mixtures have bee around for quite a while now and have never been shown to detonate!

Ral123 - 11-8-2012 at 04:06

oh come on, if it's perfect, and the fuel is some good energy density like benzene and the diameter and density is big with enough confinement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyBK-__fvdw
at 0:40 there are rockets

Emmasis - 11-8-2012 at 10:31

Btw.. What is it in diesel fuel that makes it so widely used?
What about say "octane booster" or Carburetor cleaner or Mass air flow sensor cleaner?
I also have some extremely high VOC professional auto paint reducers, Hardeners and solvents that I have no use for anymore

Just out of curiosity
thank you again for all the great feedback!!!

[Edited on 11-8-2012 by Emmasis]

[Edited on 11-8-2012 by Emmasis]

Ral123 - 11-8-2012 at 10:36

The better non nitrated fuel would be hexamine of naphtalene, specially hexamine I've heard. But the concept of anfo is to be cheap, so why waste exotic stuff.

Emmasis - 13-8-2012 at 19:14

I am not trying to beat a dead horse but is this a safe action for my Sodium Nitrate?Sodium into Ammonium Nitrate

Ral123 - 13-8-2012 at 19:53

That process is an absolute stupidity for practical uses. If you have dosens of kilos of bisulfate, then you can distill fine white fuming nitric acid.

AJKOER - 16-8-2012 at 11:33

As I understand the history of NaNO3, it was, at one time, employed in the manufacture of gunpowder and actually used in artillery shells in World War I.

Emmasis - 16-8-2012 at 22:31

Quote: Originally posted by Ral123

That process is an absolute stupidity for practical uses. If you have dosens of kilos of bisulfate, then you can distill fine white fuming nitric acid.

I agree, but what about the conversion into AN?
I have 6# of Sodium Nitrate I have no use for and my buddy owns a large commercial pool service company.
I can get bisulfate at cost.
probably free, they have 55 gal. Drums of chems all over their storage.

Thoughts?

[Edited on 17-8-2012 by Emmasis]

badabooom - 17-8-2012 at 02:24

I would have to agree that distilling Nitric acid from NaNO3 would be the most sensible thing to do if you intend to make HE, if you are going to be a pyro then I would say it would best be spent as an oxidiser for blackpowder and rocket fuel. Although you cannot directly substitute NaNO3 for the KNO3 in the rocket candy fuel as it becomes self extinguishing and extremely hydroscopic.

What I have found works well is a mixture of NaNO3/Sucrose and Mannitol. But then again you are faced with choices, do you want to make HE; then rather use the Mannitol for MHN and the NaNO3 for the HNO3. If you wanna go pyro then you already have your answer.

Emmasis - 17-8-2012 at 05:35

Quote: Originally posted by Ral123

That process is an absolute stupidity for practical uses. If you have dosens of kilos of bisulfate, then you can distill fine white fuming nitric acid.

I agree, but what about the conversion into AN?
I have 6# of Sodium Nitrate I have no use for and my buddy owns a large commercial pool service company.
I can get bisulfate at cost.

Thoughts?

badabooom - 17-8-2012 at 05:42

I suppose in your situation where you already have the chemicals and nothing else in mind that in would be worthwhile converting it into AN, its not the best way but like I said you already have the stuff so...

Emmasis - 18-8-2012 at 17:16

What would you suggest?

Quote: Originally posted by badabooom

I suppose in your situation where you already have the chemicals and nothing else in mind that in would be worthwhile converting it into AN, its not the best way but like I said you already have the stuff so...

Fossil - 18-8-2012 at 17:34

Nitrate salt, sodium bisulfate, ammonia solution.

Equimolar ammounts of nitate and NaHSO4 in solution (solutions combined)
ammonia solution added until whole mix is basic
Fractional crystalization to get NH4NO3

Emmasis - 1-9-2012 at 11:39

What if I expose it (under pressure) to NO2?
-or-
Fumigate it with a Hexane Solvent?

[Edited on 1-9-2012 by Emmasis]

[Edited on 1-9-2012 by Emmasis]

AJKOER - 3-9-2012 at 05:18

Add Oxalic acid (H2C2O4) to a hot NaNO3 solution and filter out the Sodium oxalate (Na2C2O4). Carefully add pure ammonia to the solution (note, use of excess H2C2O4 will create the low solubility (NH4)2C2O4 salt). Concentrate the solution and cool to harvest the NH4NO3. Reactions:

2 NaNO3 + H2C2O4 => Na2C2O4 (s) + 2 HNO3

NH3 + HNO3 = NH4NO3

The advantage over Fossil synthesis is avoiding fractional crystalization to remove the Na2SO4 impurity. As NaHSO4 is around the same in price, the only downside is H2C2O4 has some toxicity issues so avoid inhalation of dust and skin contact (read its MSDS).

[Edited on 3-9-2012 by AJKOER]