Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Black powder rockets and fireworks

copperastic - 9-4-2014 at 16:15

Hi, i've been watching videos about fireworks and black powder rockets and they use these special machines to make the clay, black powder and stuff form layers. Could I just use a big stick to push it? Also Is there a recipe to make a black powder rocket and have something explode at the end like make black powder stars with dextrin?
Thanks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_Z1WYaN0Wg (link with the pump thing)

roXefeller - 9-4-2014 at 16:41

This guy is all about end burner rockets and exploding fireworks (http://www.skylighter.com/). He sends out informative emails all the time.

I've seen people use rods and mallets, consistency can be a problem, but its a good starting point.

Bert - 9-4-2014 at 18:56

The tool used with a mallet to ram fuel into a black powder rocket's engine case is called a "drift". There are usually several of different lengths used.

Yes, you CAN make your own. Look around p. 34 of this book- It tells how to make your own tooling.

Here is Thomas Kentish- The Pyrotechnist's Treasury

Zephyr - 9-4-2014 at 21:03

When I used to make pyrotechnics, I would always use this type of small card board tubing. I found that drill bits make perfect drift, they are hard, have a flat bottom and come in all lengths and widths. The success of small bottle rockets is largely dependent on the quality of your black powder, and to achieve the desired particle size, I would ball mill mine for 36 hours. For this size of rocket, the most reliable exhaust hole is 1/8", in which a 1/16" fuse fits in snugly. For an explosive tip, I would seal both ends of the rocket with bentonite clay, and the would drill an identical 1/8" hole in the front end of the card board tube. Then I would cut an identical cardboard tube in half horizontally. One end of the empty card board tube would be sealed with bentonite, this time with no hole, and the remainder of the tube would be filled with flash powder. BE VERY CAREFUL not to compress the volatile flash powder. The flash powder filled card board tube is attached with duct tape to the front of the black powder filled rocket, so that when the BP finishes burning, the flash powder will ignite. The now complete rocket engine is then taped to a skewer.
Depending on the weight and the quality of the BP, the rocket will explode at about 200ft up.

hyfalcon - 10-4-2014 at 02:04

Whatever you do, DON'T start out with headings on your rockets. Get the rocket part down first and have CONSISTENTLY flying rockets BEFORE you EVER put any headings on ANY of your rockets. Not doing so can have one come down on you or someone else before the heading goes off. Having a 50gram flash charge go off by your head would not be fun.

Also start out with BP headings then when you are sure you have a consistent design, graduate to the more energetic headings.

[Edited on 10-4-2014 by hyfalcon]

copperastic - 10-4-2014 at 12:38

roXefeller I signed up and it didnt send me an email.

hyfalcon - 10-4-2014 at 13:06

Takes time copperastic. They aren't a large corporation. They may actually be mixing chemicals for a personal display. It's less than 3 months to the 4th of July.

Zyklon-A - 10-4-2014 at 13:39

They send me an email every day, sometimes two.

aga - 10-4-2014 at 15:10

Start with just cardboard tubes.

Wet the tube slightly and pull a string around it about 1 cm from the end to make a nozzle.
Allow it to dry.

Clay definitely works best, but cardboard & paper are easier unless you want to invest in tooling.

Any head end should be added once you're sure the thing flies AWAY.

Mine tend to be homing devices.

Giving the propellant some Air Time seems to help - the mixture grabs water from the air or similar, and mixes itself better. Lead balls and a rotating cylinder will probably be even better still.

copperastic - 10-4-2014 at 17:47

If by the fuse I had the hole be in a cardboard thing would it burn and the black powder fall out? Sorry if it sounds confusing because I dont know the vocabulary for fireworks.

hyfalcon - 10-4-2014 at 18:53

There's a lot of good information on Skylighter. A BP rocket has to have the fuel grain compacted into a hard grain. If your BP is falling out then it is WAY under-packed. When building a BP rocket, I use a dead blow hammer and whack the drift about 5-6 good blows with each increment of BP. In a .5in rocket, you only add about 1/2 a teaspoon of BP at a time, then the 5-6 whacks then another 1/2 till I get it up to where I want it for a bulkhead. Bulkhead gets 1/2 teaspoon of bentonite clay, then the requisite 5-6 whacks. If you just want a rocket with no heading you only have to add a stick long enough that it will balance your rocket head and all right behind the nozzle. If you don't get enough weight in the stick it could chase you around the yard. That's why you don't put heading on your rockets at first.

[Edited on 11-4-2014 by hyfalcon]

copperastic - 11-4-2014 at 03:35

Does the length of the rocket matter. Like could i just fold up a toilet roll and that would be my tube.

