Sciencemadness Discussion Board

hydrogen peroxide

sergius - 15-11-2004 at 09:36

why is hydrogen peroxide is toxic to bacteria and yeasts?

Ideally it is decomposed by enzymes like catalase to oxygen.

The oxygen should be useful for respiration of bacteria/yeasts.

But why bugs perish when exposed to even minute concentration of hydrogen peroxide?

can any one explain?

Sergius

tom haggen - 15-11-2004 at 17:19

Ok lets say hypotheticlaly your eyeball is a living organism for example. Use some 30% hydrogen peroxide for eye drops and see if your having a bad day. Now imagine your eye is a micro organism. Less concentrated H2O2 is going to have the same effect because it takes less moles of H2O2 to do the same damage.

PLEASE DO NOT USE H202 AS EYE DROPS!!!

Or do if it will prevent you from being able to see a computer screen and ask stupid questions.

In my defense, I wouldn't have flamed this idiot so much if he could correctly spell the word "catalyses".


[Edited on 16-11-2004 by tom haggen]

The_Davster - 15-11-2004 at 17:26

Tom, he was not even trying to spell catalyst. Catalase is a natural enzyme in all animals(is it in plants too?) that decomposes the H2O2 produced during cellular processes to hydrogen and water.

tom haggen - 15-11-2004 at 17:28

ok well I guess i don't have a good excuse. Ok well hydrogen peroxide is corrosive to living organisms. Sorry I don't have an equation for this reaction.

BromicAcid - 15-11-2004 at 17:39

Not only will it randomly oxidize things that a certain bacterium might need to live, but there are many nasty anaerobic bacteria that the oxygen formation will wipe out.

chemoleo - 15-11-2004 at 17:54

Tom, I don't quite see why your 'flaming' is warranted, particularly that you don't know what catalase is ... might be good to check your textbook before your next flaming attempt :o

Anyway.......:D
H2O2 is definitely not useful as such to any organism, as it produces much harm onto the way to the mitochondria, where the O2- ion is produced, and even more harm once it arrives. The O2- is indeed broken down by various enzymes, and its energy is employed by the electron transport chain. O2-, however, also contributes to much radical damage - which is in part why we age with time, and why it is often said that low calorie food is good for you (your mitochondria are less active, and thus produce less O2-/OH.).
It is of course more harmful to small organisms as it rapidly is able to diffuse into the whole cell/organism, thereby killing it (i.e. overwhelming the mitochondria, which thereby die of oxidative damage).
H2O2 should be, per unit bodymass, equally toxic to most organisms - as its detrimental effects are the same in any organism. Of course various effects come into it, i.e. some may be better at absorbing H2O2, and thus die faster, or have greater damage - while others have a better ability to break down peroxides.

If you drink H2O2, it shouldnt be doing THAT much damage as I should think it is broken down by oxidising food stuff in the stomach. Not that I'd try it. However, you may remember that guy who got MEKP onto his trousers... and had massive headaches and other symptoms afterwards. That is definitely very dangerous as this peroxide is (due to its hydrophilic nature) able to diffuse accross fatty acid membrane layers, i.e. straight into mitochondria/nuclei, and achieve the damage there much more rapidly.

Sergious, any biochem textbook explains where the superoxide radical/ion is, and what it does, it maybe best if you have a look there, for furhter details.

tom haggen - 15-11-2004 at 18:47

Alright I take it back.:P

Sorry midterms are making me grumpy.

[Edited on 16-11-2004 by tom haggen]

HNO3 - 16-11-2004 at 05:44

Aren't yeast anaerobic? that is, they can't survive with much O2 in their envirovment.

Esplosivo - 16-11-2004 at 06:30

Quote:
Originally posted by HNO3
Aren't yeast anaerobic? that is, they can't survive with much O2 in their envirovment.


