Sciencemadness Discussion Board - MAP PRO as a starting buildblock in home chemistry

MAP PRO as a starting buildblock in home chemistry

plante1999 - 28-5-2013 at 18:11

MAP PRO gas is made out of propylene. It can be baugth for 10$ per pound without the taxes. This is quite cheap if compared to other hobby chemicals. Because propylene contain a double bound, it is fairly reactive. If it was of me, I would start wit ethylene, but due to its low availability for the home chemist, it would be hard to start with, considering its preparation from ethanol need quite a bit of apparatus.

Here will be started my journey to complex organic chemical, from industrial precursor. Some precursor can be considered as rare, but in later post, there preparation will be disclosed.

Propylene oxide and 1-2 dichloropropane are the first tier of industrial propylene chemistry.

As a test run, I made 1-2 dibromopropane, however, soon I will make the dichloro variant.

The setup was made as in the picture 1 and 3ml of bromine added. Then the minimal flow of propylene was passed in the bromine with a glass tube. In the original 0.3 ml of bromine try, PVC was used, but it dissolved in the product. After 10 minutes, a clear liquid with a smell which I already smelled, but was not able to put my finger on it. I would say it smell isopropyl alcohol-alkanes. Yield was 4 ml with bad cooling

Next preparation: 1-2 dichloropropane and 1-chloro-2-propanol/2-chloro-1-propanol

Pictures:

[Edited on 29-5-2013 by plante1999]

[Edited on 29-5-2013 by plante1999]

plante1999 - 30-5-2013 at 17:25

1,2 dichloropropane

I would have weight the map pro bottle if I had a large enough scale, but it was not the case.

Chlorine was generated using hydrochloric acid and TCCA. The map gas was regulated to compensate for chlorine flow fluxuation.

The glass set up was very rudimentary, due to lack of liebig condenser 14/20, a water pump, and 14/18 thermometer. And ice bath was made arround the flask and filled with propylene gas, then TCCA was added to diluted (15%) hydrochloric acid, a fog and some condensation imediatly appeared. The glass adapter where the two gas mixed was extremly hot but the cooling bath did a good job. hydrochloric acid refill were made in the flask time to time, and after 1 hour the experiment was stopped.

During the experiment, when the propylene gas flow was too fast, some fumes could get out of the flask, and indicated me to slow the flow of propylene.

The yield was 53 g of 1,2 dichloropropane with some water condensation in it.

Costs:
HCl: 0.35 CAD
TCCA: 1 CAD
Propylene: Unknow, but approximatly 0.65 CAD

Total: 2.00 CAD for 53g (about 50ml)

Which bring the cost to 20$ per 500 ml (approx)

Hopefully, someone find this interesting... Next preparations should be propylene oxide and 1,2 diaminopropane (maybe propylene glycol)

Pictures:

Justin Blaise - 30-5-2013 at 22:13

Very interesting. Do you plan on purifying the product by distillation? The MSDS for map pro gas says it only contains propene and propane, so perhaps just drying the liquid is sufficient for good purity.

What is your plan for making propylene oxide? Do you plan on starting with propene, a chloropropanol, or something else?

plante1999 - 30-5-2013 at 23:33

Not distillation, due to lack of material, but it will be washed from possible HCl and drying it with K2CO3. MAPP gas used to contain methylacetylene, but it is not the case anymore, the main impurity is propane, which is fairly unreactive in these conditions.

For the propylene oxide, chlorine will be passed in water with propylene to make chloropropanol, minimal amount of water will be added, and the mixture distilled with Calcium oxide or sodium hydroxide.

The is possibility of dropping the price of 1,2 chloropropane greatly by using different mean of generating chlorine, it could easily drop to 6.50 $ / 500 ml.

I will see if I can put my paper diagram to something of interest on the computer.

That was easier than I tough, however I was using a trial, does anyone know a good free program to make diagrams?

PS: There is a small mistake, it should be both diaphragm. And not one membrane.

[Edited on 31-5-2013 by plante1999]

[Edited on 31-5-2013 by plante1999]

[Edited on 31-5-2013 by plante1999]

[Edited on 31-5-2013 by plante1999]

garage chemist - 31-5-2013 at 03:23

Very interesting that you have propylene readily available from the hardware store. I was under the impression that the MAPP gas cartridges contained either methylacetylene-propadiene mixture (the original MAPP gas) or some kind of mixture which may or may not contain propylene. How can you be sure that you're using pure propylene?

On the MAPP gas cartridges in my country it says "Propylene-Mixture". No further information is available on the manufacturer's website.

