Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Chemistry for camping?

jgourlay - 29-4-2013 at 10:22

All, I'm looking for some chemical recommendations. I had this weekend a wonderful "fantasy versus reality" experience known as the "Wilderness Survival Merit Badge Campout". I was one of the dads helping a gaggle of 13 kids ranging in age from 12 to 16. This 18 hour, overnight experience was one of the top 4 or 5 most educationally dense experiences of my life. I would like to get from this group some recommendations for next year's camp-out as I have made the mental commitment to go on every 'wilderness survival' experience I can get.

The advice I'd humbly ask from this group is around fire starting. First, the scenario, then a debrief of "what works" and "what doesn't work".

Scenario: temperate forest, torrential downpour, wet, shivering, very cold, dispirited group, muddy ground, lots of wood, either 'living' (wet) or semi-rotting, and nothing dry. No dry grass, no dry leaves, nothing both dry and un-rotten. Very, very difficult to get your firestarting supplies from a pocket to the ground without them getting soaked. In this scenario (this weekend!!) getting the fire started DURING THE DOWNPOUR is critical for both physiological and psychological reasons.

What worked: the absolute tiniest of twigs, a softball size glob of dry lint, sparklers, forced air (LOTS of blowing), magnesium "assist".

What didn't work: "weatherproof matches". The MATCHES worked well, the STRIKER on the other hand was scraped to nothing by match two. Small quantities of anything. Interestingly, a quarter cup of magnesium did NOT work. I'm assuming that through capillary action it soaked up a lot of water from the muddy ground while we were building the twig teepee. By the time I lit off the magnesium, it had soaked up enough water to become largely ineffective. It was useful, later, as an assist as we dug what was left out of the mud. The tiny little "fire starter" devices sold at sporting stores and universally recommended by every "wilderness survival" handbook known to man are completely, utterly useless unless your environment is a kansas wheat field in September after a summer drought. Interestingly, it was also wet enough that a full cup of "white gas" poured on did not have enough energy to 'work'. Note that both the magnesium and white gas together did dry things out enough that lint and mag assist could work.

So, I'm looking for something very specific:

1. needs to be safely transportable, preferably in powder form. By "safe" I mean that if it's spilled in a backpack it will neither be a poisen/hazmat disaster, nor spontaneously combust.
2. Energy dense: half a cup or so should 'do the job'. Hiking packs and day packs don't have much room.
3. It's GOT to work in sopping wet conditions. And "work" means that it has enough energy, and enough burn time, that it can dry out and ignite water-soaked chopstick diameter sticks.
4. Officially, and un-officially legal. Ordering "it" or the ingredients for "it" online should not put me on the "no-fly" list.
5. Conventionally ignitable. I'll put the boundary here at "sparkler" ignition with a strong preference for match/lighter ignition. This is really important because it very difficult to protect something fragile like sparklers from getting bent/crushed in a backpack.
6. Storable: I should be able to store "it" in a bottle, and throw that in the back pack and not have to worry about it becoming either unstable or useless if it gets left in there for a decade. Remember, this is a "when you need it most" piece of kit.

elementcollector1 - 29-4-2013 at 10:30

Magnesium is your best bet (being a Boy Scout, I speak from experience). Grind some shavings up, store them in a bottle, and close the bottle tightly. Pocket lint is another good idea, and a third would be to carry some dry tinder (not a log, more like 'fuzz sticks' in terms of size). Half a cup of magnesium shavings should last you quite a while! Additionally, match/lighter ignition is easy if you keep your magnesium shavings small.
Becoming useless: As far as I can tell, magnesium has a good shelf-life, but will oxidize over time. Try to fill up the bottle, and keep it closed most of the time, and you should be fine.
The scenario: Use rocks for a small firepit (place them in a ring / around a small pit), and place the lint, tinder, and possibly the magnesium in the center. Light it, and slowly add small, dry (carry them in your pack in a towel?) sticks of increasing size until you have a fire.
By the way, those 'weatherproof matches' often come with extra strikers - could that be for the reason you described?

DraconicAcid - 29-4-2013 at 10:47

Odd- I've always found magnesium to be a pain in the neck to light.

I've heard that one can make a kind of candle with wax and dryer lint- the lint acts as a fantastic wick and the wax burns like blazes. But I've never tried it, so your milage may vary.

elementcollector1 - 29-4-2013 at 10:53

Oh, and gasoline / lighter fluid. Works like a charm. ;)

Ral123 - 29-4-2013 at 10:54

Great scenario pal. I'm a huge fan of worst case scenarios, when designing something. The standard for me would be a new bic maxi lighter and some hexamine. For energy density and convenience propane/air burners are the best. Other fuels will either have less energy density(like hexamine) or burn very dirty(and again produce low energy). My magnesium is very difficult to light. Ethanol is a good choice-medium energy density, clean burning, and does not lack of other uses :P

elementcollector1 - 29-4-2013 at 11:08

Do you guys cut your magnesium from the standard 'rectangles' they sell?

Igniting Magnesium Easily

chemcam - 29-4-2013 at 11:19

Quote: Originally posted by elementcollector1  
Do you guys cut your magnesium from the standard 'rectangles' they sell?


I cut my magnesium pieces from those ribbons into irregular, elongated triangles so when I need to light them I can get the flame right on the tip, it ignites no problem. Oh, you mean the thick rectangles in the camping section? With those I use a drill press and make my own turnings. Although, I prefer to buy Mg turnings off of eBay because they are thinner than the ribbons, $20/lb is the price I try to pay.

*EDIT*
(eBay) $24.50 w/ Shipping

[Edited on 4-29-2013 by chemcam]

Boron Trioxide - 29-4-2013 at 13:28

Well you could try some perchlorate mix with some heavy hydrocarbon, as long as there is lots more fuel than oxidizer it should burn slowly similar to a road flare, to store you could mix into a slurry before hand, then store in a strong metal tin. In retrospect this idea should only be used if you have experience with powerful pyrotechnic compositions. :)

An even better idea would to make some alcohol based flaming jelly, just mix calcium acetate with ethanol and it will make some slurry that will burn for a long time and is easy to store.

Final idea would be just to carry around some calcium carbide and mix with water, it may even react with really wet wood.

As always be careful especially if help is far away.

BobD1001 - 29-4-2013 at 15:05

Potassium permagnanate with a few drops of glycerin on it makes a fantastic camping fire starter!

Metacelsus - 29-4-2013 at 15:16

Quote: Originally posted by Boron Trioxide  

Final idea would be just to carry around some calcium carbide and mix with water, it may even react with really wet wood.


This is one of those rare cases where you want a fire, not an explosion. ;)

Godspeed429 - 29-4-2013 at 18:31

A fire piston maybe?