There are two types of anaerobes, the obligate ones which cannot survive in the presence of oxygen, and the facultative anaerobes which can survive through a range of oxygen concentration ranging from common air conc. to no oxygen at all. Yeast is a facultative anaerobe and therefore can survive in the presence of oxygen, carrying out aerobic respiration and in its absence carrying out anaerobic respiration - producing ethanol as a byproduct. This latter property is used in the production of alcoholic beverages.

chemoleo - 16-11-2004 at 06:46

Now, now, whats this about? The point being?
If yeast were solely anaerobic, it wouldnt NEED oxygen to live, and the presence of oxygen might be detrimental to survival.
Anyway...yeast can both live with or without oxygen.
In the case of brewing it lives anaerobically, producing ethanol (or lactate). In the presence of oxygen it'd ferment this on to CO2, and acetic acid I guess. Regardless, the superoxide radical O2-. is present in both - as part of the normal electron transport chain in the mitochondria. The O2-. is normally converted by superoxide dismutase (an enzyme) to H2O2, which is less damaging, which in turn is then disproportionated to H2O and O2 by catalase. You can see that if the catalase/superoxide dismutase are overwhelmed, it very rapidly can kill the electron transport chain, and thereby the energy supply of the cell (apart from mutagenic effects etc).
So, aerobic/anaerobic - no matter, H2O2 is bad for either.

sergius - 16-11-2004 at 11:25

Interestingly when I searched in the Google, I got several links which say that hydrogen peroxide can be a source of oxygen in mould cultivations!!

A few of them are given below.

http://www.mycomasters.com/Advantages-FAQs.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=Text&D...

http://members.aol.com/PeroxyMan/

What I sincerely believe is that hydrogen peroxide is converted to highly toxic reactive oxygen species such as hydroxyl free radical by transition metal ion mediated catalysis.

But the enzyme catalase secreted by the molds into the growing medium may decompse the hydrogen peroxide to molecular oxygen and water. The molecular oxygen may be useful for the respiration of pelletized molds.

If you put some amount of hydrogen peroxide in a solution containing catalase you can see bubbles of oxygen coming out. You can even measure the amount of oxygen produced when some living yeast is present in that solution. There are so many interesting experiments involving oxygen generation through catalase mediated catalysis of hydrogen peroxide breakdown.

Even in waste water treatment plants hydrogen peroxide is used to incerase the oxygen concentration so that harmful anaerobic microoragnisms are killed.

Sergius

sergius - 16-11-2004 at 12:01

hi there,

some more links on oxygen supply and hydrogen peroxide

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&a...

http://www.h2o2.com/intro/overview.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&a...

From these can we make an assumption that hydrogen peroxide can be a source of oxygen other organisms also if they are sufficiently armed with the enzyme catalase ( by external addition or engineering the organism to make more catalase in side the cells and/or by secreting it out)?

Sergius

Q

Wolfram - 17-11-2004 at 08:25

As I see It H2O2 should be cancerogenic and very dangerous but it isn´t known to be very dangerous, why?

chemoleo - 17-11-2004 at 16:19

Sergius, good links.
It's interesting that it is used for mushroom growing (now that must be of use to some mushroom growers here), and it's also interesting to see that it is used as a sterilising medium - meaning that nothing else can grow! Seems the mycelium is producing plenty of catalase.

Do remember though, H2O2 is used as a disinfectant, again emphasising its toxicity to microbial organisms.
Not just that, it is clearly toxic to humans too.
Check this for instance:
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/MHMI/mmg174.html
H2O2 vapours cause significant morbidity!!!
If ingested, solutions of hydrogen peroxide up to concentrations of 9% are generally nontoxic (nonfatal); however, even a 3% solution is mildly irritating to mucosal tissue and may cause vomiting and diarrhea. Ingestion of industrial-strength solutions (≥10%) causes systemic toxicity and has been associated with fatalities.
HOwever, it is not classified as a carcinogen.

Anyway... i would once again like to point out the increased toxicity of organic peroxides that are lipid soluble. The mechanism of action is the same (radical formation, oxidation of cysteines, metal ions, lipid peroxidation etc), - see http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/pel88/1338-23.html
Ingestion is often fatal. It is, however, not a carcinogen, either (which is good to hear).


