Sciencemadness Discussion Board - State by state chem laws

State by state chem laws

atombum - 19-6-2004 at 18:00

Pretty much everyone knows of Texas' ridiculous glassware laws (only criminals practice non-corporate based chemistry). And I've also heard of New York having some strict glassware laws.
I'm trying to get a consensus on which states have generally the strictest and most lax chem laws, and maybe any specific strange chemcial rules. Perhaps this will give any users/viewers of this forum an idea of where their hobby may or may not be tolerated.

redickerus laws

Magpie - 19-6-2004 at 22:17

Just what are Texas' rediculous laws on glassware?

I don't live in NY but have been buying some rather sophisticated glassware from a supply house in NY.

This is an interesting question and I hope you get some response. But the very issue you bring up breeds paranoia. This keeps people from wanting to divulge where they live.

BromicAcid - 20-6-2004 at 08:30

Three neck flasks are illegal in Ohio.

Other then that I think most ordinances regarding the storage of hazardous materials and such are governed on a more localized level like the county level. In addition clean air regulations are nationally mandated but for chem labs they are different. I tried to look up the laws governing Michigan on the chemistry front and only found a few mostly related to creating destructive devices and such. To even attempt to answer this topic would be a massive undertaking that would require some training in law.

Most of us are likely unaware of the legality of our experiments and thus keep everything under our hats so to speak.

Plus, what about the international level, poor Axehandle shouldn't even have lead compounds

axehandle - 20-6-2004 at 08:52

Quote:

Plus, what about the international level, poor Axehandle shouldn't even have lead compounds

I'm not even supposed to have lead FILINGS. Don't tell the government that I have a hacksaw!!!

Proteios - 20-6-2004 at 11:01

yeah... the world is full of dumbass regulations....
I once needed 1g of 13CS2, Aldrich made the chemical, but only had it in the states. Because of the hazard sheets they wouldnt ship it by air!!!!! 1g......in a sealed glass ampoule... most cigarette lighters carry more flamable fuel!!!!

As with most pointless laws... its not so much if its leagal or not... its whether the law is enforced or not.

Illegal to own a 3 neck flask!!!!! LMAO... how many prosecutions??
Dumbass law anyway.... How many lives have been saved by this law? 911 paranoia... the irony there being the weapons used... plane tickets and boxcutters are still both legal!

BromicAcid - 20-6-2004 at 11:05

Many are actually prosecuted over the 3-neck flask law. As for the situation in Texas, it appears grim. To my understanding all glassware regardless of usage must be registered piece by piece. Possession of unregistered glassware is a felony and punishable by 5 years in prison.

Most of these laws are in no way related to 9-11 but instead to dramatic increases in drug production.

[Edited on 6/20/2004 by BromicAcid]

NERV - 20-6-2004 at 11:59

Quote:

Originally posted by BromicAcid
Three neck flasks are illegal in Ohio.

Lol, wonder when they’re going to bust down my door, I own more than a few of those.

Personally I think that the government is way to paranoid about drugs, and bombs. Texas is defiantly having problems; I am lucky to only have my 3 neck flasks at risk. Down there you forget to register your test tube and your looking at the possibility of prison time.

I hope that someone here will be able to give some advice on the whole law problem. It could be very useful to the common basement chemist. I will try to look into some of the laws here, but I am no law expert so there are no guarantees I will be able to get much of anything.

axehandle - 20-6-2004 at 12:12

Well, my advice is only valid here, but here goes: The worst you could face is a hefty fine, at least if you have no criminal record and aren't of Arabic origin.

That said, many of the laws over here are completely insane too. I'm not allowed to purchase lead filings or lead compunds, nor nitric acid or sulphuric acid; but when I ordered 100kg of ammonium nitrate (by mail order!) noone raised an eyebrow, and now it's stashed in my hallway.

Esplosivo - 20-6-2004 at 12:33

Where I live its another thing. I dont know how you find chemicals OTC there. Here there's none - or maybe a very few like MEK, maybe acetone, NaOH and common chems.

