Sciencemadness Discussion Board

tatp plastic form?

MCtiaguinho - 4-2-2014 at 09:26

HI im new here (im from Portugal) and i want to ask if someone knows a form to make TATP plastic explosive.

And if a plastic form is more stable.


Thank you

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 4-2-2014 at 09:40

Of course binders could be added, however im afraid these formulations are too weak and too oxygen negative .

Turner - 4-2-2014 at 10:56

Your TATP will explode while you are trying to work in binder stupid if you ask me.

MCtiaguinho - 4-2-2014 at 11:33

binder o.O? you want to kill me of course xD

i find this in a video on youtube:

88% of TATP 11% of mineral Oil and 1% of Lecithin.

Could this work to improve stability and ill lost a lot of power?

Thank you

Peroksit - 4-2-2014 at 11:43

primary explosive and plasticizing it :D this is absurd and tatp is unstable you can't improve its stability like this because it is chemically unstable if you love your body parts and your life you should read about explosives and shouldn't make organic peroxides (I hope Ral123 doesn't see that :D)

[Edited on 4-2-2014 by Peroksit]

Zyklon-A - 4-2-2014 at 11:55

/Sarcasm / Hey, I know, why don't we all try plasticizing NI3, I think it will be much safer.;)/Sarcasm/


[Edited on 5-2-2014 by Zyklonb]

MCtiaguinho - 4-2-2014 at 12:37

i want to see plasticized NI3 ;D

i beleve i could do it to tatp.
any ideas?

Thank you

Praxichys - 4-2-2014 at 12:52

TATP is not good for plasticizing.

1. It is extremely sensitive.
2. It is extremely sensitive.
3. TATP has a low oxygen balance to begin with. Plasticizing will reduce power tremendously.
4. TATP is a relatively weak explosive. Plasticizing it will make this worse. It will not perform like military plastic explosive.
5. TATP is crystalline. The finished product will be gritty like wet sand, not a putty like you probably expect.
6. Crushing these crystals will probably result in a devistating explosion. Molding the final paste into a shape has a high probability of an explosion.
7. If you do manage to make it and shape it without losing your hands/eyes/life, sparks from a fuse will set it off prematurely unless it is covered.

If you want to plasticize something, make some nitro-esters like NG, ETN, or EGDN. Asking SciMad how to plasticize AP is like asking an electrician how to stick a fork in a toaster. The answer is: Just don't do it.

Zyklon-A - 4-2-2014 at 12:56

Praxichys is right, I don't think it is even possible, why not try something else?
Analogy is funny by the way.

[Edited on 5-2-2014 by Zyklonb]

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 4-2-2014 at 13:00

You can see this paper, they tried many mixtures and their sensitivity on TATP.

http://www.wydawnictwa.ipo.waw.pl/cejem/vol-10-2-2013/Matyas...

this for sensitivity

http://books.google.ae/books?id=wfJHAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA26&...

TATP's sensitivity is not extreme, but yes it is a primary and it have a very bad reputation for injuries of many amateurs.

franklyn - 4-2-2014 at 21:36


www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=452

TATP is solid , so admixing as for example Nitric Esters with Zeolite ( Diatomaceous Earth ) as in the case of Nobel Dynamite cannot be done.

100 cubic centimeters ( mililiters ) Chloroform dissolves more than 100 gms of TATP at room temperature. Chloroform itself is a good oxidizer for Aluminum.
This admixture is readily detonable but it is liquid. Gelling it might be done but that is experimental territory.

.

