Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Metal X (need help identifying this metal/alloy)

Metal X (need help identifying this metal/alloy)

Fantasma4500 - 21-3-2013 at 12:30

i have randomly while traveling around in my town found a nice sheet piece of metal.. very shiny.. thought it was steel.. im very confused over this metal..

so.. what i have observed about this metal so to say..
1. its lightweight (30 x 10 x 1mm weights ~70g)
2. its corrosion resistant, very shiny. also against strong acids
3. it can very easily be bend in half
4. it has a relatively low melting point.. kinda middle of lead and aluminium, but not same properties as aluminium or lead..

what i doubt it is...
i doubt its mainly lead containing as dissolving it with HCl (kickstarted with electrolysis) didnt give a massive precipitate.. didnt see any precipitate actually..
aluminium would seem strange if it was.. its lightweight, yes.. but it doesnt react very well with acids if at all..
i have looked the periodic table to find some hints mainly going for low densities but stuff like beryllium just seems unlikely to find randomly on a road..

http://youtu.be/A1y2TRraZyc

i filmed abit with this aswell as getting a precipitate.. insoluble carbonate i got from XxClx (unknown metal, unknown amount of chlorine bound to metal) and Na2CO3
so a carbonate or hydroxide, but not lead as it would already be insolble chloride (0.65g/100mL, dissolves quite easily)

im aware this might be an alloy.. but still mysterious properties!! im considering to use this metal for cathode for electrolysis as its really corrosion resistant..

DraconicAcid - 21-3-2013 at 12:38

Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat

i have randomly while traveling around in my town found a nice sheet piece of metal.. very shiny.. thought it was steel.. im very confused over this metal..

so.. what i have observed about this metal so to say..
1. its lightweight (30 x 10 x 1mm weights ~70g)
2. its corrosion resistant, very shiny. also against strong acids
3. it can very easily be bend in half
4. it has a relatively low melting point.. kinda middle of lead and aluminium, but not same properties as aluminium or lead..

what i doubt it is...
i doubt its mainly lead containing as dissolving it with HCl (kickstarted with electrolysis) didnt give a massive precipitate.. didnt see any precipitate actually..
aluminium would seem strange if it was.. its lightweight, yes.. but it doesnt react very well with acids if at all..
i have looked the periodic table to find some hints mainly going for low densities but stuff like beryllium just seems unlikely to find randomly on a road..

http://youtu.be/A1y2TRraZyc

i filmed abit with this aswell as getting a precipitate.. insoluble carbonate i got from XxClx (unknown metal, unknown amount of chlorine bound to metal) and Na2CO3
so a carbonate or hydroxide, but not lead as it would already be insolble chloride (0.65g/100mL, dissolves quite easily)

im aware this might be an alloy.. but still mysterious properties!! im considering to use this metal for cathode for electrolysis as its really corrosion resistant..

Based on your measurements, that would be a density of about 2.3, which is very light for a metal. Aluminum often doesn't react with acid simply because the surface is passivated. Try reacting it with concentrated sodium hydroxide, to see if it reacts with that.

The precipitate that you got with sodium carbonate- is it powdery? Gelatinous? Can you collect it and treat it with acid to see if it dissolves to give CO2? This will tell you if it is a carbonate or a hydroxide.

DraconicAcid - 21-3-2013 at 12:45

Your measurement of density is extremely rough. Cut a piece off, roll it into a cylinder tight enough to be slipped into a graduated cylinder, and measure its density more precisely.

blogfast25 - 21-3-2013 at 13:38

'Metal X' is almost certainly an Al alloy with mostly Al.

Use sand paper to clean a nice piece, then put it in 50 % (NOT 96 %) H2SO4, it should bubble away quite quickly. Alloying elements can affect acid resistance, though. Subject it also to strong NaOH or Na2CO3. Demonstrate amphoterism of the formed salts in both cases.

To measure density, take a 'nice and clean' piece and weight it accurately. Then suspend it from a thread into a beaker with clean water that was tared on your scales (make sure no bubbles adhere to the surface). The 'negative weight' you will record is the weight of the displaced water and because d = 1 g/cm³ for water it also gives you a fairly accurate reading of the volume of the piece. Divide to get the density.

[Edited on 21-3-2013 by blogfast25]

Mixell - 21-3-2013 at 13:54

Quite often aluminium is alloyed with silicon, which gives a gray tint to precipitated aluminium or gives a grey-black tint to a solution because of silicon colloid (or alternatively present as a brown-grey voluminous goo, like gunk at the bottom of an aquarium).

If by dissolving it you get a clear and clean solution, that means it's a low-silicon content alloy.

