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2) his liability for any problems resulting from our use of these more reactive, hazardous, etc, reagents is sufficiently low.

I suspect that this will be partuicularly problematical. We are a highly diverse group with varying levels of skill and laboratory training, operating in facilities ranging from primitive to sophisticated, pursuing experiments that can be cookbook to bleeding edge. Let's face it - we are risky in this regard, and there is little I feel that we can do to alter that perception when significant legal liability may be attached to these decisions.

Praxichys - 2-7-2014 at 08:58

@ DrBob

Correct me if I'm wrong, but let us use something reasonable, like 100g sodium azide through FedEx as an example.

http://images.fedex.com/us/services/pdf/HazmatShippingGuide....

This says it is a class 6.1 and is "Accepted only when packaged under applicable special permit or 49CFR 173.13"

So we look here at 49CFR 173.13:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2007-title49-vol2/xml/CFR-2...

And find that:

- The package need not be labeled externally and can travel on passenger aircraft if it meets § 173.27 (Not an issue)
- You can ship up to 6.25 pounds at a time, including innner packaging weight
- A bottle in a bag inside a padded cardboard box will suffice.

Pretty easy. It's exactly the same way I ship Hg metal. I think I'm missing something though... when do you need to take a class?

@ Magpie

And yes, getting Mr. Holm to do it would be nice, but I think a lot of us are capable of it ourselves and just don't realize it, unless I'm missing something big from the shipping perspective.

[Edited on 2-7-2014 by Praxichys]

[Edited on 2-7-2014 by Praxichys]

Dr.Bob - 2-7-2014 at 09:57

I am saying that the government (DOT) says that you have to be trained in order to ship under the exception rule, meaning, "No placards", for smaller samples, which can be hazardous, and would otherwise need to be labels with diamonds, and other paperwork.

What FedEx says is just their rules, and is dated 2009, I am certain that things have changed since then. If you miss a DOT rule, FedEx may not care, but the DOT can still arrest you. Their rules are a nightmare, and the DOT regs span several hundred pages, so they are not that easy, as well they often conflict each other (eg black powder can be shipped in some cases without paperwork, but in other cases it needs to be placarded). I ship certain hazardous items often (just not current in the small sample rules) and I can tell you it is not as easy as many people think or some Chinese companies act.

See FedEx's disclaimer below and the training info below that.

For instance, Sodium Azide is considered to be an explosive in some cases, and is thus has extra rules, like in car airbags, which have to be shipped specially. Also, the post office has additional rules, which mean chemicals are best shipped Fed Ex. Another example. certain fireworks can be shipped via FedEx, other cannot, but all are 1.4 items. Even odder if that there are a few 1.4 items that cannot be shipped FedEx, but CAN be shipped by the post office. It is safe to say that the rules are very complex.

----
here is their disclaimer, read it carefully:

"FedEx Ground Package Systems Inc. is committed to the safe transportation of hazardous materials. It is very important that each
person engaged in the transportation of hazardous materials become
thoroughly familiar with the Title 49CFR (Code of Federal
Regulations). This guide is intended only to assist you in your
preparation of hazardous materials shipped via FedEx Ground
Package Systems Inc. It is the shipper’s responsibility to ensure
each hazardous material package is in compliance with applicable
Department of Transportation (D.O.T.) regulations and FedEx Ground
Package Systems Inc. requirements. Failure to comply with these
regulations and requirements may subject the shipper and carrier to
fines and penalties.
Due to the changing nature of D.O.T. regulations and other information, it is impossible to guarantee absolute accuracy of the material contained in this guide. FedEx Ground Package Systems Inc., therefore, cannot
assume any responsibility for omissions, errors, misprinting, or ambiguity contained within this guide and shall not be held liable in any degree for any loss or injury caused by such omission or error presented in this publication.
The FedEx Ground Hazardous Materials Shipping Guide is intended to simplify Title 49 CFR. FedEx Ground Package Systems Inc. reserves the right to be more restrictive than the federal regulations (49 CFR). Customers should be thoroughly familiar with the applicable sections of this guide when shipping hazardous materials via FedEx Ground Package Systems In c. This guide reflects current dockets under final rule published on or before March 1, 2009."
-----

Training
Hazardous material training is required for all employees who perform a hazardous material function. It is the duty of each hazmat employer to comply with the training requirements listed in 49 CFR 172.704.
FedEx Ground offers hazardous materials training via the online
ShipSafe.ShipSmart. Hazardous Materials Training Program. The training
curriculum includes the following:
•Rules and Regulations (Ground Shipping only)
•Hazard Classes and Divisions
•Shipping Papers
•Packaging (Non-Bulk Only)
•Marking and Labeling
•ORM-D Classification
•Security Awareness
The course is available at www.shipsafeshipsmart.com and is payable by credit card only. The cost for the class is $150.00. A discount is available for groups of more than three students. To obtain a discount please call 1-800-762-3744, ext. 6753 or ext 5059
-----------------

MrHomeScientist - 2-7-2014 at 10:14

I appreciate you not getting defensive or anything regarding my post - I'm just trying to keep the safety of everyone involved in mind! Also any kind of 'shady dealings' like that only contributes to the bad press our hobby gets.

I also meant to mention the minimum quantity exceptions. Here's an excerpt from the CFR, section 173.4a, concerning quantities: (source: http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=165841281d11db03c72... )

Quote:

(c) Inner packaging limits. The maximum quantity of hazardous materials in each inner packaging is limited to:

(1) For toxic material with a Division 6.1 primary or subsidiary hazard, PG I or II—

(i) 1 g (0.04 ounce) for solids; or

(ii) 1 mL (0.03 ounce) for liquids;

(2) 30 g (1 ounce) or 30 mL (1 ounce) for solids or liquids other than those covered in paragraph (c)(1) of this section; and

(3) For gases a water capacity of 30 mL (1.8 cubic inches) or less.

