Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Glow-in-the-dark plants go on sale

IrC - 29-3-2014 at 03:33

http://www.foxnews.com/science/2014/03/27/glow-in-dark-plant...

The website:

http://www.glowingplant.com/

I am curious if anyone has looked into this topic and what information you might have. They say by this summer you can get the seeds, as well you can pre order now so I assume this might be a good idea since it looks like they may sell out rapidly. They also state the genetic design will be 'open source'.

Equally interesting is the 'genome compiler' they are using to design and improve this new synthetic species.

BromicAcid - 29-3-2014 at 06:06

What kind of plant is it? I think it would be phenomenal to use these to line paths leading up to a home but curious if it would survive a winter. Very cool.

Chemosynthesis - 29-3-2014 at 10:09

I saw a story about that type of thing a few years ago, I think on the proof of concept of glowing trees and speculation on antiquating streetlights. I'm curious what vectors and promoters they used originally, and how many different types of plant they offer.

IrC - 29-3-2014 at 10:32

Completely synthetic genome, yet somehow reminds me of Day of the Triffids.

Think I'll look for flamethrower plans just in case it gets away from them.

Chemosynthesis - 29-3-2014 at 10:55

Quote: Originally posted by IrC  
Completely synthetic genome, yet somehow reminds me of Day of the Triffids.

Looked like they transformed the cells after propagating the DNA in bacterial cultures from the story. You mean the other recent news?
http://www.livescience.com/44404-first-synthetic-yeast-chrom...
Interesting how we now have synthetic eukaryotes from just a few years ago in a bacterium.
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2010/may/20/craig-venter-...

Etaoin Shrdlu - 29-3-2014 at 15:46

Fantastic! I've been excited about this since the Kickstarter (which I barely missed having a chance to fund, unfortunately). This is how genetic engineering should go. No kill-switches and plants you'd be violating patents to try to improve.

The_Davster - 29-3-2014 at 17:59

They seem to have a DIY kit with a bacteria and non-glowing seeds to make your own glowing plant. I do not have the necessary biology knowledge, but can one take the bacteria and a different type of seed and make other glowing plants? Like an apple tree or something?

Chemosynthesis - 29-3-2014 at 18:13

I don't think so. Where do you see the kit?

In a simplified procedure for most genetic modifications, you generally use a vector of some kind to transform bacteria, which inserts your gene of interest into the bacterial genome. You then use a screening and selection method to isolate only the presumed monoclonal bacterial colonies which express your gene functionally. In their case, it appears the original gene was from a bacterium, and they probably cloned it into E. coli, which is cheap, easy to grow, and pretty well mapped genetically in terms of promoters, etc.

You use the new bacteria as giant DNA or protein bags to grow many copies of your product, then lyse them, separate, and either run experiments with (usually protein), or excise and possibly clone into another organism (DNA).

I don't know if they have even newer techniques than that, but they seem to have slightly modified the gene of interest and synthetically printed it, which I know little about, prior to introducing it to what I would imagine is an E. coli culture for optimal replication.
edit- typo

[Edited on 30-3-2014 by Chemosynthesis]

Texium - 29-3-2014 at 18:13

That would be really awesome… particularly if it then produced glowing apples that carried the glowing gene!
Biologists would probably laugh at us upon reading this though.

Chemosynthesis - 29-3-2014 at 18:21

Quote: Originally posted by zts16  
That would be really awesome… particularly if it then produced glowing apples that carried the glowing gene!
Biologists would probably laugh at us upon reading this though.

I haven't encountered any self-identified biologists who would laugh. Some people consider me a biologist at work, though I don't profess to be one. People've already made glowing pigs, fish (for sale), monkeys, etc.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4605202.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8070252.stm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7-ofCWJiUg
http://www.glofish.com/

The_Davster - 29-3-2014 at 20:36

Quote: Originally posted by Chemosynthesis  
Where do you see the kit?



http://www.glowingplant.com/maker

[Edited on 30-3-14 by The_Davster]

PeeWee2000 - 29-3-2014 at 21:05

Epic stuff, now my entire garden will be able to glow along with my pool and compost pile :D
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Glow-in-the-dark-mushroom-Panellus-s...
http://www.algabiotics.com/Products.html

And people say that engineered negligible senesence won't happen within my lifetime...... SCIENCE BITCH! Now we just need to take the genes of the electric eel and wire power outlets into all my trees in my backyard :P

[Edited on 30-3-2014 by PeeWee2000]

Chemosynthesis - 29-3-2014 at 21:54

Quote: Originally posted by The_Davster  

http://www.glowingplant.com/maker

I stand corrected; apparently agrobacterium can serve as a horizontal gene transfer vector with both plants and fungi. Learn something new every day!

