Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Short question / quick answer - Thread

Short question / quick answer - Thread

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careysub - 9-9-2016 at 08:31

When handling high explosives, especially primaries, what precautions do you take in terms of maintaining a safe distance between your hands and the energetic material, particularly when conducting dangerous procedures (testing, cap filling, etc...)? How do you evaluate the minimum safe distance for a given power and quantity of an explosive?
In his writings, Ledgar gives the following rule:

Quote:

"10 centimeters per 1 gram TNT equivalent, 50 meters minimum safe distance per 500 grams TNT equivalent"

Do you agree with that?
If the statement is correct my hand wouldn't get any permanent damage if 1 gram of let's say Silver Acetylide Double Salt detonates at a 10 cm distance, because SADS it's way less powerful than TNT (of course I'm supposing it's not confined in any dangerous material such as glass). It looks like a very tiny distance to me, what do you think about it?

Furthermore how would the rule applies to explosives with higher VOD than TNT such as ETN? I don't think there's a linear relationship between VOD and minimum safe distance because pressure of the shock wave grows exponentially with VOD.

The subject is complicated so I'm just looking for a general rule of thumb. How do you organize in order to estimate and keep the proper distances when dealing with EMs?
As for me I made all kinds of different tools (spatulas, pliers, spoons) which are long and made of wood (to reduce the risk of electrostatic discharge). They allow me to always maintain a gap of 10 cm at least between my hand and SADS, which is the primary I've been experimenting with. I always use them when dealing with relevant quantities of dry SADS (above 100 mg).
I still don't know how am I going to approach the handling of the more powerful (and still relatively sensitive) ETN.

p.s.
I know lots of EM enthusiasts tend to handle sensitive primaries with bare hand (as it can be seen even on YouTube). Maybe I'm too cautious but I prefer to always work as safe as I can.

[Edited on 9-9-2016 by Tricka90]

A good rule of thumb is that is it is in Ledgar it is probably wrong.

Safe distances actually scale with the cube of the explosives weight, certainly for larger charges (see Army FM 3-34), page 6-7:
https://info.publicintelligence.net/USArmy-Explosives.pdf
although it uses a catch-all 300 meter safe distance for "27 lbs or less" which is obviously extremely conservative for small charges, but still the cube rule is physically sound.

The table is generated from the formula:
D(ft) = 300 * W(lb)^(1/3)

If you used this for very small amounts you would get 300 ft for 1 lb, and 39 feet for one gram.

According to Shimizu the safety distance formula used in Japan is:
D(m) = K * W^(1/3) where K is a constant varying from 2.4 for black powder to 3.0 for high explosives (i.e. the difference is small from one EM to the next).
He does not say what unit W is in, but it would appear to be grams which is what he uses elsewhere in the chapter.

From this it would give the safe distance of 3 meters for one gram, not Ledgar's 10 cm.

The limiting factor in the Army calculations anyway is hearing injury. Incidentally, I hope you having a handgun fired one meter away, with a charge of about 0.3 grams is hazardous to unprotected hearing, even one shot. Good hearing protection will reduce the distance hazard (but only for you, who are wearing it).

Clearly it is very difficult to manipulate an explosive at the gram level from 3 meters away.

But this underscores the most important point - if you are handling EM materials for all practical purposes there is no safe distance. You are working entirely in the danger zone. Safety lies in making sure the stuff you handle NEVER explodes.

That said, direct physical contact with any sort of sensitive material is strictly verboten. Manipulation systems made of paper, cardboard, cloth, soft rubber (but be wary of static electricity with most any polymer) that keep hands away from the material is essential.

[Edited on 9-9-2016 by careysub]

careysub - 9-9-2016 at 08:44

Quote: Originally posted by XeonTheMGPony

it is all math work, here is the pdf. Rule of thumb the further you are or the more stuff to absorb the energy the better.

when pressing caps I use dry towels wrapped around the press to absorb the shock wave and to dampen any shrapnel produced, cotton is a good acoustic absorber.

Comment about this file - the lowest blast injury level given is
"0.35 kg/cm2. Minimal distance of possible rupture of tympanic membranes."
It is important to realize that membrane rupture is the maximally severe form of hearing injury - hearing loss injury starts at much lower pressure levels.

Plugging 0.001 kg (one gram) and one meter into the Sadowsky formula gives an overpressure of 0.118 kg/cm2, far more than enough to break a window (0.05 kg/cm3 given as the level for this), and certainly hazardous to hearing.

James Ikanov - 9-9-2016 at 10:06

Somewhat differing from the main topic, where would something like nitrogen-tri-iodide fall in this equation?

It's obviously never going to get to much more than a few grams (I'm bad at estimating things) but how brisant might a novelty like that be compared to, say, flash or blackpowder? I'm under the impression the usual demonstration amounts are too small to do much and that it's a rather wimpy explosive anyway, but I figured I'd ask since I can't find too much on its VOD or such.

careysub - 9-9-2016 at 12:09

Quote: Originally posted by James Ikanov

Somewhat differing from the main topic, where would something like nitrogen-tri-iodide fall in this equation?

It's obviously never going to get to much more than a few grams (I'm bad at estimating things) but how brisant might a novelty like that be compared to, say, flash or blackpowder? I'm under the impression the usual demonstration amounts are too small to do much and that it's a rather wimpy explosive anyway, but I figured I'd ask since I can't find too much on its VOD or such.

A few grams is excessive for a first attempt. Try 0.5 grams.

The Royal Society of Chemistry has a safe demonstration procedure:

http://www.rsc.org/Education/EiC/issues/2010May/ExhibitionCh...

A key point with this substance - after it is prepared, it is not sensitive as long as it is still wet. It must be laid out for demonstration detonation, and decontamination at once, and never disturbed again until exploded and decontaminated.

Rewetting it to render it insensitive again is an unreliable procedure.

If we use Wikipedia's decomposition energy for complete decomposition:
2 NI3 (s) → N2 (g) + 3 I2 (g) (−290 kJ/mol)
it is about 1/6 as energetic as TNT, and one of the weakest explosives known.

[Edited on 9-9-2016 by careysub]

[Edited on 9-9-2016 by careysub]

Tricka90 - 9-9-2016 at 14:21

Thank you everybody for all the replys.
The formulas and documents you posted are very useful, the problem is they don't seem applicable to small quantities of primary explosives:

Quote:

From this it would give the safe distance of 3 meters for one gram

I'm not expert but we all can agree for such distance to be extremely conservative (unless the explosive is confined in a material which can unleash dangerous fragments when exploding).

Quote:

if you are handling EM materials for all practical purposes there is no safe distance. You are working entirely in the danger zone. Safety lies in making sure the stuff you handle NEVER explodes.

Well, I agree with you, but I think in some cases one can withstand a detonation without getting hurt if there's a proper gap between the explosive and his hand. In such cases a safe minimum distance does exist and is also very important. For example when handling less than 100mg SADS in order to manufacture a blasting cap no permanent damage to the hands would occur if a gap of a few tens of centimeters exists. Otherwise the damage could be serious, so I say it would be reasonable to evaluate and respect a safe minimum distance in those cases. At least that's what I feel fair to say considering my very short practical experience on the subject, so it's possible I'm wrong.
Also I can't completely rely on the fact that doing all things properly means no detonation will ever occur. I think I can't be 100% sure so I'm always prepared for an explosion.
As for the hearing protection I think it would be very stupid to lose the hearing because of unespected detonation, considering that having ear plugs always on is easy, cheap and doesn't hinder one's ability to handle the substance (as it does maintaining a safe distance, which is often unfeasible).

