Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Pseudoscience & Willful Ignorance

bfesser - 22-11-2013 at 09:14

Since there's so much disinformation spread about the internet and so many people are willing to suspend critical thinking faculties in order to believe it, why not have a topic dedicated to these fallacies and possibly disproving them?

For a start, here's a short list of nonsense that some people actually believe:<ul><li><em><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemtrail_conspiracy_theory" target="_blank">'chemtrails'</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" /></em></li><li><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation_controversy#Conspiracy_theories" target="_blank">fluoridation myths</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" /></li><li><em><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyhydrogen#Fringe_science_and_fraud" target="_blank">HHO</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" /></em></li><li><em><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollow_earth" target="_blank">hollow Earth</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" /></em></li><li><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nascent_hydrogen" target="_blank"><em>nascent hydrogen</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" /></em></li><li><em><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penta_Water" target="_blank">penta water</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" /></em><li><em><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_memory" target="_blank">water memory</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" /></em></ul>
Some articles of interest:<ul><li><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong" target="_blank">Not even wrong</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" /> (my signature)</li><li><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathological_science" target="_blank">Pathological science</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" /></li><li><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience" target="_blank">Pseudoscience</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" /></li></ul>

[edit] <strong>Notice:</strong> I will prune any political commentary from this topic. Check your political ideologies at the door. Yes, I know that's a bit odd for a topic in Legal and Societal Issues; but it's an attempt to avoid Detritus.

[Edited on 24.11.13 by bfesser]

elementcollector1 - 22-11-2013 at 10:00

Well, they do make for a good laugh.

mayko - 22-11-2013 at 17:42

Don't forget psuedomath and mathematical cranks

For example, William "Isaac Newton of Information Theory" Dembski:
Quote:

As we will show, Dembski’s work is riddled with inconsistencies, equivocation, flawed use of mathematics, poor scholarship, and misrepresentation of others’ results. As a result, we believe few if any of Dembski’s conclusions can be sustained.
Several writers have already taken issue with some of Dembski’s claims (e.g., [23, 71, 72, 92, 78, 22, 94, 32]). In this paper we focus on some aspects of Dembski’s work that have received little attention thus far.


Ouch.

elementcollector1 - 22-11-2013 at 18:51

Wow. That's quite a paper.

Fenir - 22-11-2013 at 19:38

Homeopathy is quite hilarious especialy when the doctors invoved often lack medical degrees.

franklyn - 23-11-2013 at 19:49

The true meaning of being open minded is not caring about appearances or reputatiion


Quote: Originally posted by franklyn  
So called psuedo science is often just poorly expressed in the accepted academic standard ,
not that there is anything faulty in the logic. Rather snobish and blind to unseen possibilities.


Imagination is more important than knowledge.
— Albert Einstein

Seek and you will find , refuse to open a door and what is behind remains by defintion unknown , which cannot be equated to unknowable.

If not so please explain magic.
Conspiracy theories arise because people refuse ' logically ' to accept the improbable ( that they are wrong ) no matter how factual it is , and ' logically ' ad hoc attempt to explain away the inevitable inconsistencies to avoid contending with them ( denial )

It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is , it doesn't matter how smart you are.
If it doesn't agree with experiment , it's wrong.
— Richard P. Feynman

Just one example _
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2509/is-the-ninja-d...

__________________________________________________________________


On a mathematical note why do peculiar conventions arise ?

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1036/why-are-there-...

See page 150 , 151 etc. here _
http://books.google.com/books?id=FyoDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA150&a...

.

DraconicAcid - 23-11-2013 at 20:06

One must be open-minded, but not so open-minded that one's brains fall out.
Homeopathy is bunk- it has been proven to be bunk (it's no better than placebo), and the supposed theoretical basis for it has been proven to be bunk. And magic doesn't exist, either.

User64 - 23-11-2013 at 20:16

It's human nature to trust the opinions of those we feel are knowledgeable without doing the leg work or experiments ourselves. The world used to be flat, after all.

The instant information of our society today compounds the problem. Most don't do the work or experiments themselves to validate and take information as truth.

adamsium - 24-11-2013 at 05:35

franklyn - none of those quotes support accepting pseudoscience or taking it seriously. To me, they essentially say "try new stuff and see what happens" and "when you try it, accept the outcome". If anything, the Feynman quote would advocate against giving pseudoscience any attention.

This is how science is (obviously) supposed to work. Pseudoscience tends to fail at the experimental stage with either untestable claims or claims that fail tests. There's nothing wrong with slapping the 'pseudoscience' label on that, because it is pseudoscience (if it is still claimed to be science). That which cannot be tested by science is not science and should be given no further scientific consideration. That which fails scientific tests is rejected scientifically. That doesn't automatically mean it is bad unless it is masquerading as science, in which case it should be labelled as pseudoscience and fraudulent.

As for the article - that's not about pseudoscience. Most of it is about explanations for things that may not be immediately obvious. No scientists are claiming to fully understand the human body, so why should it come as a surprise that we don't fully understand the human body?

Interestingly, you have previously said:
Quote: Originally posted by franklyn  
Contemplating confounded opinions , rather than eschewing them upon recognition
of what they are , is knowingly wasting time with idiosyncratic mental chewing gum
that has no intellectual edible or nutritional value. Being fascinated by it is tantamount
to addiction. Resist being seduced into dignifying mediocrity by manifesting superiority ,
which is often the draw in outlandish claims or assertions. A bullshit filter takes effort
to cultivate.
which seems to be in contradiction to the general spirit of what you're saying here.