I think I should condense a portion of our MAPP gas product in a cold trap and then take a boiling curve with a thermometer while it boils off again. If this is actually pure propylene, which would boil at a constant temperature of -48°C it would be great.
Propylene makes an excellent refrigerant for a single stage compressor cooling system, with both higher volumetric refrigeration capacity and lower attainable temperatures than propane.

plante1999 - 31-5-2013 at 03:55

The purity is similar to laboratory grade chem:

http://www.worthingtoncylinders.com/Libraries/MSDS_Sheets/WC...

You may want to check for MAP-PRO(tm).

garage chemist - 31-5-2013 at 04:07

I'd really like to get a cylinder of this propylene. We don't have the gas from this manufacturer here (Germany), we only have Rothenberger cartridges which are made from aluminium:
http://www.rothenberger.com/produkte/rothenberger/verbinden-...
I should ask the manufacturer for the safety data sheet on this.
In Austria, they have the steel MAPP gas cylinders which are similar to yours.

If you lived in Europe then I could fill some of my ethylene into a small cylinder and send it to you.

ScienceSquirrel - 31-5-2013 at 04:39

The Benzomatic MAPP Pro gas is essentially pure propene, you might be able to order one off eBay or Amazon and get it shipped to Germany

http://www.bernzomatic.com/subcat.html?id=4

garage chemist - 31-5-2013 at 04:53

I found the MSDS for the Rothenberger MAPP stuff and it contains 10-25% isobutane in addition to propylene, so this is worthless as a refrigerant. They probably added the isobutane to lower the vapor pressure of the mixture sufficiently to permit filling into aluminium cylinders instead of steel.

There are two additional sorts of MAPP gas being sold on german ebay.
One is from Airgas Inc. and constitutes a complex mixture of propylene, methylacetylene, propadiene, propane, butane and so on.

The other seems to be the MAP PRO gas which is pure propylene. I'm asking the seller for the MSDS.

ScienceSquirrel - 31-5-2013 at 05:27

The original MAPP Pro was a mixture of propyne and propadiene.
It burnt very hot indeed when mixed with oxygen and was used as a substitute for acetylene.

Mildronate - 31-5-2013 at 05:36

Is there other brands in my country local shops i had only seen propane/butane for soldering?

Intergalactic_Captain - 31-5-2013 at 07:19

The original MAPP was an tautomomeric clusterfuck - methylacetylene/propane/propadiene... No clue on the manufacturing process, but it was mainly a methylacetylene/propadiene mess in a bottle. Definitely burned hotter than the current mapp-pro crap on the shelves now.

...That said, the current "MAPP" gas you're lilely to find is going to be mapp/pro (in the US at least)... Much larger proportion of propane versus the interesting gases - And a much more useless flame when it comes to what propane vs MAPP is supposed to be used for...

...Plant, I find this pretty interesting - Not many (here at least) have actually experimented with MAPP gas... The only thing I've done with it chemically was an attempt at a mapp vs. acetylene AgNO3 double salt which never worked - And it seems that Axt is the only one here who ever even attempted that much. I applaud your attempts - I don't know what your plan is, but I'd like to believe it's more of a "what can I do with x" type scenario - Cool shit, needs to be characterized beyond a the smell test though, for all anyone knows you may have just added a new tool to the amateur organic toolkit - or not... Tis the way the game is played...

plante1999 - 31-5-2013 at 08:42

Mildronate, the bottle is yellow, thats the best tip I can give you.

Well, I'm mostly planning to make valuable lab chem with simple labware, and common reagent. I have an interest in making a schiff base. At the moment there is about 12 derivative of propylene I have planned. If I'm apple to find some ammonium molybdate cheaply I will also try ammooxidation of propylene to acrylonitrile (and some HCN, that will be recovered in methanol sol. of KOH).

Now that it is propylene, silver salt is impossible, and possibly not energetic like Axt salt. I believe copper I form complex with it tough. I should make copper I chloride to test. At least the mixture is purer than when I contained methylacetylene.

@Garage chemist:

Sad, I don't live near germany, but thanks anyway!

Good luck for your propylene quest!

ScienceSquirrel - 31-5-2013 at 09:04

These are the UK ones from Benzomatic;

Blue oxygen
Red propane
Yellow Propene

http://www.bernzomatic.com/subcat.html?id=4

[Edited on 31-5-2013 by ScienceSquirrel]

Magpie - 31-5-2013 at 09:05

Quote: Originally posted by plante1999

If I'm apple to find some ammonium molybdate cheaply I will also try ammooxidation of propylene to acrylonitrile (and some HCN, that will be recovered in methanol sol. of KOH).

I have made ammonium molybdate from the mineral molybdenite. I will tell how in a separate thread.