(d) Outer packaging aggregate quantity limits. The maximum aggregate quantity of hazardous material contained in each outer packaging must not exceed the limits provided in the following paragraphs. For outer packagings containing more than one hazardous material, the aggregate quantity of hazardous material must not exceed the lowest permitted maximum aggregate quantity. The limits are as follows:

(1) For other than a Division 2.2 or Division 5.2 material:

(i) Packing Group I—300 g (0.66 pounds) for solids or 300 mL (0.08 gallons) for liquids;

(ii) Packing Group II—500 g (1.1 pounds) for solids or 500 mL (0.1 gallons) for liquids;

(iii) Packing Group III—1 kg (2.2 pounds) for solids or 1 L (0.2 gallons) for liquids;

(2) For Division 2.2 material, 1 L (61 cubic inches); or

(3) For Division 5.2 material, 500 g (1.1 pounds) for solids or 500 mL (0.1 gallons) for liquids.

And this is the overall section for transportation regulations: http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbro...

I had other links to the definitions of the different Classes and Packing groups, but they no longer work. I guess they've been updating the site and broke a lot of the links :/
You can see, though, that transporting and shipping HAZMAT is no easy task. I work with HAZMAT for my job with the government, so I deal with regulations for ordering, storing, and transporting this stuff on a regular basis. Even so, I feel like I know next to nothing about them.

[Edited on 7-2-2014 by MrHomeScientist]

Praxichys - 2-7-2014 at 12:39

Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist

I appreciate you not getting defensive or anything regarding my post - I'm just trying to keep the safety of everyone involved in mind! Also any kind of 'shady dealings' like that only contributes to the bad press our hobby gets.

I also meant to mention the minimum quantity exceptions. Here's an excerpt from the CFR, section 173.4a, concerning quantities: (source: http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=165841281d11db03c72... )

[snip]

I think the lesson here is that both naïveté and 'red tape' are often discovered to be much more extensive than expected.

It just so happens that I also work for a company that handles hazardous materials on a daily basis. I handle them daily but I am not involved with the shipping side of things; however, I think I can weasel my way into a FedEx hazmat shipping class just to get a handle on the situation. I need to talk to someone in the shipping department. It would probably be an eye-opener.

So really it would appear that the easiest method is to do what was suggested above and make your materials in-house, necessitating some sort of "compendium of common lab preparations" as a substitute for simply ordering stuff.

Magpie - 2-7-2014 at 13:15

Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys

So really it would appear that the easiest method is to do what was suggested above and make your materials in-house, necessitating some sort of "compendium of common lab preparations" as a substitute for simply ordering stuff.

Isn't this what we already have in "member publications" and Prepublication? Also we have a lot of good write-ups for syntheses that just haven't been formalized as such. Also there is Len1's book, which takes on some pretty hairy reagents IMO.

Dr.Bob - 2-7-2014 at 14:24

Another trick is to make salts of liquids like triethylamine or pyridine, often they are lower hazards, as liquids are almost always harder to ship. It is easy to free base the material then with NaOH, which is still easy to get. I don't mean to be a pain, I ship a lot of non-hazardous items and some special hazardous ones, but not often via FedEx, so the rules are different. No two places have the same rules or even the same interpretation of the DOT rules.

Bob

Discontinued Reagents

tomholm - 4-7-2014 at 07:14

Hi All,

Very interesting topic. Thanks for thinking of me.

Many interesting points mentioned. No question that obtaining and shipping some of these chemicals has gotten more difficult. I certainly concur that mislabeling packages or bringing in product illegally from another country is not a good idea. A quick list of consequences might be:

Personal liability for injury caused to innocent people - drivers, first responders, warehouse staff, etc.,
Possible jail time,
Serious fines,
Loss of shipping privileges,
Harmed reputation for all chemistry hobbyists,
Even tougher laws in the future.

(Sorry, but I’m also a lawyer and can’t help myself.)

Shipping chemicals properly is not easy. I’ve found that most of the big players have resorted to shipping any chemical that can possibly be regulated as a hazardous material as hazardous and do not attempt to apply the exceptions. It’s not worth it to them to do the time-consuming research to determine if there is an exemption and take the risk associated with getting it wrong. Thus, they charge hazmat shipping charges for all regulated chemicals, regardless of amount.

If you do want to ship hazardous materials using the commercial carriers, e.g. UPS, FedEx, etc., (USPS will not accept any hazardous materials), you are required to show proof of training and state that you understand and will comply with both the shipper’s and DOT regulations. This requires you to be able to follow and apply the regulations as presented in Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR). (Even with my legal training, I do not find this easy and sometimes think that they’ve made it difficult on purpose to discourage the shipment of hazardous material.) Additionally, you need to keep your training up-to-date with regular, certified, training courses.

Hazardous materials shipping charges can have a big effect on the total cost of delivering a product. We have to pay hazmat charges ($20-$30) on most inbound regulated chemicals. Some of these chemicals also have additional “poison pack” packaging fee ($15-$25). For chemicals that we stock, we purchase larger quantities and distribute these added shipping charges over multiple sales transactions. For special orders, we need to recover these hazmat and poison pack charges from the one sales transaction. Often, we need to pay these same hazmat and poison pack charges on outbound shipments to the customer, unless we are able to apply a hazmat shipping exemption. These additional shipping charges can add $15-$55 on each shipping transaction or a total of $30-$110 in additional shipping charges (in addition to standard shipping charges). Add in the cost of the product, often greater than $100 for small quantities of these hard-to-get chemicals, and it’s not uncommon for the cost of the product to exceed $225, even before Elemental’s profit margins are included.

Some of these chemicals are sufficiently dangerous or toxic, and require a higher level of training in order to safely handle the chemicals. For these chemicals, I do not want my employees handling them or re-packaging them in smaller quantities, so we would need to sell them in the same quantities in which we are able to purchase them.

Elemental Scientific is open to looking into some of these more difficult or discontinued reagents to see what is possible. That is, after all, what we are here for. We are willing to do things that the larger chemical distributors are not, in order to build customer loyalty. That said, I want to make it clear that we are not willing to break the law or risk our shipping privileges to make a sale. We also need to be compensated for our time and these types of transactions can be very time consuming, so we have to weigh the number of potential sales of each chemical.

If someone could take the lead and put together a list of these “hard to get” chemicals, I would be willing to look into the availability and shipping costs associated with these chemicals and post a reply on this site. I suggest that the list be limited to those chemicals where there is at least sufficient volume of potential customers to make it worthwhile (I understand that shipping costs may have an impact on this). A “popularity” ranking, indicating the potential number of customers for the product, would be helpful.