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_piston

violet sin - 29-4-2013 at 19:53

if you keep some steel wool dry it is great for starting fires. pull off a lill bit and wad it up, but not tight. wrap it in a bit of tender. pull a bit of steel wool looser and the spark from a dead bic lighter will set it off. blow on it and the steel wool glows really hot starting the tinder. worked many times for me.

I cut/drilled the bottom off an old bic(still sparked) and shoved a bunch of steel wool in it. took another bic's end piece and super-glued that on the one with ss wool in it. threw it in my hunting gear. though I did end up filling the lighter with butane(the hard way) it would have been fine for starting a fire with just spark and dry ss wool.

its not super chemistry related, but burning metal starting your fire from a spark sure isn't standard procedure.

Ral123 - 29-4-2013 at 21:02

May be a bic lighter and a foil with KNO3(or even better-Tetryl)/Al with heavy Al excess.

chemcam - 29-4-2013 at 21:13

Keep thermite in a plastic baggy so it stays dry ignite it with a pen torch with piezo ignition while inside the bag still. Burning plastic isn't great but in an emergency situation or in need of fire it works.

jgourlay - 30-4-2013 at 05:05

All, thanks. I've got several ideas here I'm going to try. I'll try the thermite, and also the 'candle' idea. I'm thinking of maybe trying to make the 'candle' from a mix of magnesium shavings, lint, and tri-oxane.

Also will look at the calcium carbide.

elementcollector1 - 30-4-2013 at 05:16

Thermite is actually not a good idea - will not light if wet, and difficult to light properly in the first place. Also, assuming you do light it, it's overkill for a regular fire.
Calcium carbide is the same - much too violent a reaction for home use.

watson.fawkes - 30-4-2013 at 05:52

Don't forget one of the very most basic tools: tarpaulin, poles, and rigging to make a shed roof under which to start a fire in the first place. Everything is easier with less excess water. In my experience with youth camping, the only thing anybody carried were tents.

High surface area charcoal is a very good tinder. Make it yourself by retort pyrolysis. The retort need be nothing other than a discarded tin can. Use a side-cutting opener so that the lid fits on. Punch a hole in the top for the liberated methanol to escape. I've used bailing wire to hold to together, but a clip made from another tin can could work as well. Something the size of a tuna fish can should be fine.

Now the advantage of this method is that you can regenerate your tinder in the field. Once the fire is going, gather new tinder-shaped materials, such as conifer needles or leaf litter, put it into the retort and throw it into the fire. This isn't such a necessity for a single-night trip, but a survival rehearsal trip could well simulate the practices you'd want for a multiple-day journey.

A smallish piece of steel wire mesh can keep fuel off the ground to avoid wicking. Laying the fire on a bed of field-gathered stones would do much the same.

Blowing on a fire works much better if you focus the breath through a tube so that it's directed exactly where you want it. Aluminum tent poles aren't so common as they used to be, but I'm certain there are substitutes.

Fantasma4500 - 30-4-2013 at 05:58

this is probably not going well with the legal issues, or well it depends on where you live so anyways

electrolysis of KCl or NaCl (whereafter reacting with KCl) will yield KClO3

filter this and some crystals will be stock, when using cloth this gives something very very interesting i found out once by mistake (25x25 cm cloth piece)

it burns with a very tall dense flame!!

i thought about this for camping purposes, it ignites readily, and say 2g KClO3 or something alike run through a cloth filter could perhaps do the job too

more KClO3 more burn, and it fills almost nothing, the cloth can get abit stiff but thats not a real problem


also when trying to light a fire try to block in the heat as much as possible meaning enough air to let it burn, and make a sort of roof, the top is the most important, try to deroute the hot gasses to use as much as possible heat

then another thing that should be legal

calcium acetate with ethanol or other fuels in

calcium acetate is made my Ca(OH)2 or CaCO3 + vinegar (preferably clean) simply boiled down and when heated to ~160*C it gives off acetone vapours which is obviously flammable
combine this with another flammable liquid and you get both solid fuel relatively cheap and more fuel with less flammable liquid used
end products is CaCO3 as solid depending on purity of other fuels used

CaSO4 anh. + aluminium powder ''swiss rolls'' on youtube ive seen could work too, thermite like composition, not sure if you get good practical yields considering other possibilities

also stumbled upon another thing just yesterday:
KMnO4 powder with oil

you can mix up this stuff, and bring a storm lighter to light it, gives nice purely white flames and i guess theyre pretty hot, i havent had reason to test with my own fingers yet, basically the same as with glycerine except cheaper and storage safe as far as what i have seen

chemcam - 30-4-2013 at 07:27

Quote: Originally posted by elementcollector1  
Thermite is actually not a good idea - will not light if wet, and difficult to light properly in the first place. Also, assuming you do light it, it's overkill for a regular fire.
Calcium carbide is the same - much too violent a reaction for home use.


Do you have personal experience with thermite, igniting while still in the bag in the rain? And you have proof it wont work right? We would then have conflicting data. I almost burned my whole backyard fence down in torrential rain, its why I no longer play with thermite at home, haha.

That is why I wrote to keep it in the plastic bag and light it while still in the bag! Even though I would think a 2000 degree flame from a pen torch would dry the spot where it got wet.

Also, in an emergency situation where you are freezing your ass off would you rather have overkill for a fire-starter or do you want to be rubbing wet sticks together all night? I think calcium carbide would be cool to demonstrate for the kids there as well.

elementcollector1 - 30-4-2013 at 07:58

Would you also like to burn your face off from molten iron? Thermite, once it gets going, is pretty much uncontrollable until it ends. And in my experience, it's a stable mixture even under a blowtorch. A pen torch could possibly light it (2000 degrees what?) but if you had the pen torch, why use the thermite?
This isn't about demonstrating to the kids, it's about surviving the wilderness. Calcium carbide's nice, but unless you have a lot of it, it's not a useful source. Magnesium, pocket lint, and tinder are all reliable sources that can take a while to be used up, depending on your skill and usage.
I have only managed to ignite a thermite once in my lifetime, and even then it was insanely difficult. I have better materials now, but I have no need for a thermite recently (having no metal oxides to work with yet). Maybe our compositions differ, but I doubt that they differ so much that yours is so easy to light.
Additionally: A fire tarp is only a good idea if you set it pretty high up - recommended that it's at least 10 ft. off the ground so the plastic doesn't catch or melt.

chemcam - 30-4-2013 at 08:19

Quote: Originally posted by elementcollector1  
Would you also like to burn your face off from molten iron? Thermite, once it gets going, is pretty much uncontrollable until it ends. And in my experience, it's a stable mixture even under a blowtorch. A pen torch could possibly light it (2000 degrees what?) but if you had the pen torch, why use the thermite?
This isn't about demonstrating to the kids, it's about surviving the wilderness. Calcium carbide's nice, but unless you have a lot of it, it's not a useful source. Magnesium, pocket lint, and tinder are all reliable sources that can take a while to be used up, depending on your skill and usage.
I have only managed to ignite a thermite once in my lifetime, and even then it was insanely difficult. I have better materials now, but I have no need for a thermite recently (having no metal oxides to work with yet). Maybe our compositions differ, but I doubt that they differ so much that yours is so easy to light.