Thank you for pointing out the OTC availability of high grade propylene!

woelen - 31-5-2013 at 10:46

In Europe we can buy Rothenberger Map/Pro gas. This is 99.5% propylene and 0.5% propane:

http://ebookbrowse.com/rothenberger-map-pro-gas-data-sheet-a...

This gas is supplied in a standard cylinder with CGA 600 outlet. There are multiple companies, selling these cylinders. One cylinder is fairly large and bulky. It contains 400 grams (I think almost 600 ml in liquid form) of the gas mix. Such a cylinder has a price between 15 and 20 euros. This is affordable, 400 grams of the gas goes a long way.

Unfortunately I cannot find simple CGA 600 regulators. The only thing I can find are complete torches, which can be connected to a CGA 600 socket and these torches are expensive (EUR 50 at least, the better ones close to EUR 100).

You have to be careful not to buy the Rothenberger MAPP gas, you really need to buy MAP/PRO. The MAPP gas is somewhat more dense (a cylinder with this gas holds just over 450 grams of gas) and this is a mix of all kinds of gases. These MAPP gas cylinders also are yellow and also have a CGA 600 outlet. You can easily see the difference, the Map/Pro cylinders have the text "MAP/PRO" in big letters on them, the others have the text "MAPP" on them.

If someone knows a source for affordable CGA 600 regulators, then I would be really happy and then I'll order such a Rothenburger Map/Pro cylinder.

unionised - 31-5-2013 at 11:11

Whatever the gas is, and whatever you plan to do with it, get a suck-back trap.

If the reagent- say bromine- ends up in the cylinder and corrodes it you have a nasty surprise waiting for you.

garage chemist - 31-5-2013 at 11:48

@Woelen: Where did you see the Rothenberger MAP PRO cylinders? Are these being offered at a hardware store near you, or would you have to order them? If yes, where?
I'll get two cylinders, at least.

I will also need a suitable regulator for the MAP PRO cylinder.
Do you know whether the CGA 600 regulator is the same as the one that's used for the Multigas 300 (propane-butane) cartridges, described as 7/16" EU coupling here:
http://www.rothenberger.com/products/rothenberger/bondingsol... ?
And why are the MAP PRO cylinders not listed on the Rothenberger website?

plante1999 - 31-5-2013 at 12:49

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie

Quote: Originally posted by plante1999

If I'm apple to find some ammonium molybdate cheaply I will also try ammooxidation of propylene to acrylonitrile (and some HCN, that will be recovered in methanol sol. of KOH).

I have made ammonium molybdate from the mineral molybdenite. I will tell how in a separate thread.

Thank you for pointing out the OTC availability of high grade propylene!

Your welcomed, sadly I had looked for molybdenite in the past, and it was quite expensive, much more than I have on hand at the moment.

Unionised, I believe the pressure from the gas flow protect from sucback.

Woelen, I'm impress I can find something here that you have difficulty to get, or at least is much more costly, like 3 times the price here. Usually it is the inverse.

woelen - 31-5-2013 at 13:14

@garage chemist: I just ordered two cylinders of Map Pro gas from eBay:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/140980794096?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT...

This is the pure propylene gas (the ebay seller also states that it is propylene, which is honest, because for the intended application, MAPP gas is better than propylene).

I also found quite a few torches, with built in piezo igniter and flame regulator, but I did not yet find a simple regulator, which allows the gas to flow out of the cylinder into a rubber or PVC tube. I do not want to pay for all the bells and whistles which are on a complete torch system, so I'll look further.

The same seller also sells freon gases, a few different kinds, also in such cylinders with CGA 600 outlet (this apparently is a standardized outlet). I only ordered the propylene, which I want to use for chemistry experiments. The CGA 600 connection looks quite familiar to me, so it might be that I can find a suitable regulator locally. I do not know the Multigas 300 connection, so unfortunately I cannot answer that question.

The Map Gas itself is not available in the Netherlands, over here there is MAPP gas for this application, which is a mix of propyne, propadiene, propene, propane and some polymerization inhibitor. This MAPP gas also is more expensive (300 ml for EUR 25 or so).

I was pleased to read about the properties of propylene. It is virtually non-toxic (it only is considered an asphyxiation risk, like any gas) and non-corrosive. MAPP gas on the other hand, is quite toxic, mainly due to the polymerization inhibitor, which makes up appr. 7% of the gas mix. So, experimenting with propylene must be quite safe (of course, there still is the risk of fire, the gas is very flammable).

[Edited on 31-5-13 by woelen]

garage chemist - 31-5-2013 at 15:20

@woelen: I have a complete Rothenberger Roxy welding torch set that can be used with the Multigas 300 and Maxigas 400 cartridges. I have now found that the Multigas 300 and MAPP cartridges have the same connection, and since you said that MAP PRO and MAPP also have the same connection this means that I already have this CGA 600 regulator on my torch set.