Bert - 11-4-2014 at 04:44

Rocket engine cases need to be pretty strong. Rolled from high quality virgin Kraft paper or good quality thin cardboard (file folder material is good), not low quality recycled materials. If the paper looks grayish and you can see little flecks of crap in it, it's recycled.

Some people have used fiberglass tubeing. For sugar fuels, some have used plastic pipe (I don't recommend!). DO NOT even think about using metal for casings!

Here is an article on tube rolling:

And here is a general fireworks rocket article

And here is the source for the above:

I think the author of these was Dan Thames, regardless, this is all workable amateur pyrotechnics information.

nitrates for blackpowder

copperastic - 13-4-2014 at 06:24

Hi, I'm interested in making fireworks. For black powder you need a nitrate so would copper nitrate and strontium nitrate be able to be used?
Thanks

copperastic - 13-4-2014 at 06:26

Oops just noticed that this shouldve been in energetic materials.... Can someone move it?

Texium - 13-4-2014 at 06:38

I haven't yet tried, but I was wondering the same thing and was considering making some with strontium nitrate or barium nitrate. Maybe even combinations of different nitrates?
Sorry for the open speculation. I didn't do a thorough search, but it seems like any nitrate will work in place of potassium nitrate, but with varying levels of success.

Fantasma4500 - 13-4-2014 at 06:49

i know a person who has made strontium nitrate based rocket fuel and i recall it was something around the same as blackpowder, said it had abit more force, this would make sense if you consider its higher density.. barium nitrate would probably work aswell? it should have even higher density
just supposing this because i have 2 100g plastic bags with BaO2 and SrO2, the SrO2 fills around 160% of the BaO2

Texium - 13-4-2014 at 07:01

I take it that you'd also want to make the powders with a molar ratio equal to normal black powder, and not simply replacing the potassium nitrate with an equivalent weight of another one, since it may be a drastically different amount of chemical despite being the same in weight. Definitely keep that in mind.

Zyklon-A - 13-4-2014 at 07:46

I could try it today, I have barium, strontium, calcium, potassium, and sodium nitrate. It seems like barium, calcium and strontium nitrates would work best due to they're higher oxidation-state, thus they have two nitrate- ions of every cation, as apposed to only one with the alkali's.

[Edited on 13-4-2014 by Zyklonb]

weeksie98 - 13-4-2014 at 08:07

Bear in mind the nature of the combustion of black powder when using these nitrates. Barium and strontium nitrate tend to burn more smokily, and the smoke can be slightly toxic. Also the smoke will reek of SO2, but that shouldn't be a problem :D. Incorrect molar ratios will also lead to formation of undesired sulfides, may be something simple to double check when using 2+ cations like Ba or Sr. According to another forum, Ba(NO3)2 compositions are slightly sensitive to shock.

Good luck!

[Edited on 13-4-2014 by weeksie98]

Texium - 13-4-2014 at 08:36

Quote: Originally posted by weeksie98  
Incorrect molar ratios will also lead to formation of undesired sulfides, may be something simple to double check when using 2+ cations like Ba or Sr.

[Edited on 13-4-2014 by weeksie98]


Ah, didn't even think about that. Would that mean that half of the calculated amount of nitrate would be used for the 2+ ones?
For example, if I were to prepare black powder using barium nitrate:
10 grams of normal KNO3 black powder would contain 7.5g of KNO3, or .074mol. .074mol of Ba(NO3)2 would be about 19.39g, but since it contains twice as many nitrate anions, I should actually use 9.69 grams, right? (Keeping the carbon at 1.5g and sulfur at 1g)

[Edited on 4-13-2014 by zts16]

Zyklon-A - 13-4-2014 at 08:49
Quote:
: Originally posted by weeksie98
Barium and strontium nitrate tend to burn more smokily.

Care to link a reference to back that claim?
It seems to me that Barium or strontium would produce much less smoke. This is only a theory, but consider this:
Only half the molar amount of group II nitrates will be needed for the same stoichiometry. Because All of the solid products contain potassium compound, this will be cut in half (by moles.)
The main solid impurity is K2CO3, the corresponding Ba salt is : BaCO3 - which probably decomposes at the temperatures that the reaction takes place. Thus producing more gasses and less solid material.