I'm not talking an entire sandwich baggy full I mean like a 2"x2" plastic bag that jewelry comes in, not too dangerous there. Oh, I say pen torch and thermite because it will take a long time to light wet wood with the torch and you may use up all the fuel. I guess it would be a bad idea to have someone use it for the first time with children around, I just thought of that.. I am used to being extremely cautious around certain things so thermite doesn't raise my hairs at all, other people may not be that way.

Eddygp - 1-5-2013 at 08:12

What about a small thermite with some cupric nitrate in too? Wonderful to start a fire with :)

Mailinmypocket - 1-5-2013 at 08:38

There's a neat trick you can do by wrapping some cotton (kept dry in a bag) with some steel wool, touching a 9v battery to the steel wool in proximity to the cotton causes the small steel filaments to get hot and ignite the cotton. There's a YouTube video on it by a youtuber called "crazyrussianhacker"

Another option would be some perchlorate or chlorate/sugar that you could mix at the time, to avoid carrying around energetic mixtures. I have lit that in rainy wet conditions (not to start fires mind you) with a small lighter many times.

Ral123 - 1-5-2013 at 08:59

That's the lamest of all. Imagine the cold outside, nasty wind, you're freezing your hands off to make preparations for the fire. You rely on a cold 9v battery(witch aren't famous for delivering high currents), that has been sitting for two years since last used, to ignite a steel wool in the cold and windy and snowy/or high humidity. At least bic lighters are predictable. Isobutane is volatile even at -10.

chemcam - 1-5-2013 at 09:49

What about the Polystyrene and Gasoline -or- Acetone mixture? That stuff lights easily and it's not an inferno (as long as there is not excess solvent!) so you won't burn your face off it you are smart about it. You would need an airtight container so the solvent doesn't evaporate, and something to spark it with obviously.

elementcollector1 - 1-5-2013 at 10:08

Ah, I think you mean napalm!

hyfalcon - 1-5-2013 at 11:25

Standard Iron Oxide/Aluminum thermite with a magnesium sparkler for ignition will give you all the heat you need to start a fire and then some. Sparklers are fairly easy to light and they WILL ignite thermite.

chemcam - 1-5-2013 at 14:32

Quote: Originally posted by hyfalcon  
Standard Iron Oxide/Aluminum thermite with a magnesium sparkler for ignition will give you all the heat you need to start a fire and then some. Sparklers are fairly easy to light and they WILL ignite thermite.


I don't know what kind of sparklers you get but the magnesium ones in my area are hard as hell to light. On the box it should say: "Requires an erupting volcano to ignite."

(edit) I did some experiments tonight with the acetone+polystyrene I suggested on the previous page, it was very windy and rainy tonight. I tried to light it with only the spark from a dead BIC lighter also I tried using pyrophoric iron, neither method worked. I had to hold a flame to it for about 1 second for ignition. The fire produced from a golf ball size lasted about 15-20 minutes, is was not a inferno but rather a steady 8-12" flame, very hot, impossible to extinguish completely. Maybe if excess solvent was present it would have worked better but I didn't test it.

[Edited on 5-2-2013 by chemcam]

Napalm Demonstration (polystyrene+acetone) Video

chemcam - 2-5-2013 at 15:19

Sorry for the double post, mods, but my previous post wouldn't allow an edit. This video is to show that napalm made by acetone and polystyrene is not a violent reaction like some people had assumed. This would be an excellent fire starter in an emergency, it is rather environmentally unfriendly so use at your discretion.

Napalm Demonstration (polystyrene+acetone)

BobD1001 - 2-5-2013 at 22:13

Here is a video detailing the many camping uses of potassium permanganate including water purification, wound sterilization, and fire starting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1eBzDiUqbk

[Edited on 3-5-2013 by BobD1001]

Fantasma4500 - 3-5-2013 at 01:05

Quote: Originally posted by Ral123  
That's the lamest of all. Imagine the cold outside, nasty wind, you're freezing your hands off to make preparations for the fire. You rely on a cold 9v battery(witch aren't famous for delivering high currents), that has been sitting for two years since last used, to ignite a steel wool in the cold and windy and snowy/or high humidity. At least bic lighters are predictable. Isobutane is volatile even at -10.


well a 9volt battery will do most definately for igniting steel wool, even normal batteries can be used for this..
also i believe that the wind would just increase the steelwools burning

Hennig Brand - 8-5-2013 at 16:56

Pine wood with a high concentration of resin in it can be very good. This is called fat wood and has very high energy content and will light and burn hot with ease when dry. It is sold commercially as well, usually with one of those ferrocerium rod fire starter spark generators. As long as the resin content is high enough it is quite resistant to water and still performs well. Small pieces of this can be carried and used to make a quick hot fire which will ignite even damp kindling. If you want to make the fat wood even easier to ignite the end (or the whole thing) can be dipped in molten sulfur. The sulfur will harden and stick to the pine wood once cooled. All it takes is a good spark or tiny ember to ignite the sulfur into a flame. I usually use a fire piston or flint and steel to get a small tinder fungus ember going, but there are many ways to get a small spark or ember (battery/steel wool, etc). The sulfur will make the transition from ember to flame very easy.

Cedar bark makes excellent tinder, it has natural flammable oils in it and easily tears/shreds up into a fibrous bundle with lots of surface area for easy ignition (this is what I use to go from glowing coal to flame usually). Even when it is pouring rain and the ground is soaked, as long as a cedar tree can be found you will have good tinder. The outer bark may be wet, but all that need be done is cut or scrap the outer wet layer(s) off and expose the inner dry layers for collection.

Dry dead grass makes wonderful tinder as it lights extremely easily, but only when it is dry obviously (not raining, or protected from rain).

Birch bark is great as a high energy fuel to generate large amounts of heat for igniting damp wood, but it is not very good for generating a flame from a coal or ember (cedar bark is much better in this respect). Save the birch bark for when you have a flame.

Of the primitive technologies flint and steel is probably the most reliable. I use primitive technologies because I find it interesting and entertaining, but the man made fire starters are probably easier to use and burn hotter.

