Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Is it possible ? (No reason it can explode in nitration)

Is it possible ? (No reason it can explode in nitration)

Peroksit - 12-6-2013 at 22:49

Hello
Sorry my bad english
Have you ever heard "During the nitration time it was explode RDX or ETN or PETN or some stable kind of explosives?"

Everything is good. Temp is good, Mixing very well (Don't be localize over heating), Don't hit of beaker edges, Pure reactan chemical ( pentaerythritol is pure %99 or Erythritol %98-99, Sulfuric acid %98 , Nitric acid %65 or nitrate salt ) and Nitration time not long
While there is nothing in sight is it possible ? no heat up (No runaway signs) , when everything see fine ?

? someone said to me this incident is possible for NG but I don't know :S how can do :S My guess is nothing happens without a reason what are your ideas ?

is it possible ? RDX , PETN , Tetryl as safer one explosives ? and is it possible for NG ?

[Edited on 13-6-2013 by gamez34]

Motherload - 12-6-2013 at 23:07

It won't. There is always a reason.
They are not sensitive enough/unstable enough to go off for no reason.
RDX and PETN in particular. Nitroglycerin requires more care but certainly doesn't have a mind of its own.

papaya - 12-6-2013 at 23:35

Quote: Originally posted by Motherload

Nitroglycerin requires more care but certainly doesn't have a mind of its own.

I would be more careful giving such kind of advices, since it is very well known from literature that this process is very dangerous, especially if NG stays in contacts with mixed acids and also it's known that pure NG if heated will go thermal runaway with explosion (same could happen during reaction). So NO, particularly NG making process is very dangerous and not forgiving.

Peroksit - 12-6-2013 at 23:45

Quote: Originally posted by papaya

Quote: Originally posted by Motherload

Nitroglycerin requires more care but certainly doesn't have a mind of its own.

is this type dangerous current for petn , rdx , etn type explosives ? and isn't This thermal runaway we know just runaway ? or thermal runaway diffirent incident ? so Actually my question is While there is nothing in sight is it possible ? no heat up , when everything see fine ?

[Edited on 13-6-2013 by gamez34]

papaya - 13-6-2013 at 00:38

Don't know about other substances, runaway is a runaway, meaning that at the time you note it starts to heat up too much it's already late to cool it down, and that's why you don't want make things which can explode due to this... Gather information before you decide to do anything (as a rule), original literature better, a lot of confusion is spread in internet so be careful.

Ral123 - 13-6-2013 at 00:43

I had many EGDN runaways, generally even batch with 60% nitric will produce so much heat that even half of the sulfuric acid will boil away. As far as I know NG and specially ETN will detonate long before that temperature is reached. Not to mention MN.

Peroksit - 13-6-2013 at 03:31

Quote: Originally posted by Ral123

I had many EGDN runaways, generally even batch with 60% nitric will produce so much heat that even half of the sulfuric acid will boil away. As far as I know NG and specially ETN will detonate long before that temperature is reached. Not to mention MN.

hmm I won't make NG but That incident is possible or not for at more safer explosives such as petn , rdx , etn ? While there is nothing in sight is it possible ? no heat up (No runaway signs) , when everything see fine ?

I know runaway but this confused my mind

[Edited on 13-6-2013 by gamez34]

Trotsky - 13-6-2013 at 04:20

I'm confused by the claim that even pure nitroglycerin will undergo thermal runaway if heated.

The runaway that occurs during the reaction is a result of to much heat being generated by the reaction making the reaction run faster and faster until it's boiling hot.

How does pure, already nitrated nitroglycerin runaway? As far as I can tell, this claim is without merit or rational base

papaya - 13-6-2013 at 09:05

Quote: Originally posted by Trotsky

I'm confused by the claim that even pure nitroglycerin will undergo thermal runaway if heated.

The runaway that occurs during the reaction is a result of to much heat being generated by the reaction making the reaction run faster and faster until it's boiling hot.

How does pure, already nitrated nitroglycerin runaway? As far as I can tell, this claim is without merit or rational base

If you take an open cup filled with NG and heat it up underneath at some point it will most likely explode.

Motherload - 13-6-2013 at 09:06

@ papaya
Gamez34 was describing a controlled condition ..... Those explosives are not unstable enough to detonate on their own.

No body said anything about leaving them in contact with acid or rapid heating.
That would be dumber than poking the hornets nest with an ice cream stick, fifty feet above ground on a tree.

Read both first 2 posts again.

papaya - 13-6-2013 at 09:35

From his question I made an opinion that he wants to try some of those synthesis first time and asks "If I do everything right, is it possible that anything bad will happen?" Well, if it goes with no troubles then yes, but how will you know that the following batch will be OK ? Also if a runaway starts very sharply (like one second before it was ok, a second later it catches fire) what will he do? I answered that way to make sure people are not going to consider NG synthesis a safe procedure. Why to stick with dangerous things at all when there are alternatives?

