Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Primary Explosive questions

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jjgoh - 24-12-2013 at 02:00

Hey guys , I'm new to here but not to pyrotechnics.
I want to make some primary explosive, they look interesting to me.
I do handle whistle mix, Armstrong mixture, flash powder, black powder and some pyrotechnics composition.
They are two primary explosive in my mind because of the chemical availability. There are HMTD and TATP. To make this two primary, I got the chemicals like acetone, hexamine, citric acid (prills) , 98% H2SO4,H2O2 (6% & 35%)one acid look like HCL. The unknown acid didn't state what acid in it. When I open the caps it was fuming like hell and my nose are hurt. Any idea? It state as mosaic bleach cleaner.
After some reading, I realise people's prefer TATP than HMTD. I'm not afraid mixing them in ice bath. I just super worried on storage and the process in the fridge for 24 hours. I worried that it will explode in the fridge. How to store TATP? Some people said store it with water and place it into freezer. My question is.. Will it frost the water and TATP?
How about temperature?
Mine room temperature are ~~30°C, humidity ~~75-86%
How about store in PET, Amber glass, tupperware, plastic lid?
Will they ignite without flame? Will they explode when diaper mix them? (just to make sure it in powder former)
Does the bang as loud as Armstrong mix?
Can I transport tatp to somewhere else? Like forest to do test.

Thanks! I want to ask before I make tatp
Do I qualify to make tatp? I had some experience with low explosive and Armstrong mix
Safer than sorry.


[Edited on 24-12-2013 by jjgoh]

VladimirLem - 24-12-2013 at 05:48

Hi

First: i would go for HMTD, not TATP...it seems to be -A BIT- more stable than TATP**

then, you better store the material at the fridge for 2-5C...normal room temperature (17C-22C) is NOT good, 30C as you said seems to be dangerous!
Do not put the material into a glass jar or other kind of container, so if set off it will only deflagrate and not detonate (only at small batches!!)...

i have no experience at the armstong mixture but at a hammer test with only around 0.05g i got a tinitus! (for 2 hours)
BTW, i would be damn careful with that mixture too....(per-)chlorates and phosphor/sulfur are damn sensitive to friction/shock

TIP: If you want to stay at the 10fingers-club, only make small batches*** of HMTD (or TATP, if you cant resist)

i wouldn't use H2SO4 to make peroxides...take the citric acid...works pretty good and seems less dangerous...

befor making initial-caps with peroxides...make sure you know a bit how
sensitive they are (hammer test, friction test) AND do always use completly DRY material !!!

**but peroxides are fu*king dangerous, so be CAREFUL.
***1-3g at a time, not more

...last but not least, BE FUCKING CAREFUL !!!

jjgoh - 24-12-2013 at 06:28

I will, thanks for your reply and merry Christmas :)
Except peroxide base primary explosive. Any other famous primary explosive recipe. I need substitution for some chemical like drain opener as h2so4. Seems Like h2so4 very famous and a lot of people use it. Citric acid is a weak acid. Will it work too?
In my country it's summer all the way.. Highest temperature are 34C but I don't know why my room is 30C+-.. It's heaty when noon.
I will try measure the temp in my safe box that I use to store explosive. I am buying a military bullet heavy metal case and put them inside.
You make the hmtd too?
Any formula? I want make 2g in batch only.. I got problems with my maths.. Maybe I didn't count those in small quantities before. FMI, my scale only support 1g not 0.1g.
If I can get kclo3, I won't be here :) I love explosive man.
Share me guide instead of flame me :)
Thanks! Merry Christmas

Marvin - 24-12-2013 at 10:06

Buy a better scale. 0.1g resolution scales are cheap on ebay. A scale that weighs in multiples of 1g will not weigh out 2g very accurately.

If you have hexamine, citric acid and hydrogen peroxide you don't need to mess with Acetone peroxide. Read Tenney L. Davis.

Armstrong's mixture is illegal in a lot of countries.

It's a natural impulse to want to keep what you've made, but you are best not storing it at all. Especially if you have no means of purifying it. Make, use, destroy any residue.

Ral123 - 24-12-2013 at 11:14

Wash acetone peroxide well with distilled water. Dry and store in a mineral water bottle, not more then few grams, in very dark place at lowest temperature possible. Put appropriate labels. Hold the bottle with gloves, ear protection and googles, as far away from the material as possible.

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 24-12-2013 at 13:00

Member phone died making TATP, so maybe make a gram no more. Nitrocellulose is fun too.

caterpillar - 24-12-2013 at 15:10

Quote: Originally posted by DubaiAmateurRocketry  
Member phone died making TATP, so maybe make a gram no more. Nitrocellulose is fun too.


For what? NC is not a primary at all and was used in shells one hundred years ago (before TNP). One gr of TATP is enough to make 5-8 detonators. Make some RDX -t is not very problematic, but requires lots of nitric acid. 1 gr of RDX + 0.2 gr of TATP (do not mix them! Put TATP onto pressed tablet of RDX) will be enough to initiate explosives even with low sensibility like AN + Al.

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 24-12-2013 at 15:15

Quote: Originally posted by caterpillar  
Quote: Originally posted by DubaiAmateurRocketry  
Member phone died making TATP, so maybe make a gram no more. Nitrocellulose is fun too.


For what? NC is not a primary at all and was used in shells one hundred years ago (before TNP). One gr of TATP is enough to make 5-8 detonators. Make some RDX -t is not very problematic, but requires lots of nitric acid. 1 gr of RDX + 0.2 gr of TATP (do not mix them! Put TATP onto pressed tablet of RDX) will be enough to initiate explosives even with low sensibility like AN + Al.


he made few hundred grams of TATP and... yeah you know what happens.. Well i suggested NC because normally new people here asking for few suggestion really just want to see some flame and have some fun.

Bot0nist - 24-12-2013 at 15:24

I agree with dubia that TCAP is not very amatuer friendly, and NC is a better starting material for those intrested in energetics, but it is not a primary, which is what he needs/wants. If you can make RDX or NC then you can surely make a much better primary than a crappy peroxide. If yroir set on peroxides np amount of schoolmarming from we will stop you. Be safe and work smart and SMALL.

[Edited on 24-12-2013 by Bot0nist]

jjgoh - 24-12-2013 at 19:30

First i want to say that , Secondary Explosives is overlimit and not for me . I don't want mess with secondary explosives ( yes, i know there are safer than primary alot ) but still not interest in destroy something . I would like to try out HMTD seems you guys prefer me , i bought Hexamine Tablet from Ace Hardware , Citric Acid ( Cleaning 99%) and for the H2O2 i can get 6% with 0.1% stabilizer easily but for 32% Food Grade H2O2 i need to order online .
I coudn't get nitric acid and H2O2* 32%
After Check Out lot of books and chemistry ,
They are 3 primary explosives i can make with my current chemicals . ( Maybe only this two or others )
HMTD and TATP ,Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide ( No idea )
I need some guide on HMTD , because HMTD infos , videos lesser than TATP .

Correct me if i am wrong ,
Do HMTD 1grm sounds like PERCHLORATE+Black Indian AL Powder ?
As you guys said TATP is super sensitives , how do you guys press into a cap ?
NC is fun but not as fun as primary , i try out once with nighthawkinlight tutorials , it work pretty well..but boring!

Chemistry is fun man , thanks for those who answer my questions ! :D

*can get it but just cant make sure the seller got stock .