[Edited on 10-9-2016 by Tricka90]

stoichiometric_steve - 9-9-2016 at 15:07

Is there a quick way to distinguish acetic anhydride from acetic acid or from a mixture of both the anhydride and acid?

PHILOU Zrealone - 10-9-2016 at 14:09

Quote: Originally posted by stoichiometric_steve

Is there a quick way to distinguish acetic anhydride from acetic acid or from a mixture of both the anhydride and acid?

Metallic zinc will set H2 gas free with acetic acid owing to available proton.Acetic anhydride should remain inert towards the naked metal.
For the mix maybe density or boiling point may be of some use.

Metacelsus - 10-9-2016 at 14:23

Acetic acid is miscible with water. Acetic anhydride is not (but does react with it). You could add a drop of the unknown to a small amount of cold water, and see if it's homogeneous. The zinc idea is also good, and you could probably use other metals too.

[Edited on 9-10-2016 by Metacelsus]

RDX plasticiser

Gemlingur - 13-9-2016 at 03:45

I made a small batch of RDX by the E process. Now I've been reading about the additional stuff you put in it to make it plastic, and tbh I'm not really in the mood to get hold of all that stuff. So I was wondering, would it be possible to use something as simple as xanthan gum or dextring or something alike?

Fulmen - 13-9-2016 at 05:05

Oil or wax does the trick. Try making a dummy compound with sugar, salt or whatever inert you have that matches the particle size and see what you think. A few (perhaps 5) percent of wax should phlegmatize the RDX, it won't be plastic but well suited for pressed charges. 10% heavy oil should produce a putty-like plastic. Not as nice as PIB-based compounds but it will work just fine.

James Ikanov - 13-9-2016 at 08:16

What exactly is this "heavy oil" you refer to?

Serious question, google just gives me some real generic stuff. Is it a motor oil, some sort of specific brand or something?

Fulmen - 13-9-2016 at 08:19

Any thick oil. Motor oil works, but my favorite is chain saw lubrication. You could also try grease.

ETN or Picric Acid as my first secondary synthesis?

Tricka90 - 13-9-2016 at 14:04

After gaining some experience with the manufacture of primaries I'm going to try and make my first secondary. I finally decided to either make ETN or Picric Acid since I have all the ingredients available. What of them would you suggest to a beginner? ETN seems easier to make, but it's also an extremely sensitive secondary. On the other hand Picric Acid synthesis is a bit harder and it's also toxic but his sensitivity is very low.
So what do you think is the right choice to start experimenting with secondaries?

[Edited on 13-9-2016 by Tricka90]

NeonPulse - 13-9-2016 at 17:17

Picric acid is definitely harder and will make dangerous fumes. It is also a hot nitration and gas several steps. Not really a beginners synthesis. I would do ETN or even Nitrocellulose first to get a feel do how a nitration goes. My two cents.

careysub - 13-9-2016 at 17:22

Quote: Originally posted by NeonPulse

Picric acid is definitely harder and will make dangerous fumes. It is also a hot nitration and gas several steps. Not really a beginners synthesis. I would do ETN or even Nitrocellulose first to get a feel do how a nitration goes. My two cents.

Zephyr - 13-9-2016 at 19:04

Quote: Originally posted by careysub

Quote: Originally posted by NeonPulse

Nice! I did it recently also. So far I've been storing it dry in a glass jar with a plastic cap, how do you all store your's? Is the water necessary?

Gemlingur - 14-9-2016 at 00:20

Quote: Originally posted by Gemlingur

I made a small batch of RDX by the E process. Now I've been reading about the additional stuff you put in it to make it plastic, and tbh I'm not really in the mood to get hold of all that stuff. So I was wondering, would it be possible to use something as simple as xanthan gum or dextring or something alike?

Tested it out with salt instead of RDX, about a seventh of total volume was xanthan, it started out as a very moldable kind of a thick, fibrous ice cream, but when left to dry it started depositing either xanthan or salt at the edges, and wouldn't join itself when folded. Next test will be with varying amounts of xanthan, and then some petroleum jelly to see how that changes things. Making xanthan gum first and then trying to knead the salt in proved unsuccessful.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 14-9-2016 at 03:10

When you're will be in the mood, go to the electro store and buy self-vulcanizing tape. All those things are 3: gasoline, oil and tape.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBK-NR4suEE
This tape = end of worry with plastification anything.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SCAPA-2501-Quality-Self-Amalgamat...

Dr... :cool:

Maker - 14-9-2016 at 06:20

Is there any way of quantifying the 'strength' of a solvent? And if so, what are some of the strongest?

Bert - 14-9-2016 at 18:27

Quote: Originally posted by Maker

Is there any way of quantifying the 'strength' of a solvent? And if so, what are some of the strongest?

You would need to be more specific as to your material of interest. What do you want to dissolve? And why?

Maker - 15-9-2016 at 09:23

Quote: Originally posted by Bert

Quote: Originally posted by Maker

Is there any way of quantifying the 'strength' of a solvent? And if so, what are some of the strongest?

You would need to be more specific as to your material of interest. What do you want to dissolve? And why?

I didn't have a specific material in mind, just a general wondering.

kratomiter - 15-9-2016 at 13:59

Quote: Originally posted by Tricka90

After gaining some experience with the manufacture of primaries I'm going to try and make my first secondary. I finally decided to either make ETN or Picric Acid since I have all the ingredients available. What of them would you suggest to a beginner? ETN seems easier to make, but it's also an extremely sensitive secondary. On the other hand Picric Acid synthesis is a bit harder and it's also toxic but his sensitivity is very low.
So what do you think is the right choice to start experimenting with secondaries?

[Edited on 13-9-2016 by Tricka90]

I don't find the synthesis of Picric Acid from ASA that difficult, but if you don't wanna deal with high temperatures and still want to make a nitrophenol, try with trinitrophloroglucinol if phloroglucinol is available for you. Synthesis is perfomed at 0ºC and yields are good (look at Studies on 2,4,6-trinitrophloroglucinol (TNPG)⎯A novel flash sensitizer).

[Edited on 15-9-2016 by kratomiter]

NeonPulse - 15-9-2016 at 17:47

I would say also the synthesis of TNP is not really that hard, but for experienced people. It's not really a beginners one and although Rosco bodine's picric acid procedure is detailed enough so even a layman can get it, if you have zero experience with synthesis of energetics I wouldn't do this as the first one. ETN is easier to make and more powerful it is also less dangerous with only nitric vapour to worry about rather than copious amounts of potentially deadly fumes and hot acid.

Bert - 15-9-2016 at 22:15

ETN first, IMHO. I did personally make trinitrophenol before ETN, as Axt on the old E&W forum had not yet directed the amateur chemistry community towards the newly available erythritol feed stock & original patent information when I first got the interest to perform such operatuons- also nitroglycerin and nitrocellulose as a highschool kid, long before the advent of "windows" and the general public venturing out onto the WWW.

Bert - 21-9-2016 at 11:27

Somewhere in the energetic materials forum, there is attached to a post a blasting cap diagram (patent drawing?) that details a cap with a small, pyrotechnicaly driven flyer with electric ignition which strikes a secondary explosive, rather than using a HV discharge or a standard primary. As far as I can recall, the propellant for the flyer was nitrocellulose-

I had downloaded this to my old iphone, but do not seem to have saved it to my desktop- and that phone is now dead.