Look forward to all comments and Happy 4th of July to everyone!

Magpie - 4-7-2014 at 12:04

Thank you Tom for that informative and encouraging post!

To follow up on your suggestion I feel that we should each post the 5 chemicals that we would most like to buy. Then at some time in the future, say 2 weeks from now I could assemble a combined list and the number of individual requests for each reagent. I suggest that for each chemical a volume in ml or a weight in g be included.

I would hope that we each would use good judgement in our submittals. There is no sense in asking for something that Tom is obviously are not going to want to handle.

Magpie - 4-7-2014 at 17:10

Here's my list of chemicals I would buy right now if I could legally do so, assuming the price is within reason:

1. thionyl chloride, 250 ml
2. sodium borohydride, 250 g
3. carbon tetrachloride, 250 ml
4. phosphorus trichloride, 250 ml

Texium - 4-7-2014 at 20:32

I second you on the carbon tetrachloride and sodium borohydride for sure.

Loptr - 5-7-2014 at 06:46

You sure are raising the bar, @Magpie. I would be interested as well, seconding the condition they could be legally obtained.

prof_genius - 7-7-2014 at 01:58

Dose anyone know where I can get Uranyl acetate and depleted uranium in Poland or The Netherlands, or any company that ships there.

zenosx - 9-7-2014 at 18:27

I would say that it is possible to circumvent these legal liabilities by having disclaimers to the sale and use of said substances.

In the same way that tobacco manufacturers now circumvent lung cancer lawsuits, having similar disclaimers for the distribution of specific (if not all) chemicals that could cause potentially lethal harm to persons not physically able to properly handle them, could potentially make otherwise unobtainable chemicals available to the amateur, which would be any person not working in a professional laboratory setting.

2) his liability for any problems resulting from our use of these more reactive, hazardous, etc, reagents is sufficiently low.

prof_genius - 9-7-2014 at 18:43

I agree, a disclaimer like "(company name) is not responsible for any damage to health and property caused by their reagents, use at own risk!" would work.

mr.crow - 13-7-2014 at 10:57

Here's my list of chemicals I would buy right now if I could legally do so, assuming the price is within reason:

1. thionyl chloride, 250 ml
2. sodium borohydride, 250 g
3. carbon tetrachloride, 250 ml
4. phosphorus trichloride, 250 ml

Number 1 and 4 are pretty toxic and reactive which might be a problem.

I agree with some suggestions posted on another thread. Organic bases and lewis acids seems to be very hard to find

- Anhydrous aluminum trichloride (needs a serious bottle since HCl gas always leaks out)
- Triethylamine (or HCl form)
- Pyridine (or HCl form)

Thanks to Tom for supporting amateur scientists!

prof_genius - 13-7-2014 at 20:13

Shipping them in cans works(Aldrich dose it), and you could also seal them in plastic coated bottles(may cost a lot).

tomholm - 19-7-2014 at 07:35

Here's my initial analysis of the chemicals suggested. These are all special order so I can't give specific costs unless I have a better idea of how many can be sold and in what quantities. If you could give me a little better idea on numbers and amounts, I can check further into best suppliers.

thionyl chloride ___500 ml____Hazardous___ Hazmat Pack
sodium borohydride___500 ml___Hazardous____Hazmat Pack
carbon tetrachloride ____500ml____Hazmat Pack
phosphorus trichloride___250 ml___Can't be shipped by UPS or FedEx
Anhydrous aluminum trichloride (Aluminum Chloride Anhydrous)___Hazmat Pack
Triethylamine____Hazmat Pack
Pyridine____100 ml, 500 ml___Hazardous___Hazmat Pack

gdflp - 19-7-2014 at 07:47

Here are my suggestions,

Anthracene 125g
Oxalyl Chloride 250ml
Bromobenzene 250ml
Calcium Phosphide 125g

Magpie - 19-7-2014 at 08:08

Thanks tomholm! I'm just in awe that you have offered to do this. Perhaps some here are shy about expressing their needs in public. For those, U2U or email might be better.

I will add acetyl chloride, 250 ml, to my list.

tomholm - 19-7-2014 at 17:11

Here's my initial analysis of the chemicals suggested. These are all special order so I can't give specific costs unless I have a better idea of how many can be sold and in what quantities. If you could give me a little better idea on numbers and amounts, I can check further into best suppliers.

thionyl chloride ___500 ml____Hazardous___ Hazmat Pack
sodium borohydride___500 ml___Hazardous____Hazmat Pack
carbon tetrachloride ____500ml____Hazmat Pack
phosphorus trichloride___250 ml___Can't be shipped by UPS or FedEx
Anhydrous aluminum trichloride (Aluminum Chloride Anhydrous)___Hazmat Pack
Triethylamine____Hazmat Pack
Pyridine____100 ml, 500 ml___Hazardous___Hazmat Pack

mr.crow - 24-7-2014 at 20:45

Can we get in touch with you to special order these chemicals?

Another one to add to the list is oleum, SO3 dissolved in H2SO4

Special Order on Chemicals

tomholm - 25-7-2014 at 10:35

Can we get in touch with you to special order these chemicals?

Another one to add to the list is oleum, SO3 dissolved in H2SO4

I am putting together a list of chemicals with options on quantities and pricing for these special order chemicals. I had hoped to be finished today, but it will take a little more time. Please check back on an update in 3-4 days and I will hopefully have more info on how to order.

Thx.

Tom

Dr.Bob - 29-7-2014 at 05:03

I would suggest shipping the TEA and pyridine as the HCl salts. Both are easy to free base from the salts and that would convert them to much less expensive materials to ship, especially in smaller quantities, like 25g. Some of the others might be able to go under the small sample exemption if you get to a small enough amount, like 25-30 ml/g. The savings in shipping would still make it cheaper even if people wanted several small bottles.

Special Order Chemicals

tomholm - 4-8-2014 at 20:43

OK, Folks. I'm ready to try special orders for some of the hard-to-get, discontinued chemicals. [It's taken a little longer than I thought to pull it all together, so I apologize for that.] On the Elemental website, I've set up a category called "Special Order Chemicals" that lists 12 of the hard-to-get chemicals suggested within this thread. From here, you can place your orders for these chemicals.