[Edited on 25-12-2013 by jjgoh]

[Edited on 25-12-2013 by jjgoh]

Ral123 - 24-12-2013 at 22:43

Low energy materials like AP/HMTD sound a lot weaker then flash. Here's a video that you might find interesting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHT-mq16Y30

caterpillar - 25-12-2013 at 03:27

TATP is more powerful than TNT. And it sounds very loud- when I first time made it, I wrapped 0.5 gr of it with tinfoil, put this charge onto a tablet of dry fuel and ignited this tablet. Sound was remarkable sharp and loud. I pressed TATP, using ordinary pencil. There is another simple primary- Ag2C2*AgNO3.

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 25-12-2013 at 04:37

Quote: Originally posted by caterpillar  
TATP is more powerful than TNT. And it sounds very loud- when I first time made it, I wrapped 0.5 gr of it with tinfoil, put this charge onto a tablet of dry fuel and ignited this tablet. Sound was remarkable sharp and loud. I pressed TATP, using ordinary pencil. There is another simple primary- Ag2C2*AgNO3.


TATP is not more powerful than TNT.

for primaries, why not make Nickle hydrazine nitrate (NHN) ? All you need is hydrazine hydrate and nickle nitrate.

[Edited on 25-12-2013 by DubaiAmateurRocketry]

jjgoh - 25-12-2013 at 04:54

I never heard about NHN. any idea how to get these chemical? Don't ask me search on ebay or what. I need to find product that use these chemicals and I obtain from the product. I got problem getting kclo3 and al powder.

Ral123 - 25-12-2013 at 08:05

Quote: Originally posted by caterpillar  
TATP is more powerful than TNT. And it sounds very loud- when I first time made it, I wrapped 0.5 gr of it with tinfoil, put this charge onto a tablet of dry fuel and ignited this tablet. Sound was remarkable sharp and loud. I pressed TATP, using ordinary pencil. There is another simple primary- Ag2C2*AgNO3.

Look at the video. It's far less powerful, also the next video is comparison with TNP. It gives somewhat of an idea of the energy density of the both. Also 0.2g can work as primary at best case. 1g and a base charge is more realistic.

caterpillar - 25-12-2013 at 12:35

I took info from this: http://pirochem.net/index.php?id1=3&category=chemvvisost... . Next page contents data on ability to initiate secondaries. 0.18 gr of TATP, pressed with cup, initiates TNT. It means, that 0.2 gr is more than enough to wake RDX up.

jjgoh - 26-12-2013 at 00:39

Do potassium chlorate + sulfur or potassium chlorate + phosphorus vod higher than hmtd or tatp? I burn a batch of kclo3+phosphorus and it make a thump sounds and I feel the energy wave hit my chest
The mix is extracted from caps gun bullet contain kclo3+phosphorus +sulfur

Ral123 - 26-12-2013 at 02:48

Quote: Originally posted by caterpillar  
I took info from this: http://pirochem.net/index.php?id1=3&category=chemvvisost... . Next page contents data on ability to initiate secondaries. 0.18 gr of TATP, pressed with cup, initiates TNT. It means, that 0.2 gr is more than enough to wake RDX up.

IIRC they use 0.5g azide in commercial caps, instead of 0.05g. For the sake of reliability, I don't think 0,2g is a good idea. I know a movie of an ETN/NG charge failed miserebly because of poor design of the "AP detonator" and poor understanding of the seconadry. They also use thick walls, thin bottom for the azide part of the blast cap btw.

Marvin - 26-12-2013 at 05:30

Acetone peroxide is not super sensitive, but the precursors are easy to get and so it is made a lot by people too lazy to make safer explosives. It sublimes/decomposes readily, a few grams in open air just flash when ignited. When mildly confined it does detonate and it is an effective and very brisant explosive. A dangerous combination of properties in anything but small amounts.

Primary explosives tend to give sharp snap, the higher the VoD the sharper. For a proper bang, black powder in a cardboard tube is often preferred.

Regarding NC suggestion by DubaiAmateurRocketry, it isn't a primary explosive, it flashes in the open air and wrapped in paper and sellotape apparently produces quite a loud bang, but it requires large amounts of good acid and purification is very time consuming.

jjgoh - 26-12-2013 at 06:27

I guess I go for hmtd guys.. I got citric acid 99%(200g), conc H2SO4, hexamine fuel tablet, h2o2 35%
What is the process? Same like tatp? Let's make a poll between which of them is better to make in your opinion and reason. Then if tatp won I will get acetone and make it. Currently I got no beaker or lab glassware. Do I need to get one or get a mayonnaise jar will do?
Do PET bottle generate static?

plante1999 - 26-12-2013 at 06:29

Oh god, can any moderator do something here? This guy might hurt himself...

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 26-12-2013 at 06:35

uhh, most new people dosnt get it, until they lose a finger or a hand.

Click here To watch an accident on organo peroxide.

I hope this serves as a warning for the OP. I strongly suggest you make 1 gram.. with thick gloves. and eye protection.

NexusDNA - 26-12-2013 at 06:41

Why don't you try something less suicidal to begin with? Organic peroxides are nasty, and there are many other primaries which are more suited for the new experimenter.

jjgoh - 26-12-2013 at 06:54

Okay okay.. Sorry guys . I should follow step by step. Thanks anyway

jjgoh - 26-12-2013 at 06:56

So what should I do right now? Read more information on safety?
Oh god! That's seriously freaking dangerous! I guess I should not touch any primary first. Why that thing self ignite or the fuse is short?
Thanks for the video mate, I think it's a video for newbie who want mess with it

[Edited on 26-12-2013 by jjgoh]

NexusDNA - 26-12-2013 at 07:09

You should read about safety straightaway. Also, try to understand the chemistry behind it, there are a few research-oriented texts here in the EM board (these are the ones you should look for, and not youtube k3wl videos).
Least but last, acquire at least some beakers. You can't make anything in a mayonnese jar.

[Edited on 26-12-2013 by NexusDNA]

jjgoh - 26-12-2013 at 07:19

How do I know that I ready to make? Well thanks. I will read it. To be honest the guy with explosive in hand really bad luck. Scary! .

VladimirLem - 26-12-2013 at 10:56

Quote: Originally posted by jjgoh  
How do I know that I ready to make?


most of your questions wouldn't have been asked if you have read much/"enough" about these compounds and showing us that you realize what kind of dangerous stuff they are...

your questions seems like "oh explosives? cool, how can i make it, i have these chems...hurry answer my questions i wanna make it and give a sh*t about your warnings"

i think sombody i never "ready" for this stuff, only aware enough to handle it as save as possible and with much respect. then, your chances should be ~okay to stay at the 10finger-club...and even THEN, accidents can always happen :(


Bot0nist - 26-12-2013 at 11:11

What Vlad said...

Half a gram of dry TCAP pressed and slightly confined is way faster than flash and will easily rearrange your hands for you, and at the slightest provocation... My advice, wait till you can make better primaries if you need them that bad. Peroxides are a non starter in my book. I have first hand experience with MEKP and TCAP as well as HMTD. Scary sensitive and hard to work with. Also very wicked. Even in the 100mg range. I know half of you thinks im just nannying you. Thats fine. Hope you never find out for yourself.

Be safe.

[Edited on 26-12-2013 by Bot0nist]

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 26-12-2013 at 11:38

If you want to start with some easy primaries. as I suggested, Nickle hydrazine nitrate (NHN), simply use nickle nitrate + hydrazine hydrate(toxic). Or lead azide(toxic), which is also easy to make once you have Sodium azide(toxic). Those are just as sensitive as TATP however at least they dont have a bad reputation and wont get you flamed in the forums.