Ring a bell with anyone?

Related question- What is the highest "flyer" velocity that you know of anyone achieving with a deflagreting solid propellant system, rather than driven by a detonation. Ideally without needing something, (expensive, non disposable!) like a taper bore, or other complex, heavy metal fabrication?

[Edited on 21-9-2016 by Bert]

James Ikanov - 21-9-2016 at 12:19

This sounds a bit like a poor man's slapper detonator?
I haven't seen that specific setup....

When you say "non-detonating propellant" do you mean just the igniter or the entire assembly?? I assume the first....

If I was up for making speculation I have a relatively unused (and untested) mixture that might be very good for launching a flyer pretty effectively...... but I don't know of anything tested.

Honestly I see no reason why you couldn't just start with a slightly scaled up blasting cap assembly and a metal plug? Eg, a small amount of loose secondary at the bottom (possibly with a sensitizer), a ball bearing (of as close as possible to internal diameter of the tube), some NC or flash, then your initiator (fuse or wires) then crimp it? But that's rather vague....

Apologies if I seem rather useless.

careysub - 21-9-2016 at 12:44

Quote: Originally posted by Zephyr

I found the Bodine procedure for picric acid straightforward and reliable - did it outside and was careful about the fumes. (I just wanted a little for an amine isolation reagent.)[/rquote]

Nice! I did it recently also. So far I've been storing it dry in a glass jar with a plastic cap, how do you all store your's? Is the water necessary?

The usual procedure is to store with 20% water by mass. That is what I do. And I store it in a PLASTIC jar. Don't use glass.

[Edited on 21-9-2016 by careysub]

kratomiter - 21-9-2016 at 13:37

One system for detonation without a primary would be injecting sulfuric acid into R-salt (I didn't try it personally but it's suposed to work).

MineMan - 21-9-2016 at 16:24

Quote: Originally posted by Bert

Somewhere in the energetic materials forum, there is attached to a post a blasting cap diagram (patent drawing?) that details a cap with a small, pyrotechnicaly driven flyer with electric ignition which strikes a secondary explosive, rather than using a HV discharge or a standard primary. As far as I can recall, the propellant for the flyer was nitrocellulose-

I had downloaded this to my old iphone, but do not seem to have saved it to my desktop- and that phone is now dead.

Ring a bell with anyone?

Related question- What is the highest "flyer" velocity that you know of anyone achieving with a deflagreting solid propellant system, rather than driven by a detonation. Ideally without needing something, (expensive, non disposable!) like a taper bore, or other complex, heavy metal fabrication?

[Edited on 21-9-2016 by Bert]

I am very interested in this also, thank you for bringing this up Bert.

There is a youtube video where a man achieves 2000-3000fps using a 22rifle, 22 nailgun blank, and 22 pellet. This should be able to detonate tannerite, as a 17HMR reportedly does. There can't be more than a half a gram of nitro cellulose in a 22 blank. Maybe 2-3 grams of NC could due this without a barrel? I am wondering is a low velocity shape charge could work with a pyrotechnic mixture? all wee need is 3000fps...

James Ikanov - 23-9-2016 at 10:52

I can anecdotally say that low explosives such as flash are capable of producing "heaving" or "pushing" pressures when arranged in a shaped charge.

Several years ago I used a thin aluminum foil liner cone and a charge of a few grams (around 20?) to completely invert a bottle cap

It won't splinter metal or such, but it sure can output a lot of force.

MineMan - 1-10-2016 at 18:30

All,

I heard that titanium metal is excellent (the best...) for sensitizing AN... even better than Al. The finest titanium powder I could find was 325mesh atomized. I tried ballmill this for a few days in one of those rock tumblers with ball bearings... it did nothing.

This Ti seems useless as it does not coat the prills and it is spherical... any idea on reducing the particle size, or where I could buy Ti that is a few microns? I doubt a mortar and pestle, would work, as it did not Mg. How about buying Ti sponge and trying to grind that?

Zephyr - 1-10-2016 at 19:08

Quote: Originally posted by MineMan

All,

I heard that titanium metal is excellent (the best...) for sensitizing AN... even better than Al. The finest titanium powder I could find was 325mesh atomized. I tried ballmill this for a few days in one of those rock tumblers with ball bearings... it did nothing.

This Ti seems useless as it does not coat the prills and it is spherical... any idea on reducing the particle size, or where I could buy Ti that is a few microns? I doubt a mortar and pestle, would work, as it did not Mg. How about buying Ti sponge and trying to grind that?

What's wrong with using carbon? Titanium might be a bit better, but it is definitely much pricier.

Bert - 2-10-2016 at 04:55

You might want to consider using non metalic sensitizers.

As an unlicensed person, storage should not be of concern, and from personal experience, the "Boomer Shoot" mixture of AN with Potassium chlorate and ethylene glycol is at LEAST as sensitive as genuine Tannerite binary to initiation by a centerfire rifle bullet. It is also CHEAPER, with a good record for both consistency in performance and (relative) safety in handling. A group of dedicated amateurs have made litterally tons of it every Spring for some years now, with no issues.

Boomershoot.org project glycol:

http://www.boomershoot.org/general/EG.htm

Quote:

Here is our maximum sensitivity mix:

1500 Grams Ammonium Nitrate. Prilled, not ground.
400 Grams Potassium Chlorate. 200 mesh powder.
3 tablespoons Ethylene Glycol. Cheap antifreeze with few or no preservatives.

Mix the EG with the AN until thoroughly blended.

Mix in the PC.

It will look very much like mixed curd size cottage cheese.

Seal in airtight containers.

Do not pack! The mixture must be slightly fluffy to detonate easily.

A mix of AN with about 15% ammonium perchlorate, 2% Potassium thiocyanide and 5% ethylene glycol might be interesting as well, but has no where near the long history of the Boomer Shoot mixture.

You could consider thiourea as a sensitizer as well... I suggest you keep quantities SMALL and be particularly careful if you do try thiourea, as I have no personal experience with this sensitizer- Gary Purrington apparently DOES, and feels it is worth considering. Gary is no fool and quite experienced in energetics work.

Thiourea: http://www.firefox-fx.com/ChemT.htm

Zephyr: Carbon as a pure element does not seem to provide sensitivity to initiation by bullet impact, which seems to be mineman's interest.

[Edited on 2-10-2016 by Bert]

MineMan - 2-10-2016 at 07:48

Bert,

I really appreciate your reply's, they are top notch! Yes, I was aware of the boomershoot formula, but I was uneasy about the mixture forming ammonium chlorate, even in the ten minutes it would sit on my truck tailgate...

But from what you are saying it definitely seems that it has stood the test of use from the boomershot people... I did not know they had made that much!

I don't know what Potassium thiocyanide is, but I was looking at firefox last night and saw the description for thiourea and it peaked my interest.

Yes, I am tired of my homemade mixes not being sensitive enough to rifle fire. A few days ago I tried 3%Al (2micron) 3%Mg (5micron), 5% NM and the rest AN powder with microballoons added. The mixture did not even spark from several glazes and 2 direct hits from a 223 at 50 yards (it was a small 150 grammer). Pretty frustrating...

Bert - 2-10-2016 at 14:26

For rifle targets:

If you are not using chlorate- I suggest you leave out the nitromethane, use AN of low density in prilled form. Also leave out the microballoons, just don't pack it down.