Edit- though, the promoter specificity and insertion of your gene is less likely to be as effective in other organisms. At least one method involves inserting genes with a certain amount of overlap with endogenous DNA, so it sticks and is replicated. This is somewhat tailored to region of insertion and organism.

[Edited on 30-3-2014 by Chemosynthesis]

The_Davster - 29-3-2014 at 22:24

Quote: Originally posted by PeeWee2000  
Now we just need to take the genes of the electric eel and wire power outlets into all my trees in my backyard :P



It is the prospective of producing electricity from trees, that makes me wish I was a biologist instead of chemist. It would be amazing to be the one to discover how to do this, and I am betting this will happen in my lifetime.

Chemosynthesis - 29-3-2014 at 22:55

That would be interesting. Unfortunately, it appears you'd need an excitable biological membrane for this to work. Never heard of a plant with a nervous system.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-do-electric-ee...

The_Davster - 30-3-2014 at 00:11

But as long as photosynthesis involves electron transfer, there must be a way to harness that?

Chemosynthesis - 30-3-2014 at 06:23

Theoretically, though the photo system proteins in photosynthesis are relatively much more localized than a nervous system, which I believe necessitates an organ or tissue network rather than just a few proteins in a cell. Multicellular organisms still have cell polarity, differentiation, and signalling issues no one remotely understands, and I do not see that changing in the near future.

Tsjerk - 30-3-2014 at 07:19

I really like the work of the people made the fluorescent plant possible. The people trying to sell it I like a bit less.

Please do not get me wrong, synthetic engineering is one of the more promising sciences, but what the sellers are trying to do here, and correct me if I'm wrong, is making money.


I have been studying molecular biology for five years now, working full time in molecular biology labs for almost two years now, and I think I would have difficulties with the procedure in a home lab. of course; In the lab I work at right now... no problem. But only with the training I had over the years.

Of course, anyone could train himself. But even the real seeds they are selling are only worth a buck or five.. per a ten-thousand.
Arabidopsis grows like shit, and reproduces like shit, the work they have done could have been done 20 years ago, and the only reason they are selling these seeds right now is because before GMO's would have be seen as 'evil'.

If you want a glowing in the dark strain of A. thaliana, go to the nearest university which does molecular biology research on plants and the will have tenths of thousands of seeds laying around. You just have to grow them.

Edit; I'm pretty sure this isn't even a real ''glowing'' plant either. looking at the stuff they send it is a fluorescent plant, not a luminescent plant. The do it yourself kit is even worth less than then actually seeds they are selling ( with the seeds they would have to grow them). Even if you would have to buy everything yourself, or improvise, I get to about ten dollars. The DNA, you could get at any university as stated before.

They are a ripoff.


[Edited on 30-3-2014 by Tsjerk]

[Edited on 30-3-2014 by Tsjerk]

Tsjerk - 30-3-2014 at 07:43

Or maybe you can even ask the molecular biologists at your local university if you could preform the experiment at their lab, against compensation of the actual costs. If you would ask me or my supervisor, we would probably let you do it for free.

At the same time you will have someone around who can help you when it doesn't work out.

plante1999 - 30-3-2014 at 07:48

They can put whatever price they want to sell them you know, if someone think it is too much he simply has to find another source. And if there is none, they have the monopoly, so they can sell even higher. It is how Capitalism work If I recall correctly.

I have no problem with that. If I would want I could sell a gram of Red phosphorus or 500$. Much more then the actual value, but it is not a rip-off, it is the buyer responsibility to figure out what is too costly for him. I could also sell one gram of Red phosphorus for 0.01$. which would not be a rip-off for me too, since it is the seller responsibility to figure out a reasonable price so he can get some profit, and not negative profit.

I would not buy that, since it is way too costly for me compared to the need I have for such an item.