To sum this up - H2O2 is toxic for ANY organism, if administered in high enough concentrations/amounts. There is a certain level of tolerance due to restricted uptake rates, but beyond it becomes quickly lethal. For instance, injected H2O2 is tolerable up to the point where the O2 generated (via catalase and others) is no more soluble in the system fluids. Then this becomes lethal, death by embolie.

sergius - 18-11-2004 at 00:55

This link may of interest to those anxious about cancer and ageing.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/11/17/health.apples.reut/inde...


Sergius

Alagebrium - 18-11-2004 at 20:12

Some micro-organisms, like some Lactobacilli produce H2O2. It suppresses the growth of several pathogens, so H2O2 isn't all bad after all.

Blind Angel - 18-11-2004 at 20:22

I remember reading that a bug is able to produce a poison constitued of 28% H2O2 as a protection weapon (www.lachimie.com if you can read/understand french, there are a lot of info on H2O2)

BromicAcid - 18-11-2004 at 21:06

The Bombardier Beetle has a pair of glands that produce large quantities of hydrogen peroxide and hydroquinone. When threatened it allows the two to react producing quinone and water and lots of heat, it sprays out the mixture which is boiling or close to it, making an audible sound as it does so, it contains enough of each chemical to do this 20 - 30 times in quick succession. In addition to any heat or residual peroxide or even the sound, the quinone produced deters other insects from getting up close and personal. From an entry in 'Chemistry' 6th edition by Raymond Chang.

Wolfram - 19-11-2004 at 03:08

When I read about this beatle I wonder why nature yet has not developed a creature with natural flamethrower like device. Very interessting would be to know how this beatle prevents the H2O2 from harming it self.

[Edited on 19-11-2004 by Wolfram]

Blind Angel - 19-11-2004 at 05:46

I already read somewhere that it would be possible, if the creature had two gland on the side of the mouth and a pouch containing small amount of white phosphorous and small lenght alkane or alcohol. The site was looking at the existence of dragon on a scientific way (not that they exist, but could they exist, with body mass and all)

sergius - 20-11-2004 at 02:25

Hello everyone,

The toxicity of hydrogen peroxide is absolutely dose dependent. The toxicity of hydrogen peroxide is mediated by frre radicals generated when there is excess of molecular oxygen present at a particular locality.

We all know that the solubility of oxygen is very poor and it amounts to 8 ppm at 25 deg C. This is more that sufficient to meet the oxygen requirement of microbes in the aqueous media.

The decomposition of hydrogen peroxide (mediated by catalase) occurs in liquid phase as follows

2H2O2 -------> 2H2O + O2

By liquid phase decomposition is meant that what ever molecular oxygen that is formed is in solution.

Stoichiometrically, when we decompose 1 mM hydrogen peroxide, it will give 0.5 mM of oxygen ie (16 ppm of oxygen twice that of equilibrium concentration at 25 deg C). Hence much lower concentrations can be safely used for oxygen supply. The catalase here will be playing the lead role minimising the risk of free radical generation by converting hydrogen peroxide into molecualr oxygen.

Depending on the sensitivity of the microorganism to hydrogen peroxide and oxygen the concentration can be optimized.

I hope this method can be very much useful in industrial biotechnological processes, where the cost for meeting the oxygen requirement is very very high.

An oxygen cylinder costs more than 100 times that of 500 ml 30% hydrogen peroxide. Hence this may be promising technology in industrial scale.

Sergius

unionised - 20-11-2004 at 14:44

"An oxygen cylinder costs more than 100 times that of 500 ml 30% hydrogen peroxide. Hence this may be promising technology in industrial scale."

Erm..., where are you getting those prices from?
The catalogue I have lists H2O2 at about £15 and I don't think a gas cylinder of oxygen costs £1500.

BTW, if I remember rightly, the white blood cells generate H2O2 to destroy invading bacteria.

sergius - 20-11-2004 at 21:56

Oops... sorry about the wrong price details. But the cost difference will be very significant at industrial scale of operation.

The concentration of commercially available hydrogen peroxide is 30% which works out to a molarity of ~ 9.7 M. The working concentration of hydrogen proxide will be between submillimolar to millimolar range. So the quantum of oxygen required will be effectively met with a single hydrogen peroxide container, for which one currently needs a few cylinders of pure oxygen in addition to continuous operation of high power consuming air compressors.