It seems that you want it both ways. I think I have a pretty decent bullshit filter and it's going mental right now.

bismuthate - 24-11-2013 at 07:11

Kind of on this subject some of my friends believe in big foot also they believe that aliens built the great pyramids and I try to use logic to show them truth but they just refuse to listen and there's no way that I can actually prove them wrong. It's really frustrating!

mayko - 3-12-2013 at 14:21

Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid  

Homeopathy is bunk- it has been proven to be bunk (it's no better than placebo), and the supposed theoretical basis for it has been proven to be bunk.


I'd argue that vaccines are actually an example of homeopathy that works: they use a dilute, attenuated sample of the disease-causing agent (rather than a counteracting agent as in allopathy) to prevent disease.

For some reason though, homeopaths often don't like to be told as much. *trollface*

vulture - 3-12-2013 at 14:25

Quote:

I'd argue that vaccines are actually an example of homeopathy that works: they use a dilute, attenuated sample of the disease-causing agent (rather than a counteracting agent as in allopathy) to prevent disease.


Homeopathy relies on water memory, there is no actual agent inside.

Metacelsus - 3-12-2013 at 14:30

The principle behind vaccines is sound. On the other hand, the very different principle behind homeopathy is not. Vaccines are not "dilute": a dilute sample of a virulent pathogen will still be infectious. Rather, they are, as you said, attenuated.

Homeopathy claims that inordinately dilute doses of "medicine" are effective, and more so than conventional medicine.

For giggles:
http://xkcd.com/765/

gregxy - 3-12-2013 at 16:23

If you look at the clinical test results for almost any drug, the placebo always shows some curing power and negative side effects as well, often almost as much as the drug under test.

I also read an article that stated something like 80% of the things people go to see doctors for would go away without any treatment.

So homeopathy probably appears to work quite well.

mayko - 3-12-2013 at 18:31

I'm not sure I agree that the doctrine of "like treats like" is synonymous with the proposed mechanism of water memory, but I appreciate the points made.

bfesser - 4-12-2013 at 06:10

I've posted <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0" target="_blank">this</a> <img src="../scipics/_yt.png" /> before.

mayko - 4-12-2013 at 17:00

Another complication that I keep in mind when making these sorts of assessments is that a phenomenon can be very real, while the pseudoscience lies in the social, cultural, political, and economic motivations and interpretations that surround the phenomenon.

For example, I would contend that, as a phenomenon, ghosts are real. People report seeing them all the time, with apparent sincerity, and describe a consistent, complex phenomenology (for example, the clustering of ghosts into poltergeists and classical hauntings). There are even photographs and the like of things people say are ghosts.

However, the word 'ghost' refers not just to a phenomenon reported by observers, but to an interpretation of it, often invoking spiritualism. I don't share this interpretation; I think that the fact that people observe ghosts is entirely seated in human psychology and neurology. Nonetheless, it is a fact that I think deserves an answer. How to proceed is what distinguishes science from pseudoscience; let's be careful as we tease apart what exactly defines scientific inquiry.

This brings me to Morgellons, a phenomenon in which sufferers report "a range of cutaneous symptoms such as crawling, biting, and stinging sensations (formication); unusual fibers in the skin; and persistent skin lesions (e.g., rashes or sores)." It is generally written off as delusional parasitosis. I'm not convinced.

For one thing, take a look at the design of some of the studies claiming to demonstrate it.
Quote:

A computerized search of patients seen at Mayo Clinic’s site in Rochester, from 1996 through 2007, was performed using the following search terms: delusion of lice, delusional disorder with parasitosis, delusion(s) of parasitosis, delusional parasitosis, delusion(s) of parasitism, delusion(s) of parasites, parasitosis (delusional), delusional infestation, delusory parasitosis, psychogenic parasitosis, neurogenic parasitosis, neurotic parasitosis, Ekbom syndrome, formication and parasites, chronic tactile hallucination(s), dermatophobia, parasitophobia, toxic psychosis, tactile psychosis, monosymptomatic hypochondriacal psychosis, Morgellon(s), psychogenic dermatitis, neurotic dermatitis, neurogenic dermatitis, self-induced excoriations, and psychogenic excoriations.


In other words, their sample was of a bunch of people who were suffering from psycho-dermal conditions, plus some people with Morgellons. Unsurprisingly, skin biopsies of these patients showed no parasitism. But I can't help but wonder if the sampling swamped out the Morgellons phenomenon with true cases of delusional parasitosis. (The CDC recently released the results of a better study, which also found no infectious or environmental component.)

Moreover, assume that the chief finding is correct, and Morgellons is not caused by parasites. The conclusion of delusional parasitosis is not yet warranted. The belief that one's symptoms are parasitic may be incorrect, but that is not the same as it being delusional, which has specific neurological and psychological connotations. If one is suffering from symptoms which one's doctor is consistently not able to treat or explain, it may even be a rational decision not to believe their claims about the cause of the symptoms.

And all of this presumes that the sufferer holds the belief that they are parasitized. I have talked to people who identify as Morgellons sufferers but believe that their symptoms are environmental. What are we to make of such people?

Finally, even if Morgellons is a subset of delusional parasitosis, the question remains: Why do people have delusional parasitosis? Is the Morgellons presentation a distinct subtype, or is it a cultural mask on a generic illness? These are all questions that I think are valid, despite thinking that the most popularly proposed mechanism for Morgellons is pseudoscientific (OMG CHEMTRAIL NANOBOTS BE EATING ME!!)

When I was a kid, I was fascinated by the Bermuda Triangle. I was dismayed when my brother once dismissed it by claiming it was 'merely' a statistical artifact. After all, he reasoned, mustn't there be a hot spot for sea disappearances somewhere?