[Edited on 30-3-2014 by plante1999]

Etaoin Shrdlu - 30-3-2014 at 09:18

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
Please do not get me wrong, synthetic engineering is one of the more promising sciences, but what the sellers are trying to do here, and correct me if I'm wrong, is making money.

And there's a problem with trying to recoup costs and make something on the side afterwards? There are a bunch of groups trying to get glowing plants which can be used as lights. Unlike any of the others I've seen, this project is open source and accessible. All their DNA designs are already available for anyone to look at. Everything else supposedly will be once it's completed. You can take their work, do whatever you want to it yourself, propagate it and transfer it to other people as much as you like. You can duplicate what they've done, create something completely new from it, take advantage of the work without ever sending them a cent. You can wait a year for someone to grow the plants out and offer you a handful of seeds for free. Or, if you'd rather, you can buy a handful of them now for $50 + shipping. How is it a bad thing to make these things accessible to people without a lab to do the genetic modification themselves? Don't you get paid for your work?

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
Edit; I'm pretty sure this isn't even a real ''glowing'' plant either. looking at the stuff they send it is a fluorescent plant, not a luminescent plant.

No. It's actually luminescent. Jealous? I sure as hell am.

[Edited on 3-30-2014 by Etaoin Shrdlu]

The_Davster - 30-3-2014 at 09:32

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
Or maybe you can even ask the molecular biologists at your local university if you could preform the experiment at their lab, against compensation of the actual costs. If you would ask me or my supervisor, we would probably let you do it for free.

At the same time you will have someone around who can help you when it doesn't work out.


So you are saying you have access to glowing plant seeds at a price point of 5$/ 10000 seeds, and these people are likely selling for over a hundred for a few small handfuls of seeds?

Let me pitch you a business idea....;)

Tsjerk - 30-3-2014 at 11:59

Ok, if they are really luminescent, and not just fluorescent, I stand corrected. In that case I don't have a ten-thousand ready, but with 500 seeds you could make 50.000 in under three months, unless they made them infertile.

Open source doesn't really say anything, that will only give you the sequence of the DNA they used and the opportunity to sell their product after you grew seeds of the plants (if at all possible).

Could anyone point me to the place where they actually say the plants are luminescent though? I don't really see the actual statement anywhere.

Edit: If they are fluorescent, then yes, I have access to 1.000.000 in three months for under 100 dollar.

[Edited on 30-3-2014 by Tsjerk]

[Edited on 30-3-2014 by Tsjerk]

Etaoin Shrdlu - 30-3-2014 at 14:09

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
Open source doesn't really say anything, that will only give you the sequence of the DNA they used and the opportunity to sell their product after you grew seeds of the plants (if at all possible).

And their protocols, and access to the bacteria they used...unlike nearly every commercial GMO organism up to this point, where they hide as much as they can, often damage reproduction capability deliberately, and forbid people from breeding new organisms if they do manage to get around the artificial restrictions. These guys will give you everything they did and say "Sure. Do it yourself."

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
Could anyone point me to the place where they actually say the plants are luminescent though? I don't really see the actual statement anywhere.

Every single place they say "no electricity." UV light for fluorescence needs electricity. I'm willing to bet they're doing something very similar to Bioglow with Starlight Avatar, only these people are nice enough not to put restrictions on what you do with the plants.

Subcomputer - 30-3-2014 at 20:32

You seem to be unfamiliar with scientific requirements in this field. Posting the DNA sequence is only a small move, one of the very minimums that you have to do before you can publish. To the point where GenBank/EMBL and parent International Nucleotide Sequence Database Collaboration is full of sequences from papers that haven't been published yet and likely never will be. These people haven't been as open as they want it to look. I'll believe it when I see it, so far it's just promises.

Tsjerk - 31-3-2014 at 01:53

I have to agree with Subcomputer, I first have to see how much they tell; for example if the seeds they provide with the kit are wild-type and so on.

By the way, the won't survive the winter. They have a live cycle of around three months of which the pictures of the glowing plants they show are between 4-6 weeks. Before that the are really small, after that, they start to pump all their energy into the production of seeds, which will probably ruin the luminescence.

Off course you can grow them inside during winter, but depending off the country you live in you will probably need extra (electrical) illumination.

If growing outside, forget about growing in Autumn or winter when you live in a climate where there is a significant difference between the length of day between the different seasons. These plants are sensitive for the length of the day regarding their growth cycle. They really don't get happy if you mess with the length of the day (keep in mind artificial light also messes this process up, especially blue and red light, look up dark and light plants for this).