Fantasma4500 - 5-2-2014 at 08:38

http://puu.sh/6KWOO.JPG

comment i found on youtube, ofc i saved it

basically make 85 10 5 mix of AP, AN, and then carbon from powdered sugar you burnt off well

there is no tests on this, but he sounds quite confident about it, anyhow safety rule for AP --- KEEP IT SMALL
dont go over 10g i say, it will do well for at least 5 detonators

APAN 1:1 is said to be a primary by itself, i dont dare to up a picture of how destructive this could be towards a metalplate, but it sure has some power, simply packed in a papertube and fused, of what i know of
i dont recommend centering secondaries or HE's on what you can mix with AP.. AP is what you want to avoid

anyhow the classic ''plastic'' is with NC, APNC, AP putty, however it turns to a perfect solid which will detonate on contact with flame, im quite sure this is very shock sensitive and also very friction sensitive, even more than pure AP

tetra AP could be an idea for you, its said to be alot less sensitive and have greater power, its made with tin chloride isntead of HCl, im quite sure im right on this one

explosives really doesnt give two shits about how much care you took with safety, dont rush any energetics synthesis or take any chances with the finished product -- its just a compound, mess with it and it will show all of its glorious energy

Scientwisted - 7-2-2014 at 15:44

Franklyn, are you suggesting that he make a compound with TATP and AL? In solution or not I think that's a bad idea having a highly reactive metal with a peroxide, come on man!

I can certainly appreciate trying to plasticize TATP for curiosity sake and seeing if one can make it work. I would suggest reconsidering such a feat only for the fact that the probability of a negative outcome (ie. blowing your digits off) far out ways the probability of succeeding and having the product be reliable and applicable to other projects. I don't know if you have the materials and feel comfortable synthesizing other compounds but if you do, like the others said, I would put forth the extra effort so you don't have to mess about with organic peroxides. I use HMTD for most of my primaries but I always try to keep it pure and isolated from other materials. Peroxides are very unstable and unpredictable compunds, with that said no matter how inert your binder may seem I would not be willing to bet my finger that they will not react. Others have suggested nitro esters and I think that would be a great start. They are more stable and more powerful... Do what you want because you are going to do it anyway, but please don't try that with TATP.
Happy experimenting- Scientwisted

[Edited on 7-2-2014 by Scientwisted]

Turner - 7-2-2014 at 17:04

"Let's explore TATP plastique" is along the lines of

Let's see if we can get man to Mars using sugar and KNO3 as the rocket fuel

NeonPulse - 7-2-2014 at 17:21

it is simply not worth the risk... take a look around the net and see just how common accidents with this known finger killer really are. i urge you to reconsider what you are planning to do for your own sake... next time you use your hands to do anything, think of how easy it is. next think of how hard it would be to do without any fingers or with just small parts of them. life would not be so easy anymore...... as others have suggested here: try out nitric esters. they are very powerful and some can safely plasticized and the results can be very satisfying plus you will get to keep your hands too. safety should be number one.

Zyklon-A - 7-2-2014 at 17:34

I have seen some very powerful rockets using KNO3-sucrose. No way near mars of course, but don't underestimate the power of a KNO3-sucrose rocket.



[Edited on 8-2-2014 by Zyklonb]

Metacelsus - 7-2-2014 at 18:32

http://sugarshot.org/

There is actually a similar project underway :o!

franklyn - 7-2-2014 at 18:41

Quote: Originally posted by Scientwisted  
Franklyn, are you suggesting that he make a compound with TATP and AL?

I do not suggest anything not known to me personally. The question invokes
uncommon avenues for investigation. Investigation of unfamiliar combinations
of substances is one reason for Material Safety Data Sheets and references
such as Bretherick's Handbook of Reactive Chemical Hazards , and others.
As for example :
" equal portions of Acetone , Nitric acid, and 75% aqueous Acetic acid exploded
four hours after it was prepared and placed in a closed bottle."
Who would have thought ?
Dangerous situations arise unexpectedly and unanticipated. Often neglected
is what may result from an induction period of slow chemical reactions.

Actually CHCL3 + Al is already shock sensitive as any other high explosive.
As a solute , TATP is de-sensitised and would just accelerate detonation velocity.
TATP is safer in solution than solid. The action of Chloroform on Aluminum can on
standing promote some unspecified interaction with the TATP. What may result
overall is not indicated from contemplation.