I found this regulator available as an individual part here:
http://www.hausundwerkstatt24.de/Gasfeinregulierventil-von-R...
This should be the part that you're looking for- it connects to all disposable Rothenberger gas cylinders.
You will also need this M8x1 hose barb for connecting to a hose:
http://www.hausundwerkstatt24.de/Gewindetuelle-M8x1-RH-4mm

Bot0nist - 31-5-2013 at 15:25

Thanks plante. Your many contributions to SciMad are impressive and appriciated.

This may be usefull to anyone intrested in methyl acrylate... Depending on how easy the oxidation to acrylic acid is. I havnt researched it.

[Edited on 31-5-2013 by Bot0nist]

plante1999 - 31-5-2013 at 16:40

Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist

Thanks plante. Your many contributions to SciMad are impressive and appriciated.

This may be usefull to anyone intrested in methyl acrylate... Depending on how easy the oxidation to acrylic acid is. I havnt researched it.

[Edited on 31-5-2013 by Bot0nist]

Thanks, I believe acrylonitrile can be hydrolysed to acrylic acid. There is also pathway to methacrylic acid out of propylene itself, by its reaction with HCl, and then reaction with Mg and then CO2 with subsequent hydrolysis. You could also do more industrial-like way.

woelen - 1-6-2013 at 01:43

Quote: Originally posted by garage chemist

I found this regulator available as an individual part here:
http://www.hausundwerkstatt24.de/Gasfeinregulierventil-von-R...
This should be the part that you're looking for- it connects to all disposable Rothenberger gas cylinders.
You will also need this M8x1 hose barb for connecting to a hose:
http://www.hausundwerkstatt24.de/Gewindetuelle-M8x1-RH-4mm

Thanks for this info, I just ordered from that company (they ship to NL as well). You also ordered two cylinders of propylene? I saw that two more of these were ordered from the same seller.

plante1999 - 1-6-2013 at 11:56

So, woelen and garage chemist, what experimentation will you do with the propylene?

For some reasons, I can't experiment at the moment.

woelen - 1-6-2013 at 12:48

The propylene for me is a nice starter for doing somewhat more organic chemistry. Making the oxide sounds interestng, but as a starter, I can make a mix of the two stereo isomers of 1,2-dichloropropane. Separating the two enantiomers probably is not within reach of my homelab.

Another interesting direction could be some polymerization experiments.

[Edited on 1-6-13 by woelen]

plante1999 - 1-6-2013 at 12:53

Polymerisation of propylene require zieter nigga catalyst, which is out of reach of most member here. I believe only one compound form with chlorine, however, when you react with water and chlorine. the two variant of chloropropanol are made, which, upon basification and distillation will yield propylene oxide.

binaryclock - 1-6-2013 at 18:44

Quote: Originally posted by plante1999

.. nigga catalyst,

:/

It doesn't help the fact that I don't know what a nigga catalyst is..

plante1999 - 1-6-2013 at 18:49

What a typo! It is ziegler natta catalyst, sorry.

The_Davster - 1-6-2013 at 19:25

Quote: Originally posted by Intergalactic_Captain

The only thing I've done with it chemically was an attempt at a mapp vs. acetylene AgNO3 double salt which never worked - And it seems that Axt is the only one here who ever even attempted that much.

The silver methylacetylide worked for me as well with MAPP, but it was a very poor energetic.

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

I also found quite a few torches, with built in piezo igniter and flame regulator, but I did not yet find a simple regulator, which allows the gas to flow out of the cylinder into a rubber or PVC tube. I do not want to pay for all the bells and whistles which are on a complete torch system, so I'll look further.

When I was playing with MAPP, I used a regular torch head (no piezo) and regulation was by a twistable head. The head could be twisted off completely, and a tube stuck over it for a perfect fit.

vmelkon - 1-6-2013 at 20:25

They use to sell propylene in one of those small tanks and it was expensive. It was a 300 mL tank and I only saw it at Home Depot (Canada).
I guess MAPP gas is dead. It is now just a marketing term for pure propylene and other gas mixes.

So, how about making some 2-propanol?

plante1999 - 1-6-2013 at 20:29

I could easily do that with sulphuric acid and the propylene. I was making, lets say, harder to find compounds...
And also, I runned out of H2SO4 yesterday

woelen - 2-6-2013 at 05:53

Quote: Originally posted by plante1999

Polymerisation of propylene require zieter nigga catalyst, which is out of reach of most member here. I believe only one compound form with chlorine, however, when you react with water and chlorine. the two variant of chloropropanol are made, which, upon basification and distillation will yield propylene oxide.