To try to better manage the shipping costs, I've created the following procedures for how the orders will be processed. Please keep in mind this is our first attempt at this and I welcome any and all suggestions on how to make this work better. I'll also remind you that I will not be buying these in bulk, so pricing may be a little higher than we'd all like on some of the chemicals. I'm hoping that this goes well and I can improve on that in that future, depending on customer response.

Also see that I have defined a window to place your orders. I've set this first cut-off period to be near the end of August. Again, depending on how well this works, we could continue to place special orders on a monthly or quarterly basis.

Here are the instructions on ordering these Special Order Chemicals.

Note: Special Order Chemicals are not stocked in inventory and are ordered on a pre-determined and announced schedule. To reduce shipping and handling fees on these orders, the orders are held and processed at one time.

Discounts will not be applied against Special Order Chemicals. Other items ordered along with Special Order Chemicals will have the discounts applied as usual.

Orders for these chemicals must be completed prior to the scheduled processing time. At the scheduled processing time, the chemicals will be ordered from the supplier(s). After the chemicals arrive from the supplier(s), customer orders will be processed and shipped.

The next processing time for Special Order Chemicals is August 25, 2014.

Haber - 5-8-2014 at 02:34

I am not familiar with US laws, so is it actually illegal to buy sodium borohydride in the US? Or is it to expensive?

tomholm - 5-8-2014 at 07:15

Quote: Originally posted by Haber

I am not familiar with US laws, so is it actually illegal to buy sodium borohydride in the US? Or is it to expensive?

Sodium borohydride is OK. It's one of the 12 in the Special Order category. Phosphorus trichloride cannot be shipped via UPS or FedEx, so is not included. Here's a list of the 12 that are now available for Special Order:

Acetyl chloride 250 ml
Anhydrous aluminum trichloride (Aluminum Chloride Anhydrous 1 kg
Anthracene 100 g
Bromobenzene 250 ml
Calcium Phosphide 100g
carbon tetrachloride 500 ml
oleum, SO3 dissolved in H2SO4 20-30% Free 500 g
Oxalyl Chloride 250g
Pyridine 100 ml
sodium borohydride 250 ml
thionyl chloride 500 ml
Triethylamine 1 kg

Magpie - 5-8-2014 at 08:53

tomholm: I wish to thank you for making these reagents available for the home chemist! I never thought I would see the day when certain of these would be available.

I think that many of us are probably still in shock and think that there must be a catch somewhere. We may think that by buying them our name will be put on a list by some 3-letter agency. But, in reality, our names are probably already on those lists for buying acetone and HNO3.

Some of the prices are high. I realize that this is probably due to the small orders that you have to place and that you do not have the capability to repackage to smaller containers. This is unfortunate as many of our members barely have enough money to buy essential glassware. I'm hoping that those members that have the knowledge and skill to use these chemicals will also find a way save up some money and buy them.

Burner - 5-8-2014 at 10:02

Tom,

How will some of the items (e.g. Oxalyl Chloride & Thionyl Chloride) be packaged? I would hope that these would be glass ampules, but I do not know what facilities you might have to do that type of packaging. Any help would be appreciated!

tomholm - 5-8-2014 at 19:50

Tom,

How will some of the items (e.g. Oxalyl Chloride & Thionyl Chloride) be packaged? I would hope that these would be glass ampules, but I do not know what facilities you might have to do that type of packaging. Any help would be appreciated!

I expect glass bottles, but some of these are new chemicals for me, as well. I noticed the Oxalyl requires "refrigeration".

Loptr - 5-8-2014 at 19:55

I expect glass bottles, but some of these are new chemicals for me, as well. I noticed the Oxalyl requires "refrigeration".

A few of these items I would most likely repackage using safety coated glass bottles, such as those available from Qorpak, if they didn't already come in something similar. I am not interested in glass breakage, especially with things such as thionyl chloride. No thank you.

tomholm - 5-8-2014 at 20:32

tomholm: I wish to thank you for making these reagents available for the home chemist! I never thought I would see the day when certain of these would be available.

I think that many of us are probably still in shock and think that there must be a catch somewhere. We may think that by buying them our name will be put on a list by some 3-letter agency. But, in reality, our names are probably already on those lists for buying acetone and HNO3.

Some of the prices are high. I realize that this is probably due to the small orders that you have to place and that you do not have the capability to repackage to smaller containers. This is unfortunate as many of our members barely have enough money to buy essential glassware. I'm hoping that those members that have the knowledge and skill to use these chemicals will also find a way save up some money and buy them.

I guess I can't tell you how this is going to work out. We'll find out. All I can say is that, from my end, everything is being done above board. I expect members of this forum, as well as all of my customers, will handle these chemicals with care and use them for legitimate research purposes. If not, this is one experiment that will end very quickly.

Yes, unfortunately these chemicals do not come cheap. They require a lot of extra care in handling and there are not a lot of manufacturers and competition out there for many of these chemicals. That said, I did compare costs against other suppliers and feel that these are about the best I can do at this time. Hopefully, everyone will find a way to make this work.

I should also add that it is pretty difficult to accurately estimate hazardous shipping costs if multiple chemicals are ordered. Because of the combinations and the reactive possibilities between chemicals, shipping charges may need to be adjusted after reviewing a complete order. We would then let you know of any such adjustments. We'll need some flexibility here, but I've tried to indicate hazardous shipping charges when considering each chemical individually.

Thanks for all of your support.

Dr.Bob - 6-8-2014 at 05:18

Oxalyl chloride is best refrigerated. but does fine at room temp for a long time. I would not try to ship it cold. I would double bag it and ship in a metal can, but you likely have the shipping guides. Some of the amounts that you list are pretty large, like 500 ml thionyl chloride. I do chemistry for a living and have not used 500 ml of it in 10 years time. So it might be nice to have a smaller option, as that is an example of a chemical that will be hard to dispose of if you have too much. Same for 1 kg of AlCl3, it will absorb a lot of water before you can use that much of it. But it sounds like a great effort to help home chemists.