This wasn't a satisfactory answer for me, because it didn't address the phenomenology I was reading about; indeed, the number of disappearances was the least interesting part to me: Why did survivors report anomalies like glowing fogs and malfunctioning compasses? Why is the area a UFO hotspot? Why was the ocean reported to glow? I think that if I had been given an answer which addressed the phenomenology (for example, by pointing to the psychological effects of long-distance travel, luminescent algae, electrical phenomena, or the fact that people sometimes make shit up ) I would have been more satisfied - though I probably would have wanted to know more about each of these new phenomena.

I guess the point I'm getting at is that pseudoscience can lie in the interpretations and behaviors that surround a kernel of truth, and we should be careful in isolating exactly what it is in a particular case of pseudoscience that offends us, and what core observations it flows from and whether they offer insight into real phenomena.







[Edited on 5-12-2013 by mayko]

bfesser - 5-12-2013 at 06:08

Quote: Originally posted by mayko  
For example, I would contend that, as a phenomenon, ghosts are real. People report seeing them all the time, with apparent sincerity, and describe a consistent, complex phenomenology (for example, the clustering of ghosts into poltergeists and classical hauntings). There are even photographs and the like of things people say are ghosts.

However, the word 'ghost' refers not just to a phenomenon reported by observers, but to an interpretation of it, often invoking spiritualism. I don't share this interpretation; I think that the fact that people observe ghosts is entirely seated in human psychology and neurology. Nonetheless, it is a fact that I think deserves an answer. How to proceed is what distinguishes science from pseudoscience; let's be careful as we tease apart what exactly defines scientific inquiry.
Ghosts!? For serious? Can you even begin to provide a plausible explanation for how ghosts can exist? Never underestimate the ability of the subconscious to interject what simply isn't there.

[Edited on 5.12.13 by bfesser]

watson.fawkes - 5-12-2013 at 06:24

Quote: Originally posted by bfesser  
Can you even begin to provide a plausible explanation for how ghosts can exist?
They can exist as subjective mental phenomena, which is almost-but-not-quite what mayko already said.

That said, there are people who don't believe in the existence of subjective mental phenomena. They would think I'm wrong. I think they're idiots.
<hr/>bfesser moderator expellendus est

hyfalcon - 5-12-2013 at 06:32

Check out the show Ghost Mine. If nothing else, the redhead investigator is pleasing to the eyes. I don't know what it is, but there is some kind of effect in all the sitings surrounding that gold mine and town.

mayko - 5-12-2013 at 07:07

Quote: Originally posted by bfesser  
Ghosts!? For serious? Can you even begin to provide a plausible explanation for how ghosts can exist? Never underestimate the ability of the subconscious to interject what simply isn't there.


You answered your own question ;) Things like paredolia and wishful thinking are a plausible explanation for the existence of the ghost phenomenon. More interesting to me is the role that abnormal neurological states, such as hypnogogia, aura, or neuroelectromagenetism in developing the phenomenology.

hyfalcon - 5-12-2013 at 08:34

What about actual physical manifestations where welts are recorded after someone reports being pinched when nothing is there?

Metacelsus - 5-12-2013 at 11:14

References please. (It helps if they are reputable sources.)

MrHomeScientist - 5-12-2013 at 11:41

Quote: Originally posted by hyfalcon  
What about actual physical manifestations where welts are recorded after someone reports being pinched when nothing is there?


Admittedly having done little research, psychosomatic phenomena come to mind. The brain can effect actual physical symptoms where there is no real physical cause. See "conversion disorder" as a good example, on the somatoform disorder wiki page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatoform_disorder

Broadly similar to the placebo effect, in my eyes. If the mind believes something strongly enough, it can be enough to manifest physical effects. Interesting stuff.

Random - 5-12-2013 at 12:01

Nutrition and health recommenedations. You see ads with fruit saying full of vitamin and they list everything including protein. Saying an apple is a good source of vitamin is foolish and dangerous practice. When actual nutritional data is checked the reality is much worse. Absolutely miniscule amounts of some minerals let alone fat soluble vitamins.



Eating a fruit "full of vitamin and minerals" to meet your RDA of everything is absolutely foolish and dangerous practice that many parents employ. Maybe 10kg of that fruit would for example meet your calcium RDA.



Not saying that eating fruit is bad just telling an example.




Another thing is fat loss and pills that reduce fat. There is no way this is possible.

Fat contains 3500 calories per pound and the only way to reduce is to spend it in exercise. That is if you don't also metabolize muscle in that process which has a lot less cals.


Another thing is BMI and overweight people. What matters is your bodyfat percentage in terms of ratio between fat and lean body mass not your overall weight for health.


I hate when people talk bullshit and the thing is nutrition is one of the main causes for bad or good health in the long term.




There are also things like cancer healing essential oils. When my mother tells me about some new magical essential oil that cures cancer I always ask her: so how do you know? What is the active ingradient that does it?


Then I go to wiki and see that active ingradient might actually cause some problems in higher doses with no anticancer properties.. :mad:

Random - 5-12-2013 at 12:08

I like how mayko thinks out of the box. Something we would need more of.

Nicodem - 5-12-2013 at 13:47

Quote: Originally posted by watson.fawkes  
That said, there are people who don't believe in the existence of subjective mental phenomena. They would think I'm wrong. I think they're idiots.

Not really idiots, as idiots are probably not clever enough to invent such a stupidity. But it could be said that people who believe in such irrational ideas like the non-existance of subjective mental phenomena are simply over-subjective in their ideas.

watson.fawkes - 5-12-2013 at 18:26

Quote: Originally posted by Nicodem  
Not really idiots, as idiots are probably not clever enough to invent such a stupidity.
There are lots of idiots who are idiots only because of their idiocy about particular topics, and who are otherwise intelligent even as they turn their intellect toward idiocy on those topics. Some of them even frequent this board.