The toxicity of hydrogen peroxide is well documented one. The concentration employed for oxygen supply strategy is much less than that of inhibitory/lethal concentration. hence toxiciyt may not be an issue of concern. The critical thing is to monitor and control the hydrogen peroxide concentration at desired levels below toxic concentrations.

Sergius

White Yeti - 29-7-2011 at 12:24

It's really quite simple, hydrogen peroxide is dangerous to living things because it is a strong oxidizing agent, just like fluorine and ozone. It destroys DNA.

brocklee - 1-9-2011 at 14:39

i believe that the specific ways it can damage DNA are through oxidizing bases of the nucleotide causing replication blocks and mutations (eg 8-oxo-guanosine and cytosine to uracil through the deamination) and conversion of dNTPs to rNTPs by oxidizing the 2'OH (which increases the probability of strand breaks).

Also as people mentioned oxidation of lipids and proteins causes loss of functional conformation. even "low" levels of H2O2 (from a bottle) can overwhelm the cells enzymatic capacity to convert it to water and oxygen. btw as far as i know everything that rely on aerobic respiration has minute concentrations of hydrogen peroxide as it is a product of oxidative phosphorylation.

as for that bombadier beetle, beats me :/

Chemstudent - 19-4-2012 at 20:36

Perhaps off topic, but I've for years gargled with H202 to keep my teeth nice and white, but most importantly to disinfect my mouth after vigorous brushing and flossing. It really helps knock out my sore throats as well when I'm ill. I of course gargle back but I don't drink it.

Also, I've read some interesting material regarding H202 being looked at as a viable chemotherapy drug. Of course though it will never be approved, it is much too effective, cheap, and less harmful than the current expensive poison currently available for the FDA to ever approve. It is an alternative therapy in use, but not actively prescribed to patients with cancer.

weiming1998 - 19-4-2012 at 21:17

Quote: Originally posted by Chemstudent  
Perhaps off topic, but I've for years gargled with H202 to keep my teeth nice and white, but most importantly to disinfect my mouth after vigorous brushing and flossing. It really helps knock out my sore throats as well when I'm ill. I of course gargle back but I don't drink it.

Also, I've read some interesting material regarding H202 being looked at as a viable chemotherapy drug. Of course though it will never be approved, it is much too effective, cheap, and less harmful than the current expensive poison currently available for the FDA to ever approve. It is an alternative therapy in use, but not actively prescribed to patients with cancer.



Seriously? How did an H2O2 therapy supporter get on a chemistry forum?

Anyway, to respond to your claims:
1, H2O2 does act as a disinfectant and kills bacteria. However, it cannot kill viruses effectively because the virus replicate by injects its DNA/RNA sequence into cells, so the H2O2 cannot cure a virus infestation without killing the host cells of the viruses first, and if it is at such a high concentration, it would destroy normal cells as well. That's why antibiotics doesn't work on viruses.

2, H2O2 is DEFINITELY not a viable chemotherapy drug. It cannot target a certain cancerous organ, for example, as its half-life in the body is short, because the enzymes in blood will rapidly catalytically decompose the peroxide. Even if it doesn't get catalytically decomposed by the time it reaches the targeted organ, the concentration would be too small to do anything at all. Cancer cells are not oxygen-fearing monsters, they are simply mutated versions of normal cells, and not much different, so it is extremely difficult to target cancer cells without destroying normal cells. That is why chemotherapy does so much damage in the first place! So concentrations of H2O2 large enough to destroy cancer cells will destroy normal cells!

3, Alternative therapies use two tactics, the demonization of conventional medicine and large amount of testimonials. So what you might be reading about "miracle H2O2 cure" might simply be just a collection of testimonials (which, mind you, is an extremely unreliable form of evidence), speculations, and ad hominem attacks to the "Big Pharma".

Chemstudent - 19-4-2012 at 22:24

Quote: Originally posted by weiming1998  


Seriously? How did an H2O2 therapy supporter get on a chemistry forum?