But if you have the money (which in some ways I get working hard on my accounts skills - I have a low budget lol) and can make friends with a supplier or two you can get nearly everything (including conc acids and the sort). It them is the responsibility of the buyer if he gets hurt or something. The most imp rule when buying chems, be a good looking fellow (an angle in other words lol)

axehandle - 20-6-2004 at 12:41

Quote:

The most imp rule when buying chems, be a good looking fellow (an angle in other words lol)

This is very good advice. Another thing I just came to think of, is that whenever I order something suspicious and they ask what I'm going to use it for, I always reply that I'm developing experimental rocket engines. It tends to classify you a a harmless geek in their eyes.

[Edited on 2004-6-20 by axehandle]

atombum - 20-6-2004 at 12:49

NERV wrote:

Personally I think that the government is way to paranoid about drugs, and bombs.

They are not paranoid, merely attempting omnipotence. When the "drug problem" is considered to be getting "out of control" and 'hurting the children", what that really means is the street price is getting too low so it's time to crack more skulls, drive that price up. When that happens, they (govt./ law enforcement) become wealthier (who do you think gets all those seized assets?).
As an added bonus there are less people walking around that are less productive and aggressive due to drug problems (the govt' wants ambitous, greedy folks willing to kill if needed). And to top it all off, the disproportionate prison terms allow cops to take off the street with just a baggie or vial those who they feel deserve it or are guilty anyways. Now you see why the War on Drugs exists. As a chemist and an individual, I've never been involved in drug use or production, but what has been done to our people is barbaric and inhumane.
For all of the EU's shortcomings regarding freedom, this is one area they have definately evolved past our government.
Thousands killed, tens of thousands of homes/cars/money are robbed/stolen by users, all because of the interntional price inflation "drug laws". And the drug use never stops.
"Oh, but wait, if we can save just ONE kid"...BULLSHIT! Keep on believing that.

On the topic of drugs...

Cyrus - 20-6-2004 at 18:37

Never made any/used any/owned/seen any, so I'm safe from door busting feds there.

Or so I thought- but now I think you can get a friendly visit just for having the capability to make drugs. And the only way, usually, they know if you have the capabilities is if they have a little visit. Thankfully my neighbors think that I am "just" an experimenter.

I think that most of the world is so chemophobic, its pathetic. If it has a long sciency name and I don't know what it is, it must be carcinogenic and corrosive. Man, the STUPIDITY of people.
:mad:

Has anyone heard of the dihydrogen monoxide thing? Apperently some city council banned that evil chemical from being used, IIRC, after they visited the website www.dhmo.org!

As for the government, they are getting their noses into every area of life, our country is still prosperous, but freedom is disappearing with every new bill the lawmakers pass. We are exchanging liberty for security, and going from a more or less healthy democracy towards an all controlling obese nanny-state.

-thought experiment-

Think of three areas of life that
are not regulated/enforced/banned/mandated/watched/advised/disadvised/punished or rewarded by the government. Think hard....

All the government needs to do is to protect us from other countries, have a police force to stop robberies/etc. a fire fighting service , and a post office. None of this wellfare crap. People don't need the government to help them save money for themselves mandatorily, because people can do it better, and the government has a penchant for spending money, even if it is not the gov.'s money. :mad:

Axehandle, file up that lead, but wear a dust mask.

Edit. Ahh yes, I live in Persia. Nevermind.

[Edited on 21-6-2004 by Cyrus]

The_Davster - 20-6-2004 at 19:50

Cyrus, I think you may just have coined a new word, chemophobic.
Its pathetic what most people think a chemical is. Heres a true story from way back in school.

Teacher: Choose a word that you dont know the meaning of from the story you just read
Me: Ill jut choose one that she would not think I would know, "Nitre", so I can avoid the dictionary
Teacher: Now look it up in the dictionary and get two synonyms for it
Me: *hand up* Ms._____ my word is a chemical's archaic name what do you want for a synonym, the IUPAC name?
Teacher: whats IUPAC? Its a chemical right? Just under the synonym section write poison or something else that explodes
:mad:

Talk about a chemophobic sheeple

...
I'm going to start using the word chemophobic a lot more.

