Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Called by the police for glassware

(though it has disappeared now,

Seems they don't believe you.. there's a reason why such a saying like "the good cop is one which is ***d" exist (known on some continents)

IrC - 19-8-2013 at 15:15

Quote: Originally posted by papaya

(though it has disappeared now,

Seems they don't believe you.. there's a reason why such a saying like "the good cop is one which is ***d" exist (known on some continents)

I have to say that bothers me. Without LEO many would be in bad circumstances or not here at all. The best friend I have is a state Trooper who would jump in front of a bus to save someone. He has put Himself in danger many times in 24 years on the force protecting others as well as removing from society many who would have gone on to destroy the lives of the innocent. That saying should not exist here or anywhere else. In fact 'the good cop' is a cop with my overwhelming support. Often it is not the cop but the training and orders not to mention improper screening causing the problems. We need law and order. What we do not need is tyranny and persecution. Most likely the 'good cop' is equally disturbed with what goes on in their department as well as things going on in society. Statements such as the one you quoted have no place here.

phlogiston - 19-8-2013 at 15:48

Indeed, all cops that I know personally or have dealt with are good people that generally do a good job and honestly only try to act in the interest of society. I am really glad to live in a country were the law is upheld by a reliable, well-meaning force. They are certainly not 'the enemy'.
Our hobby being so unusual, you can't really blame them for being suspicious when they encounter a home lab. Possibly, the majority of labs in domestic places may actually be illegal drug labs. Statistics are against us.

However, it is essential that they give you the opportunity to explain and that they leave you alone if there is no real reason to believe you are doing anything illegal.
In the OP's case, this happened, which is a very good thing.

Incidentally, LEO probably doesn't mean Low Earth Orbit in this context.. what does it mean? I guess Law enforcement -something-, but I couldn't find it explained online.

elementcollector1 - 19-8-2013 at 15:52

Law enforcement organization?

IrC - 19-8-2013 at 16:24

LEO has long meant 'Law Enforcement Officer' in any of the places I have seen it used.

I suppose it should be modified to avoid confusion when used to mean more than one, a group, service, or department. LEO = the individual, or the FBI, DEA, local department, or whatever. Oddly I never gave thought to this as in many conversations online (including here), it is typically used to name them in whatever context at the time.

A generic term I suppose. Along the lines of 'Kosh' in Babylon 5, or the Wraith of Stargate Atlantis fame. Thinking of the scene where the Vorlon said "we are all Kosh".

[Edited on 8-20-2013 by IrC]

Mr_Magnesium - 19-8-2013 at 22:54

Thanks for all the replies! i enjoyed reading every single post.

I did a bit of detective work and found out he actually has a conference coming up in a couple weeks which is apart of the WA Rangers.

Guess what he is there to talk about?

Clandestine Laboratories!

Going to go there and meet him afterwards just to introduce myself because i feel like a physical meeting will be a lot more comfortable than over the phone.

May even invite him over if he has spare time to take a look at how my lab is going, considering hes actually in a high ranked position which is rather surprising.

Time to hit up Laboy glass again and pick out a few strange pieces of glassware

Any reccomendations?

[Edited on 20-8-2013 by Mr_Magnesium]

Fantasma4500 - 20-8-2013 at 05:38

dont know if you can take this as actual reccomendation, althought i have something with tall beakers rather than low beakers

for laboratory use you might want to get a wide glass pan
makes it really fast to boil off 2 litres of water
makes everything possible and easy to do

perhaps just go buy some standard glass ware collection? 25 mL beakers are really good for just testing out some small stuff, such as lithium methoxide (lithium + methanol)
makes it all much easier i think, not so much to clean up afterwards

madcedar - 20-8-2013 at 06:38

100% correct. Sounds like some over zealous customs inspector. How unlucky. In theory you can tell the cops to go away and get a warrant. In this particular case it's probably better to do what you did. When you get older and have a place of your own you may want to stand by your rights and let them waste their time.

Oscilllator - 21-8-2013 at 00:43

AHHHH! I live in australia, am also 17, and was planning to buy this from laboy. This could very easily have been me. I have done quite a bit of research on the subject of purchasing glassware in australia. The reason they rang you up is almost certainly because your glassware contained one or more of the following:

-RBF's of capacity 500ml or greater
-Joint sized of 24/40 or greater
-a still head capable of attaching a thermometer <----wtf?