If you go for secondary, strong suggestion is 5-Amino-1,2,3,4-Tetrazolium Nitrate(5ATZN) It has an impact sensitivity of around 10J (RDX is 6J) and a friction sensitivity off the scale. 5ATZN is one of easiest and most stable and energetic(VoD 9000) tetrazole salt you can make, simply add Amino tetrazole and dilute nitric acid. You can also try RDX.

Bot0nist - 26-12-2013 at 11:48

I am not flaming Dubai. I think primaries are not for beginners, and the two you mentioned are not ideal either. All primaries are sensitive. Organic peroxides are stupid. For many reasons. Im done schoolmarming. Just concerned for our new friends digits is all.

[Edited on 26-12-2013 by Bot0nist]

caterpillar - 26-12-2013 at 14:26

Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist  
I am not flaming Dubai. I think primaries are not for beginners, and the two you mentioned are not ideal either. All primaries are sensitive. Organic peroxides are stupid. For many reasons. Im done schoolmarming. Just concerned for our new friends digits is all.

[Edited on 26-12-2013 by Bot0nist]


Well, but how do you plan to initiate secondaries without primary? Put it into steel box and set fire under it? OK, in such case one may start with kalium picrate. This compound is less sensitive, than any usual primary, but exploded, been ignited in confinement. And you needn't thick steel container- a tin from under beer is good enough. As for me, I used TATP and has no problem with it. 1 gr was enough to initiate mixture of AN + ammonium picrate. This is why I sure, that 0.2 gr of TATP, having direct contact with pressed RDX will be enough.

Bot0nist - 26-12-2013 at 14:56

I dont have such plans, but if I did maybe...

A small amount ofSilver acetylide DS 》 ETN or TNP in a compound cap 》secondary or tertiary. Sure maybe 1 gram of pressed TCAP will do it, but a gram of sensitive, unstable primary over a few 100mg of a better and slightly safer primary to induce my explosive train sounds much better to me. 1 gram of pressed TCAP with a fuse in it...You have brass ball, IMHO. I wouldnt have the nerve to carry it, let alone to insert it into a base charge. (*Shudder..)

[Edited on 26-12-2013 by Bot0nist]

Turner - 26-12-2013 at 15:08

B0tonist, TNP is a poor base charge in a blasting cap for it's reactivity (with metal and metal salts)
SA*DS is a good primary, I use it with an ETN base charge .25g/.7g. RDX is a good base charge, SADS is not recommended w/ RDX because reasonable amounts of SADS won't detonate the RDX reliably.

You can experiment/research with NPED's. Something's telling me there has to be a way to make an NPED reliable, we just haven't found it yet. I'd use an ordinary cap over an NPED today, but I'd use an NPED over any peroxide any day of the week.


Whatever you do, do not start walking up to a charge w/ an NPED detonator thinking it didn't work without waiting for a bit.

[Edited on 26-12-2013 by Turner]

Hennig Brand - 26-12-2013 at 15:26

I found kalium (potassium) picrate about as useful as tits on a bull for initiating purposes, maybe an acceptable flash igniter though.

What is wrong with TNP and aluminum? Unless there is moisture the reaction between metal and TNP is extremely slow and in the case of aluminum the picrate is actually less sensitive than pure TNP. Not all picrates are more sensitive than TNP. With TNP, however, caps have to be made bigger, because of a relatively large critical diameter and to accommodate the larger amount of TNP to do the same job as many of the alternatives. It is also relatively insensitive so more primary has to be used than is needed for most other base charges (such as the solid nitrate esters & RDX). Picric acid is however a very safe initiator to use with fairly high VOD and initiating ability and it is extremely storage stable.

I am just estimating but I bet a person could accomplish more, much of the time in terms of initiation, with 0.2 g of lead azide than with a gram of acetone peroxide. Even if the 2 were equally hazardous, weight for weight, which I don't believe they are, using just 0.2 g vs. 1 g would result in a huge reduction in danger. Acetone peroxide sublimes and is lost if left uncovered or forms those big beautiful crystals if covered in a matter of weeks. I used to cringe at the sound they would make (crunching sound) when a gram or so was pressed into a paper casing (what was I thinking?). Most primaries, that are used, have properties that are much more consistent than TATP from batch to batch and stable with storage and time. One of the biggest annoyances for me was having crappy peroxide primaries that either sublime or changed in some undesirable way in a matter of days or weeks. It is a real joy to be able to use a fraction of the primary explosive weight that is needed with peroxides and also to come back to it a year later and the change in the material is basically so small as to be unperceivable. It is good to know how to make and use peroxides, but really there are many better choices for your regular use primary. It will, of course, take a little more effort though.

BTW, I am not really that invested one way or the other whether you use this primary or that primary. I have a little time on my hands lately and decided to tell you a little about my experiences.

[Edited on 27-12-2013 by Hennig Brand]

Bot0nist - 26-12-2013 at 16:06

Turner, TNP is a great booster and a great material in itself. All the briscance you'd need amd insensitive enough to handle yett sensitive enough for a tiny compound cap to do the trick. Very pure TNP is a wonderful product. You have to watch out for some metal compatiblities, but much less so than HTMD. I also never recommended it as a main charge, though it could be one, but as a booster or component in a compound cap.

Some good advice. Do a search and read every post by quicksilver and rosco bodine in the EM section. Hennig's posts too for that matter. Your off to a start, and no doubt clever, but in this hobby, never think you dont have MUCH to learn still. All I wamt is for individual research to be done, and for safety to enter into the practice. It is vital. I just want us all to exparament with what we want, but sanely is all. Call it fear mongering if you want. That is not my intention.

jjgoh - 26-12-2013 at 17:58

NHN. Seems like very toxic. There's one person make it and accidentally inhale the gas that use in WW2 as poison gas and died. . Toxic chemical usually I can't get or make it. Substitution of chemical is needed Everytime.

Nah, I guess I better read more first. I'm too rush I guess.
Don't flame me man, tell me instead of flaming me, nobody like the feel of being flame :(

How do you all test the VoD of every explosive?
As Dornier328 said Armstrong mixture can be 6000m/s
If I am not mistaken la. How does that possible? Even wikipedia said Armstrong mixture Is classified as primary high explosive. Any idea with this statement? Thanks

Bot0nist - 26-12-2013 at 18:53

You were not beimg flamed. Only looking out for you friend. Wise choice though.

[Edited on 27-12-2013 by Bot0nist]

roXefeller - 26-12-2013 at 19:37

If we keep talking about TNP, why not go a little further to DDNP. Some have mixed feelings about it when compared to LA or SA. But it's darn easy to get there if the TNP is prepared (I thought the TNP was the hardest part). Then he could load a cap with DDNP on top of TNP (or a 50/50 eutectic of DDNP/TNP), which according to this post (http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=433&am...) is more sensistive and brisant than either combined. The Na2S is a photography formulary chemical to scavenge oxygen from developer solutions, so he wouldn't need to make it in a lab. The nitrite salt is very common for meat curing. It beats playing around with subliminating AP.

caterpillar - 27-12-2013 at 00:16

Quote: Originally posted by roXefeller  
If we keep talking about TNP, why not go a little further to DDNP. Some have mixed feelings about it when compared to LA or SA. But it's darn easy to get there if the TNP is prepared (I thought the TNP was the hardest part). Then he could load a cap with DDNP on top of TNP (or a 50/50 eutectic of DDNP/TNP), which according to this post (http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=433&am...) is more sensistive and brisant than either combined. The Na2S is a photography formulary chemical to scavenge oxygen from developer solutions, so he wouldn't need to make it in a lab. The nitrite salt is very common for meat curing. It beats playing around with subliminating AP.