Maybe it is possible when you live in sub-tropical/tropical/desert conditions, but remember they can not stand to much direct sun and need to be kept moist during growth. Also they need sandy and pour ground.

The sandy and pour ground makes me wonder how much light they are really going to produce, but that is another story.

Etaoin Shrdlu - 31-3-2014 at 04:07

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
I have to agree with Subcomputer, I first have to see how much they tell; for example if the seeds they provide with the kit are wild-type and so on.

You need non-glowing plants to do your own transformation. I'd be more interested in wild-type myself out of curiosity about how variations would affect light output, but hey, I can see why some people would swing towards something more standard. As for the rest, are these plants really easy to mass-produce, or really difficult? ;)

Subcomputer, you seem to be unfamiliar with Monsanto and completely missing my point. I wasn't aware, either, of a single field where you were required to make your work available to the general public for free - most journals out there are decidedly non-free and you go from the horror of paying for a handful of seeds to needing to pay in order to see what they even did.

Tsjerk - 31-3-2014 at 07:08

I understand you need non-glowing plants to do your transformation, but this does not say anything about the seeds being wild-type (WT, meaning; considered natural, not-altered).

The fact why I wonder why the seeds are wild-type or not is because I wonder whether the glowing plants produced with this kit will be fertile.

Even if the seeds are WT that doesn't mean the offspring will be fertile... There are so many tricks in molecular plant breeding I won't even speculate on what the could be doing here...

Therefore I said I would first like to see all the plant strains, bacterial strains and DNA sequences they use before I believe what they're selling is really as good as what the want use to believe.

Edit; In real live the only meaning you can give to WT is it being a strain that is recognized by most scientists as being ''natural''. It is not, but at least everybody uses the same strain when referring to WT, it is not a GMO in the narrowest sense of the word

[Edited on 31-3-2014 by Tsjerk]

[Edited on 31-3-2014 by Tsjerk]

Chemosynthesis - 31-3-2014 at 07:30

Quote: Originally posted by Etaoin Shrdlu  
Subcomputer, you seem to be unfamiliar with Monsanto and completely missing my point. I wasn't aware, either, of a single field where you were required to make your work available to the general public for free - most journals out there are decidedly non-free and you go from the horror of paying for a handful of seeds to needing to pay in order to see what they even did.

Some journals in biomed research, and all experiments with public funding not restricted in some manner to security clearances, require some form of public data accessibility such as GEO or aforementioned... but there are often no standards for how you present data. I have trawled through lots of worthless genetic or bioinformatic data because the structuring and labeling was proprietary or shoddy. I have even seen PDF files of .CSV data that effectively truncated cells, rendering them completely unusable. Some of that is probably "government work" and sub par researcher inspired, but some is inarguably calculated to maintain a strategic positioning in the field.
I have yet to see obscuration of actual gene constructs or primers, though I have seen IP claimed such as in Taq polymerase... though any biology lab above highschool level should be capable of designing their own primers and illegally pumping out their own.
Even without restriction endonuclease site information, a differential digest, Southern blot, and subsequent PCR should yield that information. The actual transformation would be the trickiest part, in my experience. I've seen membrane receptors localize in the nucleus... where they are never otherwise found, within stable human constructs. These were apparently very difficult to get from transients and became a bit of a joke where I work to everyone outside the lab which made them.

Tsjerk - 31-3-2014 at 08:05

Quote: Originally posted by Chemosynthesis  

I've seen membrane receptors localize in the nucleus... where they are never otherwise found, within stable human constructs.


Oh Yes! The joy of transmembrane proteins and their localization... They are bastards.



[Edited on 31-3-2014 by Tsjerk]

[Edited on 31-3-2014 by Tsjerk]

Etaoin Shrdlu - 31-3-2014 at 10:52

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
Edit; In real live the only meaning you can give to WT is it being a strain that is recognized by most scientists as being ''natural''. It is not, but at least everybody uses the same strain when referring to WT, it is not a GMO in the narrowest sense of the word

That's the same definition I'm familiar with, though in regards to fish, invertebrates, and amphibians.