[Edited on 13-4-2014 by Zyklonb]

Estes rocket engines.

copperastic - 13-4-2014 at 11:32

Hi, Would i be able to use an Estes rocket engine attached to a stick for a firework? Also how could I launch fireworks if i live in an area were you need a permit?
Thanks

TheChemiKid - 13-4-2014 at 11:36

This would not be a stable projectile unless you add something to stabilize.

hyfalcon - 13-4-2014 at 11:37

Realize, what goes up must come down. If it comes down and does damage, then there's liability involved. Any fireworking must be done in a safe location. That means the countryside, not in the city.

hyfalcon - 13-4-2014 at 11:42

When you try substituting nitrates, check them for being hygroscopic. I know sodium nitrate is so dry it well before use and then don't store your firework long at all. Use it.

violet sin - 13-4-2014 at 12:08

certain fire works are aloud in my area, but none that fly, boom or shoot (roman candle). doesn't leave one much room but colors and spark showers. fine by me. but as far as I know there is no law against model rockets. any damages incurred by starting a fire in the miles and miles of dry grass, however will be punishable.

Zyklon-A - 13-4-2014 at 12:21

Quote: Originally posted by copperastic  
How could I launch fireworks if i live in an area were you need a permit?
Thanks

Get a permit of course. That is, if you want to do it legally.

Bert - 13-4-2014 at 12:34

This does belong in "beginnings" for now... Anything without a balanced reaction and referances or good lab notes does.

You need to know that Barium and Strontium nitrates have 2 possible decomposition reactions.

If you are not using a metallic high temperature fuel, you will not be able to use all the Oxygen.

Read on Oxidizers in Takeio Shimizu's Fireworks: The Art, Science and Technique. In the section on materials, you will find the possible decomposition reactions.



copperastic - 14-4-2014 at 05:19

I know but would the police be mad if i did it in the countryside? I am not 18 so I can't get a license.

hyfalcon - 14-4-2014 at 05:26

Private property with some acreage say 5-10 with permission of the property owner. This being said I don't know what part of the country you live in so your local ordinances may and will vary by state or county as the case may be.

Bert - 14-4-2014 at 08:27

1st off, unless we know what state you're in, we can't tell you what the laws are.

2nd, there is certainly an amateur rocketry group in your state. They will know non fireworks rocketry laws. Go here and look for a local group:
http://www.nar.org/NARseclist.php

3rd, the county or city/town you are in issues fireworks permits. Call your county clerk or city clerk, the same people issue the permits as take fees for any other permitted activity.

You will CERTAINLY need a permit inside an incorporated area (city, town). A few states do not require a permit, many do not require a state fireworks operator's license to use consumer fireworks.

Go here and see what local groups are in your area, contact them for information too.
http://www.fireworksalliance.org/cgi-bin/viewpage.pl?p=orgs

Zyklon-A - 14-4-2014 at 09:10

Quote: Originally posted by weeksie98  
Incorrect molar ratios will also lead to formation of undesired sulfides, may be something simple to double check when using 2+ cations like Ba or Sr. According to another forum, Ba(NO3)2 compositions are slightly sensitive to shock.

Yep, barium nitrate tends to be more sensitive to shock than potassium nitrate. Although simple stoichiometry can make the black powder nearly the same, it will be slightly off. The reason, I think is because the decomposition of KNO3 and Ba(NO3)2 require different amounts of energy, and the formation of BaSO4 and K2SO4 will give out different amounts of energy, and K2CO3 and BaO + CO2 respectively.

Bert - 14-4-2014 at 09:38

When making a statement on a property of a chemical or mixture, it would be nice to include a source atribution, a link to your source or some other expalanation of the information's source such as how you experimented and determined these properties?
Quote: Originally posted by Zyklonb  
Quote: Originally posted by weeksie98  
Incorrect molar ratios will also lead to formation of undesired sulfides, may be something simple to double check when using 2+ cations like Ba or Sr. According to another forum, Ba(NO3)2 compositions are slightly sensitive to shock.

Yep, barium nitrate tends to be more sensitive to shock than potassium nitrate.

Zyklon-A - 14-4-2014 at 10:39

That statement was guided only by my own personal experience. Barium nitrate flash powder is the only flash powder which I have successfully detonated via hammer test or other shock. (with the exception of chlorates and/or sulfur containing mixtures).

copperastic - 14-4-2014 at 11:50

Does anyone here live in Wisconsin and knows how to get a license?

Bert - 14-4-2014 at 14:05

1: See Shimizu's FAST p.319, 320 for drop hammer & friction tests of flash mixtures. I linked to this earlier.

2: Wisconsin has no state fireworks operator's license.

You pull the permit from town or city, in unincorporated areas, from township. You'll need to be 18 to pull a permit, parents will need to do that for you. Proof of insurance isn't required by state law, cities or towns may have their own requirement.

blogfast25 - 16-4-2014 at 04:50

I've got loads and loads of used printer rolls, OD 30 mm, H 55 mm, wall thickness about 2.5 mm. Genuine Kraft paper and seriously strong. Would these be of any value to a fireworks amateur?