Have you ever made it or only read about this compound? I've read some discouraging things about it. After reduction of TNP to picramic acid one has to remove sulfur from precipitate, and this op requires toxic, volatile and flammable CS2. And as a primary DDNP is nothing but shit. It is sensitive to friction and is used to ignite something- for example, in rifle's cups. If you have TNP, you may use its lead salt as a primary. It is not very efficient, but 1gr most likely will be enough to initiate pressed TNP I made TNP many times. Simple and clean procedure (been properly performed, of course). And I suspect, that contact of lead azide with TNP may be undesirable. TNP is an acid, and stronger one than HN3.

Etanol - 27-12-2013 at 05:31

Quote: Originally posted by jjgoh  

How do you all test the VoD of every explosive?
As Dornier328 said Armstrong mixture can be 6000m/s
If I am not mistaken la. How does that possible? Even wikipedia said Armstrong mixture Is classified as primary high explosive. Any idea with this statement? Thanks


Not 6000 !
Explosion velocity 25% P+ 75% KClO3 is 600 m / s
(density 1.45 g/cm3 in plastig tube 4.8 mm )

Marvin - 27-12-2013 at 09:38

600m/s sounds low for a detonation. Do you have a reference for that?

Most of the alternatives in the thread are tricky or toxic. Blackpowder and NC have the advantage that they are not primary explosives and will give a good bang.

VladimirLem - 27-12-2013 at 11:00

Quote: Originally posted by Marvin  
600m/s sounds low for a detonation. Do you have a reference for that?


he is talking about a deflagration.

in hugh quantities and an initial-cap it can detonate, yes...
then it has around 2800-3500m/s...that are around the values of cheditte (xCLO3+carbon-containing stuff) - i doubt that it can exceed the 3500...

Etanol - 27-12-2013 at 11:36

Quote: Originally posted by Marvin  
600m/s sounds low for a detonation. Do you have a reference for that?


Measured using an ionization sensor and an oscilloscope.
This is not a deflagration. More like a low-velocity detonation.
Explosion passed through metal barriers. Due to the pressure. No heat transfer or hot particles.
All mixes fuel - oxidizer explode in this mode.
another example:
33% Pb (H2PO2) 2 + 67% Pb (NO3) 2
in 4.8mm plastic tube
1.4 g/cm3 238 +/- 5 m/s
2.0 g/cm3 304 +/- 6 m/s
This is less than the speed of sound in air! (330 m/s). But the explosion did not fit the definition of deflagration.

Explosion velocity of cheditte I have not tested.Maybe the truth more than 2000.

[Edited on 27-12-2013 by Etanol]

Hennig Brand - 27-12-2013 at 12:10

I have never successfully made DDNP, though I have attempted the synthesis using sulfur a couple of times, so I can't give a firsthand account regarding relative performance. I have been reading from these forums and from texts a lot in the last few years and the consensus seems to be that pure DDNP (not in a primer mixture) would be a very good initiator, but the synthesis for most is full of problems and that effort would be better spent on a different primary.

Rosco stated that lead picrate was a very poor initiator for picric acid, and from my own tests I would have to agree with him. If anyone here can make it work, please show how you got it to work because it would be an extremely useful process. Depending on the size and design of the cap, initiating picric acid can be difficult even with better initiators. Many homemade picric acid samples probably have at least 1-2% DNP in them, which would significantly reduce sensitivity relative to a pure sample (nothing is 100% pure, but you get the idea). I don't have exact numbers to quote, but especially in small diameters approaching the critical diameter for the pure material small amounts of impurities could make a big difference.

TNP is a much stronger acid (pKa 0.38 vs. pKa 4.6 for hydrazoic acid), but its solubility in water especially at normal temperatures is quite low (lead azide also has very low solubility in water). The two dry solids are also only in contact at the interface between the base charge and primary in the cap. With low moisture content (both lead azide and picric acid are non hygroscopic), and a hermetically sealed blasting cap casing, reaction between the two should be extremely minimal. I have stored caps of this type for several weeks and they didn't show any signs of decomposition. It is possible to put some sort of thin barrier between the base charge and primary if it is deemed appropriate as well. Of course the best advice is to not store materials and components of this nature. Observing these materials over time can give valuable information though, if done carefully.

[Edited on 28-12-2013 by Hennig Brand]

Ral123 - 27-12-2013 at 12:19

Quote: Originally posted by Hennig Brand  
I found kalium (potassium) picrate about as useful as tits on a bull for initiating purposes, maybe an acceptable flash igniter though.

[Edited on 27-12-2013 by Hennig Brand]

I have the feeling that if you allow the Lead/Potassium picrate to DDT in a thick walled metal tube, you'll have pretty good velocity and energy density at the bottom, where for example may be TNP. It may just take 5grams instead of 0.5 if it was azide.

To all that ones who claim AP is inefficient primary-it wakes up Tetryl in the confinement of a straw:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGY1pPwyduE

Dany - 27-12-2013 at 12:48

Quote: Originally posted by Etanol  
Measured using an ionization sensor and an oscilloscope.
This is not a deflagration. More like a low-velocity detonation.
Explosion passed through metal barriers. Due to the pressure. No heat transfer or hot particles.
All mixes fuel - oxidizer explode in this mode.
another example:
33% Pb (H2PO2) 2 + 67% Pb (NO3) 2
in 4.8mm plastic tube
1.4 g/cm3 238 +/- 5 m/s
2.0 g/cm3 304 +/- 6 m/s
This is less than the speed of sound in air! (330 m/s). But the explosion did not fit the definition of deflagration.

Explosion velocity of cheditte I have not tested.Maybe the truth more than 2000.

[Edited on 27-12-2013 by Etanol]

Can you explain to me what do you mean by "This is less than the speed of sound in air! (330 m/s). But the explosion did not fit the definition of deflagration"?

Dany.

Hennig Brand - 27-12-2013 at 13:01

@ Ral123
I found AP worked just fine for dynamite for example, but when I tried using it to initiate picric acid it was just frustration after frustration. At one point I tried to initiate 1.5 or 2 g of picric acid (high purity) in a 3/8" aluminum tube with 1 g or more of very well pressed AP. The result was no detonation, but a lovely yellow cloud of vaporised picric acid. From reading, apparently it was a common scene on the battle field during the years picric acid was used in shells and such to see big clouds of yellow smoke (which was sometimes mistaken for a poison gas attack).

I think that was one of the big reasons for changing from picric acid to tetryl, it was easier to initiate, more reliable and more powerful as well.

[Edited on 27-12-2013 by Hennig Brand]

roXefeller - 27-12-2013 at 13:45

Caterpillar

Like I said, some have mixed feelings about it compared to LA, SA, or others. It might be sensitive to friction, but not like AP.

I made it recently, but haven't had a chance to press it into a cap. I agree the TNP should be easy, but I strayed and tried to use ammonium nitrate as the nitrate salt. So it gave me a little trouble, that and my temps were usually only running in the 105 range, not high enough for timely yields, so I ended up with a dirty, but functional TNP. Like I said, my hardest part was the the TNP. I sourced Na2S.3H2O from a photo supplier, so I didn't have any residual sulfur in the picramic acid resulting from the NaOH/S step. I will say that I tried sodium ascorbate but I couldn't get it to reduce, probably a matter of temperature. Technical grade Na2S is really the trick, because it also reduces at low temperatures. The DDNP flashed cleanly unconfined, and I never noticed precipitated sulfur. But I could just be dumb about these things. I can't say anything about effectiveness. You may be right that it isn't effective for detonating, I can't say, but maybe Mark Gollum can chime in (https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=43...) since he has a similar experience on the reduction.