.

Motherload - 7-2-2014 at 21:54

I do not believe a dissolved peroxide in CHCl3 ..... in contact with fine Al powder is such a good idea. It may cause other side reactions which may cause a "unprovoked" detonation.

It is a oxygen deficient explosive .... If you were to mix it with fuels to make a putty like substance with ... It will simply deflagrate with a big fire cloud.
One can never truly plasticize a coarse crystalline compound such as TATP

The sensitivity of TATP is not as much of a concern to me as it's unstability is which makes it unpredictable .... Especially with acidic residue.
Plasticizing is a means to reduce sensitivity ..... It does nothing for stability.
One could theoretically "wet" TATP with MEK peroxide .... If you really must go down that road. However ..... You are definitely asking for trouble.

Just because nothing has gone wrong yet doesn't mean it can't or won't go wrong.
I used to make TATP ... Lots of it without incident. But I stopped ... I saw the warnings and I still have 10 fingers.
There is no point to quitting smoking once you have been diagnosed with lung cancer.

ETN can be plasticized rather nicely

[Edited on 8-2-2014 by Motherload]

Turner - 8-2-2014 at 06:50

I have found ETN recrystalized into shavings plasticized the best. Meaning not a crumbly substance.

Peroksit - 11-2-2014 at 05:58

Quote: Originally posted by Turner  
Your TATP will explode while you are trying to work in binder stupid if you ask me.


Some people are very lucky, until when he will go like that. here is a video what a .....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z9wG9XbW2k

Fantasma4500 - 11-2-2014 at 07:50

AP smokebomb i recall could be made with xylene and AP
i .. smokebomb with ap, i dont get it, it was from a norwegian forum.. weird stuff, i wouldnt try it.. couldnt find the thread about it tho

also for AP and stuff mixed in KNO3 has been used for it
i recall the guy called it APPN or PNAP because Potassium Nitrate -- PN

holy FUCK THAT VIDEO
that guy is just BEGGING TO GET KILLED
he doesnt look like hes more than.. 12?!
i recall this guy who set off 1kg wet AP with a firecracker, when its wet it needs a decent amount of shock, chemical stability is ofcourse bad because of peroxide, although HMTD is worse
the test he showed at the end makes me more comfortable.. but hes only got one video??
it could easily have turned bad for him

Alexander.W - 4-4-2014 at 13:36

And why there are always so many peroxides-lovers?:mad:

Zyklon-A - 4-4-2014 at 13:43

Because they are easy to make and easy to detonate.

Mineral oil and AP

Infospunge - 5-1-2015 at 11:52

After all this discussion I decided to look at a link to a pdf that I believe was posted here on how wd40 and water both affected TATP's sensitivity at various percentages. Informative, but that made me look over at a tiny wad of TATP left from rinsing and neutralizing sitting on the filter paper that I was going to just set off in some tin foil on the stove to keep the dogs on their toes too, makes them earn their food and stay way back when begging too, and the outfield position gets the first treats at dinner.

Anyway I thought I would see how TATP reacts when introduced to mineral oil as the guy on the Youtube video had indicated. I expected it to just be a binder for it that would reduce the friction between the crystals, but it seems to melt it, altering the structure so completely that it either will extinguish the fuse, or never reach det pont at all even when confined! I must add that this probably holds out for only very small amounts of it, but I don't know since I didn't want to ruin the rest of what little I made to find out.

I put a pea size lump of he goo on some aluminum foil, folded it up and set it on top of the electric burner as I originally planned, for clearing out any dog-jams lodged in the kitchen area just prior to breakfast. It simply sputtered and smoked until it caught on fire and slowly burned away such as paraffin would. I couldn't believe it, having trouble detonating TATP? Not even a remote possibility! I looked hard at the stuff left over on the filter paper and it appeared to have melted into the paper completely.