Bert - 16-4-2014 at 10:32

The tubes are certainly useable for that purpose- Are they convolute or spiral wound? If convolute, these would be suitable for several other pyrotechnic uses as well.

blogfast25 - 17-4-2014 at 07:47

Quote: Originally posted by Bert  
The tubes are certainly useable for that purpose- Are they convolute or spiral wound? If convolute, these would be suitable for several other pyrotechnic uses as well.


Spiral, by the looks of it.

You think those dimensions could be attractive to pyrofolk?

Bert - 17-4-2014 at 08:19

Don't know how long they are, but amateur pyros are known to dive into trash dumpsters for a likely looking cardboard tube. I certainly did when I was new to the field!

Spiral tubes are usually reserved for reports, salute cases, firecrackers etc.

The spiral lap on the inside often allows fire to travel down the side of a pressed or rammed fuel grain and leads to a CATO , so these are not usually considered suitable for rockets, wheel drivers or similar uses.

Convolute tubes are chosen for rocket motors and similar applications.

copperastic - 17-4-2014 at 08:42

Is there a way to make an aerial salute shell thing (A hollow sphere at the top with black powder and stars And an engine at the bottom) Without it exploding because thats illegal in my city. Also has anyone made any fireworks that stay on the ground because thats all i could do in my city.

blogfast25 - 17-4-2014 at 09:04

Bert:

They are 55 mm long, 33 mm OD.

Bert - 17-4-2014 at 09:45

Quote: Originally posted by copperastic  
Is there a way to make an aerial salute shell thing (A hollow sphere at the top with black powder and stars And an engine at the bottom) Without it exploding because thats illegal in my city. Also has anyone made any fireworks that stay on the ground because thats all i could do in my city.


You're in Wisconsin, correct?

Look up these people, if your parents are OK with you learning pyrotechnic construction. They do hands on training at some of their meetings, and pull permits so members can use fireworks- ALL kinds of fireworks.

http://www.wpag.us

Additionally, the PGII convention is in Iowa this August. You will need to have your folks sign you up for that, if you'd like to attend. Lots of hands on classes there, and lots of open shooting for members.

http://www.pgi.org/convention/overview.php

In the meantime, the Shimizu FAST book I linked to explains aerial shell construction pretty well.

crazyboy - 17-4-2014 at 10:08

I rolled my own tubes out of printer paper, glue sticks or thinned Elmers glue works fine. (For rockets ~1.5cm ID)

copperastic - 17-4-2014 at 10:24

Thanks bert.

copperastic - 17-4-2014 at 11:14

Bert do you know how to join?

Bert - 17-4-2014 at 12:07

Quote: Originally posted by copperastic  
Bert do you know how to join?


The first step would be looking at the linked sites. Membership information is there-

class B fireworks

copperastic - 18-4-2014 at 06:21

Hi, I was reading this page http://www.wpag.us/shooters_cert.htm
and it says that you ca use class b fireworks. What are class b fireworks? I looked it up but found nothing.
Thanks
P.S. I posted this twice because i did it once in beginnings but it occurred to me that it should be in energetic materials.

Bert - 18-4-2014 at 07:28

Remember, free information on the internet is often worth EXACTLY what you paid for it!

--------------------------

Class "B" Special Fireworks is an obsolete US DOT classification, used for shipping papers and put on boxes or other outer packages of fireworks, the purpose being to let anyone who saw the item know what kind of a hazard it represented (like firemen or police approaching a crashed truck with the boxes spilled all over the road...) Fireworks people had the habit of calling all the larger fireworks that required a federal license "B". Older fireworks people still use the term, but it's not acceptable on shipping papers or packages anymore.

Hazardous material labeling is now standardized by the UN world wide, rather than each country having their own system.

The items formerly known as "B" are now called 1.3G Fireworks, or just "1.3" for short. Some of the larger shells and cases of bulk salutes are called 1.1G, and consumer fireworks anyone can buy without a federal license are 1.4G. (The obsolete US DOT term for consumer fireworks was Class "C").

When I fill out bill of lading, I refer to the professional grade display fireworks as:

UN0335 Fireworks 1.3G Packaging Group II

-or-

UN0333 Fireworks 1.1G Packaging Group II

copperastic - 18-4-2014 at 13:46



[Edited on 18-4-2014 by copperastic]

Bert - 18-4-2014 at 14:18

No.

Category 1 = explosives

.3 = Display Fireworks (no mass explosion hazard, fire hazard)

G = Compatability group (tells what other things it can't be shipped in the same cargo compartment with) For example, you can't ship high explosives (A) with blasting caps (B).



[Edited on 18-4-2014 by Bert]