I did not yet study the chemistry of the polymerization reaction. It might indeed be beyond reach of home chemistry, it just came to mind to me to try that kind of experiments.

With chlorine, I expect two different stereo isomers to form of 1,2 dichloropropane. After addition of chlorine (or bromine) you have a molecule, which can be written as

CHCl(CH2Cl)(CH3) (or Cl replaced with Br if Br2 is used).

The central C-atom has 4 different groups (H, Cl, CH2Cl, and CH3) attached to it and then there are stereo isomers (think of these isomers as left and right hand, which are very similar, but are not the same).

turd - 3-6-2013 at 00:41

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

which are very similar, but are not the same.

This does not mean anything as it depends on what you consider as same and similar.

The correct word is enantiomers, which perfectly describes the situation at hand: The molecules are related by isometry (a distance preserving function), but not by proper rotations. That means that the molecules have exactly the same inter-atomic distances, angles and in consequence energy and therefore - in an anisotropic environment - behave exactly the same and therefore you could say they are the same.

Now if you put them in a chiral environment, like let's say a polarimeter, then yes, they will behave differently. So you could say they are different. But you could bring the same argument for two molecules of the same enantiomer with different orientations with respect to for example an electric field.

So why differentiate between proper rotations (same enatiomer) and improper rotations (different enantiomer). Because to map two molecules of the same enantiomer onto each other you can slowly rotate them while keeping all interatomic distances the same. To map molecules of different enantiomers at some point you have to invert one molecule which cannot be decomposed into infinitesimal steps that preserve the molecular geometry.

Conclusion: what is same and what is similar depends heavily on context (and prejudice!) but is never useful to describe anything in itself.

PS: Diasteroemers are also stereo isomers but are not isometric and thus have different interatomic distances and geometries. Yet another level of similar/same. Thus, stereo isomers is formally correct, but too imprecise in this case.

</rant>

woelen - 3-6-2013 at 02:11

It is just a matter of semantics. Fact remains that different enantiomers are not the same. A left hand never can be changed into a right hand in 3D space. You need to mirror the object and such an operation is not possible by allowing translations and rotations only.

Of course, things like boiling point, melting point, color, chemical reactivity are the same for enantiomers, but if you make crystals of different enantiomers, then these also are mirror objects of each other (unless they have some plane of symmetry, then you cannot distinguish crystals of different enantiomers).

unionised - 3-6-2013 at 02:25

Quote: Originally posted by plante1999

Unionised, I believe the pressure from the gas flow protect from sucback.

I don't.
And I think some people have believed that in the past and have been woefully mistaken.

woelen - 3-6-2013 at 03:20

You indeed need protection from suckback. For experiments, the gas flow is adjusted to a very low rate (e.g. in the order of 100 ml per minute) and at such low rates, suckback is possible. You don't want traces of chlorine or bromine in your gas container. It contaminates your gas and if a little more is sucked back, then it leads to corrosion of your regulator and possible leaking of the gas from the container.

vmelkon - 4-6-2013 at 07:56

I checked and looks like I have an old cylinder of MAPP gas (propyne and propadiene). What interesting experiments can be done with it? If I pass the gas through some KMnO4, would propyne turn into a diol?

plante1999 - 4-6-2013 at 08:48

I guess it could be brominated and chlorinated in a solvent, but such reactions might be quite dangerous due to the trible bond. Probably not in a diol, because it have a trible bond, and not a doble bond.

Be safe.

Salmo - 4-6-2013 at 15:06

there's something about acetylene iodination in publication, propyne should react in the same way..

plante1999 - 4-6-2013 at 16:34

Propylene oxide

Propylene oxide was attempted, but due to the serious lack of suitable distillation equipment, was only partially successful. Pictures were taken, but found to be quite uninteresting.

50 ml of 10% NaOCl was added in a flask and a propylene flow was passed in it. Time to time, concentrated hydrochloric acid was added in the NaOCl sol.. At some point, the chlorine produced was all absorbed by the solution, at this point the solution was quite cloudy, mostly all propylene was absorbed in the solution. When clhlorine was not anymore produced, and the yellow color persisted, the mixture was distilled in a very improvised ground glass set-up consisting of a short path condenser filled with cold water, a rubber glove as the thermometer stopper and a 50 ml receiving flask.

After few second of distilliation, a whitish liquid was collected. When the first water clear drop was obtained, the distillation was stopped. The liquid collected had a alkene smell. The milkish liquid had a lower uncolored layer. The whitish layer dissolved all the way in water to give a clear solution.

It is believed, that most of the propylene oxide/chloropropanol was distilled while there were produced, lowering the yield.