Most of the sensitization work Joe did for Boomer Shoot is due to a desire to shoot those targets out to 600 yards, they hold a long range rifle clinic and work out to that distance, where just about any common rifle caliber is getting down well bellow 2,000 fps. They consider a target sensitive enough if CCI Stinger .22 LR out of a rifle explodes it at (way too few for my taste) yards-

Read ALL the Boomershoot development projects, Joe tried several routes to the final recipe. And subsequently, he did ageing tests out to a week or more that showed even if the targets were relatively safe and did not spontaneously combust, they did lose sensitivity if stored more than a couple of days.

MineMan - 2-10-2016 at 16:13

Ok, I will read all of his test, but yes I would like mine to go boom from a 22 stinger also. Why leave out the microballons and NM? Also, the AN I have is fertilizer grade, the prills average 2-3mm, and are solid. So even after activation the density is still .85g/cm3

This gentlemen was able to detonate ANNMAL with .2grams of SADS! He stated that his ratio (in one of the since deleted comments) was 5%NM, 5%Al flake (2micron I think), 10% Al automotive paint flake grade, 80%AN.

Also, the AN I have is fertilizer grade, the prills average 2-3mm, and are solid. So even after activation the density is still .85g/cm3

I have been unable to replicate these results with .2grams of SADS, but yes, I would like the most sensitive mix possible, that is safe, as that also give the option of more reliability with bullets, and with smaller caps...

Does anyone know if that youtuber is a forum member here, or was?

Tricka90 - 3-10-2016 at 05:08

Do you think is safe to accumulate large quantities of ETN, like 10 to 100 grams ? What do you think is the maximum quantity of ETN you should not overstep (and use a tertiary like AN mixtures instead) ?

OneEyedPyro - 6-10-2016 at 00:41

Quote: Originally posted by Tricka90

Do you think is safe to accumulate large quantities of ETN, like 10 to 100 grams ? What do you think is the maximum quantity of ETN you should not overstep (and use a tertiary like AN mixtures instead) ?

Larger quantities don't necessarily equate to greater chances of accidental detonation but rather greater consequences if it does detonate.
Even then small quantities are dangerous, a single gram could basically remove your hand or blind you.

As far as storing large quantities of ETN. When properly purified and stabilized with an acid scrubber like urea it's very storage stable, if kept wet it would take a substantial mishap to cause an accidental detonation.
One could divide the wetted ETN between multiple containers and keep them far enough apart to prevent sympathetic detonations. Under those conditions any quantity would be reasonably safe to accumulate.

Brom - 6-10-2016 at 06:05

Mineman, i think your problem is the fertilizer grade AN. I use low density micro prills and 5 micron spherical aluminum powder and have never had a failed detonation. I also add nitromethane sometimes with no problem.

Shockwaves enter a piece of metal, at what speed will they move?

Gargamel - 6-10-2016 at 14:52

Sorry I could not thing of a proper subject title. Please just read the post

Following hypothetical situation:

I'd like to compare several different energetic compounds by the dents they leave on a witness plate, made from steel.

I want to shoot all of them simultaniously via detcord.

Lets say 4 charges are maybe 40cm apart from each other.

Lets assume the 4 charges have a Vdet of about 3000m/s

Lets assume the detcord has a Vdet of about 5500m/s

Variant A:
The detcord is initiated and then runs from one charge to the next.

Variant B:
The detcord is initiated and divided into 4 individual strings that are cut to give exactly the same length to every charge.

In practice, with practically feasible tolerances, even with Variant B the charges wont fire exactly at the same time.

I wonder if this will cause the shockwaves of the faster ones to hit the slower ones in a way that their alignment on the witness plate will be changed, possibly in a way that their dents will be affected and thus the results will deviate...?

Can I assume that the shockwave travelling through the air will be slower enough / will slow down enough compared to the detcord and my test samples, in order not to rock them from their alignment early?

And:
If the first shockwave enters the steel - at what speed will it travel through it?
What is relevant, the speed of sound in Steel, around 5000m/s, or rather the speed of my samples, around 3000m/s?

Do you think the plate will start moving from the first hit in a way that the other samples will be thrown from their places before they can transfer their own shockwave into the metal?

MineMan - 6-10-2016 at 15:14

Huh... If I add to much nitro they catch on fire... kind of a pain because you cant approach it to set it off!

I agree, but I grind it up and add microballoons....

anyways, I have activated the AN prills twice and lowered the density from 1.0 to .63, I have yet to do test.

Firefox told me that air space is essential, and microballoons cannot replace the airspace in between prills. I just don't get this... it does not make any sense. Emulsion explosives are at a density of 1.2 and they go off every time with a cap, they use microballoons....

MineMan - 6-10-2016 at 15:27

You should be fine in all senerios. I do not envision any constructive or constructive shock wave interference...

Tricka90 - 9-10-2016 at 01:50

How can you calculate how much primary and secondary (booster) are needed to properly detonate a given amount of tertiary (like an AN mixture such as AmmonAl, ANFO etc.)?
For example, if you want to detonate 1kg of AmmonAl how would you evaluate how many grams of booster (taking into account his initiating efficiency of course) and primary are needed?
Is there at least any good rule of thumb?

MineMan - 9-10-2016 at 09:52

Tricka,

I have thumbed through many books on mining and civil explosives, and I cannot say that I have ever seen such an equation.

First, your question makes me have a few more questions... when you ask for the amount of primary and secondary... you should already know how much primary you need.

Your best bet is to read patents and look at other posts on here to see what members did...

ANFO... I am not sure why you would want to do ANFO.... it is quite insensitive, and when it is sensitive, it is at a low density. There are probably better fuels than Diesel....

Shockwaves enter a piece of metal, at what speed will they move?

Gargamel - 9-10-2016 at 11:19

@Tricka:
You can initiate an infinite amount of Ammonal with a standard 800mg PETN output equipped blasting cap. If it will initiate 1Kg, it will also do 1000Kg.

@Mineman: Are you sure?

Any more opinions on my question above?

greenlight - 9-10-2016 at 11:48

I have never seen an equation regarding primary amounts either.
The closest thing to you question is that you can choose the size detonator that is required from #1 to #8. No.8 being the strongest with something like 2 g secondary base charge which should detonate any explosive deemed detonatable without requirement for a booster. I agree with gargamels example as well.

ANFO is certainly not the best in regards to performance and sensitivity to a cap and doesnt really excel in much other than breaking up rock into manageable pieces in mining nowadays or maybe blowing stumps.
I would definitely be adding a booster in there to ensure high order detonation of the main charge if I was using it.
There are much better fuels like nitromethane and when I was young and used to use ANNM a 1 gram cap used to reliably detonate it every time.

Tricka90 - 9-10-2016 at 12:48

Thanks a lot MineMan, Gargamel and greenlight for all the quick and very informative replies.

@MineMan:
Lately I've been watching lots of AmmonAl detonation videos on Youtube and I came up with a general and somewhat conservative rule of thumb: to detonate 1 mass unit of AmmonAl, about 0.01 mass units of secondary are needed. For example, to detonate 1kg AmmonAl 10g ETN should be used. I know it doesn't make much sense (it assumes all secondaries are equivalent and their required quantity is proportional to the tertiary's), but the vast majority of detonations I saw on Youtube seems to agree with that rule.