Anyway, to respond to your claims:
1, H2O2 does act as a disinfectant and kills bacteria. However, it cannot kill viruses effectively because the virus replicate by injects its DNA/RNA sequence into cells, so the H2O2 cannot cure a virus infestation without killing the host cells of the viruses first, and if it is at such a high concentration, it would destroy normal cells as well. That's why antibiotics doesn't work on viruses.



2, H2O2 is DEFINITELY not a viable chemotherapy drug. It cannot target a certain cancerous organ, for example, as its half-life in the body is short, because the enzymes in blood will rapidly catalytically decompose the peroxide. Even if it doesn't get catalytically decomposed by the time it reaches the targeted organ, the concentration would be too small to do anything at all. Cancer cells are not oxygen-fearing monsters, they are simply mutated versions of normal cells, and not much different, so it is extremely difficult to target cancer cells without destroying normal cells. That is why chemotherapy does so much damage in the first place! So concentrations of H2O2 large enough to destroy cancer cells will destroy normal cells!

3, Alternative therapies use two tactics, the demonization of conventional medicine and large amount of testimonials. So what you might be reading about "miracle H2O2 cure" might simply be just a collection of testimonials (which, mind you, is an extremely unreliable form of evidence), speculations, and ad hominem attacks to the "Big Pharma".


To 1.) - The H202 does a great job of clearing the nasty white bacteria growing on the tongue when I'm ill and just as a whole alleviates most sore throats I get.

To 2.) - From the literature I've read, and yes some testimonials including a family member H202 does appear, at least to me viable as an IV administered chemo drug, I say this because its function is very much similar to other chemo drugs while its breakdown products are quite harmless. And it's damned cheap considering the alternative will cost a bundle. I still believe its viable

To 3.) - As much as I hate being lumped into the same group as green living vegans and alternative nutrition junkies, I do openly admit that i have a permanent grudge against the medical establishment. I cannot believe in a system that is heavily involved with drug lobbying. Hell, the rules of business apply here just like anywhere else.

Hope I'm targeted at "one of those guys" on this forum though. :/ Don't think me a hippy please! :p

weiming1998 - 19-4-2012 at 22:56

Quote: Originally posted by Chemstudent  
Quote: Originally posted by weiming1998  


Seriously? How did an H2O2 therapy supporter get on a chemistry forum?

Anyway, to respond to your claims:
1, H2O2 does act as a disinfectant and kills bacteria. However, it cannot kill viruses effectively because the virus replicate by injects its DNA/RNA sequence into cells, so the H2O2 cannot cure a virus infestation without killing the host cells of the viruses first, and if it is at such a high concentration, it would destroy normal cells as well. That's why antibiotics doesn't work on viruses.



2, H2O2 is DEFINITELY not a viable chemotherapy drug. It cannot target a certain cancerous organ, for example, as its half-life in the body is short, because the enzymes in blood will rapidly catalytically decompose the peroxide. Even if it doesn't get catalytically decomposed by the time it reaches the targeted organ, the concentration would be too small to do anything at all. Cancer cells are not oxygen-fearing monsters, they are simply mutated versions of normal cells, and not much different, so it is extremely difficult to target cancer cells without destroying normal cells. That is why chemotherapy does so much damage in the first place! So concentrations of H2O2 large enough to destroy cancer cells will destroy normal cells!

3, Alternative therapies use two tactics, the demonization of conventional medicine and large amount of testimonials. So what you might be reading about "miracle H2O2 cure" might simply be just a collection of testimonials (which, mind you, is an extremely unreliable form of evidence), speculations, and ad hominem attacks to the "Big Pharma".


To 1.) - The H202 does a great job of clearing the nasty white bacteria growing on the tongue when I'm ill and just as a whole alleviates most sore throats I get.

To 2.) - From the literature I've read, and yes some testimonials including a family member H202 does appear, at least to me viable as an IV administered chemo drug, I say this because its function is very much similar to other chemo drugs while its breakdown products are quite harmless. And it's damned cheap considering the alternative will cost a bundle. I still believe its viable

To 3.) - As much as I hate being lumped into the same group as green living vegans and alternative nutrition junkies, I do openly admit that i have a permanent grudge against the medical establishment. I cannot believe in a system that is heavily involved with drug lobbying. Hell, the rules of business apply here just like anywhere else.