More work needed.

woelen - 7-6-2013 at 10:30

I received my 2 bottles of Map Pro gas and I received the regulator, but unfortunately they do not match. I cannot use the combination. The regulator is for another type of connection, which is fairly common where I live, but the Map Pro cylinders' connection appears to be very special. I could not find any place where I live, which carries gas cylinders with that kind of connection, although CGA 600 is supposed to be quite common.

garage chemist - 7-6-2013 at 10:38

That's unfortunate woelen. I initially also bought two cylinders from this seller but canceled my order when I saw that he wanted EUR 20 for shipping. I will order from another supplier.
When I find out what kind of regulator fits these bottles I will let you know.

For now, the most obvious solution would be to buy a cheap torch which fits this cylinder.

woelen - 7-6-2013 at 11:38

The only 100% sure source of pure propene is that Italian seller and sellers in the USA and the UK. The problem with pressurized gas is that shipping is troublesome and this Italian shipper can use road transport. Air-transport of pressurized gas is not possible and none of these UK-based suppliers ships to locations outside the UK.

The bottles I have from the Italian seller state that the sole ingredient is CAS no. 115-07-1, which indeed is pure propylene. The trouble with all these hardware-store things is that the true properties of the materials are so uncertain. I now know that Rothenberger's cylinders are pure propylene, but this need not be the case for other brands who sell similar cylinders with similar names.

I found a German supplier who sells Map/Pro gas and ships to German locations without cost. It might be interesting for you.
http://www.ebay.de/itm/MapGas-Pro-Kartusche-Map-Gas-Mapp-Gas...

It appears to be some Greek source of Map/Pro gas or some similar gas which is marketed as such and I'm not sure about the contents of this gas. The form factor is the same and it is called Map/Pro, but I cannot find any information on the precise contents of the gas mix in this bottle. Maybe it is pure propylene, but I'm not sure. Probably it is some low price no-name brand, which tries to mimic Rothenberger and sells cylinders for lower prices, but these need not be inferior.

For now, I have sufficient of the gas, now I need to find a suitable regulator, but this is harder than I first expected. Unfortnately that same German seller does not sell torches or regulators for the Map/Pro bottles.

garage chemist - 7-6-2013 at 12:33

Yes, that's the seller from which I ordered. Free shipping in Germany.
When I have access to the gas I will condense some of it into a cold trap and record a boiling curve during subsequent evaporation. This will tell without any doubt whether this is pure propylene.

woelen - 8-6-2013 at 07:14

For me there will be no experimenting with the gas for the time being

. I'll keep the gas bottles and maybe next month or the month after that I'll buy a regulator when I have some budget for scientific stuff again. These regulators are very expensive and amazingly hard to get where I live.

[Edited on 8-6-13 by woelen]

Magpie - 8-6-2013 at 15:20

The link below shows a regulator that screws onto a CGA-600 male end such as those found on the 400g disposable propane cylinders in the US:

http://www.propane-products.com/index.php?l=product_detail&a...

I have one of these and I use it for my bunsen burner when using propane or MAPP gas. Although I haven't seen a MAP-Pro cylinder end yet I'm betting it is the same. My particular regulator is stamped "model 6000 Precimex LP gas regulator." It was likely sold under the Mr. Heater brand and I remember buying it in a BBQ supplies store. Mine has a brass hose barb outlet, however. I'm guessing that the one shown in the link has a brass orifice. If desired this orifice could likely be removed and replaced with a hose barb. This would take a little handyman work, however.

Also, Avogadro's Lab Supply has one at $45.

woelen - 18-6-2013 at 23:27

I finally found a good regulator at the Greek company Tepse. It is a STK-R regulator, sold as part of a kit, called STK-9, which includes the regulator and torch. The price (incl. 23% VAT) of the regulator plus torch is just below EUR 45 + shipping, which is very cheap compared to other places, which sell the STK-9 kit.

The STK-R regulator is great. It allows very precise control, you can have a flow of only a fraction of 1 ml per second and you can have a very high flow and everything in between.

Service of the company is good. Something went wrong during the ordering process (technical issues with the website during order registration), but after sending a message to the company the issues were resolved immediately. This is the web address:

http://www.tepse.gr/root.en.aspx

The issues may have been caused by my setup (popup blocker in webbrowser).

The regulator and torch are heavy! They are massive brass and together they are at least as heavy as a full cylinder of propylene. The torch is useful for me as well. It produces a very nice hot flame, ideal for glass blowing, e.g. making ampoules.

plante1999 - 19-6-2013 at 04:10

So, you are going to experiment with propylene gas?

I is much harder in europe to get regulators, here it is all the same regulator for non explosive combustible gas such as propylene, propane etc...

Magpie - 19-6-2013 at 07:17

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

The regulator and torch are heavy! They are massive brass and together they are at least as heavy as a full cylinder of propylene. The torch is useful for me as well. It produces a very nice hot flame, ideal for glass blowing, e.g. making ampoules.