@Gargamel:
That's very interesting! That means one should not worry about calculating the amount of secondary for a given mass of AmmonAl since about 1gr PETN would work for every quantity, I'm happy to know that.

@greenlight:
Yes, I know ANNM and ANNMAl are way more sensitive and efficient, the problem is Nitromethane sale has been banned some years ago in my country so I won't be able to use it... For now I'm just going to study AmmonAl and gain as much information as I can about it.

greenlight - 10-10-2016 at 01:31

@Tricka90, you should be able to distill nitromethane from remote control car fuel if you have that in your country. It contains methanol, nitromethane and castor oil.
The methanol will come over at 65 C and the nitromethane at 100 C. Should be easy to seperate.
Definitely would be worth a look at if you want an quite powerful easy to detonate AN-based explosive. VOD around 5000 - 6000m/s I think compared to Ammonals 4400m/s.

[Edited on 10-10-2016 by greenlight]

Tricka90 - 10-10-2016 at 12:36

Quote: Originally posted by greenlight

you should be able to distill nitromethane from remote control car fuel...

That's great I didn't know that, thanks a lot! I'll definitely try that solution.
For now I'm very interested in trying to succeed in detonating AmmonAl, which is going to be easier than I thought since less than a gram of high efficiency secondary should be enough to detonate virtually any amount, as Gargamel said.
Then I'll try with AN and nitromethane mixtures, if I'll succeed in properly detonating AmmonAl I think detonating ANNM or ANNMAl would be piece of cake I think.

Cryolite. - 11-10-2016 at 18:38

I recently purchased some dicyandiamide for conversion to tetrazole derivatives. However, I would like to avoid the explicit handling of azide salts. Since the reaction of calcium cyanamide and hydrazine sulfate produces aminoguanidine, but the reaction of dicyandiamide and hydrazine produces a mixture of products, is there a straightforward way to convert cyanamide's dimer to its calcium salt? Maybe treating it with a base work work, or would that make melamine instead?

nitro-genes - 13-10-2016 at 01:05

Maybe this is of help?

Attachment: Dicyandiamide hydrolysis.pdf (633kB)
This file has been downloaded 2030 times

kratomiter - 14-10-2016 at 06:22

Quote: Originally posted by nitro-genes

Maybe this is of help?

Thank you for the paper, it will be interesting to find a route to aminoguanidine from cyanoguanidine, avoiding hydrazoic acid at all cost.

@Cryolite. Take a look to guanazole derivatives like HDNT and its salts.

greenlight - 15-10-2016 at 10:08

I was just trying to figure out something and maybe someone could shed some light on it.

Out of PETN plastic explosive and ETN plastic explosive, which would be more suitable for shaped charges and would afford the most power?

PETN has a higher VOD by 300m/s than ETN but needs a higher density of 1.70 compared to ETN's 1.60 to acheive it's maximum velocity. So ETN will catch up a little with a PE of the same density comprising PETN?

Secondly PETN has a negative oxygen balance while ETN has a positive OB. ETN has oxygen left over to burn up the binder and plasticizer inerts thus a higher VOD again?

I might be missing something here, but does PETN still win in the performance department when talking about plastic-bonded explosives or do these factor make ETN level up?

MineMan - 15-10-2016 at 16:01

I don't like how touchy ETN is... I would go with PETN.

Also, new research shows that thier VOD is the same... 8400m/s

Higher density is always better because Det pressure depends on it.

Dornier 335A - 16-10-2016 at 01:18

Greenlight, ETN and PETN have pretty much the same detonation velocity at a given density. PETN has a higher density of 1.77 g/cc compared to 1.72 g/cm3 for ETN which results in some 200 m/s higher maximum detonation velocity.

The extra oxygen in ETN is used to burn the binders to release some additional energy. I don't know when it is burned though - if it is in the primary reaction zone just behind the shock wave (unlikely), it will increase detonation velocity somewhat. Otherwise it will not affect shaped charge performance.

greenlight - 16-10-2016 at 21:14

Thanks for the input mineman and dornier.
So it seems that they are quite even but PETN takes the lead in the sensitivity area.
You are most likely right, the combustion of the binder/plasticizer would probably be a secondary reaction and wouldn't make much difference to the performance of the charge.

ecos - 17-10-2016 at 11:38

so the excess oxygen in ETN was not useful at all ?

MineMan - 17-10-2016 at 12:47

well,

In this report they showed that if the Al is sized right it does react in time to help with brisance and gurny velocity. So yes it can be useful. The fact the Al hurts the VOD is also (kind of) a myth is the particles are sized correctly.

and.. http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2012IMEM/13890anderson10B.pdf

Attachment: Combined Effects.pdf (1.8MB)
This file has been downloaded 593 times

Dornier 335A - 18-10-2016 at 04:06

Not brisance. Aluminium does not react at the CJ-point and therefore won't increase detonation velocity or pressure. Fine aluminium can however react quickly enough afterwards to increase Gurney velocity and cylinder expansion performance. This won't help in shaped charges though.

PHILOU Zrealone - 19-10-2016 at 08:30

Quote: Originally posted by ecos

so the excess oxygen in ETN was not useful at all ?

It may be if the binder is active (detonating explosive material also) and if mixed at a molecular level.
If molten ETN dissolves PETN, then you may get an intermediary mix with better output energy and detonic parameters than both explosives appart.

If molten ETN dissolves nitrocellulose like NG or EGDN does; then the resulting hard wax will be hell of a blasting wax (hard gel).

MineMan - 19-10-2016 at 12:07

Melting it with wax, could that come pretty close to a molecular mixture?

PHILOU Zrealone - 19-10-2016 at 12:56

Quote: Originally posted by MineMan

Melting it with wax, could that come pretty close to a molecular mixture?

If during the melting one becomes a solvent for the other compound...than YES!

But wax is by nature CxHy (and sometimes with a few Oz) so a fuel of low density... It is normaly 100% apolar and hydrophobic...

ETN is hydrophobic but slightly polar... wax would decrease its density but benefit a little for the output energy since opposits OB may compensate.

PETN is hydrophobic and apolar but also with a <0 OB so adding wax will make it worst and reduce its density aswel.

I was speaking of mixing PETN or NC (<0 OB) and ETN (>0 OB).
In all aspects PETN and NC are better than wax.

Maybe I was misunderstood by refering to "wax" for the consistency and low melting point of the ETN mixed HE --> waxy.

[Edited on 19-10-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]

Homemade blasting cap for Ammonal

JefLeb - 21-10-2016 at 01:38

Hello everyone.
I've been looking for the answers to my questions in the forum and I found some useful informations, even in this same thread, but I'm still not sure about something:
I would like to ask you whether or not a blasting cap made of 750mg Silver Acetylide Double Salts and 1g ETN would be sufficient to properly initialize 1kg Ammonal charge (95% AN and 5% Al).
The primary and secondary charges of the cap are the same as the one in the following video, but the amounts and ratio between them are different.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkfiKlYDxno

Thank you and have a nice day.
Jeffrey

Lotilko - 21-10-2016 at 07:03

I believe it should work, SASD has good initiating properties and ETN is a decent booster, so yes.

As always, one can add a little sensitizer like NM, but if you don't have it, it's fine.

XeonTheMGPony - 21-10-2016 at 08:18

Aluminium IS the sensitize, Nm would just be more of a density modifier in this case.