Once I get it pressed, I'll try it in sand to check it for proper detonation/brisance. There are some journal articles I can use to compare this against, which at least hold up the perfectly made product as being capable, if only as a mid-tier compound. I guess my point is, I'd rather the OP be frustrated trying to perfect his method than fall out of the 10finger club going after the low peroxide fruit. He could go the other way and go after the top shelf primaries.



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Attachment: DDNP Chapter 6 from Primary Explosives - Matyas, Pachman.pdf (454kB)
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Ral123 - 27-12-2013 at 14:00

Quote: Originally posted by Hennig Brand  
@ Ral123
I found AP worked just fine for dynamite for example, but when I tried using it to initiate picric acid it was just frustration after frustration. At one point I tried to initiate 1.5 or 2 g of picric acid (high purity) in a 3/8" aluminum tube with 1 g or more of very well pressed AP. The result was no detonation, but a lovely yellow cloud of vaporised picric acid. From reading, apparently it was a common scene on the battle field during the years picric acid was used in shells and such to see big clouds of yellow smoke (which was sometimes mistaken for a poison gas attack).

I think that was one of the big reasons for changing from picric acid to tetryl, it was easier to initiate, more reliable and more powerful as well.

[Edited on 27-12-2013 by Hennig Brand]

It worked with a cardboard tube and a little AP for me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hopnxUnyxAQ
It did fail where the Tetryl went off however(the straw test)

Hennig Brand - 27-12-2013 at 14:21

Good job. I think the time I vaporized the picric acid I was probably getting pretty close to detonation. I did get the picric acid to detonate, soon after though, with HMTD and a little silver fulminate on top to reduce the time to make DDT. I remember, during the AP tests, that I did have the TNP pressed to a very high density, so reducing the density a bit especially near the primary probably would have helped. What diameter was your charge and what were the weights of AP and TNP used? Do you have any idea what densities the TNP and AP were pressed to? Was your TNP in large crystals or fine crystals?

I noticed in one of your videos that you mentioned using salicylic acid, sulfuric acid and fuming HNO3 to make the TNP. You should have had excellent purity. I have tested my TNP (made from ASA, NaNO3 and Sulfuric acid), by melting point determination, and it measured at least 98% pure. I wonder if even 1 to 2% of DNP or other contaminant might make a big difference in terms of sensitivity in the small diameters of a cap.


[Edited on 27-12-2013 by Hennig Brand]

Ral123 - 27-12-2013 at 15:02

Isn't silver fulminate supposed to be even more sensitive then HMTD?
In my test, the catdboard tube was about 9mm, the TNP was hammered well with a bolt. Not recrystalized, only washed material(powder). With some hand pressed TNP on top. The AP was hand pressed with dense paper rod. Was there direct contact of the primary and TNP in your test? Do you know if washed only TNP can be stored like, indefinitely at room temperature and in dark?

Hennig Brand - 27-12-2013 at 15:25

Well it was not something I planned on making a habit of. In fact it was the first and last time I ever used silver fulminate in a cap. The amount used was very small (~0.05 g or so) and was only used because at the time it was what I had that made DDT very quickly in tiny amounts (just like an azide). It was the first time I was able to detonate TNP. Up until then it was just failed attempts with TATP. In the "picric acid different instructions" thread, I believe I discussed it back in 2009 or 2010 around the time I did the experiments.

HMTD is more powerful than AP, but it still takes significant time and column height to make DDT. By using a little silver fulminate on top the whole charge of HMTD is able to detonate high order and not just what was left after it has made DDT on its own.

I don't think TNP is degraded much by light IIRC. In general, compounds tend to have increased storage stability as purity increases. TNP is extremely storage stable, but I am not sure how different contaminants in different concentrations will affect it. My TNP is always recrystallized at least once from water, with very slow cooling of the hot, near saturated solution in order to produce large, pure crystals of TNP (as per Rosco's instructions).


[Edited on 28-12-2013 by Hennig Brand]

caterpillar - 27-12-2013 at 22:18

Quote: Originally posted by roXefeller  
Caterpillar

Like I said, some have mixed feelings about it compared to LA, SA, or others. It might be sensitive to friction, but not like AP.

I made it recently, but haven't had a chance to press it into a cap. I agree the TNP should be easy, but I strayed and tried to use ammonium nitrate as the nitrate salt. So it gave me a little trouble, that and my temps were usually only running in the 105 range, not high enough for timely yields, so I ended up with a dirty, but functional TNP. Like I said, my hardest part was the the TNP. I sourced Na2S.3H2O from a photo supplier, so I didn't have any residual sulfur in the picramic acid resulting from the NaOH/S step. I will say that I tried sodium ascorbate but I couldn't get it to reduce, probably a matter of temperature. Technical grade Na2S is really the trick, because it also reduces at low temperatures. The DDNP flashed cleanly unconfined, and I never noticed precipitated sulfur. But I could just be dumb about these things. I can't say anything about effectiveness. You may be right that it isn't effective for detonating, I can't say, but maybe Mark Gollum can chime in (https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=43...) since he has a similar experience on the reduction.

Once I get it pressed, I'll try it in sand to check it for proper detonation/brisance. There are some journal articles I can use to compare this against, which at least hold up the perfectly made product as being capable, if only as a mid-tier compound. I guess my point is, I'd rather the OP be frustrated trying to perfect his method than fall out of the 10finger club going after the low peroxide fruit. He could go the other way and go after the top shelf primaries.



OK, let's sum my own experience up. Mercury fulminate- worked well, AN + 10% of some shit which I suspected was dinitronaphtalene. Charge went off in my immediate vicinity. There was no pain at all. Ag2C2- I made a big mistake, using ammonia solution of AgNO3 (I had to use 10% HNO3!). This shit sounded well, but was unable to initiate TNP. TATP was my last choice, and it worked more than effective. I cannot say about TNP, but mixture of ammonium picrate with AN, which is most likely less sensitive than pure TNP went off, Same thing with ammonium stiphnate and R-salt. I did not try to use kalium picrate as a primary. It goes off, been ignited in confinement.

jjgoh - 28-12-2013 at 02:01

Sorry for Interrupt the topic you all chatting,
I found one fulminating powder aka yellow powder it clarify as high explosive from some pyrotechnics forums. I don't have potassium carbonate and I dk where to get it. I get kno3+sodium benzoate +sulfur, when it melt it make a loud bang. If you burn directly it just burn slowly. Is this true
?
Okay back to topic
Seems like tatp are effective, some people said peroxides are sucks because of the unpredictable detonated. Ddnp seems okay but picric acid I got no idea how it's made and I not familiar or heard those chemicals needed to make picric acid. Is pure AN prills explosive?

Marvin - 28-12-2013 at 04:21

It's your topic, they are supposed to stick to it.

For yellow powder sodium carbonate will work instead, but it will not keep as well. You can heat baking soda or washing soda until it decomposes/dehydrates to anhydrous sodium carbonate. The solution is high order when hot. If sodium benzoate works it is certainly not ideal. Some of the chemistry is against it.

For other answers read "The chemistry of powder and explosives" by Tenney L Davis. It's in the Sciencemadness library.

jjgoh - 28-12-2013 at 05:13

Thanks!
If higher density for a explosive, does it deal more damage? I'm reading the chemistry of powder and explosive
Actually you guys can continue the topics , I am reading it and learning it from you all. :)

[Edited on 28-12-2013 by jjgoh]

roXefeller - 28-12-2013 at 09:47

I want to avoid spoonfeeding, but ammonium nitrate prills can detonate read this current thread (http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=28164#...). I'll let you look for ammonium nitrate (AN) mixtures to see how they do it.