Check the following table: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_alloy

I would put my money on it being alloy No. 7068.

Fantasma4500 - 21-3-2013 at 13:54

draconic acid: i think i forgot to mention that i have reacted it with NaOH, which was awfully slow.. insanely slow!! somehow missed adding that..
the stuff i got as carbonate or hydroxide is very light fluffy substance... you can see pics of it in the link..
but yes im considering trying to melt a more massive blob out of a smaller part of this material to try and measure the density.. i got some very high grade ''plane aluminium'' which is whats used for F16's.. perhaps i should compare against that, tho im sure its abit more dense than my metal..?
it should be the HARDEST alloy, but not nessecarily made for flying around in 96% H2SO4 so to say..

Fantasma4500 - 21-3-2013 at 13:57

blogfast: i have a graduated 100 mL cylinder.. i think ill perhaps even try to roll it into a small cylinder, some of it and then add say... 5 mL of it or 10 mL then weight it out.. its pretty clean and the surface stuff is less than 0.1% of the weight, but the surface stuff seems very unreactive as it didnt even reactive with HCl under electrolysis!!

Mixell - 21-3-2013 at 13:58

Bulk aluminium reacts quite slowly with OH- solution at room temperature (it took me couple of hours to dissolve a 0.5-0.3 cm thick piece in very concentrated NaOH at 80-90C).

I would also like to mention that alloy 7068 is the strongest commercially available aluminium alloy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7068_aluminium_alloy

blogfast25 - 21-3-2013 at 14:00

Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat

the stuff i got as carbonate or hydroxide is very light fluffy substance... you can see pics of it in the link...

Aluminium reacts with aqeuous NaOH to form sodium aluminate, which is water soluble (NaAl(OH)₄). There should be no insoluble precipitate. But are you sure your metal was clean enough? Insoluble surface dirt could deceptively 'create' a 'precipitate'.

Any silicon in the alloy also dissolves slowly in sodium hydroxide solution.

[Edited on 21-3-2013 by blogfast25]

Fantasma4500 - 21-3-2013 at 14:02

Mixell:
i see that its a strong alloy (strong.. how?) i guess they mean strong by not being able to be bend like if it was soft cheese.. i could bend it with no problem

but yes probably aluminium alloy.. but would this hold up with cathode use?? aluminium is usually not that good.. also i still highly doubt that its aluminium as i understand aluminium carbonate which should have been produced will bubble away when its formed..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvxMlWajekk

this reaction i didnt have anywhere near when i mixed the (al??)Cl with Na2CO3 which would produce aluminium carbonate..

blogfast25 - 21-3-2013 at 14:05

Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat

also i still highly doubt that its aluminium as i understand aluminium carbonate which should have been produced will bubble away when its formed..

Aluminium carbonate doesn't exist. Al is weakly attacked by strong Na2CO3 and that solution isn't alkaline enough to dissolve Al to aluminate.

Mixell - 21-3-2013 at 14:37

Get some http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminon and test for aluminium.
A 1mm thick sheet should bend easily. My 1.56mm titanium mesh electrodes bend easily as well.

Fantasma4500 - 22-3-2013 at 07:55

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat

the stuff i got as carbonate or hydroxide is very light fluffy substance... you can see pics of it in the link...

clean enough??
i first reacted the metal with HCl, then i decanted it off, then boiled it down
then i took the dry chloride salt and dissolved in water and added a solution of Na2CO3, then i got a white precipitate, but the white stuff i found on bottom of my XxClx was pure white.. couldnt have been dirt.. (:
but silicone is possible.. density is apparently

2.604 (5mL / 13.02)

Fantasma4500 - 22-3-2013 at 07:57

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat

also i still highly doubt that its aluminium as i understand aluminium carbonate which should have been produced will bubble away when its formed..

Aluminium carbonate doesn't exist. Al is weakly attacked by strong Na2CO3 and that solution isn't alkaline enough to dissolve Al to aluminate.

exactly.. put a link in one of the replies to ammonium carbonate + aluminium sulfate.. (: it goes into Al2O3 and CO2..
or well H2CO3 which goes into H2O and CO2

Fantasma4500 - 22-3-2013 at 07:59

Quote: Originally posted by Mixell

Get some http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminon and test for aluminium.
A 1mm thick sheet should bend easily. My 1.56mm titanium mesh electrodes bend easily as well.

the idea of titanium have striked me a few times... but its density is 2.604 (5mL / 13.02)
so.. thats about half titanium's density..
i might attempt to make this aluminon.. you think i can somehow degenerate acetylicsalicylic acid to salicylic acid? i got formaldehyde already..