As I said in PM, there is allot more to consider then just the cap, as grain size, loading density, diameter all effect what is needed for a good strong reliable det and whether you will need a booster or not.

Tin man - 21-10-2016 at 15:33

I would recommend using a much smaller amount of SA.DS. 50 mg SA.DS pressed On top of 100 mg of recrystallized ETN in a coffee stirrer straw should create a reliable det. this is placed in a plastic tube of the diameter 5 millimeters. 1 gram of ETN is pressed with light pressure into the tube. The end should be sealed with electrical tape, or any adhesive that is compatible with ETN.

Hope This helps!

MineMan - 21-10-2016 at 17:49

750mg of SADS... way too much, listen to Tin Man. Also make your SADS properly and make sure it does not come into contact with sunlight.

Somewhere in this forum I posted an NPED with just ETN that works quite well.

perchlorate cheddite

CD4060 - 22-10-2016 at 17:14

Is it possible to make a binary explosive (low brisance) of K-perchlorate and an organic reductor? I know that generally ternary compounds are used w/ aromatic nitro compounds and with chlorate instead of perchlorate but I only have hold of K-perchlorate (a lot) as inorganic oxidizer.
I have already SA/DS -> PETN as initiator (raw materials excess).
I have tried to find information on the forum using TFSE but could not find any clarity... I am afraid KClO4 is too stable...

[Edited on 23-10-2016 by CD4060]

[Edited on 23-10-2016 by CD4060]

[Edited on 23-10-2016 by CD4060]

MineMan - 23-10-2016 at 18:49

Can you get sodium perchlorate, that will work... don't know about K perchlorate.

CD4060 - 24-10-2016 at 04:53

Unfortunately not because it's from pyrotechnic supplier where only potassium is used.

MineMan - 24-10-2016 at 10:37

hmm, guess you will just have to give it a go and let us know!

Binary Liquid Deflagration or Detonation

MineMan - 24-10-2016 at 10:48

Hello all,

I have been experimenting with flash powder quite a bit and had a few ideas or questions.

Are there any stable binary liquid mixes that deflagerate (or preferably detonate) at the same speed or faster as flash powder when ignited by a fuse?

If both components are liquid than a very intimate mix would evolve, probably forcing the mix to detonation I am guessing (like Dorniers Nano Flash).

I guess the key word is stable, I think H2O2 mixtures can do this, but can they be handled predictably and safely? Do you think NM could be mixed with another material to undergo DDT from a fuse?

JefLeb - 24-10-2016 at 12:01

Thank you for all the replies.
Tin man, I'm sorry, I didn't understand how the coffee straw and the plastic tube are arranged to make the detonator.
I tried making a little drawing, is this the layout you had in mind?
The coffee straw is in red whereas the plastic tube is blue.

Fulmen - 24-10-2016 at 12:31

No such deflagration is possible, that would require a detonation.

A powered pyrotechnic mixture has airspace that allow the combustion to propagate through the powder, if pressed to a solid pellet the burn rate will be in the order of mm's to cm's per second. A liquid lacks the air space unless you turn it into an aerosol or a foam.

Tin man - 24-10-2016 at 13:33

Yes, sorta. In my mind the blue tube would be longer than the red one. The coffee straw might be 1.5 centimeters, and the blue tube would be 4 centimeters. But it doesn't have to be exact.
Feel free to PM me questions as well.

nitro-genes - 24-10-2016 at 14:39

NM with hydrazine may form some hydrazinium nitromethanate, methazonate or reaction products thereof, which reportedly are very reactive/explosive. If they are soluble enough in the NM a fuse sensitive mix might result (unlikely though) Couldn't find much about the products formed of mixing NM and hydrazine, which may be interesting in itself. Organo metallic compounds might also produce sensitive liquid mixtures with oxidizer, though since many are pyroforic/hypergolic very impractical probably.

[Edited on 24-10-2016 by nitro-genes]

Bert - 24-10-2016 at 17:22

Quote:

Are there any stable binary liquid mixes that deflagerate (or preferably detonate) at the same speed or faster as flash powder when ignited by a fuse?

Stability is in the eye of the beholder... How long, what storage conditions?

Yes, plenty of room temperature and various cryogenic temperature possibilities come to mind. Google for Sprengel explosives. Plus, check for the Oxyliquits, liquid O2 with just about anything flammable.

Rosco Bodine - 24-10-2016 at 20:40

Quote: Originally posted by nitro-genes

NM with hydrazine may form some hydrazinium nitromethanate, methazonate or reaction products thereof, which reportedly are very reactive/explosive. If they are soluble enough in the NM a fuse sensitive mix might result (unlikely though) Couldn't find much about the products formed of mixing NM and hydrazine, which may be interesting in itself. Organo metallic compounds might also produce sensitive liquid mixtures with oxidizer, though since many are pyroforic/hypergolic very impractical probably.

[Edited on 24-10-2016 by nitro-genes]

IMO nitromethane would be reduced by hydrazine to methylamine

JefLeb - 25-10-2016 at 02:55

Thank you Tin man.
So the layout would be as in the following figure?

Or maybe this way?

[Edited on 25-10-2016 by JefLeb]

yobbo II - 25-10-2016 at 06:44

The was a mixture used during WWI or was it II that consisted of carbon disulphite and something (Nitrious oxide). They were placed into a two compartement tank and when the tank fell off the aeroplane there was a propeller on the tank which opened a door between (agitated too) the substanced mixed and when it hit the ground it went kaboom.

MineMan - 25-10-2016 at 08:55

Quote: Originally posted by Bert

Quote:

Are there any stable binary liquid mixes that deflagerate (or preferably detonate) at the same speed or faster as flash powder when ignited by a fuse?

Hmm. Storage stability, I would hope we would be looking at, at least a few days in varying temps. All of the options I hear seem to have extremely corrosive or toxic liquids. Bummer

Tin man - 25-10-2016 at 10:29

Jefleb, the second one is about right. The proportions are a bit off, I was thinking everything would be a bit narrower, but it should still work.
Happy blasting!

nitro-genes - 25-10-2016 at 12:27

Initially some nitronate salts are formed (US 2963507 A). Nitromethane sensitized by hydrazine is described as being reasonably stable. Also see: US 3980510 A, although the formed compunds are not tested. It would be hilarious if the remaining sensitizer after prolonged contact with hydrazine is actually methylamine though.

[Edited on 25-10-2016 by nitro-genes]

Rosco Bodine - 25-10-2016 at 22:33

Methylamine is the result when Nitromethane is in isopropanol reduced with aluminum amalgam (aluminum isopropoxide).
That reduction is instant and quantitative IIRC. With hydrazine as the reductant it appears to preferentially form an adduct with the nitroparaffin according to the patent.

[Edited on 10/26/2016 by Rosco Bodine]

XeonTheMGPony - 26-10-2016 at 07:49

Quote: Originally posted by JefLeb

Thank you Tin man.
So the layout would be as in the following figure?

Or maybe this way?

[Edited on 25-10-2016 by JefLeb]

The lower booster should be cast, and the cap should be 1gram pressed ETN should give you good result

Tin man - 26-10-2016 at 17:56

XeonTheMGpony: that would make a great blasting cap, but isn't casting large amounts ETN a little dangerous for someone new to energetic?

