Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Diethyl ether vapor explosion/FAE

nehorlavazapalka - 22-12-2013 at 16:09

I have been researching the internet for data on diethyl ether vapor and its explosive properties. I have come across some demonstrations that seem to prove that diethyl ether vapor can easily achieve the deflagration-to-detonation transition in small volumes. I have been reading some academic papers and they seem to be very confusing, some say that normal air.diethy ether mixtures are highly resistant do DDT and that i.e. methanol/air mixtures (we're talking stochiometric mixtures) are much better at DDT. Some paint different picture.

By the way, our labs had refrigerator detonation and even my common sense tells me, that diethyl ether should be good at DDT.


In fact, I want to test it: let's say I will use 2×2×0.5 m high foil housing with about 280 ml of ether (stochiometric, 0.5 m because the vapor is dense and I want to rely on diffusion mixing, rather than turbulence in higher housings). Do you have any experience with this kind of FAE? What do you know about diethyl ether explosions?

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 22-12-2013 at 17:25

diethyl ether vapor ignition will not really go up to a scale that you can call it detonation, i think its more of a deflagration since its just vapor burning...

I am pretty sure it is very similar to acetone vapour - air ignition. I have tried that, it just burns really fast. if you add few drops of acetone into a warm empty drinking water bottle, and lit it, it will just kind of shoot out like a rocket, it wont explode, i use to do that when I was much younger.

Bot0nist - 22-12-2013 at 18:40

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diethyl_ether

No, ether has a fairly wide explosive limit range with air. 1.9 to 48%. A mix can detonate IIRC.

APO - 22-12-2013 at 21:54

Mr.Anonymous successfully made a small FAE that dispersed a mix of 54% Heptane, 23% Isopropyl Nitrite, and 23% Diethyl Ether. The dispersed fuel cloud DID detonate, it can be found here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dW1qkBg8sM

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 23-12-2013 at 04:06

APO I dont think diethyl ether it self can do that, it wouldnt be used so commonly as a solvent if it detonate that easily up to that scale. Isopropyl nitrite is the explosive.

TheChemiKid - 23-12-2013 at 05:25

Yes, I agree with DubaiAmateurRocketry. I think the Isopropyl nitrite is the explosive, and an ether mix would only deflagrate.

APO - 23-12-2013 at 16:56

I do not think that Isopropyl Nitrite is solely the main explosive, I recall hearing that Heptane vapor is capable of detonating, as well as Diethyl Ether. Isopropyl Nitrite is more volatile than both Heptane and Diethyl Ether, so I think that maybe their differences in volatility cause an uneven fuel cloud density once expanded. That would cause the rate of expansion to go up, so that as they fight to reach an equilibrium of vapor pressure which causes the vapor to persist outward, the linear action of the fast moving cloud creates a minor vacuum around itself so that it pulls in air, ultimately reaching a fuel air mix capable of detonation quicker than usual.

Bot0nist - 23-12-2013 at 20:13

After further reading, I was perhaps wrong about the meaning of exosive limits in air given in the reference, as it seems to relate more to deflagration as others have pointed out. I apologize. Still, I would hardly call the post fear mongering or chemophobia. What was that semi political, nearly nonsensical rant all about? Ether is a very useful solvent in chemistry, and as long as precautions for its flammablility, volatility, peroxide formation, and CNS effects are accounted for, it can be applied without trouble.

nehorlavazapalka - 24-12-2013 at 05:20

This video http://youtu.be/Q-3U-TRkJx8?t=9s seems to be on verge of detonation, but is the ether starting fliud rly diethyether?

This video show clear detonation in a small, but very confined volume:


http://www.chymiatrie.de/index.php/videouebersicht/89-video-...

and this is a killer explosion, but again.... not under standard pressure and volume:

http://www.chemaxx.com/tirexplode2.htm



Again, I will have to wait till the start of march. Today, we have about 10°C..but that's global warming fluke..so I can't rly rely on it. Perhaps I will use more, about 1 l in a 5×3×0.5 m foil housing. Then we will see.

nehorlavazapalka - 14-1-2014 at 03:52

I did a 10l test of stochiometric mixture in a plastic bottle and it had near detonation. The bottle has thick walls, so the damage to it wasn't that bad but the violence and sound of it was comparable to about 1g of detonated flash powder. Will have to wait another 2 months for a full scale test, though. Weather has to be right.

Energetic Einstein - 15-4-2014 at 14:15

What do you intend to gain from this experiment?

roXefeller - 15-4-2014 at 14:44

Or what can you gain from a "full scale" test that you can't from a 10L test? Most DDT tests in the past using gas explosives were done on a small scale in a laboratory shock tube.

Bert - 15-4-2014 at 17:29

I wouldn't worry too much about nehorlavazapalka. He left in a huff because of moderator nazis.

Does anyone know what his handle meant? "Quick match" or something like it?

(Edit)
"Handle" is outdated CB radio slang in USA.

In this case, his "handle" = his user name on the madscience.org forum. Last half of name means "match" in Polish, I believe.