[Edited on 21-6-2004 by rogue chemist]

unionised - 21-6-2004 at 15:01

Glad I don't live in "The land of the free". On the other hand I just saw the start of a documentary about people who have sex with animals. It was still legal in some states at the time.

Is that so weird?

Polverone - 21-6-2004 at 15:19

It's legal to kill animals and eat them, I'm not sure why it should be illegal to have sex with them.

Cyrus - 21-6-2004 at 15:43

I don't think I coined chemophobic, I think I saw it somewhere else on this forum. But perhaps I did... I don't remember.

Polverone, animals were created for food/etc., not love (in that way). That's partially why women are here.

Yes, that's right, a creation scientist!

I am not sure if it should be illegal though...

atombum - 21-6-2004 at 16:05

Cyrus Wrote:

Never made any/used any/owned/seen any, so I'm safe from door busting feds there. Or so I thought- but now I think you can get a friendly visit just for having the capability to make drugs. And the only way, usually, they know if you have the capabilities is if they have a little visit.

I have often heard the term "visit" used regarding law enforcement/DEA harassment. Has anyone here an idea of what a pre-warrant "visit" entails?
As law enforcement personnel are specifically trained to use their authority (no intimidation/threats of course) to get as much info without technically trampling a civilians' rights, I'm sure the conversation is not friendly. :mad:

ID needed for toluene?

Magpie - 21-6-2004 at 16:40

I saw something interesting today at my neighborhood paint store. I was wandering around looking for epoxy paint in small containers (there was nothing <2 gallons) when I naturally gravitated to the solvent section. There, much to my pleasant surprise was toluene in 1 gallon containers. I started to wander off when I saw a man (~35 yrs old) dressed in black (not a "good looking fellow," but not disreputable looking either) walk right up and grab a gallon of toluene. I went to the counter and stood back to witness the transaction. He had a wad of bills handy. The cashier then asked to see his ID, which he produced, and wallked away with his solvent.

He didn't look like a painter (but neither do I). I wonder what requirement drove the clerk to ask for his ID?

I recently witnessed this too

Polverone - 21-6-2004 at 18:27

Or rather, it happened to me the last time I bought toluene. I don't go through it very fast, so it was my first toluene purchase since moving to this area a year ago. Not only did I have to show my driver's license, but the clerk took it back to make a photocopy.

The last place I lived, I didn't have to show any ID for toluene or anything else on the shelf when I purchased from the paint or hardware stores. At the place I used to buy toluene, the owner did mention that they keep a lookout for who buys toluene, because it's popular for inhaling among dumb teens/kids. I can't find anything online about ID being required for toluene in this state, so I assume it's some sort of voluntary measure. I don't know if it's aimed against drug manufacture, inhalation, explosives manufacture, or some combination of the above. Maybe paying with cash was what triggered the ID-copy (but I can't remember if I offered cash before or after the ID was taken).

[Edited on 6-22-2004 by Polverone]

Cyrus - 21-6-2004 at 18:41

I think it was the fact that he was 35...

Atombum, I was using sarcasm with the "friendly little visit."

Magpie, have you ever bought toluene there? Did they ask you for your ID?

When I went to a hardware store once, the guy asked me, blatantly, out front, "Are you making meth?" As if I was going to tell him, "yes sir, this purchase is for my meth lab, now here is my ID and my credit card." I laughed of course, and said no, this was for good chemistry, which it was. Why did he ask me? I brought in a plain old pyrex erlenmeyer flask and was trying to find a stopper that fit! And then the lady at the check-out counter tried to impress me with the fact that she knew that the object wrapped in a paper towel (to prevent breakage, not to disguise it) was a flask. By now, they have gotten used to me, and when you say "boric triethylester", "synthesize" "liebig condenser"and "distillation apparatus" a couple of times, all the while acting as if they knew what you were talking about, it helps.