I saw this same torch/regulator in use yesterday! I am having my kitchen rebuilt and a plumber was using just such a torch on MAP/Pro gas. The swiveling and fine pressure regulation were impressive. This is what it looked like although I neglected to look at it closely to get brand/model:

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/LENOX-Swivel-Torch-4NE79?Pi...

The plumber was very skilled. Here's a picture of his work:

[Edited on 19-6-2013 by Magpie]

garage chemist - 19-6-2013 at 07:21

I also got my MAP Pro cylinders and they indeed have a connection that does not fit onto anything that's being sold in Germany.
Good to hear that you found a supplier for a torch, woelen. I will see whether I also have to buy this.

[Edited on 19-6-2013 by garage chemist]

bfesser - 19-6-2013 at 09:17

<strong>Magpie</strong>, Is that a copper drain line? I've never seen copper used for drain lines in my area. That would hold up to solvent 'recycling' much better than the PVC which is common here!

Magpie - 19-6-2013 at 10:02

Quote: Originally posted by bfesser

<strong>Magpie</strong>, Is that a copper drain line? I've never seen copper used for drain lines in my area. That would hold up to solvent 'recycling' much better than the PVC which is common here!

Yes, it's 1.5" copper. My house was built in 1965 when copper plumbing was commonly installed. I also have oak floors

.

I understand that ABS (black plastic) is commonly used for drain lines now.

woelen - 19-6-2013 at 10:51

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie

[...]
I saw this same torch/regulator in use yesterday! I am having my kitchen rebuilt and a plumber was using just such a torch on MAP/Pro gas. The swiveling and fine pressure regulation were impressive. This is what it looked like although I neglected to look at it closely to get brand/model:

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/LENOX-Swivel-Torch-4NE79?Pi...
[...]

Yes, this is what I have, but for a lower price. I was really impressed by the prices of the Greek company. Not only the regulator and torch have amuch lower price, but the MAP/Pro cylinders also are much cheaper (leass than EUR 10 incl. VAT). The only thing is that you need to combine multiple items in a single order, otherwise shipping cost is very high, relative to the value of the products.

@Plante1999: I indeed want to do experiments with the gas. Next weekend I first will play around with basic stuff like adding Br2 or Cl2 to the molecule, but the propylene oxide experiment also sounds quite nice. Another experiment I have in mind is making acrolein, using certain metal oxides as catalyst for the reaction.
Polymerization is another possibly interesting thing, but you wrote this is very hard to achieve. I'll have to read more about this process before I do any experiments with that.

woelen - 20-6-2013 at 12:36

I did a first experiment with Br2. I slowly bubbled propene through Br2, until the liquid does not become lighter anymore. The reaction is very exothermic, while I bubbled in propene, I kept the test tube under running tap water.

The resulting liquid has a pleasant sweetish smell. It does not become totally colorless, a clearly visible chocolate-brown color remains. I think this is due to some impurity in the Br2.

AndersHoveland - 20-6-2013 at 12:52

What about a radical chlorination? wonder what the yields of 3-chloropropylene would be.

woelen - 20-6-2013 at 22:47

I think they yield would be very low. As soon as Cl2 comes in contact with propylene, it adds to it. If excess Cl2 were used, then I can imagine that further chlorination occurs.

I now suddenly also think that in my little experiment of yesterday, part of the bromine went into further bromination. First 1,2-dibromopropene is formed, but I had excess bromine in the first part of the experiment. The excess bromine may have further brominated the alkane. During the experiment, I noticed formation of quite some white fumes with pungent odour, forming at the open end of the test tube. I was wondering what this could be, but of course this must be fumes of HBr, reacting with water vapor in the humid air.

plante1999 - 21-6-2013 at 02:36

If bromine really reacted with a brominated alkane, it ether means there was a lot of light when you done it, or the cooling was really inefficient. In my experiments, the only smell I got was a sweet smell.

woelen - 21-6-2013 at 06:03

I had a thick plume of white fumes, getting out of the test tube. The test tube also became frosty near the rim, a typical thing when fumes of HCl or HBr are produced. I had bright TL-light during the experiment and the test tube was quite hot (near the boiling point of Br2). I'll retry my experiment tonight with purer Br2.

I have two questions for you:
1) Did you get a colorless liquid or remained your liquid brown as well, even after adding excess propylene?
2) Did you have visible fumes of HBr?

plante1999 - 21-6-2013 at 06:44

1) It made a colorless liquid with excess propylene. The last bit from slightly red to colorless take 5 min.