An end user agreement (EUD) is filled out for glassware like this, which basically says your not going to cook meth with the glassware, and by the way here are all my contact details, feel free to pop over any time you like. (yes they can and do come round to your house, but if your reasonably tidy and label all your chemicals etc then they will just go away, they'll need a warrant if they want to take your stuff)
Now precisely where your meant to send this EUD to isn't clear, but I understand that you send it to the supplier, and they give it to the police if needed. How this works for suppliers that are overseas I don't know, if I do purchase the glassware then I'll probs send a copy to a government department and laboy just to be on the safe side. Also, apparently this whole EUD thing is voluntary for the suppliers, but they are strongly encouraged to participate, i.e. participate or die!

Relevant info:
A handy table: http://sciencesupply.com.au/Ethos.html This also has other handy links.
legislation: http://scienceindustry.com.au/storage/documents/Code.pdf

Mr_Magnesium - 21-8-2013 at 01:32

Thanks for the post Oscilliator

Yeah! There's a nice little picture that details the necessary requirements for each state and has a few thumbs up of thumbs down on certain pieces of equipment.

I actually had to send an EUD to the detective sergeant for the chemical division in organized crime bahaha! Gave me his email and asked to send it to him. Probably saw me post in a Breaking Bad thread on another forum

Well I'm about to order some interesting glassware and send an EUD into laboy to forward it to them if necessary.

Guess I can't be the next Heisenberg

notachemist - 21-8-2013 at 04:40

I have made quite a few large purchases of glassware a few years ago from various suppliers; including laboy (to Australia). If it was picked up by customs I would have ended up with a visit from local LEO. I now feel that ordering anything else is really not worth the trouble of having my privacy violated.
The police will keep tabs on you but they have bigger fish to fry. As long as you are not trying to order anything on a watch list and you don't mind having a visit every blue moon or filling in paperwork, I would not worry.

Zephyr - 2-9-2013 at 15:19

Recently while vacationing in Minneapolis St. Paul I came across this strange surplus store named 'Axe Man' while looking for electronic equipment. Surprisingly this store had a wide array of glass ware including some strange looking gas generation apparati. I purchased several volumetric flasks as well as some ground glass bottles at about half the normal price. When flying back to Seattle I packed the glass ware in a carry on so they wouldn't get thrown around. Every thing went surprisingly well and no one had any objections to me taking my 500ml volumetric flask, even though slightly club like, on board.

Had I been transporting any chemicals, obviously the consequences would have been much more severe

Plutonium239 - 3-9-2013 at 14:01

I was going to buy a retort. I wonder if that would make the SC police come after me. It's really dumb that a few idiots trying to make methamphetamine (with no real knowledge of chemistry) have turned amateur chemists into criminals.

Mesa - 4-9-2013 at 07:22

A relative of mine ordered a complete 24/40 distillation setup from USA to Australia a few years back which was subsequently intercepted by customs. I don't know all the details, but I do know that he got a nice visit from the local police, and never ended up receiving said glassware despite being one of the most straightlaced(boring) individuals I know.

Chemosynthesis - 28-9-2013 at 07:22

Unfortunately, Plutonium, I have heard SC State (SLED) police make silly comments ("three neck flasks are illegal despite not having a law on the books, but you are associated"... whatever that means..." associated with various research institutes? Oh, we would make exceptions". Sound legit to you too? No?). Luckily none were directed to me.

Of course the paranoia was about meth labs... but now that the county disbanded the COBRA strike team... Well, I should just stop there. at least I never hear about personal orders being stopped and know of quite a few, but heaven forbid our bureaucracy actually enforce real laws instead of tell burgeoning students about the evils of school and government auctions.

NeonPulse - 9-11-2013 at 16:50

Exactly the same thing happened to me.... Order glass,customs flagged it and policemen pay a visit...seems this is becoming very common here in aus.seems absurd but I guess if they don't check who is buying it Walter white could be let free to continue cooking meth! I was also able to keep it but it makes me wonder if it is so red hot to own then why not just ban it?