Picric acid: I'm not sure what you are reading, but its supply list is very easy to come by. Read this post (http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=4457&a...) and so a search for the things you see, they can be found locally in my area as commercial products for another purpose. If you really can't source them then try asking specifically, or search the reagent forum.

[Edited on 28-12-2013 by roXefeller]

[Edited on 28-12-2013 by roXefeller]

Dany - 28-12-2013 at 11:28

Quote: Originally posted by jjgoh  

If higher density for a explosive, does it deal more damage?


Yes, the higher the density the higher the detonation performance of an explosive. the brisance of an explosive is tightly linked to detonation pressure Pcj (where C-J is Champan-Jouguet point) and since Pcj is proportional to density squared (ρ2) a small increase in density lead to an appreciable increase in detonation pressure. Also, detonation velocity Dcj is a linear function of ρ. The majority of powerful military high explosive fall in this category (Pcj∝ρ2 & Dcj∝ρ )
However, experiment shows that for highly non-ideal explosive like ammonium nitrate base explosive or hydrazinium azide Dcj increase with density up to a certain level, than Dcj drops as ρ continue to increase, so in these types of explosives there is an optimum density for maximum Dcj (which is not necessarily the highest possible density like in conventional monomolecular military explosive and mixtures).

Dany.

[Edited on 28-12-2013 by Dany]

Ral123 - 28-12-2013 at 13:09

Quote: Originally posted by Dany  
Quote: Originally posted by jjgoh  

If higher density for a explosive, does it deal more damage?


Yes, the higher the density the higher the detonation performance of an explosive. the brisance of an explosive is tightly linked to detonation pressure Pcj (where C-J is Champan-Jouguet point) and since Pcj is proportional to density squared (ρ2) a small increase in density lead to an appreciable increase in detonation pressure. Also, detonation velocity Dcj is a linear function of ρ. The majority of powerful military high explosive fall in this category (Pcj∝ρ2 & Dcj∝ρ )
However, experiment shows that for highly non-ideal explosive like ammonium nitrate base explosive or hydrazinium azide Dcj increase with density up to a certain level, than Dcj drops as ρ continue to increase, so in these types of explosives there is an optimum density for maximum Dcj (which is not necessarily the highest possible density like in conventional monomolecular military explosive and mixtures).

Dany.

[Edited on 28-12-2013 by Dany]

And as you mentioned in a previous post-the incompressibility of the output products. That's why lead azide is quite weak weight basis.
I didn't know the velocity is proportional to the square of the density. I just finished making 8g ETN booster for new year NM/Al charge and may be it would've been better if I had cast it, but I preferred reliability and made it pressed.

Turner - 28-12-2013 at 13:43

And you are going to detonate that where?

roXefeller - 28-12-2013 at 18:47

For that ETN booster are you hoping to reach a higher detonation velocity or do you need an appropriate velocity and an appropriate brisance to detonate the NM/Al? I was under the impression that you didn't need to have the booster velocity larger than the main charge velocity. If you can get fast enough velocities to do the job without having to sacrifice reliability (by casting) it seems like a practical optimum.

Ral123 - 28-12-2013 at 23:09

If you have cast TNP, you have a zone with pressed TNP, witch you call a booster. With my charge, the more brisant the booster is, the shorter the overall time of the explosion is. I even have the feeling that with my design, it will set off even almost pure NM, but as it's new year, I won't spare aluminium powder. The NM has a lot of hydrogen and I'm expecting some thermobaric effect also.

Turner - 29-12-2013 at 08:18

"The more brisant the booster is the shorter the overall time of the explosion is"

What do you mean?

Ral123 - 29-12-2013 at 08:32

In the charge I plan, the booster is comparable in size with the main(100ml NM/Al). I'm feeling that heavily aluminized NM can be set off with just a little AP/HMTD, but the whole thing will detonate from end to end on it's own, witch you can imagine isn't too fast. I feel like the 8+grams of ETN will send a powerful shockwave trough the 100ml charge and significantly increase performance.
ANFO is often detonated cap->400g Pentolite->few kilos high performance emulsion explosive->main ANFO charge instead of 7g Tetryl->main ANFO charge.

Dany - 29-12-2013 at 11:41

Quote: Originally posted by Ral123  
I feel like the 8+grams of ETN will send a powerful shockwave trough the 100ml charge and significantly increase performance


Increasing the booster weight doesn't mean that the main charge will detonate at higher detonation performance. a big quantity of booster will set off the main charge reliably while a more performant booster (having Dcj and Pcj greater than the main charge) will induce an overdriven detonation wave in the explosive (main charge) that will decay with time/distance as it travel inside the explosive, finally the charge will continue to detonate according to it's own characteristic.

Dany.

Ral123 - 29-12-2013 at 11:55

Quote: Originally posted by Dany  
Quote: Originally posted by Ral123  
I feel like the 8+grams of ETN will send a powerful shockwave trough the 100ml charge and significantly increase performance


Increasing the booster weight doesn't mean that the main charge will detonate at higher detonation performance. a big quantity of booster will set off the main charge reliably while a more performant booster (having Dcj and Pcj greater than the main charge) will induce an overdriven detonation wave in the explosive (main charge) that will decay with time/distance as it travel inside the explosive, finally the charge will continue to detonate according to it's own characteristic.

Dany.

This is what I tried to say, 8g ETN @ 1.4-1.5 will surely have an effect on 100ml NM/Al 70/30. The booster case is plastic syringe with wax tamping over the ETN. It's going deep in the 100ml bottle of main material. I really expect all the superheated hydrogen that will be produced to give a nice explosion appearance.

Dany - 29-12-2013 at 12:00

and what do you mean by superheated hydrogen??? or your are trying to say another thing?

Dany.

Ral123 - 29-12-2013 at 12:39

Quote: Originally posted by Dany  
and what do you mean by superheated hydrogen??? or your are trying to say another thing?

Dany.

There are few people on this forum who would take it so literally. I wonder why they don't add Al in grenades. HE ones rely on the blast wave and the fragmentation ones need moderate brisanse to work properly.

Marvin - 29-12-2013 at 13:18

Ral123, I think you should start another thread with your ideas. This is all way off topic.

caterpillar - 30-12-2013 at 06:21

Quote: Originally posted by Dany  
Quote: Originally posted by Ral123  
I feel like the 8+grams of ETN will send a powerful shockwave trough the 100ml charge and significantly increase performance


Increasing the booster weight doesn't mean that the main charge will detonate at higher detonation performance. a big quantity of booster will set off the main charge reliably while a more performant booster (having Dcj and Pcj greater than the main charge) will induce an overdriven detonation wave in the explosive (main charge) that will decay with time/distance as it travel inside the explosive, finally the charge will continue to detonate according to it's own characteristic.

Dany.


Dear Dany, there is another way to get velocity of detonation above normal. For example, a powerful booster creates cumulative jet, which goes through explosive with hi velocity and causes detonation along its way through aforementioned explosive. So simple.

Dany - 30-12-2013 at 06:30

Dear caterpillar on what cumulative jet are you talking about and what is simple about that?

Dany.

Ral123 - 30-12-2013 at 08:22

That sound genius, but the main charge will act like one big reactive armour and maybe the performance increase will be offset by the density loss of the cavity. I've heard of such principle used in some blast caps, but I don't know why.

caterpillar - 30-12-2013 at 08:43

I read something like this about initiation of NG. Booster with cone, covered with Cu, generates cumulative jet, which may have velocity up to 15 km/sec. This jet goes through liquid NG and initiates the whole volume with such velocity. Such principle is used in at nearly each blast cups, yeah. The idea is to concentrate energy in small volume. Detonation can be achieved, using significantly smaller amount of primary. Blast cup generates small, but powerful jet. I cannot confirm such info, but one of my friends told me, that if one want to kill himself, an ordinary hand grenade must be used in a special way. It must be exploded, near one's heart in a particular position- its cumulative jet must go just through heart. Otherwise it won't kill- some scratches and contusion. He was in Afghanistan, where to be captured with locals means more than unpleasant death.