Hope I'm targeted at "one of those guys" on this forum though. :/ Don't think me a hippy please! :p


According to Wikipedia (which may or may not be reliable), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemotherapy
Chemotherapy drugs target the replications of cells, so that even though normal cells will not be able to replicate, cancer cells, which usually replicate and die faster, will die out faster than normal cells. New anticancer medicine targets mutated proteins directly, according to the article.

H2O2 does none of these things. Its damage to cells is oxidative damage, which damages all cells equally instead of targeting the faster-dividing cancer cells like in conventional chemotherapy. Intravenous injection of H2O2 is dangerous to the extreme, as it would destroy cells at the injection site and, if in a large dose, be unable to be all catalytically decomposed, which would cause the destruction of blood and body cells as it disperses around the body. Small doses will be completely decomposed by the catalysts in blood, and thus be useless in destroying cancer cells.

No matter how convincing the testimonials might be, or that you distrust conventional medicine, solid evidence is still required, in the form of numerous well-documented double-blind trials, in order to prove that H2O2 works in treating cancer. This is the problem with almost all the alternative therapies out there.

Chemstudent - 20-4-2012 at 10:08

I see your point, and it does make sense now why H202 would not be ideal although I stated otherwise. Indeed it would wreak havoc on the site of injection and it is not known just how long in the blood it would be active as H202 before being reduced itself. However! It may prove useful for some situations. There might be situations where it could be used as a site specific treatment, cause the damage only where needed then dissipates as oxygen and water? But before I'd ever use H202 and chemo in the same sentence I think I'll have to spend some time looking at the literature.

But on the other hand again, it sounds counter intuitive to introduce an oxidation challenge to the body, when all the evidence does point to free radical damage contributing to rogue cancer cell development.

Edit: I spent much time now looking for something.... anything credible. Pubmed, CAS website, etc etc... and I couldn't find anything outside of Youtube or alternative medicine blogs on efficacy of H202 in treating cancer. Some in vitro studies yes I found and some rat studies but nothing compelling no matter how deeply I read into it. Team H202 only made the case for peroxide seem more silly, they would make claims that H202 is simply water and an oxygen... and we breath oxygen so it must be good. And they all miss that O2 (breathable air) and ground state O^2- are way different. But regardless, claims that it "oxygenates" the blood and makes an environment no suitable for cancer are said.

Now I'm scratching my head at this. How does a simple O2- free radical induce apoptosis in a cancer cell?.... I feel embarrassed for having brought this all up now :/

Still though, I don't trust most doctors, its not just that I formed a negative opinion from bad experience or from exposure to fear mongers, just I find I know better with regards to my body, nutrition, when I'm not well, etc. I read my own blood work and make my own conjectures. A doctor for me is just a type of a surrogate, someone who I can ask how would a medication affect me, etc. Can then tell me based on having given the same drug to so many people over the years and seen blood results for so many people can give me a real world estimate as to a drugs or treatments efficacy. Save for that why would I need a doctor? I have a tenacity for learning whatever it is that concerns me, and I fixate upon it for hours or more until I have absurdness, and I look at many angles not just one route or another like the orthodox.

[Edited on 20-4-2012 by Chemstudent]

[Edited on 20-4-2012 by Chemstudent]

weiming1998 - 20-4-2012 at 16:35

Quote: Originally posted by Chemstudent  
I see your point, and it does make sense now why H202 would not be ideal although I stated otherwise. Indeed it would wreak havoc on the site of injection and it is not known just how long in the blood it would be active as H202 before being reduced itself. However! It may prove useful for some situations. There might be situations where it could be used as a site specific treatment, cause the damage only where needed then dissipates as oxygen and water? But before I'd ever use H202 and chemo in the same sentence I think I'll have to spend some time looking at the literature.

But on the other hand again, it sounds counter intuitive to introduce an oxidation challenge to the body, when all the evidence does point to free radical damage contributing to rogue cancer cell development.