Mixell - 22-3-2013 at 09:13

I have around 50g of it, I can send you a bit if you want, if you'll cover the shipping cost.

The solution doesn't look dark or brown at all, so it's not silicon/carbon you got there.

unionised - 22-3-2013 at 09:19

If you have a decent balance it's easy to measure the density.
Get a container big enough to hold the object.
nearly fill it with water.
Put it on the scales and note the weight (or zero the balance)
tie a bit of thread to the object.
Lower the object into the water so that it is all submerged but not touching the sides or bottom of the container.
Record the weight again.
The difference in weights is the upthrust on the object.
Since the density of water is practically 1 gram per ml, the weight difference is equal to the volume of the object.

Weigh the object to get it's mass
The ratio gives you the density.

blogfast25 - 22-3-2013 at 09:50

Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat

the idea of titanium have striked me a few times... but its density is 2.604 (5mL / 13.02)

Titanium hardly reacts with conc. H2SO4 or diluted H2SO4. It does react slowly with 36 w% HCl, quicker with boiling, forming deep blue Ti3+ (hydrated) cations (TiCl3). Add a bit of hydrogen peroxide and it oxidises to a beautiful red Ti(IV) peroxo complex (soluble).

But 'Metal X' is clearly mainly Al. Everything points to it.

Fantasma4500 - 22-3-2013 at 13:14

Quote: Originally posted by Mixell

I have around 50g of it, I can send you a bit if you want, if you'll cover the shipping cost.

The solution doesn't look dark or brown at all, so it's not silicon/carbon you got there.

ill PM you..

Fantasma4500 - 22-3-2013 at 13:17

Quote: Originally posted by unionised

If you have a decent balance it's easy to measure the density.
Get a container big enough to hold the object.
nearly fill it with water.
Put it on the scales and note the weight (or zero the balance)
tie a bit of thread to the object.
Lower the object into the water so that it is all submerged but not touching the sides or bottom of the container.
Record the weight again.
The difference in weights is the upthrust on the object.
Since the density of water is practically 1 gram per ml, the weight difference is equal to the volume of the object.

Weigh the object to get it's mass
The ratio gives you the density.

yes, the problem with this is that my weight is 0.01g - 100g so i cant really put much weight on there and even a plastic 100 mL graduated cylinder weights and especially when the limit is 100g (:
i got the density to 2.6 by dividing 5 mL which it filled with the weight (13.02?)

Fantasma4500 - 22-3-2013 at 13:21

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat

the idea of titanium have striked me a few times... but its density is 2.604 (5mL / 13.02)

true, it could definately seem like it...
looks like i will have to take abit of the hydroxide formed (i guess its hydroxide) and add it to H2SO4, or perhaps just use 96% H2SO4 on aluminium to get some aluminium sulfate so i can approve that aluminium carbonate really is impossible to make...
that way i could turn the product from AlCl3 which it possibly is, into the hydroxide which it apparently is, into sulfate and see that it goes into Al2O3 to finally confirm, that its most likely aluminium..

despite aluminium being quite weak its showing potential for being used as cathode in ClO3 cell.. Al is usually very easily corroded, tho..

blogfast25 - 22-3-2013 at 13:49

Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat

Concentrated H2SO4 is really not so suitable for synthing Al2(SO4)3 from Al sheet. Without water the formed Al sulphate has ‘nowhere to go’ and will clog up the metal’s surface, thereby being an obstacle to further acid attack. Much better to use strong H2SO4 (20 to 50 %), which readily dissolves Al and the sulphate then enters solution. Concentrated solutions of Al sulphate will crystallise out the sulphate hydrate on cooling.

AlCl3 in solid, crystalline from is hard to obtain from dissolving Al metal in HCl because AlCl3 is essentially a covalent compound (not a salt), which hydrolyses quickly and thoroughly. Aluminium chloride hydrate can be obtained by gassing a fairly concentrated solution of AlCl3 (in excess strong HCl) with HCl gas. The white hexahydrate (AlCl3.6H2O) then crystallises out.