JefLeb - 31-10-2016 at 08:38

I'm sorry for the late, I've been very busy.
Thanks a lot for all your advices Tin man and XeonTheMGPony.
I've tried depicting the correct version of the detonator taking into account your recommendations. Do you think this one is correct? Or maybe I should put 1g ETN in the red cap instead of 100mg ETN? (I'm not sure whether or not XeonTheMGPony meant that)

NeonPulse - 31-10-2016 at 16:38

Just be sure to use a tube larger than the critical diameter for cast EFN. It was6 mm I think. Otherwise you will just end up with an under powered cap.

ill behaviour - 4-11-2016 at 08:06

I have a couple of questions to ask. If anyone can point me in the right direction it would be appreciated.
When using other nitrate salts in NM compositions when AN is not possible, for example potassium nitrate, as I understand it the gas production is reduced but is the VOD basically the same?
Can oxygen balance be achieved by simply adding or subtracting the known + or - oxygen balance, I thought I read that NM is -39.3 per 1g and PN is +47.5 per 1g is this correct.
When making a NM composition for maximum power would the nitrate salt or amine sensitized variety be preferred. The NM/nitrate would have a lot less NM content so I really confused about whether the NM confers its explosive properties to the entire weight of the nitrate or just takes the oxygen.

Thraxx - 15-11-2016 at 03:54

Hi,I would like to ask you,what you mean about the idea-
The Earl Warwicks Silly Putty, like plastificator.
Silly Putty invented 1943,composition of 65% dimethyl siloxane (hydroxy-terminated polymers with boric acid), 17% silica (crystalline quartz), 9% Thixatrol ST (castor oil derivative), 4% polydimethylsiloxane, 1% decamethyl cyclopentasiloxane, 1% glycerine, and 1% titanium dioxide.
The idea to use silly putty like plastificator was publlished by amateur author Exxtec(Pyroforum),which described how to make a detonable composition Silly Putty(28%)+Petn-RDX with spec.grav. 1,42 g/cm3.
One kind of this putty is full of Aluminium powder.And I think,that this kind of putty filled with Petn will under pressure of detonation react between SiO2 + Al==Al2O3 + Si.
Can you tell me please,1)if such composition could be good? 2) if there will be DINGU on the place of Petn/Rdx,then could this a bit acid putty be a stabilising factor for the Dingu?
Thank you Thraxx

[Edited on 15-10-2016 by Thraxx]

[Edited on 15-10-2016 by Thraxx]

PHILOU Zrealone - 15-11-2016 at 15:18

Quote: Originally posted by ill behaviour

I have a couple of questions to ask. If anyone can point me in the right direction it would be appreciated.
When using other nitrate salts in NM compositions when AN is not possible, for example potassium nitrate, as I understand it the gas production is reduced but is the VOD basically the same?
Can oxygen balance be achieved by simply adding or subtracting the known + or - oxygen balance, I thought I read that NM is -39.3 per 1g and PN is +47.5 per 1g is this correct.
When making a NM composition for maximum power would the nitrate salt or amine sensitized variety be preferred. The NM/nitrate would have a lot less NM content so I really confused about whether the NM confers its explosive properties to the entire weight of the nitrate or just takes the oxygen.

The OB is defined as a % and as such it is based on 100g not on 1!
The rule of additivity is not valid here because you are playing with % and to add a/100g + b/100g means a+b on a total of 200g!
Thus into a 1/1 weight basis mix.
Your NM+KNO3 would be (-39.3 +47.5)/200 = (+8.2/200) = +4.1% OB mix

For a more general rule you have to introduce also the relative % of each component.

In the case of a 3 component system:
OB_A = oxygen balance % of compound A
OB_B = oxygen balance % of compound B
OB_C = oxygen balance % of compound C
w_a = weight of compound A into x unit (for example g)
w_b = weight of compound B into x unit (for example g)
w_c = weight of compound C into x unit (for example g)

if:
1°) w_m = weight of the sum of compounds A,B and C into the mix (also into x unit (for example g)).
2°) OB_M = oxygen balance % of the mix A+B+C

then:
OB_M = OB_A*w_a/w_m + OB_B*w_b/w_m + OB_C*w_c/w_m

PHILOU Zrealone - 15-11-2016 at 16:01

Quote: Originally posted by Thraxx

Hi,I would like to ask you,what you mean about the idea-
The Earl Warwicks Silly Putty, like plastificator.
Silly Putty invented 1943,composition of 65% dimethyl siloxane (hydroxy-terminated polymers with boric acid), 17% silica (crystalline quartz), 9% Thixatrol ST (castor oil derivative), 4% polydimethylsiloxane, 1% decamethyl cyclopentasiloxane, 1% glycerine, and 1% titanium dioxide.
The idea to use silly putty like plastificator was publlished by amateur author Exxtec(Pyroforum),which described how to make a detonable composition Silly Putty(28%)+Petn-RDX with spec.grav. 1,42 g/cm3.
One kind of this putty is full of Aluminium powder.And I think,that this kind of putty filled with Petn will under pressure of detonation react between SiO2 + Al==Al2O3 + Si.
Can you tell me please,1)if such composition could be good? 2) if there will be DINGU on the place of Petn/Rdx,then could this a bit acid putty be a stabilising factor for the Dingu?
Thank you Thraxx

[Edited on 15-10-2016 by Thraxx]

[Edited on 15-10-2016 by Thraxx]

Like into many cases into the field of explosives, it is an unanswerable question without experimenting.
If I were you I would take contact with Exxtec from Pyroforum since he seems to have a practical knowledge of the platicizer in question.

I would avoid introducing much exogen compounds into an explosive mix ...simply remember that each added compound introduces a risk of side chemical(s) reaction(s), is a source of complexity into the understanding of the detonation proces and may thus be a cause of storage unstability.

The role of the boric acid is probably the same as into polyhydric alcohol (like polyvinyl alcohol)/boric acid mix (do it self slime) --> to increase coherence by -OH...HO- linkages...boric acid is boron trihydroxyde (B(OH)3 like Al(OH)3 but written H3BO3 to emphasize the fact it is an acid).

If the Al react into the detonation zone (what is unlikely unless very finely dispersed (nanosized and coated or specialy processed to decrease protective oxyd layer)) or if it reacts just behind or even into a late process maybe it will take a little of the oxygen from Si but remember that the SiO2 will not be into a gaseous state...what strongly reduces the chances of reaction (a kind of thermite...what is usually small speed reaction vs a detonation proces).

Dingu is less of an hydrolytic trouble than Tingu but acidity onto a microscopic molecular level might be a trouble or not...only experimentation can tell (storage tests, accelerated decay/ageing into hot storage rooms, Differential Scanning Curve, Thermogravimetry)

[Edited on 16-11-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]

Tin man - 15-11-2016 at 18:50

Could 2,4,6-trinitrobenzoic acid be made be made by reacting TNT with a warm solution of sodium permanganate and sodium hydroxide. I'm hoping the TNT would be Oxidized and dissolve as sodium 2,4,6-trinitrobenzoate. If so, the remaining Permanganate could be destroyed by dropwise addition of hydrogen peroxide. Then the solution would be filtered to remove manganese dioxide, and the trinitrobenzoic acid could be precipitated using HCl, dissolved in hot water, and reacted with your favorite heavy metal salt.