Ramium - 2-3-2015 at 22:59

I recently bought a distillation kit from laboy glass. When it arived in the country the police called my mum and asked lots of questions about what i was using it for. we had to fill in a form.then they let us have the gear.

Darkstar - 3-3-2015 at 00:53

Quote: Originally posted by Ramium

I recently bought a distillation kit from laboy glass. When it arived in the country the police called my mum and asked lots of questions about what i was using it for. we had to fill in a form.then they let us have the gear.

Next time tell those morons that it's for steam distilling safrole and manufacturing MDMA. I mean, what else is a 13-year-old going to do with a distillation kit?

For fuck's sake... Their little "interrogation" should've ended the second your mom told the police your age.

Oscilllator - 3-3-2015 at 01:58

Quote: Originally posted by Ramium

I recently bought a distillation kit from laboy glass. When it arived in the country the police called my mum and asked lots of questions about what i was using it for. we had to fill in a form.then they let us have the gear.

A while back in this thread I posted about how I was planning to order a large kit from laboy, and as it turns out I actually went ahead with it. But before I ordered it I rang up several government agencies before being put on to a very serious agent who I then sent a email to explaining what I was planning to buy and promising not to cook meth with it.
He told me that because EUD's are an Australian piece of legislation china doesn't have to comply, and so you can't fill out an EUD. If you ask me, this is rather convenient for the authorities because then they can mumble on about you not filling out the proper paperwork when in fact it is impossible for you to do so. However the agent did say that if the glassware did get picked up at customs, this exchange of emails should show that I at least tried to do the right thing. I never did end up signing any paperwork or filling out any forms though, which is a plus I guess.

Loptr - 3-3-2015 at 08:56

Quote: Originally posted by NeonPulse

Exactly the same thing happened to me.... Order glass,customs flagged it and policemen pay a visit...seems this is becoming very common here in aus.seems absurd but I guess if they don't check who is buying it Walter white could be let free to continue cooking meth! I was also able to keep it but it makes me wonder if it is so red hot to own then why not just ban it?

How is it that Australian customs seems to catch so much at the border, while here in the USA you hear reports of how much gets through compared to how little is actually caught?

What is done differently, or is it a difference in the amount of inbound packages?

[Edited on 3-3-2015 by Loptr]

aga - 3-3-2015 at 14:05

Aus is a lot sharper is all.

More common sense is involved with stuff they consider Important.

Zombie - 3-3-2015 at 14:37

Quote: Originally posted by NeonPulse

One look at the prices of drugs in Australia should answer the question.
10 times that of the global average.

In the US Glass is not illegal. Neither is intent to loiter...

A-holes that order China precursors or watch list items plus glassware will have some explaining to do but glass, and acetone are NOT illegal here.

Does anyone else find it odd that you can walk to the hardware, buy a 10lb ingot of lead, a pound of smokeless powder, and a hundred primers,
Yet this discussion is really happening?

Glass?????

Perspective guys... It changes at home.

Loptr - 3-3-2015 at 15:00

Well, it kind of like another story I heard about a long time ago. People sell drugs in little baggies, so the authorities got the bright idea to outlaw the little baggies. LOL!

I don't know where this was, but it was a locality law.

Zombie - 3-3-2015 at 15:08

Perhaps in the Bronx, N.Y.

They have too much to deal with to chase a preteen thru alleys, and across traffic.

Take away the baggies, and you slow them down for a few weeks...
Take away tennis shoes, and the kids will be easier to catch.

Hell, Land mine the sidewalks, and, well you get the idea...

Chemosynthesis - 4-3-2015 at 09:23

Australia is a much smaller country than the United States, both in terms of land mass/borders, and population. This makes the logistics of monitoring imports much more feasible. When you have neighboring countries joined by land, it can also make it more difficult to intercept contraband since you have coastlines and foot traffic.

Loptr - 4-3-2015 at 12:24

Quote: Originally posted by Chemosynthesis

Australia is a much smaller country than the United States, both in terms of land mass/borders, and population. This makes the logistics of monitoring imports much more feasible. When you have neighboring countries joined by land, it can also make it more difficult to intercept contraband since you have coastlines and foot traffic.