It's quite possible that the plants will be sterile, but I consider it unlikely. Since their initial method of introducing the genes for luminescence required a plant pathogen, unless something's changed very recently they're going to need to switch to using a gene gun in order to produce plants that they can legally sell. Since they're very confident of getting seeds out of the strain afterwards, I consider that the plants are probably fertile.

Quote: Originally posted by Chemosynthesis  
Some journals in biomed research, and all experiments with public funding not restricted in some manner to security clearances, require some form of public data accessibility such as GEO or aforementioned... but there are often no standards for how you present data. I have trawled through lots of worthless genetic or bioinformatic data because the structuring and labeling was proprietary or shoddy. I have even seen PDF files of .CSV data that effectively truncated cells, rendering them completely unusable. Some of that is probably "government work" and sub par researcher inspired, but some is inarguably calculated to maintain a strategic positioning in the field.
I have yet to see obscuration of actual gene constructs or primers, though I have seen IP claimed such as in Taq polymerase... though any biology lab above highschool level should be capable of designing their own primers and illegally pumping out their own.
Even without restriction endonuclease site information, a differential digest, Southern blot, and subsequent PCR should yield that information. The actual transformation would be the trickiest part, in my experience. I've seen membrane receptors localize in the nucleus... where they are never otherwise found, within stable human constructs. These were apparently very difficult to get from transients and became a bit of a joke where I work to everyone outside the lab which made them.

There are similar problems in chemistry, unfortunately, though I'd like to think they're probably less terrible than what biologists run into simply because of the sheer complexity of living organisms.

I think we're seeing this from very different angles, though. You seem to be looking at it from an academic perspective, where requirements to publish research are key considerations; I'm used to working in industry where not publishing research is considered to be optimal, and I think that's the same sort of attitude a lot of commercial genetic engineering tends to fall under. I just think it's rather nice that this is being offered as a potential starting block to everyone, even those who don't have a lab but would like to do some selective breeding, rather than coming loaded with kill switches, obscured data, and orders not to propagate as very well could have happened. This is a pretty big plus coming from people who are trying to make money, and it's a very big plus on the heels of Starlight Avatar which comes with the following starkly contrasting and hilarious terms of use:

Bioglow grants the buyer a limited license to use the purchased plant for personal, ornamental,non-research and non-commercial use only.
Not to use the plant, seeds, flowers, germplasm, plant tissue, transplants, genetic material or any part of the plant for any breeding, tissue culture, sexual or asexual propagation, seed production, reverse engineering, genetic fingerprinting, molecular or genetic analysis or engineering, or research.
No plant or any part of the plant may be preserved or used in any way for self- or cross-pollination reproductions, cloning or any other germplasm extraction, multiplying or manipulation.
Not to copy, extract, reproduce, modify or translate any part of the genetic material contained in the plant, seed or any part of the plant.
Not to sell, offer to sell, transfer, export, sublicense, give, or supply the plant, seeds, or any part of the plant, to any other person or entity.
Plant is not for human or animal consumption.
All rights not specifically granted are reserved by Bioglow.


You guys may not find this useful or impressive (and alright, it's certainly a gimmick), but compared to the way other commercial entities have been treating GMOs, this is a direction I am very giddy about.

[Edited on 3-31-2014 by Etaoin Shrdlu]

Tsjerk - 31-3-2014 at 11:03



''Since they're very confident of getting seeds out of the strain afterwards, I consider that the plants are probably fertile.''

That is just the point, it is in all not necessary to have fertile plants to produce fertile seeds, just have a look at what the big seed companies are doing in the US when they sell their GMO seeds which are not fertile themselves.

[Edited on 31-3-2014 by Tsjerk]

Chemosynthesis - 31-3-2014 at 13:17

Quote: Originally posted by Etaoin Shrdlu  

There are similar problems in chemistry, unfortunately, though I'd like to think they're probably less terrible than what biologists run into simply because of the sheer complexity of living organisms.

Isn't science, the practice/bureaucracy (as opposed to the methodology) weird? I worked a fairly short time in synthesis after graduating, and I definitely saw papers from China and India with either a) results the grads and PI couldn't replicate, or b) yields none of us believed, and had to be inflated.