Intergalactic_Captain - 9-5-2013 at 05:20

Now we're going back to scouts - some of the most fun I've ever had :) ... I was the only one in my troop for a few years that could reliably build one-match fires, and wound up training maybe 20 people to do the same... My teams usually won the string-burning and water-boiling competitions at the jamborees - If you've never done it, try boiling water in a paper cup over a fire, it's a real thought experiment...

As for tinder, it really depends on where you are and what time of year it is. Deciduous forest? Number one is papery bark, birch and cherry will work fine even when wet. Grass and leaves suck - Go for woody plant stems - goldenrod, garlic mustard, daisys, and wild daggas have never failed me - goldenrod can be finicky though. Evergreen forest? Even in a downpour you'll be able to at least a tiny patch of dry pine needles.

The toughest part for most people to figure out is the size progression from tinder to kindling to final size, and all the intermediate sizes necessary - If you have three guys gathering twigs, they're all gonna come back with something different, most of which you probably won't be able to use...

...That said, a few tips - Don't bother with "camping matches" - As you said, they're crap... If you can find strike-anywhere matches (kitchen matches are fine too), dip them in wax and cut the striker pad off the box - Store them in whatever manner you find safe. The matches are thicker to begin with, the striker pad much more robust, and if properly dipped in wax will burn with a much stronger flame than anything else you can buy.

...Buy your eggs in paperboard cartons - When empty, stuff them with newspaper, lint, sawdust/woodchips, whatever - Then top them off with wax or waste kitchen grease... You now have super-candles that will start just about any fire. I never used them myself, but I've seen it done many times and they really do work if you build the rest properly.

...Magnesium is quite nice, but you have to know how to do it before the necessity arises - If you've never done it, there's no way in hell you'll be able to shave the magnesium into a pile, properly situate it, then hit it with a spark in the middle of a downpour.

...And, from my cheaters handbook, carry a roadflare. A few years back I was on a roadtrip to see an old friend - At a truckstop on the way, I picked up a flare simply because it was the only place to buy one at the time... Long story short, last night there we spent the day hiking and drinking and decided to have a bonfire by the river - Torrential downpour... Couldn't get anything to catch after over an hour, so one guy ran back to the car to grab the flare - Ten minutes later we had our fire...

Trotsky - 9-5-2013 at 12:03

One time I was trout fishing, way back in a fairly remote area. I slipped and ended up getting pulled downstream around two bends- once your waders are full of water you're fucked. My creel ended up catching on a downed log and by holding onto that I managed to pull myself out. I lost my brand new glasses too.

I wasn't planning on staying overnight- it was raining lightly all day, but I ended up getting lost. At nine or ten I decided to make a fire. I ended up in a pine forest. If you look on old pine trees you can often find large sap deposits where a branch broke off or was damaged. Often there's bark covering it so you gotta look close, but within half an hour I had collected enough pine sap (pitch? What's the difference?) To make a fist sized ball. I don't remember exactly what I did but I know I mixed it up with bark and chunks of wood. Ihad acouple wooden matches left (glad I had decided to bring acigar with me or Iwouldn't have had anything) but it only took one match to get it burning and it burned like crazy. I built up a large fire over it, but I think that ball lasted for half an hour, maybe longer if some of it hadn't melted into the soil.

I dried my clothes and slept like shit, but at least I got warm and was able to cook my trout. Makeshift cooking over improvised fire was a pain in the ass but it was hot and i got something to eat.

Hennig Brand - 9-5-2013 at 16:07

Lawn grass probably does suck, but if you find the dead standing clumps of bone dry grass/hay around trees and poles etc either in old fields or on the edge of old woods roads where sun can get in a bit, this works great (done it many times). Cedar bark is the good stuff though around here and can be gotten even in the rain (if you can find cedar). There are probably other things that I am unaware of or have never tried. I have always found that the ignition temperature for birch/paper bark to be actually very high compared to birds nest/dead hay or shredded cedar bark, and it also doesn't lend itself well to breaking up into fine pieces. Also a downer is the fact that small pieces of birch bark tend to roll up and smoulder when heat is applied rather than igniting, unless of course you light it with a large heat source or actual flame. Going from a small coal or ember to actual flame is the tricky part and only certain things are suitable. There are many things that are suitable as high energy fuels which are easily lit from a flame once you have a flame and want to build up some thermal mass and get some wood going. Just my personal experience.

I guess those magnesium fire starters and manmade flint rods can generate very hot burning particles or sparks and can ignite things that would be difficult to ignite with primitive methods. You may not need to be nearly as picky when choosing tinder if you have manmade fire starting equipment, but the principles are still the same.

Edit:
I guess some of us are talking about starting a fire with matches and some without. Sarting with a flame greatly simplifies things, in that case birch/paper bark works great.


[Edited on 10-5-2013 by Hennig Brand]

Trotsky - 10-5-2013 at 15:04

Have you ever tried a fire with a pitch ball?

I think there's a video on youtube where the guy sits chunks on reindeer moss and uses a magnalium firestarter to get it going then adds larger chunks.


There are people who have made tin can gassifiers to burn wood on a small scale. They're a bit of a trick to get going right but once you do, they're really nice. Pine pitch could be gassified as well for really nice, clean and complete combustion.

Hennig Brand - 12-5-2013 at 17:16

I have burned pitch before and yes it is very flammable.

I made a wood gasifier about 7 years ago out of steel stove pipe and fittings. It was pretty basic, it had a grate at the bottom for air to be drawn through, a damper for controlling the flow of air and a gas wick made out of a soup can at the top. I fed the gasifier with wood chips, cedar IIRC. Once the gasifier got up to temperature and the draft shut mostly off, the gas coming out of the top was lit. It was a very crude set up with poor control but it made a very impressive roaring column of fire 5 or 6 feet high IIRC. The burner was brought up to temperature using normal aerated combustion, then the air flow was reduced and the wood chips burned with much less air flow. It was neat to see the gas being produced a foot or so below where it was being burned. Even if you look at a log burning in a fireplace there is a small space between where the wood is gasified and where the flame starts. The truth is the stove pipe gasifier had a lot of small air leaks, but it still proved the concept. I guess the Germans gasified wood during WWII using pyrolysis as well and used the wood gas produced to run vehicles which normally ran on gasoline. Sounds like a lot more trouble than it’s worth though.


[Edited on 13-5-2013 by Hennig Brand]

12AX7 - 12-5-2013 at 19:00

Hmm, KMnO4 + glycerin seconded. Haven't used it myself so I can't speak from authority unfortunately, but it seems like a good idea.

Also second bringing a tarp and such. You'll never get anywhere if you're starting with a raindrop-sized flame, which can be put out instantly by a single, well-placed rain drop.