Yeah, when you think about it, it makes sense.

I think it is a sign of desperation.

And remember, in certain states, if you have acetone, and intend to produce methamphetamine, you will get charged for the acetone, as well. Or at least that's how it is in my state, apparently, as I just read the law. Not to mention about nine other common acids/solvents, including 1,1,1-trichloroethane (really?).

And us 'mericans loves our guns, you stand back now, ya' hear? ;-)

Just ask any gun advocate about the M855 ban... I need my steel-tipped rounds! I have this ex-military guy that sits beside me at work that won't stop talking about it.

[Edited on 4-3-2015 by Loptr]

[Edited on 4-3-2015 by Loptr]

aga - 4-3-2015 at 12:51

Quote: Originally posted by Chemosynthesis

Australia is a much smaller country than the United States, both in terms of land mass/borders, and population.

Area of Aus is 78% that of the USA.

Population of Aus is 7% that of the USA.

Only the population is much smaller, the area is reasonably close.

Thanks Google !

Chemosynthesis - 4-3-2015 at 14:19

Quote: Originally posted by aga

Quote: Originally posted by Chemosynthesis

Australia is a much smaller country than the United States, both in terms of land mass/borders, and population.

Area of Aus is 78% that of the USA.

Population of Aus is 7% that of the USA.

Only the population is much smaller, the area is reasonably close.

Thanks Google !

Interesting. When I searched it, the USA was noted as 1.28148148148 times the square area of Australia, which makes Australia <72% the area of the USA, give or take by my figures. Good point, though. I falsely assumed that did not include territories, but still consider nearly the additional as relatively large, though I should have quantified that.

In terms of borders, though, it is clear the USA has more to watch than Australia. The USA has 5,525 miles of border with Canada, 1,989 miles with Mexico, and an additional 95,000 miles of shoreline compared with Australia's 22,292 miles of mainland coastline, and 14,825 miles of perimeter island coastline. Figures from CBP and google, respectively. This gives the USA 2.76191502546ish times the border length.

Additionally, the US has imports of US$2.357 trillion, much higher than Australia's total value of imports: US$200.4 billion

and more in line with the population. Obviously the population difference is in excess of 10x.

Numbers: Australia area=2.97 million sq miles
United States area=3.806 million sq miles

Above two from Google.

[Edited on 4-3-2015 by Chemosynthesis]

Zombie - 4-3-2015 at 20:42

I forget what the point of this thread was...

Let me say this.

If I have a 55 gallon drum, and twenty pounds of sugar in florida (where I live) I can be arrested.
Just for that!

I work on boats, and build boats.
Right now , at this very second I have approx. 40 gallons of HCl, and 30 gallons of acetone in my shed.
I have amine acids flowing out my ass........ If I buy a case of Mason jars, and a one pound block of yeast I risk loosing my house.

It's WAY easier for me to make METH, than 24 dozen muffins for the high schools bake sale.

You tell me exactly how important this freegin conversation is!

FTP

Loptr - 5-3-2015 at 09:27

I forget what the point of this thread was...

Let me say this.

If I have a 55 gallon drum, and twenty pounds of sugar in florida (where I live) I can be arrested.
Just for that!

I work on boats, and build boats.
Right now , at this very second I have approx. 40 gallons of HCl, and 30 gallons of acetone in my shed.
I have amine acids flowing out my ass........ If I buy a case of Mason jars, and a one pound block of yeast I risk loosing my house.

It's WAY easier for me to make METH, than 24 dozen muffins for the high schools bake sale.

You tell me exactly how important this freegin conversation is!

FTP

You say that, but I am not entirely convinced that is the case. I live in good 'ol Virginia, and for a few years of my life was in the Appalachian region for schooling, fiance, work, etc., and knew a few people that did have their own moonshine stills. There was this one developer I knew that was pretty crazy, and was more suited to living at the top of a mountain than for writing code.

I don't think they would even be at risk if they were found with mason jars and yeast... even in a county that was known for that sort of thing.

So explain how you could lose your house if you got caught with yeast?

[Edited on 5-3-2015 by Loptr]

http://americanhomedistillers.com/home-distilling-laws-is-it...