Now they ask me how my projects are going...

So once the trust is there, I can buy any chemicals at that store that I need, unless the cashier is a new one...

buying toluene

Magpie - 21-6-2004 at 21:13

I have never bought toluene in my life but have been thinking I should as it seems to be so rare to find it. As I have mentioned before Home Depot and Lowes stopped carrying it within the last year, in my area at least.

I also cannot find any unadulterated sulfuric acid drain cleaner. So soon as I find it I'm buying at least a gallon.

I was watching the toluene buyer and the clerk very carefully. The buyer was very quiet and made little eye contact with the clerk. He was also trying to appear nonchalant I think by reading a newspaper on the counter. The clerk seemed like he just wanted to get it over with. Not the normal banter of legitimate activities it seemed.

Why is toluene in the paint store anyway?

axehandle - 22-6-2004 at 03:41

Quote:

Why is toluene in the paint store anyway?

Probably because it's a solvent for tar.

Btw: What could possibly compel anyone to actually *sniff* it? It's most likely a solvent for brain tissue as well...

[Edited on 2004-6-22 by axehandle]

government bans

Magpie - 24-6-2004 at 20:05

Quote:

I'm not even supposed to have lead FILINGS. Don't tell the government that I have a hacksaw!!!

This is very hard to believe. Lead is so readily available in the US as fishing weight. If they tried to ban it here there would be an uprising by millions of irate fishermen, including me, that would make the war in Iraq look like child's play.

This supports my argument that our wimp legislators just react and ban what is convenient to ban to show the public that, yes indeed, we are taking action.

So they turn all the store clerks into little spies reporting on their neighbors if they buy too much acetone. This has little effect as I understand that by far most of the meth comes into the US from the "superlabs" in Mexico, not the local cooks.

Why on earth is lead banned in Sweden anyway?

The_Davster - 24-6-2004 at 21:27

I think it has to do with there being too many environmentalists there. From Axehandle's other posts I've intrerpreted that there is really strict environmental regulations over there. I wonder what their stance on Hg is over there if they hate lead so badly?

Sourcing toluene

blazter - 25-6-2004 at 21:01

It took a while to find a hardware store in my locale that sold toluene, as none of the major chain stores seem to carry it (lowes, mall-wart, etc.). Finally happened on it in a small local hardware store, where they had only 2, 1 gallon cans in stock and the sticker said "available on request" or such, so I guess I was lucky that they stocked it. It was some very generic looking brand, just a white can with "Toluene" on it basically. Thankfully meth is practically nonexistant in my region of the states so there wasn't any funny looks or ID checks, even when paying cash. Apparently there are enough substitutes for toluene when painting that it isn't usually necessary, and it would appear that xylene is more or less replacing it where it is needed.

Mumbles - 28-6-2004 at 17:55

I'm lucky enough to have several friends who work at the hardware store where I purchase most of my chems. I find out when suprise sales are in advance, don't get questioned, and can buy more or less whatever I want. They don't know the full extent of my experimentation, but they've seen some of the less harmful stuff. Crystalisation of Benzoic Acid is one so they don't question the toluene. That and I doubt they know what the second T in TNT stands for.

I think the glassware laws here(wisconsin) are pretty lax. There is very little in the way of drugs besides pot, mushrooms, and some anti-depressant pills. There is a large supplier of simple glassware and chemicas a half-hour away. No ground glass for me. No chemicals either, you need an institution. I've been to a place in Milwaukee, it is chemist heaven. They have all the little odds and ends you'd normally have to buy bulk, and very cheap. They have just totally random things. I mean who doesn't need a buchner funnel that is a foot in diameter?