Once you have tents set up, you could do worse than starting the fire inside. Sparks may fall off the tinder, so make sure they don't start unintended fires. Yes you may wind up with burn marks and holes, but you can patch those when you get back to civilization. Small price to pay and all that.

For industrial-sized sources, a car battery (you probably won't be lugging one around, but say your car broke down..) can be used as a welder to make big gloppy balls of molten metal. Preferably, disconnect the battery cables and find a piece of steel wire or strip, that way you have something to hold on to (the cable) that won't get hot (it's beefy copper) while the steel "rod" burns away.

Tim

elementcollector1 - 12-5-2013 at 19:50

KMnO4 and glycerin seems to take a while, IMO... but it lights pretty reliably.

chemcam - 12-5-2013 at 20:42

Quote: Originally posted by elementcollector1  
KMnO4 and glycerin seems to take a while, IMO... but it lights pretty reliably.


Yeah, KMnO4 and Glycerin does take a while to react and another problem is if the KMnO4 gets wet it won't work. I still swear by polystyrene and acetone though, burns for a long time, way cheaper than magnesium or oxidizers and you probably have it in your house now.

Patiamiyam - 12-5-2013 at 22:46

A friend told me that he used to carry a couple of tubes of 'Liquid Nails' with the caulking gun (you could do without the 'gun' if you had a knife to cut it open) I think the majority of the 'construction adhesives' in tubes are latex and/or water thinned, though. Look for one that says "Extremely Flammable". He smoked like a 'train' so he was never without numerous lighters, but waterproof matches in a waterproof container would be needed too.
A interesting short story from Jack London 'To build a Fire' http://www.jacklondons.net/buildafire.html. (that's the whole story) The main point of that short story (aside from all the prep the guy did to build a fire in the wilderness) was that he built the fire under a tree with snow on it, and just when he was taking off his soaked clothing to dry, the snow fell, and put the fire out.

A great all round book is 'How to stay alive in the woods' Bradford Angier. I looked it up on Amazon.com and saw a used copy (w/0 shipping) for $3.61. And from my scouting days 'The Field Book-for boys and men' (THAT dates the book doesn't it?)
It has 12 pages devoted to starting fires, clearing a space around it (Old guy I used to live next to said that his brothers and him were out in the woods in Arkansas, and actually started a forest fire, ACCIDENTALLY. They weren't caught, but he sure remembered that day.

Patiamiyam - 13-5-2013 at 00:43

This is chapter 10 of the book "How to stay alive in the woods' by Bradford Angier.
I copied it from a pdf ( http://ia601208.us.archive.org/3/items/HowToStayAliveInTheWo...) and converted it to Word or open document or something. It's not perfect formatting but you can download the entire book above.
I guess the OpenOffice.org provides text recognizing (but it's not perfect) The document doesn't copy the illustrations, either.
The imperfect formatting seems to make the book look like a old, old book, but my copy is just a 20-30-40 year old paperback. Apparently, the book was also "originally published as Living Off The Country"

