Sciencemadness Discussion Board - most powerful whistle mix

most powerful whistle mix

Vikascoder - 13-12-2012 at 08:12

There are various types of whistle mix of like potassium chlorate+ benzoic acid ,potassium chlorate+sodium benzoate,potassium chlorate+potassium benzoate I want to know which one of them is most powerful and what's the correct ratio of all the mix .

hyfalcon - 13-12-2012 at 08:25

You want powerful or do you want safe?

You can start your reading here:

Code:

http://www.skylighter.com/fireworks/how-to-make/whistle-mix.asp
and here:
http://www.pyrocreations.com/rocket_propellants1

[Edited on 13-12-2012 by hyfalcon]

[Edited on 13-12-2012 by hyfalcon]

Vikascoder - 13-12-2012 at 17:13

I want the most powerful mix. Which one of them is most powerful. I know they are dangerous I am not worried about safety because I am doing it in micro scale so please tell me which one of the above mentioned is most powerful mix

hames - 14-12-2012 at 00:50

vikaskoder, my most powerful whistle is 76 potassium perchlorate,23 potassium benzoate,1 copper oxychloride bound with vaseline.my little 1/4 inch rockets lift a half ounce to a decent height and can lift a full ounce about 15-20m high where as iron oxide can only really lift a small salute,mind you I haven't tried salicylates.

[Edited on 15-12-2012 by hames]

woelen - 14-12-2012 at 01:09

If you value your limbs, don't use chlorates. Instead, use perchlorates! This is rule number 1! Even if you don't care for safety, you still need some basic stability of your products. If you use chlorate, then it is not the question whether or not you will get unwanted ignition, then it is the question when you will get unwanted ignition. And even one single gram of whistle mix can result in nasty wounds if it ignites at the wrong time and the wrong place!

jamit - 14-12-2012 at 02:06

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

If you value your limbs, don't use chlorates. Instead, use perchlorates! This is rule number 1! Even if you don't care for safety, you still need some basic stability of your products. If you use chlorate, then it is not the question whether or not you will get unwanted ignition, then it is the question when you will get unwanted ignition. And even one single gram of whistle mix can result in nasty wounds if it ignites at the wrong time and the wrong place!

Hey Woelen,

Does that make whistle mix with chlorate as dangerous as flash powder... at least in terms of instability and sensitivity to ignition?

I've never done this but just wondering if whistle mix is that dangerous. thanks.

woelen - 14-12-2012 at 04:16

Whistle mix is dangerous stuff, even with perchlorates. It is comparable with flash powder. I do not play around with that kind of stuff, I value my fingers too much.
When you use chlorate instead of perchlorate, then I think that you really are begging for big trouble!

Vikascoder - 14-12-2012 at 08:42

I have only potasium chlorate no access to potassium perchlorate so please suggest me the correct ratios and most powerful mix of the above mentioned mix in my first post

hyfalcon - 14-12-2012 at 14:40

If you value you fingers and other appendages, DON'T USE CHLORATE!

watson.fawkes - 14-12-2012 at 18:45

Quote: Originally posted by hyfalcon

If you value you fingers and other appendages, [...]

Anybody who, as this person does consistently, demands the most powerful whatever, doesn't value their fingers. I have a question about whether they value their own life.

plante1999 - 14-12-2012 at 18:53

Quote: Originally posted by watson.fawkes

Quote: Originally posted by hyfalcon

If you value you fingers and other appendages, [...]

Anybody who, as this person does consistently, demands the most powerful whatever, doesn't value their fingers. I have a question about whether they value their own life.

I think the wisdom come with ages.

I do quite dangerous things, very toxic, but I do them safely and my only fear is death, so be assured that I keep my things safe. Pyrotechnics are different, they don't give a chance, that's mostly why I don't use them (Play). I still keep saying that energetics should only be done for developing better explosive, not to play with them, especially not fuel- oxidizer ones, I find these especially k3wl.

Vikascoder - 14-12-2012 at 19:34

Quote: Originally posted by plante1999

Quote: Originally posted by watson.fawkes

Quote: Originally posted by hyfalcon

If you value you fingers and other appendages, [...]

Anybody who, as this person does consistently, demands the most powerful whatever, doesn't value their fingers. I have a question about whether they value their own life.

I value my limbs my life . I am not doing pyrotechnics for fun . I am doing it on microscale . I have experience in making organic peroxides nitroglycerine and other high explosives this time i am making most powerful whistle mix so i want to know which one can be made from potassium chlorate and benzoic acid or sodium benzoate or potassium benzoate and what are the correct ratios

hyfalcon - 15-12-2012 at 04:14

You are just asking for a CATO before you even get something on the launch pad. Any of these mixtures are shock sensitive. The picture at the top of the first link is what a CATO with the SAFE mix is capable of.

woelen - 15-12-2012 at 07:37

@Vikascoder: I hope that the message of all responses is clear. If you don't have perchlorates then you have two options:
1) Forget about whistle mix at all (this probably is the best option for you)
2) Take the effort and get yourself some KClO4. It's hard to obtain, but not impossible.
There is only one reaction which gives a recipe for a mix, and that is based on KClO4!