I went to one of my several other tiny piles and mixed up a little more with the mineral oil and after a short time It became an opaque white gel...I rinsed it in acetone to see if it would dissolve the mineral oil and leave behind recrystallized TATP, but what I ended up with was a smooth very thick wad of goo that sat gathered in a tight acetone phobic way-- still acting as the precipitate it was, but it remained a liquid.

I may have not used enough acetone, perhaps it doesn't do well to cut the mineral oil but after chasing off the acetone the substance remained a thick syrup. I was not successful at making it achieve the point of detonation. I even tried using one of the explosive pellets I made using APNC as a crude blasting cap for it since by now I had all my new AP involved in mineral oil by now from all the various things I was torturing it with to make it detonate and the APNC blew the shit all over the place without setting any of it off! Even dribbled some into a small brass tube, pretty much a wish for missing limbs for sure with any explosive associated with 'peroxide' in its name, and it acted sort of like a very volatile rocket propellant and did finally explode with no shock wave at all. Gunpowder has more vod that any of the stuff I tested--It seems to have greatly reduced the sensitivity of it as well as it achieving the detonation point prior to deflagration.

I would certainly not make any conjecture on its predictability, or it being the least bit more stable at all since it lulled me into loading the last I had into a brass tube as a hail Mary to the confinement gods, after having no success at all at making it detonate trying all sorts of seemingly sure fire ways and had used up the entire batch of TATP I had at that point already.

I am certain it will still detonate given the appropriate conditions though, so I am thinking I would rather just keep a few tiny piles of the dry stuff left open to the air and far enough away from each other to not be a threat since I have no question of how unstable it is and always expect that behavior from it without question--making it more stable for my mindset than some oily goo that may or may not go off, or maybe has transformed into something completely different and feeling spontaneous the next time I walk past it...

So I was just wondering what others think about my observations. Also, it is how I stumbled into this forum. I did see some comments that appeared to be speculative considering how it affected the AP I worked with, but then again my AP could have been not actually AP too...but I am thinking that would have been nearly impossible, but still has anyone tried it yet? I was totally surprised by it--lending to its inherent unpredictability.

At any rate, it seems like my TATP kind of went from being the mother of Satan to maybe filling in for his elderly grandmother who's out on a date with Pan--she's still spunky and makes threats with her walker at you, but mostly she's just full of smoke, and farts a lot. :-D

BTW APNC works in the pellets, but is far too insensitive to impact to actually go off when shot at most anything other than a steel plate or a rock, in which case makes a very audible difference! It's amazing how much will fit into such a small place after you gel it and enlarge the hole in the pellets a little before filling them multiple times to allow for shrinkage as it dried, they have a surprising amount of punch though and leave notable indentations/pock marks on the metal plate too! A pellet alone only splatters out with no affect on the steel.

roXefeller - 5-1-2015 at 16:44

:o

NeonPulse - 6-1-2015 at 20:23

Reading this makes me shudder. The thought of plasticizing TATP is just insane. Dont forget our old buddy "Phone" he is just one of many who walked the plank and paid with his life. There's so many alternatives why would one even consider doing something so dangerous? Not doing this and taking the advice above is a very good idea. They didn't nickname this substance "The mother of satan" for no reason.
Please be sure to post your results in the accidents thread.

God with you

Laboratory of Liptakov - 7-1-2015 at 15:00

Infospunge: If you are aged 70 years and you bored with life, keep research TATP. If you're young, you forget the word TATP. Plastic coating TATP is not interesting. Research nobody will do. Each of you only scold. Every experienced, I think. God with you ...:cool:...LL

franklyn - 8-1-2015 at 00:51

The MEKP + TACP blend has been discussed elsewhere. That brew is intended to improve the lackluster explosive performance of MEKP by fortifying with the better performing TACP , while one supposes , retaining the safer properties of liquid MEKP. I suppose one can reduce the MEKP proportion until the mixture is no longer a liquid solution but rather a plastic mass. This however will not diminish to the same extent the danger inherent to handling TACP and may actually increase the risk of it being exploded unintentionally. I'm only thinking out loud here , the consensus of opinion weighs against handling peroxides as being risky.