For more on this particular idiocy, however, see Wikipedia on philosophical zombies. Argued as a hypothetical by some, but believed by others.
<hr/>bfesser moderator expellendus est

bfesser - 5-12-2013 at 18:38

So we've gone from discussion on pseudoscience to philosophy. Interesting how small a leap that was. You can guess my feelings toward philosophers...

IrC - 6-12-2013 at 01:49

Quote: Originally posted by bfesser  
Ghosts!? For serious? Can you even begin to provide a plausible explanation for how ghosts can exist? Never underestimate the ability of the subconscious to interject what simply isn't there.


bfesser it is not scientific to state something cannot possibly exist based upon the fact you cannot nor have not seen it. This is no different than saying in 1900 black holes cannot exist because no one has seen one. Instrumentation and theories advance, new measurements are made which give strong evidence they are real even though you still cannot see one. Does this mean around 100 years ago they did not exist at that time? I believe there must be at least 11 dimensions in creation. We have nothing which can gather data from these other dimensions, thus we cannot say they are unreal merely because we cannot detect it. Same goes for whatever may exist in them. It is unlikely you can prove the grass is not greener on the other side when you have never made the trip over the hill. How can one state the 'lifeforce' if you will, does not occupy more dimensions than the ones our instruments can measure or detect energy in?

Looking at it with at least an open mind using a scientific approach considering if real but 'other dimensional' we cannot prove or disprove the idea based upon what devices we have available. So while you may say someone is delusional for belief in ghosts they are at least as correct as you if they say your wrong for stating their existence is impossible. A no win scenario at present, but I do believe you have no more credibility to state the negative than they do the positive. Insofar as physical proof goes. If science is based upon observation one can at least take a statistical approach to thousands of years of eyewitness accounts. If say only one in a hundred reports are real, this is still evidence obtained by observation giving at least some small credibility to the validity of their reports. Looking at it this way one can say from the observations there is more evidence ghosts do exist than you can provide to back up your claim they do not.

I have to say any other view is hypocritical, you cannot state with perfect certainty black holes exist but ghosts do not. By definition you cannot measure a black hole since all information with any device yet invented would be unable to escape. You can use 'other measurements' such as gravitational or Hawking radiation effects but this only proves something is there. Not positive proof of a black hole since again, one cannot by definition be seen. Black hole merely fits the theory. On the other hand hundreds of thousands of observations over thousands of years say ghosts can be seen. Certainly one cannot prove ghosts exist but in fairness one cannot prove they cannot, thus the hypocrisy to declare they do not exist with reasonable certainty.

Occam's razor in this case works for the believers and against your view. From the number of observations the simplest most logical and reasonable view is they have a better chance of being real than you have of proving they are not. In my opinion any other view is you guessed it 'hypocrisy'. There is a large body of observations and experiences of abilities the mind has which one can only say seems to involve 'other dimensions'. Not a good idea to discount it merely for your dislike of their terminology for these dimensions, such as 'spiritual' or 'paranormal'. Look at Bells inequality and quantum connectedness. Should we say particles can communicate at faster than light speeds through 'other dimensions', or 'paranormal dimensions'? Is this not merely different words used by people to describe what may be the same thing? Does the lack of scientific terminology make them less right and you more?

I don't know if ghosts exist with certainty, I do know you cannot prove they do not with certainty. The jury is out if you will, put it on a shelf and wait for better evidence keeping an open mind until something comes along which can prove with certainty one way or the other. I do know for sure a C15 remedy has nothing at all in it but water, diluted to infinity for all intents and purposes (maybe one molecule of cure in a quadrillion H2O's) so this one I can say you can disprove positively. At least you have a better chance disproving homeopathy than you do ghosts for what it's worth?


vulture - 6-12-2013 at 07:09

Quote:

You can use 'other measurements' such as gravitational or Hawking radiation effects but this only proves something is there. Not positive proof of a black hole since again, one cannot by definition be seen.


What about atoms?

IrC - 6-12-2013 at 10:18

Quote: Originally posted by vulture  
Quote:

You can use 'other measurements' such as gravitational or Hawking radiation effects but this only proves something is there. Not positive proof of a black hole since again, one cannot by definition be seen.


What about atoms?


If they are in a black hole they are toast. If not look at them using Atomic Force Microscopy. Atoms have been photographed already. A link to that article (Nature, IIRC) was posted here on SCM a while back, is where I first learned about it. Cool story wherever it is around here.

http://virtual.itg.uiuc.edu/training/AFM_tutorial/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_force_microscopy

"The AFM can be used to image and manipulate atoms and structures on a variety of surfaces."

If you say "but they are only looking at forces around it", my reply would be how do you see what you have seen, since what is seen is your proof of what is real? Forces. Light hits the retina, creates electrical signals (forces) that travel to and create a virtual image inside the brain. Using this information to decide what is real is intrinsically flawed anyway. How can one prove all reality is not some giant quantum hologram?

In effect everything we 'see' is unreal, merely a recreation in a virtual realm inside the brain. Surely that image inside the brain is unreal, an electronic virtual recreation of the actual entity which was 'seen'.


ncAFM-microscope8.jpg - 60kB

bfesser - 6-12-2013 at 10:22

<iframe sandbox width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/Rk1ELdPIN4A?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

gregxy - 6-12-2013 at 11:57

A theory lives or dies by the experiment.

An even stronger test is what the theory can predict.