TheChemiKid - 6-8-2014 at 06:17

Would it be possible for you to add phosphorus (red), or some of its compounds (eg. Phosphorus Tetroxide or any of the Halides)?

careysub - 6-8-2014 at 06:26

Would it be possible for you to add phosphorus (red), or some of its compounds (eg. Phosphorus Tetroxide or any of the Halides)?

Elemental phosphorus (and all hypophosphorous compounds) are now controlled substances. Phosphorus halides are fair game though.

"On October 17, 2001, DEA published a Final Rulemaking (66 FR 52670) in which DEA added red phosphorus, white phosphorus (also known as yellow phosphorus) and hypophosphorous acid (and its salts) as List I chemicals."

http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/fed_regs/rules/2003/fr0624...

tomholm - 6-8-2014 at 07:33

Would it be possible for you to add phosphorus (red), or some of its compounds (eg. Phosphorus Tetroxide or any of the Halides)?

Some phosphorus can't be shipped via FedEx or UPS (e.g., Phosphorus trichloride). I'd have to take a closer look at some of the others. Also, I'm not sure I can find a supplier for Phosphorus Tetroxide. How much of a demand for these?

tomholm - 6-8-2014 at 07:45

Quote: Originally posted by Dr.Bob

Oxalyl chloride is best refrigerated. but does fine at room temp for a long time. I would not try to ship it cold. I would double bag it and ship in a metal can, but you likely have the shipping guides. Some of the amounts that you list are pretty large, like 500 ml thionyl chloride. I do chemistry for a living and have not used 500 ml of it in 10 years time. So it might be nice to have a smaller option, as that is an example of a chemical that will be hard to dispose of if you have too much. Same for 1 kg of AlCl3, it will absorb a lot of water before you can use that much of it. But it sounds like a great effort to help home chemists.

Thanks for the feedback. Unfortunately, I found that quantity selection is more limited in these chemicals. At this point, I prefer not to repackage into smaller quantities, so I'm kind of stuck with the quantities offered. Maybe I'll find some additional options in the future.

Magpie - 6-8-2014 at 07:53

I expect glass bottles, but some of these are new chemicals for me, as well. I noticed the Oxalyl requires "refrigeration".

I don't think we should expect tomholm to provide packaging that is above and beyond that in which these compounds are normally supplied. I have used thionyl chloride in a college OChem lab. It was in an ordinary looking brown glass bottle as received from the school's supplier.

I do agree wholeheartedly with the comments of Dr Bob about needing containers that are smaller, however.

[Edited on 6-8-2014 by Magpie]

Loptr - 6-8-2014 at 09:26

I expect glass bottles, but some of these are new chemicals for me, as well. I noticed the Oxalyl requires "refrigeration".

Magpie, I meant that I, myself, would repackage these items into more suitable containers.

After rereading my statement, it can certainly be taken in a couple of different ways. I do not expect, nor would I ask, for Tom to go above and beyond what he is already doing for us. I am very grateful.

Loptr - 6-8-2014 at 09:38

Quote: Originally posted by careysub

Would it be possible for you to add phosphorus (red), or some of its compounds (eg. Phosphorus Tetroxide or any of the Halides)?

Phenylacetic acid is List 1, along with Phosphorus and Hypophosphorous acid salts, and yet I seem to recall that it is used by the perfume industry. Thionyl Chloride is on the Special Surveillance list, along with 22 liter heating mantles lol (wikipedia). I recall seeing someone just recently selling "amorphous" phosphorus on eBay in small amounts.

It was my assumption, and it is not like I have spent any considerable amount of time researching this, that Listed was very different from Scheduled, and that Listed implied their intentional usage as part of a clandestine synthesis was illegal, and that only tighter auditing controls were placed on them.

I need to do some more research on this, however, as everything I have stated above is purely my opinion.

Magpie - 6-8-2014 at 10:24

[
Magpie, I meant that I, myself, would repackage these items into more suitable containers.

Yes, I did misunderstand you. Thanks for clearing this up.

Pyro - 6-8-2014 at 10:53

tom,
is there a possibility that you can buy certain things in larger quantities, repackage them and sell like that?
in larger quantities things are a lot cheaper so you would make more profit and provide lower prices,

heres an example from aldrich for benzene.
156302-250ML 12.80

156302-2.5L 49.00

156302-25L 245.00

I'm pretty confident i could ell it for more than 20EUR/l, in fact if I had a company I would order it today.

PCl5 should be less of a problem for shipping as its solid

tomholm - 7-8-2014 at 15:44

Quote: Originally posted by Pyro

tom,
is there a possibility that you can buy certain things in larger quantities, repackage them and sell like that?
in larger quantities things are a lot cheaper so you would make more profit and provide lower prices,

Because most of these requested chemicals are pretty hazardous and I don't have any idea of demand, I am not prepared to handle and re-package these chemicals. Perhaps it will make sense in the future, but for now, I don't intend to sell them in the quantities that I can purchase them.

DJF90 - 8-8-2014 at 08:42

Thionyl chloride is restricted under the chemical weapons convention. You will need an end user declaration to purchase it, but other than that it should be fine. Phosphorus and phosphorus chlorides come under the same scheduling, too.

chemrox - 8-8-2014 at 09:48

The American chemistry businesses have been taken over by lawyers. I suppose the root problem is DEA letters and phone calls exceeding their authority but fearfulness and lack of spunk in the industry is ultimately to blame. Fortunately the Chinese new capitalism has stepped in to fill some of the voids. Some of the better ones will work through paypal. Others will use escrow services. It's more work for sure. You may have to post your desires on a web site such as alibaba. From there you will get offers to purchase metric tons or tonnes of HaOH or whatever. Then your work begins. You have to make contacts with what seem to be likely prospects. Eventually, through persistence and a bit of intuition you will find you can purchase fine chemicals and weird salts. Don't discount the homegrown specialty market. In pure frustration with the lawyers I started making piperidones for self and a few others who are willing and able to pay the price. For some of these the devil is in the intermediates. It all makes me think I should start a chem company..but no, you have to maintain stocks. Try to find a lawyer-free environment. Help Shakespeare...the bastards ruin everything!