The other big difference I see, stemming from the complexity of biochemical systems, in publication bullshit-ability between chem/bio type publications is that there are far more of the biochemically based assays than I ever encountered in chemical characterization techniques; the difference between electrical or scratch wound healing, or healing compared to cell migration assays, using MTT vs. MTS, caspase assays, or Trypan staining, changing buffers/media for cells, etc. as nauseum, or even blot image manipulation, can all be extremely deceptive to biochemist/biologist types who are not involved in your subspecialty, but might work in your lab, across the hall, at a funding body, or feel knowledgeable enough to review your papers.

With pure chemistry, I always felt I could trust an NMR, Mass-Spec, and aside from questions on the solvent and column, generally accept HPLC, but that could have been ignorance from furthering my education and professional experience outside of pure chemistry. When running HPLC on cell lysates, or STD NMR on a drug lead against a target protein, questions about solvents and gradients that never took up as much time in synthesis. In biochemisty/pharmacology, I often have to ask if I understand what exactly the published methodology and data are telling me in ways I did not previously consider.

Etaoin Shrdlu - 31-3-2014 at 13:56

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  


''Since they're very confident of getting seeds out of the strain afterwards, I consider that the plants are probably fertile.''

That is just the point, it is in all not necessary to have fertile plants to produce fertile seeds, just have a look at what the big seed companies are doing in the US when they sell their GMO seeds which are not fertile themselves.

[Edited on 31-3-2014 by Tsjerk]

I think they tend to be fertile, farmers just aren't legally allowed to save seed from them. Some of them might also be hybrid GMOs so that you get a whole mess of different phenotypes in the next generation which is undesirable even if they still have the original desired modification. Most corn farmers in the US use hybrid seed like this whether it's GMO or not, and tend to buy every year rather than saving seed like farmers in many other parts of the world. I do know Monsanto has killswitch technology, but not the specifics behind it. Now I'm curious. Something to look into over the week.

Now, this was my reasoning. Correct me if I'm wrong. It's been a long time since I even thought about this sort of thing. To modify plants with a gene gun, they'd do the following:

1: Culture plant cells.
2: Fire nanoparticles coated with DNA into the cell culture.
3: Pick out individual cells from the "good" middle ring, where the cells aren't completely destroyed by the impact or mostly missed by the genetic material, then treat them with hormones to get them to differentiate into entire plants.
4: Self-pollinate plants that show the desired modification to get seed for the next generation.

I can't really see a good way for the plants from those seeds to be infertile when the parents weren't. Maybe they could require specific conditions in order to be capable of fertility, though.

EDIT: Alright, this is pretty clever.

However, there are no restrictions against tissue culturing or any of the other bizarre look-don't-touch terms that Bioglow has in place. I really do think these guys are trying to keep the project as open as possible. They'll only damage their credibility if a bunch of people find out after being promised they could do whatever they wanted, that actually there are a bunch of deliberate barriers in place. And they could have a really good deal going if they make a name for themselves as the ones to go to for glowing varieties of all sorts of plants.

[Edited on 3-31-2014 by Etaoin Shrdlu]

Tsjerk - 1-4-2014 at 05:04

@Etaoin Shrdlu; the gene gun isn't the preferred way of plant transformation for the last fifteen years as far as I know. Everyone goes with the agrobacterium method nowadays, and if not elektroporation of protoplasts.

I don't know how Monsanto does it, but their seeds are non-reproductive. They form seeds, but these are not viable.

It would be nearly undo-able/impossible to check every farmer if their crops are first generation or not. Better to make it impossible, not?

Edit: The patent posted is pretty outdated as well, 20 years sounds like two centuries to a molecular biologist.

[Edited on 1-4-2014 by Tsjerk]

Etaoin Shrdlu - 1-4-2014 at 10:39

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
@Etaoin Shrdlu; the gene gun isn't the preferred way of plant transformation for the last fifteen years as far as I know. Everyone goes with the agrobacterium method nowadays, and if not elektroporation of protoplasts.

They announced they would be using a gene gun. I should have been clearer.

Would elektroporation allow seeds to be altered directly, with a high degree (say 90%) of success? Wouldn't it also require viable adults to produce seed if they wanted to sell it? I'm not familliar with this method at all.

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
I don't know how Monsanto does it, but their seeds are non-reproductive. They form seeds, but these are not viable.