Good point Cyrus

Quantum - 28-6-2004 at 18:46

I live in Virginia and the laws here are ok. I have no problem buying solvents, exotic metal salts, strong acids and bases ext at the local shops. I buy my glassware online(no ground glass yet). Ill tell you one thing; there is nothing like getting an old man to buy your chems for you to avoid trouble! I was gone and my grandad got me some KMnO<sub>4</sub>, some Tin Oxide(1lbs!) and about 40 test tubes, amber glass bottles and vials with PP tops. Hes going to mail it all to me.

BTW: As some of you may remember my uber cool ceramic top, microchip controlled hotplate/stirrer broke about a month ago. I finaly found the problem. A wire that supplied power to the heating coils popped up and came into contact with a circuit board. The heat destroyed one eched wire on the plate and messed it up. I know a small shop where they fix computers and electronics. The guys there know linux and are cool. I bet I can get a good price as all they need to do is solder a bridge wire between the 2 edges at the burnt part. I don't have very much skill so Im not going to try to solder it myself and risk messing it up worse.

I agree with Cyrus! The government should be small. In fact I think the post office should be gotten rid of. Private companies can do good jobs with packages so they will do well with letters. Competition will keep the price down.

Libertarian Party Site

If you want a small government that belives in freedom(chemical and otherwise) then look here. I think its got to start at the county and state level first before trying to get into the house or senate(or whitehouse).

[Edited on 29-6-2004 by Quantum]

Cyrus - 29-6-2004 at 14:12

I'm conservative.

The libertarians have some good points.
And some bad ones. But that is OT, and I would have to study their views more before I could argue competantly. However, if you want, I could try.

I do not think that the "change to more liberty, happiness, and no questions toluene- (see, I said toluene, this is on topic!)" needs to start at the county. It needs to start at the individual. Right now, individuals want security, and that is what they are going to get. Let me quote something...

Perhaps some are familiar with this warning from Scots Historian, Professor Alexander Tyler circa 1787.

Re: The Fall of the Athenian Republic.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse (generous gifts) from the public treasury. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.

"The average age of the world's greatest [democratic] civilization has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through this sequence:

"From bondage to spiritual faith;
from spiritual faith to great courage;
from courage to liberty;
from liberty to abundance;
from abundance to complacency;
from complacency to apathy;
from apathy to dependence;
from dependence back into bondage."

In other words, don't expect the laws to get any less stiff until the bondage ends.

How it is going to end I will leave to your imagination...

in case you were wondering, that quote was quoted by me from http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:wLYGe7D9dGgJ:www.ahrc.com/new/index.php/src/news/sub/article/action/ShowMedia/id/539+%22from+bondage+to%22+%22fro m+dependance%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

[Edited on 29-6-2004 by Cyrus]

Maryland

MadHatter - 7-10-2004 at 14:00

No laws on apparatus or chemicals I can find. Just the usual laws against
drugs and explosives.

neutrino - 8-10-2004 at 19:22

I think we can weed out the worst offenders in the US by their banning of unregistered 3-neck flasks. CA, TX, OH, any others?

Magpie - 9-10-2004 at 17:59

I could live without a 3-neck flask but having to register all glassware is the most Draconian and perverse law I've ever heard of. I lived in Texas for a few months compliments of the US Air Force. I found Texans to be an independent minded lot and therefore find it surprising that they would put up with this shit. I would think that they would prefer to just hang the meth makers.

thalium - 3-11-2004 at 06:38

In Romania,Eurpe you can buy any kind of glassware, they don't ask you about age or what you use them for. You also don't have to register them

JohnWW - 3-11-2004 at 23:29

In New Zealand, which is a socialist country (and just as well it is - I'm a red-hot Socialist), you can buy any sort of glassware without any sort of permission or license. The only limitation is that you could be charged with possessing instruments for drug use if you were busted by the corrupt local Pigs with both drugs (or other evidence of drug use) and "bongs" for smoking drugs at the same time. I am working with the local Green Party to try to get the law changed, and cannabis completely legalized and personal use of other drugs legalized.