Since the cost of failure is so high, thousands of man hours are spent constructing mathematical models to predict how things like integrated circuits and satellites will perform before they are built. For example, relativistic effects were predicted to be critical in synchronizing the clocks in GPS satellites, and the prediction was found to be correct.

http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps....

Metacelsus - 6-12-2013 at 12:04

On that note:
http://xkcd.com/808/

IrC - 6-12-2013 at 13:32

Quote: Originally posted by Cheddite Cheese  
On that note:
http://xkcd.com/808/


I like that crystal energy/regular energy entry. I had a girlfriend once who was into crystals. Great looking but whacky. She left me one day when she found out I had stayed at a Holiday Inn.

bfesser - 6-12-2013 at 15:47

IrC, please elaborate on that last point.

DraconicAcid - 6-12-2013 at 15:51

I think, bfesser, that IrC is riffing off of a series of ads in which a person says, "I'm not actually a doctor/surgeon/rocket scientist, but I stayed in a Holiday Inn last night". IrC explained to the girlfriend that crystals are pretty, but not magical, so she got upset and left.

IrC - 6-12-2013 at 16:02

The man is spying on me. Absolutely correct. Scarey.

bfesser - 6-12-2013 at 16:14

Ahh, I see.. I don't watch TV, listen to commercial radio, or [clearly] get out much in general... Thanks for the elucidation.

DraconicAcid - 6-12-2013 at 16:22

Quote: Originally posted by IrC  
The man is spying on me. Absolutely correct. Scarey.

If I was spying on anyone, it would have been her.

turd - 7-12-2013 at 04:57

Quote: Originally posted by IrC  
look at them using Atomic Force Microscopy. Atoms have been photographed already.

1914 called - they've seen the three dimensional electron density of NaCl, not only the surface (AFM) or a projection (HRTEM). They also report a tragic loss: that year the molecular model of the solid state died. :(

smaerd - 20-12-2013 at 07:04

Bfesser those look around you videos make me bust up laughing, thanks for that.

Here's a new swindle I've seen sweeping the internet, "Ormus Water". It's not on wikipedia yet, probably because it's just so incredibly absurd. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/ORMUS . I have noticed a terrifying trend of people readily renouncing the reproducible and accepting the fantastic for a small fee. Sure have an imagination, that's highly encouraged for a scientist or a human being. Just don't be a pretentious douche over-paying for placebo water. More importantly don't be the pretentious douche selling over-priced placebo water to tax the ignorant.

DraconicAcid - 20-12-2013 at 09:21

While Xmas shopping last year, I came across a fellow selling "orgonite" (cheap plastic with metal shavings and gravel mixed in with it). He claimed that this "man-made mineral", with its "natural crystals" would do all kinds of funky things with the spiritual energy of the surroundings, and to prove it, he had large blocks of ice that he had frozen with an orgonite "crystal (i.e., lump) resting on it. It showed trails of white where bubbles of air had precipitated out, and he claimed this was proof of the energy vortex created by his magical orgonite.

I told him he was full of shit, and he couldn't believe how closed minded I was.

Bot0nist - 4-1-2014 at 10:23

Love this thread bfesser. Nothing pisses me off more than uninformed vultures preying on the ingnorant and misinformed in the nme of "science."

The following link has some great alerts to current pseudoscience threats, and is updated frequently. I love reading it, though it always gets my ire up.


http://www.richarddawkins.net/news_articles?category=Pseudos...


Oh, and please no " he like Dawkins, he's and athiest snake in the grass" nonsense please. Just stick to the pseudoscience category if the anti-theological stuff rubs you the wrong way.

smaerd - 5-1-2014 at 11:18

Found another good one that VICE did a brief documentary on (http://www.vice.com/read/a-wanderful-experience-454-v17n6),
http://www.eamega.com/es/usa-products/usa-personal-wellness/...
Quote:
The Amega AMWand Classic is made up of a special combination of granulated crystals, that are energized using our own proprietary AMized Fusion Technology, encapsulated within a stainless steel, pen-sized casing. The crystals in the AMWand naturally harmonize and energize our gross and subtle bodies. They have powerful healing qualities and are energy amplifiers that can receive, activate, store, transmit and regulate energy.


Thanks for the link Bot0nist.

bfesser - 5-1-2014 at 11:29

Quote:
Usage of AMWand:
  • Energize any area of the body
  • Energize body fluids
  • Enhance sleep
  • Energize personal care products
    • Does it literally vibrate with energy?

    <hr width="80%" />
    <iframe sandbox width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/ljKX9Om7Z4s?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    <a href="http://youtu.be/5kqeiEDjALE" target="_blank">The Light Bulb Conspiracy Agenda 21 Soft Kill Weaponry (Eugenics)</a>

    [Edited on 5.1.14 by bfesser]

    Radioactive "Negative Ion" Silicone Bracelets?

    Wizzard - 15-1-2014 at 10:48

    http://amal.net/?p=4773

    Anybody else see this? I wonder what they have in them!

    I'm pretty sure they are all over Ebay:
    http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=negative+ion+bracelet&a...

    Metacelsus - 15-1-2014 at 10:59

    This would be a good thread to merge with the psuedoscience one.

    DraconicAcid - 15-1-2014 at 11:33

    They almost certainly have nothing in them but good wishes and snake oil.

    hyfalcon - 15-1-2014 at 11:44

    I think the spirit of the OP was in the nature of a public warning. Might be a good source for material to set up a cloud chamber.

    bfesser - 15-1-2014 at 12:40

    I'm sure as hell not wasting money on one of these, but I'd be more than happy to test one for special (non-existent) radioactive and electrical properties.