I don't see anything about having 55 gallon drums, sugar, yeast, and mason jars.... Perhaps if you had a... still

but otherwise, you would seem to be in the right with your sugar and yeast.

You can however, in Florida, distill ethanol for the purpose of using as fuel. I believe that you just have to denature it, such as with gasoline, but it must be very dry first, otherwise, it will form two phases.

[Edited on 5-3-2015 by Loptr]

Zombie - 5-3-2015 at 09:43

It's similar to the Analog act.

In Florida if you have anything resembling a still of ANY size that is ok.

If you have this still, and twenty pounds of sugar... Done deal.
They ASSUME you are making hootch, seize your property (where the still / sugar are located, and arrest you. No if's and's or but's.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Displ...

562.27 Seizure and forfeiture.—
(1) It is unlawful for any person to have in her or his possession, custody, or control, or to own, make, construct, or repair, any still, still piping, still apparatus, or still worm, or any piece or part thereof, designed or adapted for the manufacture of an alcoholic beverage, or to have in her or his possession, custody or control any receptacle or container containing any mash, wort, or wash, or other fermented liquids whatever capable of being distilled or manufactured into an alcoholic beverage, unless such possession, custody, control, ownership, manufacture, construction, or repairing be by or for a person authorized by law to manufacture such alcoholic beverage.
(2) It is unlawful for any person to have in her or his possession, custody, or control any raw materials or substance intended to be used in the distillation or manufacturing of an alcoholic beverage unless the person holds a license from the state authorizing the manufacture of the alcoholic beverage.
(3) The terms “raw material” or “substance” for the purpose of this chapter shall mean and include, but not be limited to, any of the following: Any grade or type of sugar, syrup, or molasses derived from sugarcane, sugar beets, corn, sorghum, or any other source; starch; potatoes; grain or cornmeal, corn chops, cracked corn, rye chops, middlings, shorts, bran, or any other grain derivative; malt; malt sugar or malt syrup; oak chips, charred or not charred; yeast; cider; honey; fruit; grapes; berries; fruit, grape or berry juices or concentrates; wine; caramel; burnt sugar; gin flavor; Chinese bean cake or Chinese wine cake; urea; ammonium phosphate, ammonium carbonate, ammonium sulphate, or any other yeast food; ethyl acetate or any other ethyl ester; any other material of the character used in the manufacture of distilled spirits or any chemical or other material suitable for promoting or accelerating fermentation; any chemical or material of the character used in the production of distilled spirits by chemical reaction; or any combination of such materials or chemicals.
(4) Any such raw materials, substance, or any still, still piping, still apparatus, or still worm, or any piece or part thereof, or any mash, wort, or wash, or other fermented liquid and the receptacle or container thereof, and any alcoholic beverage, together with all personal property used to facilitate the manufacture or production of the alcoholic beverage or to facilitate the violation of the alcoholic beverage control laws of this state or the United States, may be seized by the division or by any sheriff or deputy sheriff and shall be forfeited to the state.
(5) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of raw materials or other substances knowing same are to be used in the distillation or manufacture of an alcoholic beverage unless such person receiving same, by purchase or otherwise, holds a license from the state authorizing the manufacture of such alcoholic beverage.
(6) Any vehicle, vessel, or aircraft used in the transportation or removal of or for the deposit or concealment of any illicit liquor still or stilling apparatus; any mash, wort, wash, or other fermented liquids capable of being distilled or manufactured into an alcoholic beverage; or any alcoholic beverage commonly known and referred to as “moonshine whiskey” shall be seized and may be forfeited as provided by the Florida Contraband Forfeiture Act. Any sheriff, deputy sheriff, employee of the division, or police officer may seize any of the vehicles, vessels, or conveyances, and the same may be forfeited as provided by law.
(7) The finding of any still, still piping, still apparatus, or still worm, or any piece or part thereof, or any mash, wort, or wash or other fermented liquids in the dwelling house or place of business, or so near thereto as to lead to the reasonable belief that they are within the possession, custody, or control of the occupants of the dwelling house or place of business, shall be prima facie evidence of a violation of this section by the occupants of the dwelling house or place of business.
(8) Any person violating any provisions of this section of the law shall be guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
History.—s. 9, ch. 19301, 1939; CGL 1940 Supp. 4151(271q); s. 4, ch. 22669, 1945; s. 1, ch. 28073, 1953; s. 1, ch. 29804, 1955; s. 2, ch. 61-218; ss. 16, 35, ch. 69-106; s. 569, ch. 71-136; s. 2, ch. 72-230; s. 26, ch. 73-334; s. 6, ch. 74-385; s. 24, ch. 79-11; s. 6, ch. 80-68; s. 865, ch. 97-103.