Magpie - 8-8-2014 at 10:38

Quote: Originally posted by DJF90

Thionyl chloride is restricted under the chemical weapons convention. You will need an end user declaration to purchase it, but other than that it should be fine. Phosphorus and phosphorus chlorides come under the same scheduling, too.

Hi DJF90. Would you happen to know if that requirement applies even to small quantities, ie, is there a size (ml or g) cut-off point?

TheChemiKid - 8-8-2014 at 10:46

Also, I'm not sure I can find a supplier for Phosphorus Tetroxide. How much of a demand for these?

I would be intereted in about 100-200 grams.

DJF90 - 8-8-2014 at 10:55

It should apply to any quantity. We have to fill out the relevant forms even for a 1L bottle

tomholm - 8-8-2014 at 12:57

Quote: Originally posted by DJF90

It should apply to any quantity. We have to fill out the relevant forms even for a 1L bottle

Are you speaking of US laws? I know Australia has laws similar to what you are describing, but I'm not sure about US.

TheChemiKid - 8-8-2014 at 13:44

Also, how do you place a special order?

tomholm - 8-8-2014 at 14:03

Also, how do you place a special order?

Just go to the web site, www.elementalscientific.net. Click on the "Special Order Chemicals" category to see the chemicals available. Complete the purchase the same way you would any other purchase. You can also add other, non-special order items to your order.

Just remember, your order will not be processed until after the special order date listed.

DieForelle - 9-8-2014 at 21:36

There's plenty of subtle misinformation here. I'm sure I'll miss something because I only skimmed the thread.

Why are some chemicals becoming hard to find? Partly because nobody uses them anymore. The east coast research lab where I worked in the late 1990s is gone. Work outsourced to another country. Academic labs still do what they do, but I suspect more and more chemical research is theoretical instead of bench top. Some people have implied on other threads here that if they had a contact in an academic lab stuff would be easy to get: maybe in some places it used to be that way, but not at most anymore. A friend getting a PhD at Berkeley told me that in his building at least, everything ordered from Sigma gets several eyes on it and there's absolutely no way he could get something unrelated to his research. I wanted something profoundly innocuous compared to what people are talking about here. OH BTW, a hobbyist chemical buying club...even if it had a business location and corporate entity...even if it had a Chem. Degreed "sponsor" would be laughed out of town by the major lab suppliers like Sigma, Fisher, Spectrum, et al. Maybe one of the 2nd degree resellers would at least talk to you. The fact is I've been interested in ordering hobbyist chemicals since I was in college in the mid 1990s, and many, many suppliers have come & gone. It just isn't a very profitable undertaking...or the risks undermine the profit severely.

Hazardous can certainly be shipped by USPS under exemption. I've gotten NaClO3 from fireworks suppliers that way. (Anyone from the EPA reading this forum has already had a stroke by now, so I'll just admit I was curious to try it as a weed killer. I have several acres and battling weeds is a constant annoyance. It used to be very popular in Europe. Turns out it kinda stinks, at least with our American weeds haha. I'll stick with roundup. It was fun to do the gummi destruction experiment. I got most of my "blowing stuff up" urges out of my system in HS & college. I might have related how we did the thermite reaction freshman year, and an old timer campus cop came along and said "what are you kids doing"...I think I was the only one who had a twinge of anxiety as I was probably the only one who was sober. He accepted our explanation that we were just doing an experiment - that was in the halcyon and innocent early 1990s. These days we would all have spent the weekend in jail and been expelled. We used our own supplies, not stolen from the chem. department although a couple of us were chem majors.) It's just that many sellers, and certainly the big lab suppliers, have no reason to hassle with it. If you're a university chem. department in the US, you have enough money with the tuition you're charging to pay hazmat fees. AND...some sellers (not the one on the thread, I guess) will say Fedex refuses to ship Hazmat to residences. Again, untrue. I've had FCC/USP grade HCl delivered to my house from a reseller. I had to sign for it of course, and the Fedex guy gave me a "what the hell are you doing with it" look. But - knock on wood - no DEA agents have come knocking at my door, at that was back around 2011. Which is so utterly stupid because anyone making drugs would just buy it at Home Depot...almost as concentrated. At the time I was experimenting with creating a shelf-stable predigested protein product. Acid digestion turns out to be a complete waste of effort. The right enzymes can digest almost anything to completion w/o pH modification.

DEA list chemicals are certainly not "controlled" in the same way hard drugs are. I once found a flavoring company perfectly willing to ship me a large amount (500g) of piperonal. But I didn't, because the DEA audits all such purchases and will certainly feel obligated to check out why you ordered a list I chemical. And make life difficult for you even if you do really want it for flavoring. SOME suppliers, like the major lab suppliers, now prefer to check that you have a DEA license before selling you a list I chem, but they are not obligated to do so. (and yes, at the time I was experimenting with flavorings and thinking of starting a flavoring company. As it turns out, nobody messes with the actual chemicals themselves anymore, except maybe McCormick. If you want to start a retail flavoring company these days, you just open an account with Givaudon or Bell...and I did with one of them...and tell them what flavors you want to market. They will send you a mix you can dissolve yourself with dilute EtOH...once you get over the hurdle of a TTB repacking license. But I could never get myself into the marketing, which is what it's all about anyhow these days. People buy for cute labels and slick websites, not for caring whether the ingredients are high quality or not.)

[Edited on 10-8-2014 by DieForelle]

[Edited on 10-8-2014 by DieForelle]

DieForelle - 9-8-2014 at 22:08

While I'm discussing this and I am still beset with insomnia...
there is the slightest, tiniest ray of hope in this era of insanity. (beside the helpful poster here who is willing to help people obtain the things already mentioned; I wouldn't want them in my neighborhood much less in my home, but it's a free country, darnit)

I notice Pharmco is letting Science Company in Denver sell a handful of their more innocuous solvents, on the Sci. Co. website, under their label. I was completely shocked. I guess they finally realized, geez, people are buying our stuff on ebay anyhow, why be so anal about it? I think for every ray of good news in the amateur chem. supply newsfront, there are 10 bad ones. So don't get too excited.