For a better alternative see _
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=9201#p...

.

Microtek - 8-1-2015 at 01:13

I agree that not doing this would be a good idea, but note that many professional scientists have less practical experience with energetics than amateurs, since many countries heavily regulate research on such things. This, coupled with the fact that many beginners experiment unsystematically and with too large amounts and thus kill or maim themselves, cause TATP to have a reputation for sensitivity that, in my opinion, is worse than deserved.
I have met university professors and lab technicians that won't synthesize even microscopic amounts of NG, for fear of spontaneous detonation.

I don't think it would be too dangerous to experiment with plasticizing small (<1 gram) amounts of TATP, provided that you take adequate precautions (don't use your hands for kneading it, wear protective clothing and face shield, etc.).

Hennig Brand - 8-1-2015 at 09:13

I have made and used MEKP + TATP liquid mixtures before before. I was reading some posts by Rosco at the time, but I would have to dig to find them. I remember that the mixture I used was an extremely good sensitizer for ammonium nitrate; 5% or so, IIRC, made a charge sensitive to a #6 equivalent cap. It does however produce quite toxic and irritating fumes, and it is more of an unknown quantity and weaker compared to some of the other better known explosives, so I never really bothered with it much after a couple of tests. I think the extra effort required to produce NG is well worth it. If one was interested in it though, it probably could be gelled or made into part of a plastic mass somehow.

I agree that TATP has almost certainly been given a much worse reputation than deserved. It is often made and used in such large quantities in careless fashion by the inexperienced, due in large part because it is so easy and cheap to make in large quantity. It is of course a primary explosive, and it is often handled like it was a moderately sensitive secondary. I remember how nervous I was the first couple of times I made NG. I had heard all the overblown stories since I was a child of the NI3 type sensitivity of NG. One of my neighbors worked in the mines and had taken several explosives safety courses. I remember him saying that a container of NG could be gently rocked back and forth, but if any sloshed back on itself and splashed at all that it would all detonate. I was amazed at how insensitive NG actually was, at room temperature, when I actually became more familiar with it years later. Don't get me wrong, NG still deserves a lot of respect and care in manufacturing and handling.


[Edited on 8-1-2015 by Hennig Brand]

Praxichys - 8-1-2015 at 12:02

@ Hennig Brand

I too recall my first NG synthesis, and failing to set it off in the manner I used to set off MEKP. Imagine my surprise when a last, frustrated strong overhand blow of a hammer caused an concussion that knocked dust off the rafters. I was hooked. :)

I also enjoyed the sheer energy of the stuff compared to equivalent volumes of peroxides, peeling surprisingly large holes through witness plates rather than bending them.

Unfortunately I had not gained the ability to nitrate anything before I made stupid quantities of the peroxides...

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=20&...

Hennig Brand - 8-1-2015 at 18:21

Yeah, NG is wonderful stuff. It doesn't work in most military applications, due in large part because of its sensitivity (explosives made with it tend to detonate when supersonic bullets pass through them, or from the setback of a gun), but other than that it is an extremely versatile material. Even one or two drops hit with a hammer on a steel surface is really impressive. I used to do it without hearing protection as well, which was not sensible at all. When a drop or two would detonate I remember going deaf for a second or so and then my ears would ring for a long time afterwards. If I have serious hearing problems later in life it will be no surprise. I try to be a lot more careful of my ears and other body parts now. :)

maxenzo2 - 1-2-2015 at 11:14

Quote: Originally posted by MCtiaguinho  
i want to see plasticized NI3 ;D

i beleve i could do it to tatp.
any ideas?

Thank you

oh no :O not another one fucking up things here in the country with stupidity,chemicals to make energetics is getting harder to find(or even for other uses including their intent ex: ammonium nitrate as fertilizer),some day i will need to show my ID just to buy baking soda.