Ral123 - 30-12-2013 at 09:12

He told that 100g composition B wont kill a man, unless it's shaped charge?
Who detonates pure NG in the industry? If they do, the "copper jet" would be very hard countered by the nitro going high order.
The problem with blast cap No8 isn't that the pressure isn't high enough, but rather that the main charge wont sustain the blast wave(if it has high critical diameter, like cast TNT). For example cap with shaped bottom would be quite bad for ANFO.
I try to make boosters closest possible to dense, caseless sphere with diameter and power higher then the critical diameter and power of the secondary.

roXefeller - 30-12-2013 at 12:41

Quote: Originally posted by caterpillar  
I cannot confirm such info, but one of my friends told me, that if one want to kill himself, an ordinary hand grenade must be used in a special way. It must be exploded, near one's heart in a particular position- its cumulative jet must go just through heart. Otherwise it won't kill- some scratches and contusion. He was in Afghanistan, where to be captured with locals means more than unpleasant death.


Not to speak ill of the men over there, but this sounds like the kind of hearsay that gets passed around. Assuming the grenade isn't held right, the idea is there isn't an actual intrusion into the body. There is still a wave that will pass through. The organs of the body don't like these waves, spleens, livers etc. The aorta would likely also be damaged. I had a deer take a hit outside my house. The impact alone made split pea soup throughout the visceral organs. Liver was blown open. Liver and spleen are very vascular. No bodily intrusion though, just contusions on the skin (really big ones). All this leads to internal bleeding that likely won't be treated. At most this kind of hearsay will keep the mortally wounded combatmen from giving their kill shot over to the enemy, who would love to make the most of the fleeting moments of a wounded American.

Definitely don't want to give some lurking k3wl any ideas on EM being benign enough to defeat by staying out of the direction of shape jets.

caterpillar - 30-12-2013 at 21:58

OK, I have an explosion equal to 1-2 hand grenades not far from me- 1 m, no more. Assume, you are about to die within an hour due to internal bleeding. But it won't make you happier, if you have regained conscience and see some faces with beards around yourself. (Sorry, people, we are off- topic).

Pard - 31-12-2013 at 01:40

Quote: Originally posted by Ral123  
Quote: Originally posted by Dany  
and what do you mean by superheated hydrogen??? or your are trying to say another thing?

Dany.

There are few people on this forum who would take it so literally. I wonder why they don't add Al in grenades. HE ones rely on the blast wave and the fragmentation ones need moderate brisanse to work properly.


Yes, Al is one way to crank things up a notch. I wager it'd be used by the military all the time if not for cost. They're real cheapskates. Unbelievably so.

Also this hypothetical talking of suicideing is not a good one to be having is it. Especially considering what someone did in a mall

Graphite - 31-12-2013 at 03:02

I don't suggest HMTD or TATP or other compounds like this ,for they're very dangerous. As HMTD.under the Ipact of 0.6N.M can explore.(TATP 0.2-0.3N.m)
you can try safer primary explosives ,such as NHN ( Ni(N2H4)3(NO3)2 ).

Ral123 - 31-12-2013 at 06:10

Lol, the most generic reply since a while. You know what, I don't recommend NHN either, commercial slapper detonator is the good choice.

caterpillar - 31-12-2013 at 11:08

Quote: Originally posted by Graphite  
I don't suggest HMTD or TATP or other compounds like this ,for they're very dangerous. As HMTD.under the Ipact of 0.6N.M can explore.(TATP 0.2-0.3N.m)
you can try safer primary explosives ,such as NHN ( Ni(N2H4)3(NO3)2 ).


You should try them yourself before saying that. Make 0.1 gr and try to initiate. Hammer test, friction and so on. It seems to me, that many people take on faith things, which must be tested (scientific approach versus believer's one). Such discussion repeats same arguments many times. Well, there is another complex salt- Cu[NH3]4*[ClO3]2. Preparation looks rather simple, raw material accessible. No hydrazine.

Marvin - 31-12-2013 at 11:44

Quote: Originally posted by Ral123  
Lol, the most generic reply since a while. You know what, I don't recommend NHN either, commercial slapper detonator is the good choice.


I'm not sure "Buy a slapper detonator" is any less generic or much of an improvement in a thread dedicated to primary explosives with no interest in secondaries.

Amount is going to be the biggest part of safety. Hydrazine is toxic and Nickel salts are poisonous and carcinogenic. I think most people would be best playing with small amounts of Nitrogen triIodide than small amounts of anything more stable and toxic.

The_Davster - 31-12-2013 at 12:22

Quote: Originally posted by Marvin  
Hydrazine is toxic and Nickel salts are poisonous and carcinogenic. I think most people would be best playing with small amounts of Nitrogen triIodide than small amounts of anything more stable and toxic.


THIS.

I'd rather use TATP than fuck with hydrazine and then generate finely-divided nickel particles.

If you are going to make something fancy, go with something fancy and not excessively toxic. Like silver nitrotetrazolate or something.

jjgoh - 31-12-2013 at 17:28

How to calculate for 2g batch? Is that lot for first timer? I wanna test out my self! Anyone agree with me?


roXefeller - 31-12-2013 at 17:39

First time, test tube batches are good, or the smallest quantity whose reagents you can decently measure with your equipment and process with your method. This will demonstrate if you actually know what is going on when you get the proper result. If you don't have test tubes, use small jars or similar. A 2 g batch would probably come second, thats assuming you'll probably not get a perfect yield or lose some in the filtering/drying, but still have enough for a few caps. Destroy what you don't use right away though, as AP sublimates, but I think that was mentioned earlier.

jjgoh - 31-12-2013 at 17:46

Wait wait. . Let me ask something first. What if during the process, something wrong with my hmtd and liquid or what if the temperature rise quickly, should I consider discard it or continue with ice bath? How to actually discard explosive?? Do we must have to burn it as discard?
I'm ordering my lab glass ware.

roXefeller - 31-12-2013 at 18:04

Quote: Originally posted by jjgoh  
Wait wait. . Let me ask something first. What if during the process, something wrong with my hmtd and liquid or what if the temperature rise quickly, should I consider discard it or continue with ice bath?


By this point you should be able to answer this yourself, by studying your notes on the process. If they are insufficient then keep searching and reading until they are sufficient for a trial batch. That is also the point of these trials, to gain a first hand knowledge of the process.

You should also search for disposal of used reagents. That is a common question.

Graphite - 31-12-2013 at 18:46

Quote: Originally posted by caterpillar  
Quote: Originally posted by Graphite  
I don't suggest HMTD or TATP or other compounds like this ,for they're very dangerous. As HMTD.under the Ipact of 0.6N.M can explore.(TATP 0.2-0.3N.m)
you can try safer primary explosives ,such as NHN ( Ni(N2H4)3(NO3)2 ).