Texium - 9-8-2014 at 22:10

Quote: Originally posted by DieForelle

OH BTW, a hobbyist chemical buying club...even if it had a business location and corporate entity...even if it had a Chem. Degreed "sponsor" would be laughed out of town by the major lab suppliers like Sigma, Fisher, Spectrum, et al. Maybe one of the 2nd degree resellers would at least talk to you.

Um, yeah, that's sort of exactly what we're already doing... We're talking to Elemental Scientific and they're being really nice and doing everything they can to supply us with what we need. That was kind of the point of the majority of this thread.

DieForelle - 9-8-2014 at 22:13

"That was kind of the point of the majority of this thread. "

Well, somewhere else someone had acted like the primary lab suppliers would be cool with it. They would not.
It's <b>great</b> news elemental is helping you - believe me I have no objection to it - but I would call them a 2nd or 3rd tier supplier. Not that it really matters. As you can see I complemented them in my post that came a split second before yours. As I've posted before, if someone can get me SAFC (Sigma's food line) ingredients, under their label, do privately message me. Although I've kind of moved on from what I was doing a couple years ago. I just came here tonight because I was bored!

[Edited on 10-8-2014 by DieForelle]

[Edited on 10-8-2014 by DieForelle]

Magpie - 10-8-2014 at 10:45

Quote: Originally posted by DieForelle

Well, somewhere else someone had acted like the primary lab suppliers would be cool with it. They would not.

I believe that was in Pyro's post. He lives in Europe where for some reason(s) those primaries like Sigma and Fluka will sell to individuals (some countries). Maybe it's because they don't have the DEA lurking over their shoulder, or the citizenry is not so litigious.

mr.crow - 10-8-2014 at 19:35

I'm glad to see the special order chemicals are live on the website

Once again, is it OK to ship to Canada? I see two options, Hazmat packaging and Hazmat packaging/shipping. The packaging only one sounds like normal shipping with the special metal can inside.

tomholm - 11-8-2014 at 05:30

I'm glad to see the special order chemicals are live on the website

Once again, is it OK to ship to Canada? I see two options, Hazmat packaging and Hazmat packaging/shipping. The packaging only one sounds like normal shipping with the special metal can inside.

Yes, we can ship most items to Canada. Pretty much the same shipping guidelines.

You are correct on shipping charges. Hazmat packaging/"Poison Pack" has the extra can/layers of packaging that allows it to be shipped without the hazardous shipping charges (under an exemption). Cost is $17.50.

Hazardous packaging/shipping is the hazardous shipping charge. This too, often requires the additional packaging. Cost is $30.00.

We will try to combine as much as possible to save on charges. Unfortunately, very difficult to provide exact pricing until the entire order is analyzed.

Thanks.

Magpie - 11-8-2014 at 15:58

I did some research to see what requirements apply to Chemical Weapons Convention schedule 3 chemicals in the US. The only requirements I could find are shown here:

http://cfr.regstoday.com/15cfr714.aspx

Unless I have missed something it seems that the requirements apply only to manufacturers and import/export companies. And the cutoff-point is 30 tonnes!

Does anyone else know of any CWC requirements that would apply to Elemental Scientific or the US home chemist?

[Edited on 12-8-2014 by Magpie]

[Edited on 12-8-2014 by Magpie]

careysub - 12-8-2014 at 16:23

I did some research to see what requirements apply to Chemical Weapons Convention schedule 3 chemicals in the US. The only requirements I could find are shown here:

http://cfr.regstoday.com/15cfr714.aspx

Unless I have missed something it seems that the requirements apply only to manufacturers and import/export companies. And the cutoff-point is 30 tonnes!

Does anyone else know of any CWC requirements that would apply to Elemental Scientific or the US home chemist?

They wouldn't apply directly - but DHS regulations (derived in part from the CWC reqs) might.

Here is an interesting relevant document that contains summaries of discussion on possible regulation by the DHS. It does not look like they have yet translated into DEA-like sales restrictions, it has focused thus far on regulations for commercial chemical storage and transport where "large" amounts are involved:

http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/chemsec_appendixafinalrul...

Explosives precursors are regulated also by the ATF, and DHS regulation of ammonium nitrate in particular was enacted separately as part of an appropriations bill:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-110publ161/pdf/PLAW-110pub...

mr.crow - 14-8-2014 at 19:56

I get this message on the website

CP : Merchant CPC Id not found on server. (P206.5 W3 Z2)

5 Days Left to Order Chemicals

tomholm - 20-8-2014 at 15:39

Just want to remind you all that you have 5 days left to place your order for the special order chemicals listed on Elemental Scientific web site www.elementalscientific.net. Just complete your order as normal and I will process the orders on August 26th.

Thanks again.

mr.crow - 22-8-2014 at 11:57

Just want to remind you all that you have 5 days left to place your order for the special order chemicals listed on Elemental Scientific web site www.elementalscientific.net. Just complete your order as normal and I will process the orders on August 26th.

Thanks again.

I can't place any orders

I still get the error CP : Merchant CPC Id not found on server. (P206.5 W3 Z2)

It looks like something is fudged up with Canada Post's integration with your website. I would really like to get an order in.

[Edited on 22-8-2014 by mr.crow]

careysub - 22-8-2014 at 14:11

Maybe you could do a phone order.

Metacelsus - 22-8-2014 at 14:23

Is there any way of buying less than 1 kg of triethylamine? I want it, but I don't need and can't afford that much.

HeYBrO - 22-8-2014 at 14:36

Quote: Originally posted by Cheddite Cheese

Is there any way of buying less than 1 kg of triethylamine? I want it, but I don't need and can't afford that much.

Perhaps split it with a trusted member? that way you get as much as you need and pay less.

tomholm - 23-8-2014 at 13:33

Sorry. Looks like we are having trouble with processing sales to our Canadian friends. Please email or call order information to info@elementalscientific.net and we will process the order the old fashioned way. We can send a PayPal payment request if you would like to pay that way.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Tom

tomholm - 23-8-2014 at 13:41

Quote: Originally posted by HeYBrO

Quote: Originally posted by Cheddite Cheese

Is there any way of buying less than 1 kg of triethylamine? I want it, but I don't need and can't afford that much.