Edit: I spent much time now looking for something.... anything credible. Pubmed, CAS website, etc etc... and I couldn't find anything outside of Youtube or alternative medicine blogs on efficacy of H202 in treating cancer. Some in vitro studies yes I found and some rat studies but nothing compelling no matter how deeply I read into it. Team H202 only made the case for peroxide seem more silly, they would make claims that H202 is simply water and an oxygen... and we breath oxygen so it must be good. And they all miss that O2 (breathable air) and ground state O^2- are way different. But regardless, claims that it "oxygenates" the blood and makes an environment no suitable for cancer are said.

Now I'm scratching my head at this. How does a simple O2- free radical induce apoptosis in a cancer cell?.... I feel embarrassed for having brought this all up now :/

Still though, I don't trust most doctors, its not just that I formed a negative opinion from bad experience or from exposure to fear mongers, just I find I know better with regards to my body, nutrition, when I'm not well, etc. I read my own blood work and make my own conjectures. A doctor for me is just a type of a surrogate, someone who I can ask how would a medication affect me, etc. Can then tell me based on having given the same drug to so many people over the years and seen blood results for so many people can give me a real world estimate as to a drugs or treatments efficacy. Save for that why would I need a doctor? I have a tenacity for learning whatever it is that concerns me, and I fixate upon it for hours or more until I have absurdness, and I look at many angles not just one route or another like the orthodox.

[Edited on 20-4-2012 by Chemstudent]

[Edited on 20-4-2012 by Chemstudent]


The problem with those alternative treatments is that they spin off a huge tale about something curing cancer with literally no studies proving that it does. There's only videos on Youtube, testimonials, blogs and more testimonials. It only appeals to emotion, not to evidence.

H2O2, is very different from O2, because of the O-O bond, as you said. The free radicals it breaks into are more oxidizing. Oxidation damage of DNA are cause of cancer, so technically, intravenous injections of H2O2 might increase the possibility of cancer. The claims about oxygenating the blood is even more absurd, as blood is already saturated with oxygen every time we breathe. The claim that cancer cells cannot survive in an aerobic environment is definitely false as it is just a mutated version of normal cells. So a concentration of H2O2 large enough to destroy cancer will destroy normal cells, possibly with disastrous consequences, as blood filled with H2O2 reaches the heart and lungs.

plastics - 20-4-2012 at 19:47

Quote: Originally posted by Chemstudent  
... Save for that why would I need a doctor? ...


When you need a colorectal surgeon to cut out your bowel cancer

When you need an obstetrician to deliver your baby when its head is too big to fit through your pelvis

A trauma surgeon to quench the haemorrhage when you crash your car

A plastic surgeon to replant your fingers cut off by your circular saw

A potato surgeon to amputate that huge chip on your shoulder

Not all doctors are pill pushing opportunists funded by the drug industry

Chemstudent - 20-4-2012 at 22:31

Quote: Originally posted by plastics  
Quote: Originally posted by Chemstudent  
... Save for that why would I need a doctor? ...


When you need a colorectal surgeon to cut out your bowel cancer

When you need an obstetrician to deliver your baby when its head is too big to fit through your pelvis

A trauma surgeon to quench the haemorrhage when you crash your car

A plastic surgeon to replant your fingers cut off by your circular saw

A potato surgeon to amputate that huge chip on your shoulder

Not all doctors are pill pushing opportunists funded by the drug industry


Yes.. I do understand what you are saying. And I started reading potato surgeon and said what the heck? Then I got it :p real cute

Living in south florida though, seems there is no short of pill pushing opportunists. A new pain clinic opens up just as another shuts down on a weekly basis here. Sigh... yeah, I think I do need that potato surgeon :/

And H202 looks retarded now that i analyzed it, and the above post is right on. Claims that cancer cannot live in an aerobic environment are silly, but there is a body of evidence showing elevated blood sugar or consumption of casein protein can fuel replication of cancer cells.

weiming1998 - 21-4-2012 at 00:19

Quote: Originally posted by Chemstudent  
Quote: Originally posted by plastics  
Quote: Originally posted by Chemstudent  
... Save for that why would I need a doctor? ...