Chapter l0
Facts Of lighting Fires
Few Acts are so immediately indicative of an individual's
woodsmanship as the way he goes about lighting a fire,
especially without the help of matches.
For fires can be so ignited by any of us, and if one method
does not succeed there is always another, but the very fact
that success is often elusive nd to be achievedo nly laboriously
is all the more reason for exerting every reasonable
precaution always to have dry matches at hand.
What ilIatches to Catry
If we are going to make an effort to have matches readily
available whenever in the wilderness, it follows that we may
as well make a point of carrying the most practical matches
for such purposes, and these are the long wooden variety.
Paper matches are too often an abomination in the bush.
If we ever do happen to find ourselves in the Silent Places
with nothing more substantial, we will want to bend every
effort toward keeping them as intact from dampnessa SP os'
sible; and frOm the effects of perspiration as well as from
outer TvetnessW. rapping the folder in soinethings ucha s foil
or a handy bit of plastic will serve to protect heads and stems
as well as the integral striking surface.
107
108 | How to Stay Alive in the Woods
What About Match Cases
A waterproofm atch casew ill hetp to assuret hat a store
of matches carried on the person will remain dry, particuiarly
if this container is also unbreakable. For several years I carried
one made of some hard black composition, and then one
afternoon while taking Arctic grayling on a Black Gnat I
slipped in midstream. What happened to that match holder
was one of those inevitabilities that, as soon as they do occur,
you wonder why you never considered before.
The most practical waterproof mateh case on the market
that I have been able to find is the very well known one long
put out by the Marble Arms and Manufacturing Company
and retailed for less than one dollar. Any match case for
woods use should have some provision by which it can be
fastened safely to the person, and l\{arble's is built with a
mobile metal ring at the top through which it can be pinned
or tied. The lid is attached in such a way that it can be unscrewed
easily when the hands are cold or slippery and yet
ean not be mislaid.
With any match holder, another danger to eschew is the
accidental igniting of the matches within. That I once managed
to accomplish also by ioo carelessly screwing on the
unyielciing cap of that sarne composition case, on the other
edge of the continent this time on the Southwest Miramichi
River" The sound \ilas tike that of a gun going off. It was
after noticing my right hand was blackened and that the
particular batch of matches was charred that I realized what
had happened. The black washed ofi all right, not revealing
even a burn, and I had more matches.
Since then, even though the top of Marble's waterproof
nratch box has a protective rubber linirg, I have been careful
to stow about hatf with the butts up and to keep the heads
of all as much apart as possible. It is thus possible to pack
away more, too.
Ways to Maintain Reserves
If you spend much time back
like most of our acquaintances
of beyond, you probably do
who are so privileged and
Facts Of Lighting Fires | 109
scatter several watertight containers filled with matches
throughout your duftel for possible emergency needs. You
may also take the additional precaution of either sealing these
holders or encasing the matches themselves with paraffin.
Because caution becomes second nature when one continues
to follow wilderness trails-where a misstep that in civilization
would be only temporarily annoying can, with no help at
hand, totter one on the edge of disaslss-]ou likely aggee it
is no more than pnrdent to carry an extra filled waterproof
case on your person.
The Prineiples of Fire
There is no single way by which the campfire must be
built. The principles, however, are always the sarne.
Firewood does not burn directly, of course. Rather it is a
gas driven from the wood by heat that, in combination with
the oxygen in the air, flames.
We have to start, therefore:
( 1) with fuel inflammable enough,
(2) to give off gas sufficiently combustible,
(3) to be lit by the heat we are able to concentrate on it.
This burning kindling, in turn, must be amply hot and
Iong-lived to release and inflame more and more gas from
progressively larger amounts of fuel.
The heat necessary for the initial reaction is ordinarily ob.
tained most convenienfly by strikin g a match.
il,Iaking Fire By Striking Spark
Campfires can be lit without matches, iust as game animals
can be bagged without guns, cleaned without knives, and
cooked without utensils. For those who have never yet had to
resort to primitive measures, suppose we try the direct spark
technique which is the easiest of the ancient methods.
That a suitable spark can be made by striking the back of
a hunting knife against a piece of flint is well known by
everyone who has read of the pioneer Lrses of flint and steel.
Not so generally realized, except by those of more experi'
mental natures, is that other hard stones such as quartz,
iasper, iron pyrites, agate, and native iade will serve instead
of the traditional flint.
110 | IIow to Stay Alive in the Woods
Nor need a knife or even steel be used. hon, for example,
will do instead. Ftuthermore, if only by the process of trial
and error' two rocks can generally be found that when strnck
together with a brisk stroking motion will grve oft sparks. The
familiar foofs gold, iron pyrites otherwise named because of
the sometimes exciting yellow flecks it contains, is a favorite
in this respect 4rnong Eskimos many of whom carry two fistsize
chunks with them.
rf you happen to be by a down plane, sparks for starting a
fire may be secured by scratching together the negative and
positive wires from a live storage battery; suggesting possiblc
methods of procedue whenever electrical power is at hand.
WE must spread a preferably generous wad of tinder to
catch the sparks, so that when these shower into the bed of
hishly inflammable matter, the area can be blown to a glow
and then to flnme. If the tinder is placed in the wind, natgral
air currents may be enough to take carc of this step.
Once tinder is in flames, all we have to do is shove it under
fuel already laid as for any outdoor fire.
Tinders are Numerour
Tinder is highly combustible substance in which a spark
can be bloum into flame, and innumerablE materials of this
sort have been poputar in different localities since rnan came
groping out of the cold of fireless eons. Many of these tinders
were caried' and some are still borne, in special containers
such as tinderboxes, pouches, horns, ord other characteristis
receptacles.
Birchbark can be detached in the thinnest of layers and
these shredded to make tinder. The barks of some of the
cedars can be similarly utilized. Dry moss, lichen, grss, and
dead evergreen needles are among the additional substances
pulverized for tinder. Other suitable dry materials so used are
obtained from nests.
The dry fuzz from pussy willows is a well-knoryn tinder.
so is wood which has dry rotted and can be nrbbed to &
powder. A number of mushrooms and other fungi are dehydrated
for such a purpose. The desiccated pith from the inside
Facts Of Lighting Fires / 111
of elderberry shoots was employed by some Indians. So was
down from milkweed, fireweed, and IikE vegetation.
A handful of very dry pine needles often works. You san
use the flufi of the so-called cotton grass, that of the cattails,
and the downy heads of such flowers as mature goldenrod.
Divers dry vegetable fibers serve as tinder. So does the
powdery dry droppings of bats. So does the down found in
some nests and on the underneath parts of some birds.
Lighting Fires with Water and Ice
A small magnifying glass is a convenient device with which
to start a fire when there is sufficient sunlight. Similar lenses,
such as those used in telescopic sights and binoculars, are
likewise used. A piece of ordinary glass, perhaps from a
broken jar, sometimes possessesin its distortions sufficient
qualities of magnification.
The magnifying properties of water can'be capitalized upon
for fire nnaking bn for example:
(a) holding the crystals from two watches or pocket compasses
of about the same size back to back,
(b) filling the space between with water,
(c) directing this makeshift entarging lens so as to colrverge
the rays of the sun in a point sharp enough to start
tinder glowing.
It is possible with ingenuity to devise other such irn.
provisations.
A satisfactory lens can also be fashioned by experimentally
shaving, and then smoothing with the warm hand, a piece of
clear ice.
Starting Blaze with F'irearm
Pry the bullet from the cartridge, fust loosening the case
if you want by laying it on a log and tapping the neck all
arouncl with the back of your knife. If you are carrying a
shotgun, uncrimp the top of the shell and remove the wadding
ancl projectiles. Have the campfire laid with a good bed of
tinder beneath. Pour some of the powder over this tinder.
tfg I llow-to Stay Alive in the Tgoods
Stuft a small bit of dry frayed cloth into what remains of the
load. Fire the weapon straight up into the air. The r?g, if it
is not already bruning when it falls nearby, should be smoldering
sufficiently so that when pressed into the tinder it can
be quickly blown into flame.
Obtaining Fire With Bow and Drill
Fires bave long been made throughout the world from
glowing embers obtained by the combined use of bow, drill,
and fire board. Although the tecbnique is simple, considerable
diligence and cfiort are required, for its application
can be very laborious, Once you've started, in other words,
don't become too easily discor,rragedb ut keep going.
You'll need a bown with a thong long enough to toop
around the dry stick that is to serve as a drill. You'll need a
socket with which to hold the drill against s hollow in the
fire board.
By moving the bow back and forth and so rotating the drill
in the fire board, you cause so much friction that a spark
starts glowing in tinder amassed to catch it. This spark you
blow into flame with which the campfire is lighted.
Socket
The only use of the socket is to hold the drill in place
while the latter is being turned. The socket, which for this
purpose is held in one hand, can be an easily grasped knot
of wood with a hollow shaped in its underneath. It can be
one of the smooth stones,w ith a slick depressionw orn in one
side, often found near water.
The socket may be oiled or waxed to allow the drill, whose
upper end should offer as little resistancea ^sp ossible,t o spin
more freely.
What Wood to Use
Among the North American woods that are favored for
making fire by friction are the poplar, tamarack, basswood,
Facts Of Lishting Fires I tlg
yuccao balsam fir, red cedar, white cedar, cypressr cottonwood,
elm, linden, and willow. The drill and the fire board
are both often made of a siagle one of the above woods, although
this is not always the case.
Frc. 35. Fire-making bow and drill. The parts are, top to
bottom: sockets, dri[, fire board, and bow.
The Drill
The ddll rnay well be a straight and well seasoned stick
from one-fourth to three-fourths of an inch in diameter and
some twelve to fifteen inches long. The top end should be as
smoothly rounded as possible so as to incur a minimum of
friction. The lower end, where on the other hand a maximum
of friction is desired, is more blunt.
A longer drill, perhaps one nearly a yard in length, is
sometimes rotated between the palms rather than by a bow.
The hands, maintaining as much downward pressure as Possible,
are rubbed back and forth over the drill so as to spin
it as strongly and as swiftly as possible. When they slip too
low, they must be shifted back to the top with as little delay
W
k _ _ , - r - S
- >/2
II4 | How to Stay Alive in the Woods
in rotatation as possible. The method, as can be appreciated
once you try it, is not as eftective as using a bow and socket.
Fire Board,
The dimensions of the fire board, which may be split out
of a dry branch, can be a matter of convenience. The board,
say, may be about one inch thick and three or four inches
wide. It should be long enough to be held under the foot,
Using a knife or perhaps a sharp stone, start a hole about
three-fourths of an inch in from the edge of the board. En
large this hole, thus fitting it and the end of the drill at the
sarne time, by turning the drill with the bow as later
described.
Then cut a notch from the edge of the fire board through
to the side of this cup. This slot, which is usually made wider
and deeper at the bottom, will permit the hot black powder
that is produced by the drilling to fall as quickly as possible
into tinder masseCa t the bottom of the notch.
And the Bow
The bow is sometimes made from an easily handled stick
such as those used to propel arrows. Other peoples, believing
that the bow should have no resiliency, employ a stout sec'
tion of branch with a bend already in it.
One end of the bow may have a natural crotch to facilitate
the tying of the thong. The bow may merely be notcted for
this purpose, however, or perhaps drilled if heavy' enough
not to split. The bow string, which may be anything from
a shoe lace to a twisted length of rawhide, is tied at both
encls so as to leave enough slack to allow its being twisted
once around the drill"
Llsing Bow ancl, Drill
The various components when ready will roughly resenrble
the set shown in the drawing, They are used as illustrated,
the campfire first being made ready to ignite.
Facts Of Lighting Fires I r15
The tinder is bedded under the slot in the fire board. If
you're right handed, you kneel on your right knee and place
the left foot as solidly as possible on the fire board.
Take the bow in the right hand, looping the string over
the drill. The drill is set in the cavity prepared in the fire
board.
FrG. 36. Using fire bow and drill.
Pressure from the socket, which is grasped in the left hand,
holds the drill in position. You. czur gip the socket more
steadily, you will probably findo if you will keep your left
vnrist against your left shin and hug the left leg with that
arm. Fress down on the drill, but not enough to slow it,
when you cornmence twirling the drill by sawing back and
forth with the bow.
Now start drawing the bow smoothly back and forth in
sweeps as long as the string will conveniently permit. Maybe
you've dropped a few gains of sand into the cup to increase
friction. At any rate, the hole will eventua[y colnmence to
smoke. Work the bow even faster now, never stopping the
swift even action. Press down more assertively on the driil.
Lighting the Fire
Hot black powder will begin to be ground out into the
'inder. Keep on drilting, for the heartier a spark you can
116 | How to Stay Alive in the Woods
start glowing there, the quicker you'll be able to blow it into
flame.
IVhen everything seems right, gently remove the drill.
Breath softly into the slot until you can actually see a gleam.
Then pick up both fire board and tinder if that is easiest.P ress
the tinder carefully around the incandescence. When the
spark definitely begins spreading, get the board out of the
way so that you can fan the heat more freely. Carefully con'
tinue feeding oxygen to the area until the tinder bursts into
flame.
Natives often carry fire so won, igniting for this purpose
dry spongryw ood.t hat, tike the punk sold for setting off fire'
worksn smolders over long periods of time. Tbis fire stick
they transport with them, ready to be blown into flame when
the next blaze is readY to light.