Perhaps split it with a trusted member? that way you get as much as you need and pay less.

If I split it into 500 g sizes would that work? Price would probably be around $65. I want to double check to see if it's something we want to be working with.

tomholm - 23-8-2014 at 20:02

Quote: Originally posted by Cheddite Cheese

Is there any way of buying less than 1 kg of triethylamine? I want it, but I don't need and can't afford that much.

I just added the 500g item to the system, so you should be able to order it that way now. Hopefully, it works out for everyone.

Thanks everyone!

Metacelsus - 24-8-2014 at 07:06

Great; I will buy it.

Loptr - 24-8-2014 at 08:23

Thank you, Tom!

I submitted my order this morning. Any approximate idea when this will ship out? I have an upcoming vacation.

tomholm - 25-8-2014 at 16:02

Thank you, Tom!

I submitted my order this morning. Any approximate idea when this will ship out? I have an upcoming vacation.

I intend to place the orders tomorrow morning. Typically, I would receive the order in approximately 1 week and should be able to turn the orders around quickly. Assuming no back orders, you should be receiving the products within about 2 weeks.

mr.crow - 25-8-2014 at 19:18

Thank you, Tom!

I submitted my order this morning. Any approximate idea when this will ship out? I have an upcoming vacation.

Awesome

I sent an email, I hope its not too late

Discontinued Reagents

tomholm - 26-8-2014 at 11:38

Thanks to all for participating in the first month's special order for chemicals. I've placed the order and it looks like I should be able to get most of the product in and re-shipped out in a couple of weeks. I did learn a few things from this process.

1. Thionyl Chloride is now on the Chemical Warfare Convention list for restricted chemicals. Furthermore, neither FedEx nor UPS will accept it for shipping. [Although FedEx had a mistake in their printed version of their Hazardous Materials Guidelines that indicated that it could be shipped as hazardous material.] As a result, I have removed that item from our list of Special Order Chemicals.

2. Because of logistics, I ordered some extra Pyridine and Triethylamine. Not much extra, but a little. So, if you would like to order some of those, I'll be able to fill that for a couple of more orders.

There were a number of chemicals that had been suggested and offered that nobody ordered. I'd appreciate your feedback on those as to whether it was not the right quantity or if the price was too high? Perhaps, I can look to see if I can make any adjustments on those. Here are the chemicals not ordered by anyone:

Acetyl Chloride
Carbon Tetrachloride
Anthracene
Oxalyl Chloride
Calcium Phosphide

I'd like to continue to do a monthly special chemical order. So the next order end date will be September 28th. I'll be updating the list of chemicals on the website. I'll be trying to offer smaller sizes on some, but can't guarantee it. Please submit suggestions for chemicals you'd like to see added to the list for the upcoming month and I can look into those for feasibility.

I continue to be open to suggestions on how we might improve this process, so I would appreciate your comments.

Thanks.

Tom

MrHomeScientist - 26-8-2014 at 12:51

It's probably been said before but I think it's worth repeating: it's really great to see a science supplier that not only caters to the amateur, but also participates in our forum and responds to our community's feedback! This special order thing is awesome. My special order request: tetralin. Nurdrage used it in the potassium synthesis and its density and reactivity are very favorable.

I think one of the reasons people were reluctant to buy some of these is the quantity. Most of us amateur chemists don't need kilograms or liters for most things. I think 500 g (mL) would make a good upper limit on quantity if you're able and willing to repackage.

Artemus Gordon - 26-8-2014 at 17:03

There were a number of chemicals that had been suggested and offered that nobody ordered. I'd appreciate your feedback on those as to whether it was not the right quantity or if the price was too high? Perhaps, I can look to see if I can make any adjustments on those. Here are the chemicals not ordered by anyone:

Acetyl Chloride
Carbon Tetrachloride
Anthracene
Oxalyl Chloride
Calcium Phosphide

Thanks.

Tom

I'm still a noob, so it will not be soon that I will want exotic reagents, but I am somewhat interested in CCl₄, because it once was a common chemical and several older home chemistry books mention it. However $229 for 500ml is way beyond my price point. I guess it is that high because it is high purity for spectroscopic purposes. Would it be possible for you to get lower purity for more like $15-30 for 500ml?

tomholm - 26-8-2014 at 18:10

Quote: Originally posted by Artemus Gordon

I will look around a little more, but CCL₄ is very expensive. Seems to go from $30 - $50/g. Even if I buy it in larger quantities, it's still well over $125 for 500 ml. I'm not sure purity makes much of a difference (or at least even a lower purity will not get to the price point you are looking for.) I see they even sell it by the ug. The EPA has determined that it is bad for the ozone. With such a high price, it seems that you are being strongly encouraged to find an alternative.

prof_genius - 26-8-2014 at 22:25

Try looking at companies in India like Thomas Baker.

DieForelle - 29-8-2014 at 05:39

T

1. Thionyl Chloride is now on the Chemical Warfare Convention list for restricted chemicals. Furthermore, neither FedEx nor UPS will accept it for shipping. [Although FedEx had a mistake in their printed version of their Hazardous Materials Guidelines that indicated that it could be shipped as hazardous material.] As a result, I have removed that item from our list of Special Order Chemicals.

Tom

So...I don't mean to be difficult, but explain something to me. If some research professor out there needs to use thionyl chloride, which is still definitely sold by lab suppliers and according to the wiki article, not particularly obscure, how in the world do they get it if Fedex & UPS won't ship it? I'm not saying I don't believe you, I'm just saying I find this baffling. Surely all kinds of dangerous things have a way they can be shipped, alkali metals, etc. In fact when I google it I see that you can order, in apparently unlimited quantity, special long life AA batteries that apparently contain it along with lithium. Though, given the reputation lithium batteries already have, I think I'd be afraid to leave a thionyl chloride/lithium battery inserted into a device anywhere near my house LOL.

Mailinmypocket - 29-8-2014 at 06:43

Some more specialized shipping companies will handle the more hazardous stuff. Where I work these things usually are delivered by Dicom Express. It probably is the same for the USA. They must use some other courriers

Loptr - 29-8-2014 at 09:45

Quote: Originally posted by DieForelle