    <a href="http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/pseudoscience-sells/" target="_blank">Pseudoscience Sells</a>
    <a href="http://www.nbcsports.com/other-sports/power-balance-admits-no-science-behind-wristbands" target="_blank">
    Quote:
    We admit that there is no credible scientific evidence that supports our claims. <img src="../scipics/_ext.png" />
    </a>

    Wizzard - 15-1-2014 at 15:08

    Ah, my post was to open dialog and speculation on what radioactive elements they may contain, I could care less for their medical value (beyond its harmful effect)!

    Etaoin Shrdlu - 15-1-2014 at 15:08

    If anyone can confirm there's a radioactive brand I'm getting one just for my future nostalgia's sake.

    The "negative ion" thing had me cracking up. It's not as if they're uncommon. I hope those things don't catch on around here as I know a couple people who would buy into it and then I'd be morally obligated to throw table salt at them.

    ...are "positive ions" supposed to be bad, here?

    DraconicAcid - 15-1-2014 at 15:11

    Quote: Originally posted by Wizzard  
    Ah, my post was to open dialog and speculation on what radioactive elements they may contain, I could care less for their medical value (beyond its harmful effect)!


    I doubt they contain anything radioactive. Sections of the AltMed crowd use "negative ions" in the same way as "toxins" or "vibrations"- a sciency sounding word that will convince people to buy their stuff, but they have no intention of actually making their product correspond to the literal meaning of their descriptions.

    Wizzard - 15-1-2014 at 16:00

    The video I linked was a man with a dosimeter measuring 3.8usv/hr.

    Etaoin Shrdlu - 15-1-2014 at 16:12

    It's probably mostly alpha radiation and probably effectively harmless, but the allegations of radioactivity are pretty widespread with not much if any attempt to refute them. A lot of the "negative ion bracelet" companies out there even reference it, usually to attack their competitors. But I can't find any brands being definitively pinned down, just a couple saying "we don't use that awful cheap Chinese monazite stuff, look at us!"

    They mostly carefully skirt around the issue of whether they're using radioactive materials themselves.

    DraconicAcid - 15-1-2014 at 16:26

    Quote: Originally posted by Wizzard  
    The video I linked was a man with a dosimeter measuring 3.8usv/hr.


    That link didn't work for me.

    bfesser - 15-1-2014 at 16:31

    It didn't work for me earlier, either. It appears to be working now, though.

    bismuthate - 21-1-2014 at 16:00

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKj3BoFxNtg
    Has anyone else heard about this cause' I just stuumbled upon it and am facepalming currently
    Also there is somthing called MMS which is NaClO2 apparently and people a drinking it!
    Human stupidity continues to astound me.

    IrC - 22-1-2014 at 03:41

    Quote: Originally posted by bismuthate  
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKj3BoFxNtg
    Has anyone else heard about this cause' I just stuumbled upon it and am facepalming currently
    Also there is somthing called MMS which is NaClO2 apparently and people a drinking it!
    Human stupidity continues to astound me.


    Madness.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_Mineral_Supplement

    They charge big bucks for bottles of bleach. If I were evil and had no fear of judgement I could have been bottling Love Canal runoff. Would likely have been safer to consume than this stuff they are pushing now. CDS-MMS, they bubble Chlorine Dioxide through a 28 percent (their words) solution of Sodium Chlorite calling it 'activated MMS' or CDS-MMS. Then they sell 8 ounce bottles for roughly $12 each which you are supposed to drink. Myself, I don't drink toxic waste if avoidable, and prefer my bottles of bleach to be labeled Clorox.



    [Edited on 1-23-2014 by IrC]

    Kerri Rivera is Evil!

    bfesser - 23-1-2014 at 08:42

    <a href="http://mmsautism.org/" target="_blank">This filth</a> <img src="../scipics/_ext.png" /> makes me both profoundly sad&mdash;as someone diagnosed with an Autism Spectrum Disorder&mdash;and furious&mdash;as a scientifically literate, critically thinking skeptic. This <del>woman</del> cunt advocates systematically poisoning children for her own personal financial gain (book sales). She preys on the uneducated and ignorant, and endangers the lives of innocent children.

    45149389.jpg - 53kB 45149260.jpg - 53kB 45149569.jpg - 55kB

    Anyone up for some slander, character assassination, etc? <a href="http://memegenerator.net/Bishop-Kerri-Rivera" target="_blank">Try this.</a> <img src="../scipics/_ext.png" />

    [Edited on 23.1.14 by bfesser]

    Brain&Force - 23-1-2014 at 15:56

    (From Wikipedia) "At gas phase concentrations greater than 30% volume in air at STP (more correctly: at partial pressures above 10 kPa), ClO2 may explosively decompose into chlorine and oxygen." Boy, that puts a big, flaming, hole in her "science."

    This is worse than the antivax controversy. The ironic thing? Chlorine dioxide destroys the nervous system.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_c6HsiixFS8 This is absolutely ridiculous. People think sprinkler rainbows are caused by water fluoridation. This lady made me feel so smart, as evidenced by the description - and gave me a VERY bad case of headdesk.

    [Edited on 24-1-2014 by Brain&Force]

    bismuthate - 23-1-2014 at 16:16

    Somebody who's finding people who they deem "unfit for society" and poisoning them Hmmm... acomparison to hitler would be too easy.;)
    I say that there is no need of "curing" especialy not with bleach.
    Also would it be legal if I gassed her house with ClO2 and claimed I was curing her when she ends up dead:D?

    bfesser - 23-1-2014 at 16:23

    Please don't joke about homicide.

    What I find most disillusioning about the whole matter is that she's being celebrated for what is essentially child abuse. Surely Mexico has laws protecting children.