When you need a colorectal surgeon to cut out your bowel cancer

When you need an obstetrician to deliver your baby when its head is too big to fit through your pelvis

A trauma surgeon to quench the haemorrhage when you crash your car

A plastic surgeon to replant your fingers cut off by your circular saw

A potato surgeon to amputate that huge chip on your shoulder

Not all doctors are pill pushing opportunists funded by the drug industry


Yes.. I do understand what you are saying. And I started reading potato surgeon and said what the heck? Then I got it :p real cute

Living in south florida though, seems there is no short of pill pushing opportunists. A new pain clinic opens up just as another shuts down on a weekly basis here. Sigh... yeah, I think I do need that potato surgeon :/

And H202 looks retarded now that i analyzed it, and the above post is right on. Claims that cancer cannot live in an aerobic environment are silly, but there is a body of evidence showing elevated blood sugar or consumption of casein protein can fuel replication of cancer cells.


Really? Right where I am, in Western Australia, there seems to be an endless number of proponents for alternative medicine treatment. All health shops and even proper pharmacies have "alt-garbage" sitting on the shelves (colloidal silver, chlorophyll, bio?active magnesium, liquid oxygen(really just salt water), and even homeopathy remedies).

The number of chiropractic and physiotherapy clinics alone is probably more than the number of proper pharmacies! Then there's also the acupuncture clinics, health massage shops, reflexology clinics, new age crystal healing shops and lots more. There's also the need to put "chemical free" on almost everything.

Nicodem - 21-4-2012 at 01:21

Quote: Originally posted by Chemstudent  
And H202 looks retarded now that i analyzed it

Indeed "H202" indeed looks quite retarded, because the symbol for oxygen is the letter "O" and not the number "0".
My annoying reply is less off topic than it might appear at the first glance. An analysis would show that the topic is very much connected to the same type of ignorance that leads to the suggestion on using H2O2 as a chemotherapy drug.
Chemstudent, don't take this personally. I can offer you a consolation. You are not the only one believing "0" means oxygen. So did the the member who replied to the original poster:
Quote: Originally posted by tom haggen  
In my defense, I wouldn't have flamed this idiot so much if he could correctly spell the word "catalyses".

PS:
Quote: Originally posted by The_Davster  
Tom, he was not even trying to spell catalyst. Catalase is a natural enzyme in all animals(is it in plants too?) that decomposes the H2O2 produced during cellular processes to hydrogen and water.

Chemstudent - 21-4-2012 at 14:16

Hey, cut me some slack here o and 0 are right next to each other on the key board!! ;)

AJKOER - 26-4-2012 at 19:16

A possibly pertinent observation is that H2O2 and Chlorine based disinfectants (basically relying on HOCl) are both not as powerful as H2O2/Acetic acid, which forms Peracetic acid, also known as peroxyacetic acid, or PAA. It is broadly effective against microorganisms and is not deactivated by catalase and peroxidase, which are the enzymes that break down hydrogen peroxide. Per Wkipedia: "Peracetic acid kills microorganisms by oxidation and subsequent disruption of their cell membrane, via the hydroxyl radical (HO·).....It can damage virtually all types of macromolecules associated with a microorganism: carbohydrates, nucleic acids (mutations), lipids (lipid peroxidation), and amino acids (e.g., conversion of Phe to m-Tyr and o-Tyr). This ultimately leads to cell lysis and true microbial death."

Interestingly, PAA can control even Legionella bacteria while H2O2 and HOCl cannot. The reason being it's strong oxidizing ability and its insensitivity to otherwise deactivating enzymes.
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Also, do not discount colloidal silver, which predated antibiotics as an effective treatment to kill germs and viruses. And, unlike its reputed antibiotic replacements, it does not breed super bugs. Interestingly, it is currently being looked at to address things like HIV no less.
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On the comment that "Not all doctors are pill pushing opportunists funded by the drug industry", I must confess that I fired my traditional doctor who actually had a prescription pad next to his pill ads and vacation rewards program from a drug company.


[Edited on 27-4-2012 by AJKOER]