Magpie - 5-3-2015 at 09:55

You can however, in Florida, distill ethanol for the purpose of using as fuel. I believe that you just have to denature it, such as with gasoline, but it must be very dry first, otherwise, it will form two phases.

I think this is a federal allowance and you must get a permit from the feds to do this. I have a friend who obtained this permit. It wasn't too much bother.

As a side note, my friend says he does not distill in the open in his backyard. He's afraid that the nosey neighbors would gossip and otherwise make a fuss or stir up trouble about this. So sad.

Zombie - 5-3-2015 at 10:01

You're both right. It's a fuel ethanol permit, and you can make up to 10k gallons per year.

Proper zoning, permits apply.

Loptr - 5-3-2015 at 13:17

You're both right. It's a fuel ethanol permit, and you can make up to 10k gallons per year.

Proper zoning, permits apply.

Thank you, both. I didn't know that you had to get a permit. After the moonshine thumper thread, I purchased a 6 gallon fermentation bucket to attempt my first fermentation with the intention of doing... something. My conclusion was that if you denature it right away, that you would be within the confines of the law, but if there is bias the part of the police, you could end up going in anyway.

The Volatile Chemist - 5-3-2015 at 13:42

You got off lucky!
get to know them, invite them in for coffee,... we always have copes over for coffe, it has gotten so frequent we just always have a pot of coffee on, and you wouldn't believe how much we get away with.
I had left a small baggie of sodium thiosulfate on the table and cop came by, could you imagine how bad that could have turned out? all they did was say:''OOh, look. meth!" and I corrected them and they believed me (though it has disappeared now,

Is there something specifically wrong with sodium thiosulfate? Just curious.
These stories are sad to me. They're the things that can ruin a life.

Cou - 5-3-2015 at 13:44

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist

Is there something specifically wrong with sodium thiosulfate? Just curious.
These stories are sad to me. They're the things that can ruin a life.

Sodium thiosulfate crystals look like meth crystals.

Zombie - 5-3-2015 at 14:10

Quote: Originally posted by Cou

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist

Is there something specifically wrong with sodium thiosulfate? Just curious.
These stories are sad to me. They're the things that can ruin a life.

Sodium thiosulfate crystals look like meth crystals.

You forgot to say SWIM told me!

Zombie - 5-3-2015 at 14:13

You're both right. It's a fuel ethanol permit, and you can make up to 10k gallons per year.

Proper zoning, permits apply.

Distilling any alcohol without the pre approved fuel permit can end up badly.

Many municipalities are making examples of cases in the US due solely to that "Moonshiners" TV show.

It's a new line in the sand kinda thing.

The Volatile Chemist - 5-3-2015 at 14:53

Quote: Originally posted by Cou

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist

Is there something specifically wrong with sodium thiosulfate? Just curious.
These stories are sad to me. They're the things that can ruin a life.

Sodium thiosulfate crystals look like meth crystals.

You forgot to say SWIM told me!

What, the hexagonal prism shape? Darn, and that was my favorite crystalline structure.
At least my Sodium Thiosulfate is anhydrous and in a reagent container.

Molecular Manipulations - 5-3-2015 at 15:35

Quote: Originally posted by Cou

Sodium thiosulfate crystals look like meth crystals.

Hardly.

Cou - 5-3-2015 at 15:53

Cops aren't smart enough to tell the difference.

Zombie - 5-3-2015 at 16:50

There are five of them right now that are smart enough to get your IP tho!

Careful what you say Bro! :cool:

I kinda like reading your posts.

Cou - 5-3-2015 at 17:25