    [edit] And this boils my blood (emphasis added):<a href="http://mmsautism.org/consultation-with-kerri-rivera" target="_blank">
    Quote:
    Instructions for scheduling a Skype session with Kerri Rivera, D.Hom.

    1. Email Kerri at KerriRivera@yahoo.com and tell her you would like to schedule a Skype appointment.

    2. Go to paypal.com and log in. If you do not have an account, follow the instructions to create one. Click on the SEND MONEY tab In the To field, put Kerri’s business paypal Address which is: pieapie@prodigy.net.mx In the Amount, put <em>100 and select USD</em> from the drop down Select “I’m paying for goods or services” <img src="../scipics/_ext.png"
    </a>I had to look it up; "D.Hom." is "Doctor of Homeopathy"&mdash;it's not a real doctorate. Oh, and she's a bishop in the <a href="http://genesis2church.org/" target="_blank">'Genesis II Church of Health & Healing'</a> <img src="../scipics/_ext.png" />&mdash;a tax-evasion front based in the Dominican Republic.

    [Edited on 24.1.14 by bfesser]

    bfesser - 1-2-2014 at 19:41

    I came across this nonsense while searching for information on the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madison_Group" target="_blank">Madison formation</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" /> and <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laramide_orogeny" target="_blank">Laramide orogeny</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" />:
    <a href="http://www.perigeezero.org/" target="_blank">Perigee: Zero &mdash; Unified Theory of Cultural Heritage and Geological History</a> <img src="../scipics/_ext.png" />

    roXefeller - 3-2-2014 at 08:11

    Quote: Originally posted by Etaoin Shrdlu  
    It's probably mostly alpha radiation and probably effectively harmless, but the allegations of radioactivity are pretty widespread with not much if any attempt to refute them.


    Wouldn't the alpha particles attenuate before exiting the silicone material? Then it would make them a 'miracle personal helium generator capable of curing _____ and fixing your marriage'.

    On the flip side, during a radioactive material training course we were shown a negative correlation with cancer rates for very long term, low dose radiation. I've only seen it twice and I can't cite anything. Anyone know what I'm talking about that can cite something for me?

    And a parting shot, science and experimentalism can only prove/disprove what is within their realm. Things that exist outside of that realm can only be conjectured, but not proved/disproved by science as it stands. The state of science has to progress before conjecture can be removed. In a nutshell, you must know and understand the limits of your experimental design and knowledge before you dismiss or accept an idea/hypothesis.

    Etaoin Shrdlu - 3-2-2014 at 11:16

    Quote: Originally posted by roXefeller  
    On the flip side, during a radioactive material training course we were shown a negative correlation with cancer rates for very long term, low dose radiation. I've only seen it twice and I can't cite anything. Anyone know what I'm talking about that can cite something for me?

    Look up radiation hormesis if you're curious. I find the idea fascinating but haven't done any real study into it.

    bfesser - 3-2-2014 at 11:33

    Quote: Originally posted by roXefeller  
    On the flip side, during a radioactive material training course we were shown a negative correlation with cancer rates for very long term, low dose radiation. I've only seen it twice and I can't cite anything. Anyone know what I'm talking about that can cite something for me?
    I have heard of several studies that seemed to show this effect. I'll see if I can find them.

    Bot0nist - 3-2-2014 at 14:45

    Are you all speaking of hormesis?

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormesis
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_hormesis



    Etaoin Shrdlu beat me to it, I see. Sorry.


    [Edited on 3-2-2014 by Bot0nist]

    BobD1001 - 3-2-2014 at 19:18

    Quote: Originally posted by bfesser  
    <a href="http://mmsautism.org/" target="_blank">This filth</a> <img src="../scipics/_ext.png" /> makes me both profoundly sad&mdash;as someone diagnosed with an Autism Spectrum Disorder&mdash;and furious&mdash;as a scientifically literate, critically thinking skeptic. This <del>woman</del> cunt advocates systematically poisoning children for her own personal financial gain (book sales). She preys on the uneducated and ignorant, and endangers the lives of innocent children.


    What a sickening and disgusting individual. Terrifying that people can get away with horrible forms of pseudoscience like this, and preying/indirectly torturing innocent autistic children. Truly horrifying.

    I have a co-worker who was recently diagnosed with cancer, and some schmuck sold him a miracle fruit "Guanabana" that the seller claimed was 10,000 times more potent than chemo. What a load of rubbish. The scary part is that some people would reject true cancer therapy, such as chemo and radiation, and instead choose this magic fruit, or some other BS miracle cure. Don't even get me started on Homeopathy or the anti-vaccine crowd. It saddens me to see how many people are deciding to go to this unproven, potentially dangerous hogwash, while rejecting known and proven modern medicine.

    smaerd - 4-2-2014 at 04:49

    Yea BobD, that antivaccination and antimedicine stuff really really bothers me. I could go on for days about it but I'll try not to think about it.


    Here's another funny one I recently heard about.

    http://urbanlegends.about.com/b/2014/01/31/burning-snow-vide...

    People think that all the snow in the USA this winter is a conspiracy. ideas ranging from nanobots to polymers being dumped everywhere. Mostly because people don't understand a few topics, incomplete combustion, phase changes, or how to conduct a simple experiment. If you meet anyone who thinks the snow is made up of nanobots because the soot from their lighters turns it black tell them to hold their lighter side-ways (so that the incomplete combustion byproducts don't get trapped on the surface of the snow), or ask them to hold their lighter underneath a glass dish for the same duration of time and ask if there are nanobots in the glass, or let it melt at room temperature.