[Edited on 16-4-2014 by Bert]

Fantasma4500 - 16-4-2014 at 09:30

now were at FAE ...
37% HCl or another strong acid, wrapped in a plastic bag, wrapped around a core of super fine aluminium powder (pyro grade, indian blackhead, german dark?)
a half gram detonator in the core of the aluminium powder
the explosion throwing the aluminium powder into the acid within no time, creating tonnes of hydrogen at the moment it occours

im thinking perhaps magnesium or zinc powder would be better??

even more creative.. using the slightly explosive properties of NO2, making it from Mg powder or similar, perhaps even electrolytic copper powder?
making as in throwing it at high pressures into the HNO3 to create a cloud of NO2
although i have my doubts it will add any energy at all as there is often a massive NO2 cloud in 'tannerite' videos, and it takes a good portion to get the NO2 into O2 and N2..

on a sidenote: ive played abit around with explosive gas balloons as they are incredibly legal
as a massive sound nerd i realised that the gasses used made a gigantic explosion sound difference

H2 being abit alike KClO4
acetylene being alike KMnO4
and butane/propane mix being like KNO3, comparing it with the sort of sound you would end up with from a flashpowder composition using those oxidizers

KMnO4 giving off a very dull boom with tonnes of low frequencies, KNO3 giving alot of low frequencies but well balanced with high frequencies aswell, and KClO4 being overall just sharp in the bang
amazingly enough as i attached a flying fish fuse without thinking twice about it on a max loaded balloon with H2/O2 when lit the hydrogen made it drive straight up in the air, the loose fuse dumping straight onto the balloon approx 1cm or less from my hand resulting in a shattering and somehow comfortable boom
glass on the door behind me on the balcony shaking abit and scaring the shit out of the few insomniacs around still up 2 past midnight

i somehow feel that handling sensitive flash compositions in 50g amounts isnt as dangerous as handling a gas balloon... takes just a fraction of a spark to set it going, luckily without much destructive force

edit/addition: CaC2 shot into plastic bag w/ water? it has quite low explosive limit only needing about 4% oxygen present

[Edited on 16-4-2014 by Antiswat]

Acetylene Oxygen- DANGER, WIL ROBINSON!!!

Bert - 16-4-2014 at 09:50

The use of acetylene/Oxygen in bags or balloons has led to MANY accidents from static discharges. It IS a very easy way to make a huge explosive noise without much effort or skills-

So many of the people doing this have little knowledge of the high risks or basic explosives safety.

My favorite story is of the people who made large oxygen/acetylene filled balloons and drove to the party where they wanted to set them off, balloons rolling around on carpeted floor and plastic covered seats of their car generated STATIC ELECTRICITY, balloons exploded in car during the trip and blew out all windows, broke ear drums of car's occupants and caused police to come-
Quote:

ARAPAHOE COUNTY - A couple planning their own Super Bowl pyrotechnics display blew up their car and injured themselves Sunday. The Arapahoe County Sheriff's Office received several calls around 11:45 a.m. reporting, what witnesses said was a car accident or an explosion. The incident happened behind Old Duggan's Fuel Station on the 4500 block of South Santa Fe. The responding deputy found a car with it windows blown out, doors bent toward the outside and its roof pushed up a foot higher than normal, according to the sheriff's office. Officials traced the car's owner to an address in Sheridan. Officials responding to the home found two people at the residence with shrapnel wounds and ear damage. The two told Sheridan Police officers that a balloon filled with acetylene exploded in the back seat of the car. Acetylene is a highly flammable gas used in welding. The two people filled the balloon with the gas in hopes of blowing it up at a Super Bowl party. The balloon exploded after rolling across the car's backseat.
Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat  

(snip)on a sidenote: ive played abit around with explosive gas balloons as they are incredibly legal
as a massive sound nerd i realised that the gasses used made a gigantic explosion (snip)

(snip)i somehow feel that handling sensitive flash compositions in 50g amounts isnt as dangerous as handling a gas balloon... takes just a fraction of a spark to set it going, luckily without much destructive force(snip)


[Edited on 16-4-2014 by Bert]

Fantasma4500 - 28-4-2014 at 08:42

doesnt take that much to blow out windows in a closed car, tbh
however i did read about the incident, but also have i heard about incidents where soldiers in afghanistan decided to take some 200L garbage bags and fill in OB acetylene/oxygen, where as it was being filled static electricity spark went across the inside of the plastic bag and more or less ripped their clothes off in the explosion, how far they got with filling 200L in the bag was not known, seemingly they had no actual damages from the blast except for ringing ears

slower explosions are more effective against closed rooms aka closed cars or as in 'brainiac' where they demonstrate how butane/oxygen can blow apart wooden cabinets
the destructive force in free air is relatively low, however, but as seen with the guy who brought a gigantic balloon in his car it can still push out windows (push.. so gently to put it)

Bert - 28-4-2014 at 09:55

My experience with a 30 gallon trash bag of a lean oxy acetylene mix fired at about 3 foot distance ended up with both my eardrums broken, severe bruising on the side facing the explosion (seams of my clothing and shirt buttons were printed out in broken capilaries on the skin of my chest-). Plus very brief loss of consciousness and coming back to awareness treading water in a river that was a couple of feet behind my starting position. I also lost my glasses.

Do you know how hard it is to explain yourself to an ER's intake staff when you can't hear them?

Fantasma4500 - 29-4-2014 at 02:26

very interesting, that could point towards they didnt even get to fill the bag up very much before it went bang..
has your hearing returned since then however? a 5 litre acetylene oxygen 5:1 mix in a balloon 10 metres away surely gave a push on the ears as i never felt it before, however more low frequency sounds..

however i can imagine that you would need to resort to typing in that situation

another thing -- 30 litres and approx 1 metre away.. bruising on the face? would never hae expected such power from just simple gas, may i with your consent quote you on the thread about safety distance from blasts as an example?

Dornier 335A - 29-4-2014 at 06:43

Gas detonations typically reach detonation pressures of around 20 bars, so I can imagine that you get some bruises when that thing slaps you in the face.