[Edited on 13-5-2013 by Patiamiyam]

chemcam - 13-5-2013 at 12:52

On the first page of this thread several people, including myself, were talking down to the method of a 9v battery on fine steel wool. People said if the battery was weak and very cold it would not work. Well, today I had a 9v ready for disposal when I remembered this thread, I put it in the freezer, and then tried to ignite the wool. To my surprise it worked very efficiently. I went ahead and recorded it for my personal collection but if you don't believe it here is the video.

Steel Wool Ignition by Weak, Frozen 9v Battery

P.S. It gets red hot pretty much instantly but takes a couple seconds to fully develop all over, so keep watching it's only 30 seconds long. I conclude this may be one of the better ideas.

12AX7 - 13-5-2013 at 15:37

I haven't had problems with steel wool myself (burning it, not with lighting a fire with it), the fine stuff burns like crazy. Should be able to light it with a lens, assuming you had a bright sunny day of course.

Tim

Dr.Bob - 14-5-2013 at 10:12

My favorite campfire starting method for wet conditions was sodium peroxide. It is a yellow powder that comes in a metal screw top can. Take a piece of tissue, or even a wet paper towel and just sprinkle some sodium peroxide on it. If it is not damp yet, just spit on it. The paper will burst into flames within a few seconds. Then just toss on some kindling. The water reacts with the NaO2 to form NaOH, O2, and heat, which will start most damp materials on fire just fine. Just keep the can well sealed and don't spill it in your lap. I used this years ago and a few boy scouts that were there just could not believe it.

Hennig Brand - 15-5-2013 at 03:56

Waxed paper torn up into fine strips makes great tinder, especially mixed with a bit of shredded cedar bark. It is very energy dense and has a low ignition temperature. Hamburger wrappers can be found all over the place and are usually very thin wax paper perfect for fire starting (at least around here). It is also not affected by water really and any surface water can be just wiped off.

124563 - 26-6-2013 at 19:55

Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid  
Odd- I've always found magnesium to be a pain in the neck to light.

I've heard that one can make a kind of candle with wax and dryer lint- the lint acts as a fantastic wick and the wax burns like blazes. But I've never tried it, so your milage may vary.
you can make a candle with simply lighting a candle

ElectroWin - 27-6-2013 at 11:32

Quote: Originally posted by jgourlay  

Scenario: temperate forest, torrential downpour, wet, shivering, very cold, dispirited group, muddy ground, lots of wood, either 'living' (wet) or semi-rotting, and nothing dry. No dry grass, no dry leaves, nothing both dry and un-rotten. Very, very difficult to get your firestarting supplies from a pocket to the ground without them getting soaked. In this scenario (this weekend!!) getting the fire started DURING THE DOWNPOUR is critical for both physiological and psychological reasons.

What worked: the absolute tiniest of twigs, a softball size glob of dry lint, sparklers, forced air (LOTS of blowing), magnesium "assist".


i have faced this scenario in Temagami wilderness, and without a fire it would have been a very cold night in mid-august, when there is often frost.

rotting wood will burn, even when wet. the idea is, if the cells are broken by rot, then a large branch, even sopping wet, will be dried by the heat from the fire below it, then catch easily. never use green wood.

if the downpour is torrential, you will want to
protect the embers and kindling from getting any more rain on them, so someone might hold a tarp above the fire place as you light it, until it gets going.

yes, lay out the smallest twigs, and the next smallest, in-order, all the way up to finger thickness, and get ready to put them on slowly enough that they will not choke the air, and soon enough so they will dry from the heat below.

iirc we had a magnesium bar with a striker.. and we found some fibrous, rotting bark that would do as tinder. squeeze excess water out, and fluff it, keeping it protected from the rain.

you lay out a bit of the still somewhat damp tinder, (of course drier is better) take a knife and scrape a few filings of Mg, and ignite immediately. blow as needed.

dont bother trying to store Mg filings. just use them immediately after scraping from the bar.

http://www.amazon.com/Magnesium-Fire-Starter-Flint-Striker/d...