    [Edited on 4-2-2014 by smaerd]

    IrC - 4-2-2014 at 05:18

    smaerd has me all bummed out now. I was positive if I built a snowman and shouted 'nanobots electrify' something cool would happen. Now all it's going to do is melt when spring arrives.

    bfesser - 4-2-2014 at 06:03

    <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violet_ray" target="_blank">Violet ray</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" /><a href="http://www.quantumbalancing.com/violet_ray" target="_blank">
    Quote:
    Violet Ray Technology energizes the body by way of a very short exposure using Noble gas tubes to transfer antioxidant electrons into the body tissues which studies show directly neutralize free radicals. <img src="../scipics/_ext.png" />
    </a>[edit] I clicked on this video, thinking that it would be a scientific discussion of <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orogeny" target="_blank">orogenesis</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" />, not the goddamn biblical genesis:

    <a href="http://youtu.be/kT6RxtWDeh0" target="_blank">Orogeny - The Formation Of Mountains</a> <img src="../scipics/_yt.png" />

    You can imagine my disappointment and anger.

    [edit] I don't even...

    <a href="http://www.rdos.net/eng/asperger.htm" target="_blank">The Neanderthal theory</a> <img src="../scipics/_ext.png" />

    [edit] <a href="http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/8225/do-cacti-absorb-harmful-radiation-emitted-by-computers" target="_blank">Do cacti absorb harmful radiation emitted by computers?</a> <img src="../scipics/_ext.png" /> (StackExchange Skeptics)

    [Edited on 7.2.14 by bfesser]

    Etaoin Shrdlu - 8-2-2014 at 10:18

    The structure of water is altered by emotions.

    I'd never have heard of this ridiculousness except I just ran into someone worried they were damaging their fish by being near the tank while upset.

    DraconicAcid - 8-2-2014 at 12:46

    Quote: Originally posted by Etaoin Shrdlu  
    The structure of water is altered by emotions.

    I'd never have heard of this ridiculousness except I just ran into someone worried they were damaging their fish by being near the tank while upset.


    Sadly, my college has a copy of Emoto's book on the subject filed under "chemistry".

    Mailinmypocket - 21-5-2014 at 16:13

    Came across this, kind of hard to believe

    http://www.macleans.ca/politics/america-dumbs-down/

    Etaoin Shrdlu - 21-5-2014 at 16:55

    I agree with the overall sentiment, but that article is pure spin.

    "Just 12 per cent expressed strong confidence in the press to accurately report scientific findings."

    How...how surprising, what with their reputation for checking facts instead of mindlessly repeating their competitors (and the Onion).

    bismuthate - 22-5-2014 at 03:28

    I just saw this as an add on youtube.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hejJknpb0YQ

    Brain&Force - 22-5-2014 at 14:12

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efAUCG9oTb8

    Zyklon-A - 22-5-2014 at 16:54

    Quote: Originally posted by bismuthate  
    I just saw this as an add on youtube.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hejJknpb0YQ

    Hahaha! hat's the most retarded thing I've seen in a while (quite an accomplishment considering how many stupid thing I see on a regular basis). Look a one of the comments:
    Quote:

    Through necromancy and the power of imagination, we bring you Sapphire Waves. This app causes a micro placebo effect cascade causing all those within a one meter radius to become made of protoplasm and have increased levels of asininess, plus it turns normal water into hydrogen dioxide! Check out our other cool apps which allow you to download more RAM and make pure low cal fat free diet hydrogen dioxide pour from your speakers!

    We here at Sapphire Dave's reject reality and substitute our own!

    Hydrogen peroxide I assume they meant. Answer me this then you mouthbreathers, were the fuck does the extra oxygen atom come from?

    DraconicAcid - 22-5-2014 at 17:41

    I'm sure they meant dihydrogen monoxide.

    Etaoin Shrdlu - 22-5-2014 at 18:08

    That comment was clearly satire.

    Zyklon-A - 22-5-2014 at 19:03

    Etaoin Shrdlu, now that you mention it, I think you're right - I hope you're right.

    elementcollector1 - 28-5-2014 at 10:14

    Quote: Originally posted by Zyklonb  
    Etaoin Shrdlu, now that you mention it, I think you're right - I hope you're right.

    Nah, it's gotta be - you can hear the snark dripping off that paragraph.

    Zyklon-A - 28-5-2014 at 10:23

    Well, in that case, good for him!

    hissingnoise - 28-5-2014 at 11:27

    The Bemer?

    Further superfluous proof that; "There's one born every shagging minute!"

    Etaoin Shrdlu - 28-5-2014 at 14:48

    ...what the hell is it even supposed to be? None of their supposedly explanatory links say anything about the machine itself. Most scams at least propose some method of function; this one just skips past the "how" and claims efficacy straight-up. It's almost admirable in its effrontery - and they claim to have been in business for over a decade.

    Any fans out there? Because I too believe in research and the power of science to banish initial reasonable doubts, and I have been recently developing a companion machine which through aligning rhythms and sub-quantum vibrations has been proven in several double-blind studies to alleviate such myriad ailments as gullibility, boredom, and pocket change: introductory cost only $299.99 USD.

    Brain&Force - 23-6-2014 at 20:24

    http://www.naturalnews.com/045695_global_warming_fabricated_...

    Hilariously, hilariously wrong. What a fraud it is to add data to a chart, apparently.

    Texium - 24-6-2014 at 08:50

    Yeah, I don't understand what they're claiming there. 97% of scientists agree that human caused climate change is real… who cares about some graph?
    Edit: Just look at the comments under that article and you can clearly see the sort of audience that that website caters to, particularly if you sort it by "best"...

    [Edited on 6-24-2014 by zts16]