Actually, supposedly Monsanto doesn't do it at all. They hold patents to do it, but they've pledged not to use them (and I think this is because it's not economically feasible to have additional strains going for one seed crop when they could just use fertile plants and maximize space). I think other people may do it - I know the idea's been found viable. I can't point you to whom though. I'd actually been assuming Monsanto was at first until I went looking through their patents and read a little of the history. For all I know now I may have been completely mistaken and everyone's playing somewhat nice about introducing sterility.

They definitely do sue for saving seed from crops - 145 lawsuits from 1997 to what I'm assuming is 2010.

The patent may be old, I think the idea of using multiple engineered strains to crossbreed infertile plants is the key though. It's also if I understand correctly, no longer in force in the US at least - so technically all the agro-businesses here have use of it if they so desire.

I think the ability to engineer infertile plants hasn't yet turned out to be as much of a problem as people originally thought it would. It's just the entire mindset behind developing things like that which is scary, and I'm not seeing that in the glowing arabidopsis project. Maybe you're right, though, maybe they pulled some jerk move. We'll probably have to wait a few months after the seeds ship to find out for certain. Unfortunately I have the exact opposite of a green thumb so will likely have trouble getting any of them to grow to begin with, let alone enough for extensive testing. (Doesn't apply underwater, oddly enough.)

But now for the most important question - if gene guns are antique tech now, why won't anyone sell me an old one for the price of a benchtop minicentrifuge? Disappointment abounds.

[Edited on 4-1-2014 by Etaoin Shrdlu]

Chemosynthesis - 1-4-2014 at 11:03

Quote: Originally posted by Etaoin Shrdlu  

Would elektroporation allow seeds to be altered directly, with a high degree (say 90%) of success? Wouldn't it also require viable adults to produce seed if they wanted to sell it? I'm not familliar with this method at all.

It's theoretically possible to produce somatic mutations in the fertilized seeds, which would not carry the transformation to the next generation, but I wouldn't believe one could do that reliably unless I saw it, at least currently.

I'm not sure about plants in particular, but I know most cells have a very minute chance of stable, surviving transformation/transfection, so I am pretty curious about how selection works to avoid mosaicism in survivors. I suppose chloroplast DNA might be homologous within species that it may be what is targeted in this case. I am pretty sure someone here could clue me in more about plant genetics.

Companies like Monsanto have screened and selected plants with multiple constitutively activated transformed genes of interest when they need to be turned on perpetually (and generally the best operons/promoters if not). This helps avoid the extreme waste in performing new transformations every time you want a mutation, and rolling the dice on what promoters you insert behind, if your organism survives, etc.

There is a bit of chance involved in most methods such as electroporation, heat shock, lipofectamine, etc. While efficient, you are essentially bathing cells in a solution of exogenous DNA, subject to diffusion, and trying not to overwhelm said cells in various stages of division, with variably accessible regions of DNA (topology dependent on individual sequence, numerous directly interacting proteins, cell cycle checkpoints, binding affinities, epigenetics, etc.)

karlos³ - 19-3-2017 at 12:30

Sorry for the necropost, but I didn´t wanted to start a new thread on its own for my post.

Since the project is now running for quite some time, I guess some progress has been made, if not by the people linked in the first post(their site hasn´t been updated for some time, e.g. 1-2 years) then by some others.
Reason I am asking this was a curious found at ebay, from a chinese seller in bad english and for a very low price, seeds of a "fluorescent light emitting plant" are offered there.
We all know the chinese don´t care much when it comes to using someone elses work, and they have very clever scientists too.

So what do you think, are these really bioluminescent plant seeds? Not even the species is named, but see for yourself: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-100Pcs-Emerald-Fluorescent-Flow...
I bought some as the price was low enough that it is no loss, if it is disappointing.
But could these be very real, bioluminescent plants?

BlackDragon2712 - 19-3-2017 at 16:55

Very fascinating... using Agrobacterium sp. to transfer the modified dna into the plant... it looks almost doable in a home set up... I wonder what protein are they using... maybe GFP in an E. Coli plasmid vector? I know of a few commercial plasmids that come with GFP... Imaging getting infected with an E. Coli with GFP plasmids... it would be interesting to say the least

Ursa - 20-3-2017 at 08:06

Quote: Originally posted by BromicAcid  
What kind of plant is it? I think it would be phenomenal to use these to line paths leading up to a home but curious if it would survive a winter. Very cool.


On the website it says its an Arabidopsis plant.