PickledPackratParalysis - 28-6-2013 at 10:26

I have those magnesium blocks for camping/survival and I hate 'em! The flint stick on the top is the only part I use.... the rest just goes to waste as I don't have a good way to light it! Even using a file to shave it off takes forever. I have started a fire before with the bow/drill method, and that has been easier than getting the d@^n magnesium to burn!
Lighters are great if you have them, matches work fine but have some drawbacks... the most durable fire starter is preferably a large metal match (ferro rod), and the bic lighter/blow-lighter thingy's are what works best when they're working.
Birthday candles are nice to hold a flame, even in the damp... and I hear a crayon makes a great short-burn candle for these uses. Also a long piece of cotton rope soaked in molten wax or petroleum jelly is great... just cut a piece off to get the fire going!

If you want to see extended discussion on these topics by the survival pros, go to

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/forum.php

Great place to get ideas from people who live in Alaska and places like that and start fires in the remote wilderness.

Ral123 - 28-6-2013 at 11:04

A dedicated BIC lighter and a steel bottle of alcohol. In case they are not needed, they can find other uses. After all, is there a pyromaniac without a lighter?

Morgan - 28-6-2013 at 12:30

I found the non-serrated side of the hacksaw length provided with my Harbor Freight Mg block works if you scrape on the edges of the magnesium fire starter. When scraped flat against a side I got nowhere. And after scraping the edge for a bit you can move to either side of the edge and get it to produce shavings as well. A few minutes of this or sooner with rapid scraping, a good fluffy pile of magnesium curls can be had.
And from this a rake of the serrated side of the blade against the ferro could easily ignite the pile on the first try.
But yes, it seems like there might be a better way still undiscovered to light a fire with less energy expended/to perfect some pre-existing devices.
Just now I tried angling the smooth side of the hacksaw blade toward me and dragging it which then bit into the metal enough to grind metal from the narrow flat side of the block. And the shavings lit on the third spark.

[Edited on 28-6-2013 by Morgan]

Solomon - 28-6-2013 at 18:40

sodium nitrate, sugar, steel wool, and a 9 volt battery!

Morgan - 28-6-2013 at 20:24

Maybe a vial of silver nitrate, bic lighter, and a magnifying lens situated on/ built into this device would be nice just to be ready in any event. They really get into survival options. I liked the magnesium pencil shapener feature. Carry some bullets and matches with you too. ha
Mag-Na-Fire Review
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVpQquGMO74#t=2m30s

Xring1968 - 1-7-2013 at 20:10

This is my first post here but the method we have used for everything from our deck fire place to camp fires is to heat paraffin wax to around 200*F and drowned small (2") pinecones in it for about a minute in a wire basket. Then shake off the excess wax and spread them out on brown paper to dry. They will light with even a paper match and burn for some time with a great deal of heat. They also store fine in a plastic bag, wont poison your food or stink up your gear, can't get wet no matter the conditions, and last but not least the TSA won't poach them out of your checked bag if you are flying.
Hope this helps

[Edited on 2-7-2013 by Xring1968]

Solomon - 1-7-2013 at 20:23

Ammonium perchlorate and a blowtorch:D!

<!-- bfesser_edit_tag -->[<a href="u2u.php?action=send&username=bfesser">bfesser</a>: removed excessive emoticons]

[Edited on 7/9/13 by bfesser]

IrC - 3-7-2013 at 19:40

Has anyone considered soaking a cloth in molten wax? Possibly beforehand mixing a minor amount of KNO3 and/or Hexamethylenetetramine (or together) into the wax, then after letting the material drip off and cool rolling it up using say meat wrapping paper. This would light with a Bic easily and burn fairly well assuming you set up your wood and kindling tinder properly. The cloth would burn even after it had been wet, long enough to both dry out and ignite the tender. Lightweight, easy and it would seem safe to store folded up in a backpack taking up little space in storage. Just a thought experiment I'm having on the fly but I see no reason this would not be a great waterproof fire starter.

ElectroWin - 8-7-2013 at 12:06

yeah, paraffin wax is good for that

http://www.chicaandjo.com/2008/05/20/make-your-own-firestart...

Motherload - 8-7-2013 at 12:21

I just carry a pack of Hexamine fuel tabs and a couple of BIC lighters..
Whether or not I can build a fire ..... I can still cook my food in a can.
Hexamine burns slow and hot enough to set damp wood on fire with bark etc.

hyfalcon - 9-7-2013 at 03:35

I don't know exactly what's in it, but I sure would like to find out.

http://www.disasternecessities.com/product/CL%20S090

Followup

jgourlay - 8-1-2014 at 12:18

Okay gents, thanks for all the suggestions!!! I've landed on 'candles' as follows:

1. Case of the 'candle' is a toilet paper tube
2. Thin parafin 'cap' poured into one end
3. 'candle' is filled 3/4 of the way up with magnesium shavings densely packed in and 'filled' with melted trioxane.
4. Once that is cool, then comes a layer (1/8 height) of a 75%/25% by volume of potassium permangate and mangesium shavings.
5. Cap with a layer of parafin.

Ignite by standing on end, permanganate end up. Shove a chopstick sized stick into the end, about 1/3 way down. Cover with a leaf to protect hole from rain. Build a your entire teepee around this, but leave a hole big enough to reach your fist into near the candle top. When built, reach in and squirt some glycerin into the hole.

Stand back. Stand way way way way WAAAAAAY back.

This will light a fire even if all the wood has sat soakign ina 5 gallon bucket of water for a week.

Hennig Brand - 8-1-2014 at 17:50

High concentration moonshine.

A little highly concentrated moonshine/ethanol poured on a tissue, paper towel, cloth, etc is very easily lit even by weak sparks. I tried it one day when I was looking for things to light with an old fashioned flint and steel. You can also drink your fire starter which will help make you feel warmer and improve your outlook if you can't get the fire started. :D

Fenir - 8-1-2014 at 18:17

You could theoreticly make matches by combining potassium perchlorate, sulphur, and antimony trisulphide. With a few drops of gum arabic you could stick the mixture to sticks. The resultant match would light with friction.

roXefeller - 9-1-2014 at 08:09

Quote: Originally posted by jgourlay  

3. 'candle' is filled 3/4 of the way up with magnesium shavings densely packed in and 'filled' with melted trioxane.


Are you saying that the Mg is dispersed in melted trioxane or that the cast trioxane is sitting above the dense packing of Mg?