Swede - 15-12-2012 at 09:18

Certain material approach what are called in Pyrotechnics "Death Mixes." Armstrong's mixture comes to mind. So stupidly sensitive and dangerous that nobody with any sense makes it anymore. I wouldn't say a chlorate-based whistle approaches Armstrong's, but it may be close.

If you want to play with a death mixture, it's your call. Probably somewhere near 70:30 oxidizer to fuel is close.

The number of people who come to forums like this asking the things you do, who have the attitude of "I'm smarter and safer than those other guys who blew up, it won't happen to me" is staggering. I can say this because it is obvious you think "It won't happen to me." If someone DID think that, they'd obviously not pursue it.

hyfalcon - 15-12-2012 at 18:22

I can just see someone trying to hand ram one of these mixes. If he did, he would be a prime candidate for a Darwin award. Any of these mixes have to be rammed with an arbor press or a hydraulic press, along with all necessary blast shields and safety equipment. This material is no joke!

Vikascoder - 16-12-2012 at 04:10

I had made some rockets with potassium chlorate and benzoic acid today and successfully all were extremely powerful andluckily no accidents . now I will work with sodium benzoate and potassium chlorate tomorrow

woelen - 18-12-2012 at 00:12

:mad:

You still didn't get the message????

Luckily no accidents? Not now, maybe not tomorrow, but you WILL have accidents if you go on like you do now.

This is soooo k3wl :mad:

hyfalcon - 18-12-2012 at 02:01

I've said all I'm going to on the subject. caveat emptor

jamit - 18-12-2012 at 03:43

Quote: Originally posted by Vikascoder

I had made some rockets with potassium chlorate and benzoic acid today and successfully all were extremely powerful andluckily no accidents . now I will work with sodium benzoate and potassium chlorate tomorrow

You just don't get it! Its not just your appendages and life that is at stake if something goes wrong...u will also bring unwanted attention to a hobby that is already under great suspicion.

I really want to encourage younger members of this forum to learn and share, including the science and chemistry behind energetics, but when some respected members on this forum are telling you not to use, "chlorate", you need to listen!!! It doesn't matter if you are going to do it 'microscale'.

Get "perchlorate" or don't do it at all!!! May God be with you!

Vikascoder - 18-12-2012 at 05:44

Finally I last time used potassium chlorate and sodium benzoate and made only one rocket with ot ratios were 7:3 It was far more powerful than potassium chlorate and benzoic acid . I did everything very very carefully and luckily i didn't had any accident this time also

:-D

Mailinmypocket - 18-12-2012 at 06:10

Apparently the message has not been received. Never, when experimenting, should you need to say "luckily there was no accident this time either!"

First if you need to say "luckily" this demonstrates that you are leaving your safety up to chance. You may have an accident or you may not, who knows. The fact that you are even anticipating potential accidents from preparing a known dangerous mix and then gloating about not having any is rather immature.

Perhaps since luck seems to be on your side and you are on a four leaf clover pooping streak you should try gambling- who knows how far your luck will get you then. Maybe you could win enough money to build yourself a perchlorate cell?

[Edited on 18-12-2012 by Mailinmypocket]

Bert - 18-12-2012 at 12:45

500 grams of whistle mix in a Plastic bag.

http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fireworks/extra/500gramwhist...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vf1WCtYN6A&feature

That's perchlorate whistle mix, phlegmatized with mineral oil

Don't worry about "most powerful". Worry about safe handling, and avoid Chlorate.

http://www.creagan.net/fireworks/rockets/whistletests.html

[Edited on 18-12-2012 by Bert]

[Edited on 18-12-2012 by Bert]

Metacelsus - 1-1-2013 at 16:25

Quote: Originally posted by Vikascoder

I have only potasium chlorate no access to potassium perchlorate so please suggest me the correct ratios and most powerful mix of the above mentioned mix in my first post

You can easily make KClO4 from KClO3 via electrolysis. I believe there is a thread on this.

Mumbles - 4-1-2013 at 00:50

Having been through a very serious pyrotechnic accident myself, I can assure you that you're asking for trouble. I did something dumb, and I admit it. A freak accident was greatly compounded. However you make my poor decisions look like Nobel level research. I really hope you start saving now for the hospital and legal bills that you will endure. Given your attitude it's not an if, it's a when.

sum - 10-1-2015 at 10:29

I make whistle mix(pot.chlorate/salicylate) but can't whistle(HND press only).plz tell me about this

sum - 10-1-2015 at 10:32

HND=hand

Bert - 10-1-2015 at 13:13

Please tell us exactly what you are doing.

Mixture, exact content and % of each by weight. Include particle size for all ingredients. Describe processes used in mixing and consolidating. Dimensions of finished device. Any thing known of humidity, storage conditions the and possibility of related water content of failed device.