Peroksit - 13-6-2013 at 10:02

I am not beginner I had made tatp and low type explosives 4-5 years ago

but when I didn't know tatp is so unstable and dangerous then
I know during the nitration time some safely tool need a big bucket of cold water if it will wrong drop the mixture to bucket
I am just wondering it is possible ? it can explode no reason when nitrated of Glycerin if it can with NG my 2th question is this

this incident is possible with such as PETN , ETN , Tetryl (with some stable kind of explosive it can ? )

Fantasma4500 - 13-6-2013 at 11:31

no offense but it seems that youre ignoring their answers..
as i read theres been answers to the same question more than twice, or well at least twice
nothing happens without reason
even NI3 goes off by some reason, saying there was no reason is just stating that youre so good that nothing can go wrong and when something goes wrong your pride is so high that you wont admit you kept it a few *C too high
thats how you generate false information and myths

in short:
No.

The_Davster - 13-6-2013 at 13:30

Everything above seems to be a variation of:
"will I fuck up if I do not fuck up?"

Of course you will not fuck up, if you do not fuck up

The question is whether you know all the factors that can lead to a fuck up.

No, a reaction held at the perfect temp will not run away *if nothing changes* But is there so a small lump of reactant that the stirr bar may break up and lead to a temp rise? Will a drop of water fall into your mixed acid giving localized heating initiating a runaway?

What I am getting at, is you may not know if the reaction is going perfectly, and you need to plan for contingencies...

The only way to plan for these eventualities is to do it small scale, so if the worst happens you are still safe. And small scale, adding one drop of reagent to a reaction can trigger a larger thermal rise than in a larger reaction, so when you can reproducibly do a small scale reaction perfectly, you can begin scale up. In small increments.

PETN and ETN are rather sensitive, so during a runaway I would suspect they could detonate. Tetryl is not even in this class of materials, a nitroaromatic is not very sensitive so its synthesis has far more space for a fuck up than any of the nitric esters.

Ral123 - 13-6-2013 at 21:45

Above 3 nitro groups, aromatics become very sensitive. Look here, it goes of by very little AP with such poor confinement(straw), and detonates all the way:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGY1pPwyduE
While picric acid failed, even in a wider straw. It needed 9mm cart board and well hand pressed AP.

The_Davster - 13-6-2013 at 22:28

Sensitivity towards initiation in the dry state, vs when dispersed in a thermal sink such as water or conc. sulfuric acid are very different.

Trotsky - 13-6-2013 at 22:49

Quote: Originally posted by papaya

Quote: Originally posted by Trotsky

If you take an open cup filled with NG and heat it up underneath at some point it will most likely explode.

That's not thermal runaway.
That's applying heat until detonation.

Thermal runaway implies that the material will self heat uncontrollably. I don't see any rational basis for this claim.

If you apply heat to nitroglycerin it will not suddenly start warming itself until it boils or detonates. That's not going to happen. You may apply heat until it detonates if you want, but it isn't undergoing 'thermal runaway' anymore than any other compound that'll explode when you hold a match to them.

papaya - 13-6-2013 at 23:30

Quote: Originally posted by Trotsky

[
That's not thermal runaway.
That's applying heat until detonation.

Thermal runaway implies that the material will self heat uncontrollably. I don't see any rational basis for this claim.

If you apply heat to nitroglycerin it will not suddenly start warming itself until it boils or detonates. That's not going to happen. You may apply heat until it detonates if you want, but it isn't undergoing 'thermal runaway' anymore than any other compound that'll explode when you hold a match to them.

Don't want to start a war here, that is how I understood the following text from Urbanski, Vol.2

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jock88 - 14-6-2013 at 04:50

See the drip clip on this thread
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=949&am...
posted 4-3-12

[Edited on 14-6-2013 by jock88]

Peroksit - 14-6-2013 at 05:06

Quote: Originally posted by jock88

See the drip clip on this thread
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=949&am...
posted 4-3-12

[Edited on 14-6-2013 by jock88]

Thanks to everyone for this informations
I looked but I don't understand

[Edited on 14-6-2013 by gamez34]

caterpillar - 15-6-2013 at 20:55

NG may explode during its preparation, but RDX not. Runaway, however, is possible.

franklyn - 15-6-2013 at 22:02

Hazard of Runaway of Nitration Processes in Nitrocompounds Production
www.wydawnictwa.ipo.waw.pl/cejem/1-2010/Kozak.pdf

Related thread
www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=20161

.

Peroksit - 15-6-2013 at 23:06

thanks to everyone

franklyn : Thanks I will look that pdf

[Edited on 16-6-2013 by gamez34]