As regards drug precursors, you have to identify yourself and have ytour name and address recorded when buying cold/flu medication containing ephedrine or pseudoephedrine, of which only one packet at a time can be bought and only from pharmacies, in case you might be a drug baron who is going to use the stuff to make methamphetamine. Similar preparations containing codeine can be similarly bought over the counter, without identification but only one bottle or packet at a time.

thalium - 4-11-2004 at 02:44

In my country you need prescription for a lot of medicines and they introduced a new kind of prescription paper wich can't be counterfieted, or at least not without a lot of work and equipment

jimwig - 4-11-2004 at 11:03

viola the libertarian party aka freedom and liberty. I am tired of being of against things so I found a positive political focus.

well worth checking out

also keep in mind that a great deal of the "laws" on the books are a public relations campaign meaning that they look good and smell good to the pathetic portion of the populace that needs to fund those agencies who shall protect them from themselves.

[Edited on 4-11-2004 by jimwig]

Sandmeyer - 17-10-2005 at 08:17

Quote:

Originally posted by atombum
Pretty much everyone knows of Texas' ridiculous glassware laws (only criminals practice non-corporate based chemistry).

Isn't it amazing? First the corporate entities get the same legal rights as a citizent, which is outrageous in itself, now they have more rights than citizents.

[Edited on 17-10-2005 by Sandmeyer]

quicksilver - 25-10-2005 at 07:18

Quote:

Originally posted by Quantum

BTW: As some of you may remember my uber cool ceramic top, microchip controlled hotplate/stirrer broke about a month ago. I finaly found the problem. A wire that supplied power to the heating coils popped up and came into contact with a circuit board. The heat destroyed one eched wire on the plate and messed it up. I know a small shop where they fix computers and electronics. The guys there know linux and are cool. I bet I can get a good price as all they need to do is solder a bridge wire between the 2 edges at the burnt part. I don't have very much skill so Im not going to try to solder it myself and risk messing it up worse.
]

Listen, if you haven't already had it fixed, you CAN do it yourself. There is a standard "fix-it" material called "Nickel print" and "Copper print" that is a micron metal paint for repairing or enhancing printed circuit boards. You simply paint across the burnt portion! It works VERY well I have been using it for years. You can buy it at electronic stores; it's a common item amongst electronic geeks

Like me....

quicksilver - 25-10-2005 at 07:34

Quote:

Originally posted by jimwig
viola the libertarian party aka freedom and liberty. I am tired of being of against things so I found a positive political focus.

well worth checking out

also keep in mind that a great deal of the "laws" on the books are a public relations campaign meaning that they look good and smell good to the pathetic portion of the populace that needs to fund those agencies who shall protect them from themselves.

[Edited on 4-11-2004 by jimwig]

I agree completely and was a great supporter of the Libertairian party for many years but they lost me when they made a joke out of an election in NY some 15 years back...they ran a stupid radio show host instead of a true Libertarian Party guy. I was very angry with them for wasting the time and effort of their supporters - even though I have never lived in NY and know that they ran the guy for publicity (plus they didn't have a guy lined up but did have a ballot space). But it was a very bad move; people looked at them as a joke and the Libertarian concept is NOT a joke.
I wrote the National HQ & told them that was a very bad move, etc; they wrote back telling me that they felt the same but NY went off on it's own...so....I still feel they have some great ideas but some of them don't take the 3rd party concept seriously and that is a serious problem. This country (USA) NEEDS a 3rd (or 4th) Party to develop some choices & evolve some dialog!

12AX7 - 25-10-2005 at 08:38

Quote:

Originally posted by quicksilver
This country (USA) NEEDS a 3rd (or 4th) Party to develop some choices & evolve some dialog!

Someone needs to bring back the Bull-Moose party.

mick - 25-10-2005 at 10:23

In the past being a technician I have been able to sign for chemicals and order just about anything (except radioactive stuff worse than uranyl nitrate). Someone wants 1,1,1trichloroethane for a solvent in a reaction and the order does not turn up. After getting the end of use form you have to log into the EU web site and get an Ozone depeliting ID number, give the information and you get a pass word etc
mick