You should try them yourself before saying that. Make 0.1 gr and try to initiate. Hammer test, friction and so on. It seems to me, that many people take on faith things, which must be tested (scientific approach versus believer's one). Such discussion repeats same arguments many times. Well, there is another complex salt- Cu[NH3]4*[ClO3]2. Preparation looks rather simple, raw material accessible. No hydrazine.


in fact,i had initiated HMTD for more than 20 or 30 times, 500g hammer a adolt can easily initiate it ,friction:2.5kg 90° 100% fired , i think its enough for me to say that ,and,the complex salt- Cu[NH3]4*[ClO3]2 ,you will find its useless. i doubt the sensitivity may be a little high. you can refer to the GTJ theory,and a document named <handbook of explosives>

caterpillar - 1-1-2014 at 03:43

Quote: Originally posted by jjgoh  
Wait wait. . Let me ask something first. What if during the process, something wrong with my hmtd and liquid or what if the temperature rise quickly, should I consider discard it or continue with ice bath? How to actually discard explosive?? Do we must have to burn it as discard?
I'm ordering my lab glass ware.


I made HMTD (tried, more precisely) only once. According one famous russian book (http://pirochem.net/index.php?id1=3&category=chemvvisost...), I kept temperature below 20 Celsius. Temperature slowly went up, when it reached 20, I put reaction vessel under running water. Temperature quickly dropped down to 15, I was waiting again. After two- three hours I had an impression, that temperature stopped to grow. I leaved aforementioned vessel and went away from my home. Later, when I went back, I was informed by my sis, that that vessel started to boil and liquid in it transformed into something like gel. Since that time, I made TATP only. Clean routine, no unpleasant surprises. Few drops of HCl, and all of what I had to was to collect show white precipitate next day. Acid will evaporate, even if TATP is not washed well. I got a runaway reaction during preparation of TNP and NG. The last one was really unpleasant- only a thin door separated me from boiling mixture. I was waiting for explosion, but it did not occur. The main rule is to have in a hand-reach large volume of water with crushed ice (or show) and baking soda (to say nothing about protective goggles and gloves. If temperature goes out of control, immediately pour reaction mixture into water with ice (broke reaction vessel, if it is necessary- for example, if viscous mess did not want to leave this vessel quickly enough).

Dany - 1-1-2014 at 04:02

I was a fan of you caterpillar, but after reading your last post i'm completely disappointed...Are you recruiting your sister to watch your explosive formed while you're doing something else outside?...i didn't expect this from a Russian man

Dany.

[Edited on 1-1-2014 by Dany]

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 1-1-2014 at 05:14

Well, her sister could have a PhD in energetics, expect anything from Russians ;)

As for the NHN suggestion above, NHN have a low impact sensitivity, however extreme electric sensitivity. So sensitive that your neuron's signals have a chance of igniting/detonating it. I with my friend made NHN before, and around 0.1 gram deflagrated and then detonated on a metal spoon while my hand caught static electricity with the spoon(I was holding on the other side of the spoon so Im perfectly fine). You really want to use paper to handle NHN. Its very easy to make and is safe when you just make less than a gram and store wet. It is sensitive to flame.

caterpillar - 1-1-2014 at 07:49

Quote: Originally posted by Dany  
I was a fan of you caterpillar, but after reading your last post i'm completely disappointed...Are you recruiting your sister to watch your explosive formed while you're doing something else outside?...i didn't expect this from a Russian man

Dany.

[Edited on 1-1-2014 by Dany]


Yeah, it was my fault, but I was sure that all was over!!! Temperature was at nearly constant for half an hour. Small white crystals arose in liquid. And I did not tell her about my experiment. She heard noise, when liquid started to boil.

caterpillar - 1-1-2014 at 07:51

Quote: Originally posted by Dany  
I was a fan of you caterpillar, but after reading your last post i'm completely disappointed...Are you recruiting your sister to watch your explosive formed while you're doing something else outside?...i didn't expect this from a Russian man

Dany.

[Edited on 1-1-2014 by Dany]


Yeah, it was my fault, but I was sure that all was over!!! Temperature was at nearly constant for half an hour. Small white crystals arose in liquid. And I did not tell her about my experiment. She heard noise, when liquid started to boil.

papaya - 1-1-2014 at 15:25

Quote: Originally posted by DubaiAmateurRocketry  

As for the NHN suggestion above, NHN have a low impact sensitivity, however extreme electric sensitivity. So sensitive that your neuron's signals have a chance of igniting/detonating it. I with my friend made NHN before, and around 0.1 gram deflagrated and then detonated on a metal spoon while my hand caught static electricity with the spoon(I was holding on the other side of the spoon so Im perfectly fine).

I'm sorry, but this is a complete nonsense - NHN is one of the safest primaries, it never will detonate in open, and to get it to detonate you need hard metal confinement and more than a gram quantity, loaded at some specific density... less quantities in a weak casing usually make a load whistling sound or there's a bang, but no damage.

[Edited on 1-1-2014 by papaya]

Turner - 1-1-2014 at 21:03

SADS is one of the safest primaries I have found. I can't get it to detonate with hammer or hammer friction test, as far as I can tell it has the approximate impact sensitivity of ETN. Store under ethanol in dark place and will last a very long time, I still have 5-7g.

However, it is HIGHLY heat sensitive, which is what you want w/ primary anyways, but it will detonate in small amounts exposed to flame with no confinement.


markx - 2-1-2014 at 00:07

Quote: Originally posted by Turner  
SADS is one of the safest primaries I have found. I can't get it to detonate with hammer or hammer friction test, as far as I can tell it has the approximate impact sensitivity of ETN. Store under ethanol in dark place and will last a very long time, I still have 5-7g.

However, it is HIGHLY heat sensitive, which is what you want w/ primary anyways, but it will detonate in small amounts exposed to flame with no confinement.



Be cautious with SADS, it does have the virtues of easy preparation, excellent flame sensitivity and quite good initiating properties. Although it also has it's vices....extreme sensitivity towards static electricity and properties tend to vary with synthesis conditions (pH, temperature, acetylene purity). To get consistent quality from batch to batch you need to control the conditions very tightly.

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 2-1-2014 at 08:00

Quote: Originally posted by papaya  

I'm sorry, but this is a complete nonsense - NHN is one of the safest primaries, it never will detonate in open, and to get it to detonate you need hard metal confinement and more than a gram quantity, loaded at some specific density... less quantities in a weak casing usually make a load whistling sound or there's a bang, but no damage.

[Edited on 1-1-2014 by papaya]


No, Ive made it and I know. Maybe I exagerated on the part of detonation, but it did deflagrate very fast. NHN is extremely sensitive toward electricstatic and friction. You can search any paper that will say that. Its friction sensitivity is only 12% of Lead azide !! (thats crazy) but its impact sensitivity is twice lower. Stated on Propellants, Explosives, Pyrotechnics 22, 3 17-320 (1997)


[Edited on 2-1-2014 by DubaiAmateurRocketry]

Ral123 - 2-1-2014 at 08:10

Then why does the industry cope with lead azide's horrible toxicity, medium velocity and energy and flame sensitivity that causes a lot of complications? NHN eliminates the last problem and packs a lot more punch right?

Hennig Brand - 2-1-2014 at 08:24

Anything I have read indicated that NHN wasn't nearly as efficient an initiator as LA. Many people look at some of the numbers and conclude that lead styphnate or lead picrate, for instance, would make great HE initiators, when in practise they definitely don't. LA is a great initiator in most respects, probably the most widely used and successful primary ever. I still find NHN interesting though, especially since it is advertised as being a very safe primary.

Ral123 - 2-1-2014 at 14:52

"very safe primary" I hold a firm believe that the safety is in your head.
I'm pretty sure LA won't be a very good primary at all, if it's not in contact with the secondary. If there would be some separation between the primary and let's say RDX base charge. Then you need good explosive properties, rather then initiating properties. And LA doesn't cope well with the decomposition products of storage of most base charge materials.
In other words, if it's not a compound cap, why would the azide shine?

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