PHILOU Zrealone - 16-11-2016 at 13:37

Quote: Originally posted by Tin man

Could 2,4,6-trinitrobenzoic acid be made be made by reacting TNT with a warm solution of sodium permanganate and sodium hydroxide. I'm hoping the TNT would be Oxidized and dissolve as sodium 2,4,6-trinitrobenzoate. If so, the remaining Permanganate could be destroyed by dropwise addition of hydrogen peroxide. Then the solution would be filtered to remove manganese dioxide, and the trinitrobenzoic acid could be precipitated using HCl, dissolved in hot water, and reacted with your favorite heavy metal salt.

You will have to try in tiny to get an answer.

Sodium or potassium permanganate are indeed oxydants for organic reactions into acidic media and into basic media aswel.

The usual procedure for TNToluen oxydation into TNBenzoic acid goes via acid/permanganate (avoid at all cost HCl what is uncompatible with MnO4(-)...generates a lot of Cl2 gas (toxic suffocating war gas)).

This is part of the process of conversion of TNT into the more powerful TNBenzene...the last step is the decarboxylation by boiling water of the TNBenzoic acid into TNBenzene...
HO2C-C6H2(NO2)3 --100°C--> C6H3(NO2)3 + CO2(g)
Since it is an extra step, it increases the cost of TNB vs TNT for military use; what explains TNT is favoured.

The decarboxylation occurs like in many cases into organic chemistry because of the Electron-withdrawing effect in alfa position vs the carboxylic group (here the TNPhenyl moiety is EW)...same applies for the following groups -CO-, CCl3-, O2N-CH2-, HO2C-CH2-, ... what lead to easy thermal or even spontaneous decarboxylation...the effect is enhanced by multiplication of the EWG groups into alfa, beta or further depending onto molecular structure and electron transfer ability (molecular orbital).

Since the decarboxylation occurs quite easily under heating...I'm not sure you should heat up the TNBenzoic acid (or the TNBenzoate) or even dissolve it into warm water...part of it will decompose and maybe the process is even easier for the salt in basic media?

Also don't heat up dry the basic media with TNT...a heat sensitive deep yellow sodium salt may form via aci-nitronate...the hydrogens atoms from the methyl group are somewhat acidic (read labile) because of the EW ability of the TNPhenyl;
CH3-C=C-NO2 + NaOH <--==> CH2=C-C=N(O)-ONa + H2O (rest of the aromatic ring left aside for convenience purpose)
And this is evidenced by a lot of special reactions of TNT involving the CH3- and usually occuring in basic media like:
-halogenation (chloromethyl TNB, dichloromethyl TNB and trichloromethyl TNB),
-oxydation (TNBenzaldehyde, TNBenzoic acid),
-addition of aldehydes like formaldehyde (2-TNphenyl ethanol, TNStyrene, 2-TNphenyl-1,3-propandiol)

TNBenzene also is sensitized by strong bases and yellowing but the reaction is more obscure since there is no labile H so mechanism follows another pathway.

[Edited on 16-11-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]

ill behaviour - 18-11-2016 at 16:29

Thank you for answer, I am still at a very basic stage, so i just read away and try and learn.
Anyhow my latest question has to do with amine sensitized nitromethane. I read about people using epoxy as a source of amine. Can anyone fill me in on what the finished product should look like? My NM went a clear yellow tint but when i gave it a good stir it went cloudy, any idea whats going on? Also my epoxy seems to have multiple amines is this a safety issue.
Material Safety Data Sheet
H206 West System Slow Hardener
Version 1.1
Page 1 of 7
Section 1:
Identification of the Material and the Supplier
Trade Name
H206 West System Slow Hardener
Product Code
H206
Recommended Use
Used in conjunction with epoxy resin for adhesive and
composite application.
Company
ATL Composites
Address
12-14 Production Ave Ernest 4214
Telephone
+61 7 5563 1222 (Monday-Friday 8:30am-5:00pm)
Emergency Telephone
Number
+61 7 5563 1222 (Monday-Friday 8:30am-5:00pm)
Revision Date
22
n
d
May 2014
Section 2:
Hazards Identification
Hazard Classification:
HAZARDO
US SUBSTANCE : DANGEROUS GOODS
Risk Phrases
R34 Causes burns
R41
Risk of serious damage to eyes
R21/22
Harmful in contact with the skin and if swallowed
R42/43
May cause sensitization by inhalation and skin contact
R50/53
Very toxic to aquatic organisms, may cause long-term adverse
effects in the aquatic environment
Safety Phrases
S26
In case of contact with eyes, rinse immediately with plenty of water and seek
medical advice.
S28
After contact with skin, wash immediately with plenty of soap-suds.
S36/37/39
Wear suitable protective clothing, gloves and eye/face protection.
Section 3:
Composition / Information on Ingredients
Chemical Name
CAS No.
Weight %
Polyoxypropylenediamine
9046-10-0
30 - 60
Polymer of epichlorohydrin,
bisphenol-A, and DETA
31326-29-1
30 - 60
Tetraethylenepentamine
112-57-2
10 - <30
Reaction Products of TETA
and propylene oxide
26950-63-0 <10
Triethylenetetramine 112-24-3
<10

James Ikanov - 18-11-2016 at 17:19

As far as I'm aware even the "most" sensitive PLX type composition of Nitromethane and and other Amines is around the sensitivity of C4 or RDX (requiring strong initiation via a blasting cap or even booster) but I can't discount the possibility of side reactions with some of the other shit in there like BPA or the other things. I'd be very surprised if it's become significantly sensitive to initiation but it is probably contaminated with something, no clue what though.

Sorry if that's not too helpful.

ill behaviour - 18-11-2016 at 20:42

Both products are cap sensitive but testing was done at night and it was a rush job so no useful information was obtained accept to say I was completely amazed . I put 5 grams of mixed Amines in a jar and added 95 grams of 99% NM. The amine formed a layer on the top. After 24hours the NM went yellow. I did the same thing in another jar but stirred the mix in a attempt to get the amine to completely dissolve in the NM. It got cloudy in a major way. Also the amine/NM will not gel in smokeless powder like regular NM which is annoying so next thing is to try and gel it with Cabosil as my microspheres just float in the liquid and my girlfriend is getting the shits with me trashing all her kitchen implements. I cant believe she has memorized every item and questions me about the whereabouts of her utensils.

Bert - 20-11-2016 at 11:31

Get your own implements. Not hers.

If you use someone else's kitchen implements, much less the kitchen itself for your chemistry, you are asking to die. Not nescessarily from accidental poisoning, fires caused by stove pilot lights, etc., but by the hand of a righteously pissed off person in charge of that kitchen...

"Honey, why is there a big yellow stain on the white counter top that won't clean up?" (Picric acid, dear.)

"Dear, what are all these black specs that show up whenever I try to use the blender?" (Honey, don't worry, it's just black powder.)

SMACK!

Bert - 6-12-2016 at 12:51

Can anyone provide a description of the liquid explosives used in Russian PFM-1 type mines? All I find on searching are repeated references to " VS6-D or VS-60D".

PETN PBX

GarageExperiments - 6-12-2016 at 23:28

Hey, I'm completely new to the forum so hopefully this post isn't a step out of line or something that's already been over-discussed. I recently synthesized a little batch of PETN and I would like to try to plasticize it. I'm thinking of using polybutene from Bird-B-Gone and some motor oil. Will this combination work well or is it beneficial to add a phthalate or something similar as well? The professional PBX's usually contain something like this. What general percentage range of plasticizer is acceptable for PETN? Also, what solvents are best? Acetone is out of the question obviously, I was thinking ether/naptha, are these viable options?

[Edited on 7-12-2016 by GarageExperiments]

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