[Edited on 22-3-2013 by blogfast25]

Fantasma4500 - 23-3-2013 at 07:06

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat

hm.. sounds advanced.. think i forgot to mention im expecting some aluminon within not that long time, which one of our helpful members of sciencemadness is willing to give abit off..
it should give me the answer whether it contains aluminium or not..
but.. the chloride i have got, im confused over this.. (: the chloride.. where did it go then? i mean the aluminium ions cant just go away.. right? it couldnt have been hydroxide, or well could it? it reacted with carbonate, but not with sulfuric or nitric acid

about the aluminium sulfate..
i added some of my waste aluminium foil to a beaker and some 37% H2SO4
to get the reaction going more well i dropped some 96% H2SO4 onto it aswell, heating also speeds it up abit, but yea i see some white layer forming on it.. very slow reaction.. have been going since yesterday and i dont really see anything different but a white layer formed..

blogfast25 - 23-3-2013 at 07:44

Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat

Re. Aluminon: read up properly on how to use it: pH is really important and it won't work as described if you get it wrong.

AlCl3: if you simply evaporate a watery solution of it you obtain a mixture of Al(OH)3 and aluminium hydroxy chlorides but not AlCl3 hydrate. That because of hydrolysis: the compound reacts with water, very, very simply put as:

AlCl3 + 3 H2O === > Al(OH)3 + 3 HCl

That can be prevented to some extent by keeping the solution highly acidic but once you've evaporated most water, the HCl starts coming off too, leaving you with a gooyie mess of alumina hydrate and some hydrated AlCl_3-n(OH)_n hydrate of unknown composition.

Re. your experiment with H2SO4/'Metal X'. For purposes of comparison include a test using the same amount of 'pop can aluminium'. I've used the opening taps of cans to dissolve them in various acids. They react very swiftly with 50 % H2SO4 (and lower) and after filtering you have a base line Al3+ solution of approx. known concentration for reference purposes, for instance for your Aluminon test.

[Edited on 23-3-2013 by blogfast25]

blogfast25 - 23-3-2013 at 08:07

Here's in an interesting link about the use of Aluminon for Al detection:

http://www.chem.zenkyo.h.kyoto-u.ac.jp/operation/group_2_e.h...

Select the Aluminon Lake video, real interesting...

It would be interesting to see what it does with beryllium compounds too.

[Edited on 23-3-2013 by blogfast25]

Fantasma4500 - 23-3-2013 at 13:37

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

Here's in an interesting link about the use of Aluminon for Al detection:

http://www.chem.zenkyo.h.kyoto-u.ac.jp/operation/group_2_e.h...

Select the Aluminon Lake video, real interesting...

It would be interesting to see what it does with beryllium compounds too.

[Edited on 23-3-2013 by blogfast25]

last time i checked up on the aluminium sulfate it had precipitate and nearly no liquid left, when i scraped the aluminium foil i saw that a very soft and thick layer of aluminium sulfate had covered it..
i could just filter it off now and dry it as good as possible, then redissolve in water and react with (NH4)2CO3 to get the unexisting aluminium carbonate which goes into gas and Al2O3 when formed..

but the yellowish powder i got from metal x + HCl what would that be then if not a chloride??
im getting unsure if this could be aluminium at all tho many facts points in the direction then yet others makes it impossible..

blogfast25 - 23-3-2013 at 13:57

Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat

Your Al2(SO4)3 crystallised: it does that to a soft, mushy, off white substance, at least in the conditions you used. Scrape some off and add quite a bit of water, preferably with one drop of H2SO4 added to it. It should dissolve effortlessly to a dilute solution of Al sulphate.

To this solution add ammonia or sodium bicarbonate solution: both will precipitate white, gelatinous Al(OH)3.nH2O. To that precipitate, add strong (20 % or more) NaOH solution. The aluminium hydroxide will dissolve to sodium aluminate:

Al(OH)3(s) + NaOH(aq) === > NaAl(OH)4(aq)

This property (amphoterism) of aluminium is fairly unique to it and more or less proves your metal is mostly aluminium. Zinc would show very similar behaviour but is much denser. Beryllium too but it’s much lighter (and trust me you have NOT found a chunk of metal worth $1000/kg - if not more!)

The yellow colour could come from ferric ions (Fe3+), either present in your HCl (very common in technical grades) or in your 'Metal X'.

[Edited on 23-3-2013 by blogfast25]

Fantasma4500 - 24-3-2013 at 10:21

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat

so to sum up..
XxClx + Na2CO3
XxCO3 + H2SO4
XxSO4 + .. wait..
XxClx gives this gelatinous stuff..
i could just add NaOH to this..
ok, it seems that i do have an aluminium compound here..
and the yellow colour i have thought as being FeCl3 in the HCl, as i remember that you explained the colour of common HCl ^^

thanks alot, and also i should have some aluminon coming around aswell to perform a 99.9999% chance test (:

blogfast25 - 24-3-2013 at 11:05

Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat

[...] and also i should have some aluminon coming around aswell to perform a 99.9999% chance test (:

But do read up on the test: this one is easy to get wrong, primarily because the free (dissolved) Aluminon is roughly the same colour as the same stuff chemisorbed onto the Al(OH)3.