2) I din't had any visible fumes of HBr

woelen - 21-6-2013 at 11:04

I did the experiment with another sample of bromine and with this I got a perfectly colorless liquid and only a small amount of white fumes. The liquid I obtained was non-flammable and also has low volatility.

I found out that one of my two bottles of bromine is totally spoilt. The cap has become a big blister inside and a dark brown tar-like substance has flown into my bromine

That was the reason for the crappy result of my first experiment.
Luckily my other bromine still is in perfect state (see picture on wikipedia) and it gives perfect results.

vmelkon - 24-6-2013 at 07:19

Quote: Originally posted by vmelkon

I checked and looks like I have an old cylinder of MAPP gas (propyne and propadiene). What interesting experiments can be done with it? If I pass the gas through some KMnO4, would propyne turn into a diol?

If anyone is interested, I tried the experiment on a very small scale.
In a test tube, made a 1 mL solution with KMnO4. I push some propyne in. I put the stopper on and shaked it. The purple color goes away and you get a clear liquid. The cloud of MnO2 conglomerates and forms chunks of MnO2.

http://www.chemistry.ccsu.edu/glagovich/teaching/311/content...
According to that link, it would produce acetic acid and CO2. The propyne gets cleaved. I smelled it to see if I would detect from acetic acid but could only smell the MAPP gas.

plante1999 - 2-7-2013 at 06:04

Isopropyl alcohol synthesis

The synthesis of isopropanol from propylene and water, using various catalysts. The production of isopropanol is now one of great importance, for its many industrial uses, including isopropyl ether, isopropyl acetates, and various amines. In 1990, isopropanol was the 48th most produced chemicals.

Isopropyl ether is used as an industrial extraction solvent, much like ethyl ether in a laboratory. Isopropyl acetate is a solvent used in cellulose related industrial process, such as the paper industry. The various amines are used as bases with higher boiling point then ammonia, but much lower than inorganic bases.

The fallowing experiment was divided in three parts:

Part 1:
Demonstration of isopropyl alcohol formation by sulphuric acid catalysed hydratation of propylene

Part 2:
Synthesis of 91% isopropanol by sulphuric acid catalysed hydratation of propylene

Part 3:
Direct synthesis of 85-90% isopropanol via phosphoric acid solid state catalyst

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Part 1

To 3 ml of 96-98% sulphuric acid is added 0.5ml of distilled water to make a 80-85% sulphuric acid solution. The solution is placed in a sturdy glass test tube.

On the propylene cylinder outlet, a rubber tube is connected and the a glass tube inserted in the other end of the rubber tube. The glass tube is placed in the sulphuric acid.

A small flow of propylene is passed in, an regulated so no propylene comes out of the sulphuric acid. After a certain time, some propylene will come out of the solution, at this point, stop the propylene flow and remove the glass tube from the sulphuric acid.

Add 10 ml of distilled water to the sulphuric acid, and a few crystals of potassium dichromate, shake well. Within a few second, the solution turn green.

The green color prove the presence of an easily oxidized group, which can only come from isopropyl alcohol formed.

Explanations

When propylene is passed in the concentrated sulphuric acid, it form isopropyl hydrogen sulphate, 1 propyl hydrogen sulphate is not formed in large enough quantity to be a real product due the Markovnikov's rule, group will attach to carbon atoms with more carbon-carbon bonds.

When water is added, the sulphonate is hydrolysed to isopropanol and sulphuric acid, one could distill the formed isopropanol azetrope to get usable isopropanol, see part 2.

The dichromate, in acid condition will oxidize the hydroxy group to make the ketone, acetone. When dichromate is reduced, it makes chromium III, which is green or purple, depending on the condition.

A interesting addition migth be to mention that the isopropyl hydrogen sulphate made when the proplene is passed in the sulphuric acid can directly be used in synthesis, for example to make sodium isopropyl sulphate.

Pictures added soon.

woelen - 2-7-2013 at 06:48

Good to see you here again!

A good check for the presence of isopropyl alcohol is simply smelling the test tube. This alcohol has a very specific smell and is nearly non-toxic, so you can safely smell it.

Doesn't dichromate oxidize propylene directly. A counter experiment would be to bubble some propylene through an acidified solution of a dichromate (e.g. 50 mg K2Cr2O7 dissolved in 3 ml of 1 M H2SO4). If this indeed changes color from orange to green or greyish/purple, then your experiment is not conclusive. Smelling is conclusive, the smell of isopropyl alcohol cannot be mistaken.

plante1999 - 2-7-2013 at 07:00

I tried to use a more appropriate scientific test, but it did smelled slightly isopropanol, take not that I have a very bad smelling sense. If propylene is directly oxidized, it would make directly propylene glycol, it might be an interesting experiment, however I highly doubt propylene is soluble without reaction in the medium.