Don't abbreviate.

j_sum1 - 10-1-2015 at 15:30

@ sum.

Oh dear.

sum - 10-1-2015 at 16:16

% is
1-70/30
2-69/30,redoxid1,pet.jelly+3
partical size is about pot chlorat 200 mesh,sod sacilayt150 mesh and redoxid is100 to150 mesh(not conf.) Dimensions is about 1•5``inch long and appx 7mm d.

j_sum1 - 10-1-2015 at 17:02

Quote: Originally posted by sum

% is
1-70/30
2-69/30,redoxid1,pet.jelly+3
partical size is about pot chlorat 200 mesh,sod sacilayt150 mesh and redoxid is100 to150 mesh(not conf.) Dimensions is about 1•5``inch long and appx 7mm d.

Pieces of finger and eyeball +36%

Did you read this thread before you made your first post?

sum - 10-1-2015 at 17:41

Not available kclo4 only kclo3

Bert - 10-1-2015 at 20:01

First: it seems you are using too much fuel and too little oxidizer. 70:30 works with perchlorate, chlorate calls for closer to 75:20 as there is less Oxygen available per moll. See below-

HOW did you distribute the petroleum jelly evenly through the mixture- Did you use a solvent, such as lacquer thinner? If so, are you certain it has all evaporated?

While drying off the solvent, how humid was the air... Damp whistle mix doesn't work, regardless of being wet with hydrocarbons or water.

THIS: chlorate mixtures should NEVER be dried in direct sunlight. Small amounts of acidic impurities and moisture will cause a bit of Chlorine dioxide to be formed. Ultra violet light in sunshine then causes the Chlorine dioxide to set your composition on fire! So don't- If it's the only oxidizer you have, learn chlorate's particular dangers, and how to minimize them.

:mad:

And tell your Chinese suppliers you want PERchlorate. It doesn't cost much more, and you won't be his customer anymore if his chlorate kills you.

---------

Are you in India?

Yes, you can make whistle with Potassium chlorate. But it's a lot more dangerous-

If you stick a blasting cap in it, goes high order. Goes off from much less shock, than perchlorate whistle, probably a lot less friction as well- I'll have to look the figures up. Minor contamination with Sulfur, sulfides, Antimony or Arsenic compounds among other things will all further sensitize this, like pretty much any other chlorate mix.

[Edited on 11-1-2015 by Bert]

[Edited on 11-1-2015 by Bert]

sum - 10-1-2015 at 23:44

Thanks for reply.I know difference detween kcol3/kcol4(o2 factor).yes u right I am Hindustani (Indian).I uses MEk for make W/mix.but I want only use pot.chlorat and sod.sali.only to making w/mix.right now I trying to make w/mix 76/26% of comp.thanks again

sum - 10-1-2015 at 23:50

We are not believed in chiness and there material.I think my kclo3 is slightly impour.

sum - 11-1-2015 at 02:09

No whistle 75/20 &76/20.no add another material (redoxid&vesli.).partical size is about air/fl. What can I do for whistle:

sum - 11-1-2015 at 03:20

is partical size,tube size & pressures also depend for whistle?

sum - 11-1-2015 at 07:02

is partical size,tube size & pressures also depend for whistle?

sum - 11-1-2015 at 08:41

76/20 is looks good when lit the powder but not whistle

Bert - 11-1-2015 at 09:44

Read the processing directions.

You need to mix well the iron oxide catalyst and powdered fuel, then dissolve the petroleum jelly in a solvent such as toluene or lacquer thinner, mix the thinned jelly into fuel and knead it inside a large zip lock bag until a very consistent, thin mud consistency is produced with no lumps, dry or differently colored areas.

Then the well powdered oxidizer is added to the bag, sealed with most of the air squeezed out and kneaded again until it is perfectly uniform color and consistency.

The mixed fuel is spread out thinly in small bits on a plastic sheet or similar non stick surface and dried in the shade, outdoors, in dry weather for SEVERAL DAYS.

Like this video, but do it in a bag, much less messy and smelly

Then tell us how it works/doesn't work.

sum - 11-1-2015 at 11:39

Can I uses MEK for this work.

sum - 11-1-2015 at 11:45

Toluene and Mek r approx same property ...

Bert - 11-1-2015 at 12:10

MEK is hygroscopic. If you use it in humid conditions, it would attract water out of the air. Choose a non hygroscopic solvent.

Do you work at a fireworks factory?

sum - 11-1-2015 at 17:39

OK... thanks. No

sum - 12-1-2015 at 06:13

This batch looks better then first batch.

sum - 19-1-2015 at 02:12

Pressure and tube size does matter for whistle ? when I test my other whis.mix batch than little whistle. then I do other test
they fail.

maleic - 21-1-2015 at 19:26

potassium chlorate+sodium benzoate
2C6H5COONA+10KCLO3--------10KCL+NA2CO3+5H2O+13CO2

You can try if you want the feeling of flying