I've bought some Aluminol this WE and will be experimenting with it when it gets here. I'm quite surprised that so little interest has been taken in Aluminol on this board. Mixell's reference to it appears to be the only one so far.

[Edited on 24-3-2013 by blogfast25]

KonkreteRocketry - 26-3-2013 at 13:43

Strontium ? it don't react with HCl, it's melting point is 700 near aluminum's, it barely react with NaOH also, with density 2.6, it is also shiny...

blogfast25 - 26-3-2013 at 13:49

Quote: Originally posted by KonkreteRocketry

Strontium ? it don't react with HCl, it's melting point is 700 near aluminum's, it barely react with NaOH also, with density 2.6, it is also shiny...

Watch the video by antiswat. When's the last time you found several pounds of strontium metal abandoned like that?

Fantasma4500 - 26-3-2013 at 15:36

Quote: Originally posted by KonkreteRocketry

Strontium ? it don't react with HCl, it's melting point is 700 near aluminum's, it barely react with NaOH also, with density 2.6, it is also shiny...

well i got it to start reacting with HCl diluted by using it as an anode, so i guess it cant be strontium, actually told myself it couldnt be strontium as metals in that group reacts with water..?
anyways, i still doubt it as.. well who would suddenly just drop a 30 cm long piece of strotium out of their wallet and not realise it?!

blogfast25 - 27-3-2013 at 05:05

Strontium is also even softer than Ca and reacts with air even more too. Forget that.

blogfast25 - 2-4-2013 at 10:23

Aluminon Lake Dye: Aluminon ‘chemisorbed’ onto Al(OH)3:

Left: obtained with a 0.1 % Al2O3 solution. Weak but definitely positive.

Middle: obtained with a 1 % Al2O3 solution. Strong positive.

Right: water with a small crystal of ferric ammonium alum dissolved in it. The Fe(OH)3 forms a purple/brown Lake Dye with Aluminon. So ferric ions can create false positives. So can, apparently, Be2+ cations.

Note how all Aluminon is absorbed by the hydroxides, so that the supernatant liquid is clear and colourless.

[Edited on 3-4-2013 by blogfast25]

Fantasma4500 - 3-4-2013 at 07:30

nice.. i need to get to test it out, meanwhile i had some leftover aluminium from my aluminium sulfate which i decided to react with HCl
now that i have dried it it have the very same colour as metal x chloride powder!
its seeming more and more likely.. but i will need to test it out with aluminon which i have laying right infront of me..
shouldnt be that lazy, perhaps too much stuff running at once.. but you know what they say about empty desktops.. (;
i made some ammonium acetate aswell from relatively pure acetic acid and ammonium hydroxide (/ NH3*H2O)
couldnt seem to get it dry, wont matter anyways i guess as its supposed to be dissolved..
even when i dissolved some of the aluminium chloride in water and decanted off the liquid i was left with a growing precipitate every time i poured in new water

but i will put up some conclusive evidence, tho.

blogfast25 - 3-4-2013 at 10:10

Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat

even when i dissolved some of the aluminium chloride in water and decanted off the liquid i was left with a growing precipitate every time i poured in new water

I'm not sure what you understand by 'aluminium chloride' in this context. Actual, anhydrous AlCl₃ can only be prepared ONLY by the direct action of hot, dry HCl or Cl₂ on pure Al. The obtained product reacts immediately with water and hydrolyses promptly. Anhydrous aluminium chloride isn't a salt; it's a mainly covalent compound.

Dissolving Al in aqueous HCl does give a solution of AlCl₃ but from that solution only a hydrate can be obtained and only in 'forcing conditions' (gassing the solution with HCl gas).

What you're talking about is highly hydrolysed AlCl₃, a mixture of Al hydroxychlorides...

[Edited on 3-4-2013 by blogfast25]

Fantasma4500 - 8-4-2013 at 04:14

sorry for bringing this in so late, i have tried to reach this thread but saw so many other threads and pretty much forgot it :s
i did get the reaction as seen in the instructional video on how to use aluminon, i got this gel like aluminon lake precipitate.. so i can pretty much conclude it does at least CONTAIN aluminium..
i tested it on a solution containing iron, where it gave the result i also saw in the video, so i did make it properly..
also saw some strange tetraammine forming when i put a pipette that still had ammonia on it, into the (steel) chloride solution i got from using a chain i was testing for steel..
perhaps i just figured out how to drag nickel out of steel.. useful stuff (: