Sciencemadness Discussion Board

DNP -A great fatburner

plasma - 26-11-2002 at 12:27

DNP is one of the strongest fatburning chemicals known. Bodybuilders and obese people use it to burn fat quick and easy. A dosage of 3mg/kg/day in 10 days is enough to burn 5 - 10 punds of fat. The DNP raises the bodytemperature with 1 - 2 degrees celsius.
The reason I write this is because I want to make DNP (DiNitroPhenol) and sell it on the black market. A nice way to make a few dollars (or NOK!). It would have been real nice if somebody could post a procedure for DNP. Obvously this chemical is very similar TNP (TriNitroPhenol). I do have a synthesis for TNP, would just using less nitrating micture do the trick. If so what are the ratioes ?

Thanks

Nick F - 26-11-2002 at 13:22

What?! You want to make DNP, and sell it to people with the intention that they should EAT it?!?!?! What happens when some clever guy thinks that if he has ten times the correct dose then he'll lose fat ten times faster? He'll DIE!!

Anyway (with the sincere hope that all discussion hereafter relating to selling it to people for them to eat is purely theoretical)... what isomer do you want? I'd guess that you're after either 2,4- or 2,6-, but the required isomer might have adjacent nitro groups for all I know.
2,4- and 2,6- are relatively easy to make, start by sulphonating phenol, then adding around 2.5 mol of HNO3 per mol of sulphonated phenol (in H2SO4). The product can be purified from other nitrophenols and sulphonated nitrophenols by fractional crystalisation, with the sulphonated nitrophenols being more water soluble than the corresponding nitrophenols, and less nitrated phenols being more water soluble than more nitrated phenols.
Now, the proportions of the 2,4- and 2,6- isomers depends to some extent upon the temperature at which the nitration is carried out. I can't remember off the top off my head which way round it is, although I THINK that a lower temperature produces more 2,6-. This will be very hard to seperate fully from the 2,4- to get your desired compound, assuming that the isomer actually matters.

If the isomer needed has two adjacent nitro groups, then things will be significantly harder... first you'll have to nitrate it twice, then reduce one -NO2 group to -NH2, then nitrate it again with a low excess of acids, then diazotise it, then react it with HCl and CuCl (in catalytic amounts. CuCl, NOT CuCl2. This is called the Sandmeyer reaction, to produce chloroarenes and remove diazo groups) to produce a -C(Cl)-C(NO2)-C(NO2)- phenol, then you'd have to try to make a Grignard out of this (which would be hard), and then react it with water to remove the -Cl. This is a VERY long procedure, and VERY low yielding, when you take into account the losses at each stage through side reactions and isomers that you don't want. There might be an easier way, but I'm not sure. I can't think of one. -OH is very strongly o/p- directing to electrophilic groups, more so than -NH2 which is more directing than -CH3, and in the nitration of toluene you only get about 4-6% m-mononitrotoluene.

Nick F - 26-11-2002 at 13:31

Actually, use a source of iodide ions not chloride ions (from HCl) in the Sandmeyer reaction. This way you won't need a catalyst and the Grignard will be easier to form.

madscientist - 26-11-2002 at 14:37

I'm not sure nitration is a clean enough route for preparing dinitrophenol suited for human consumption. Fractional crystalization probably would yield a product plenty sufficient for the purpose of chemical experimentation; but I think it likely wouldn't be pure enough for it to be safely consumed. Then again, for a 100kg person, the daily dose would be about 300mg, and I believe the lethal dose for picric acid is around 2g; so if the poisoning isn't cumulative and the picric acid is rapidly metabolized, impurities may be acceptable. Anyway, I think that you should be certain that your product is very pure. We're not used to considering a chemical to be "pure" when, in the world of medicine, in would be considered "so dirty that it's dangerous".

We're going to need to know just what isomer of dinitrophenol this is...

The challenge

Polverone - 26-11-2002 at 16:46

I think that it's pretty irresponsible and dangerous to sell homemade pharmaceuticals to the public. That said, it's a fun challenge. Explosives and poisons can have all manner of impurities and be just fine, but here the product really does need to be clean enough to eat.

I can see why this product is not sold via legitimate channels. Its potential for causing damage is high. I can also see why it's in demand. It can (according to the ever-reliable Internet) boost metabolism by up to 50%. Via these same ever-reliable Internet sources I have learned that the people who are selling the compound are charging as much as $40 a gram ($8 for a 200 mg capsule). This isn't much compared to the prices that recreational drugs command, but on the other hand you shouldn't need any watched chemicals or fancy techniques.

The isomer in question is plain old 2,4 dinitrophenol. The big question is how one would prepare it in a high state of purity. If I were a crazy man who bought homemade drugs from basement chemists, *I* wouldn't want any TNP in what I was buying.

US Patent # 1398998 has a process that claims high-purity production of DNP, but it starts with dinitrochlorobenzene ("dinitrochlorbenzol" in the terminology of the time).

Polverone - 27-11-2002 at 11:09

No, you don't sell them phenol for their skin, you sell them trichloracetic acid! You think I'm kidding? Look online for "trichloroacetic acid peels." Apparently there are many people who look more beautiful after their skin has been stripped away by acid. Plasma could start a whole cottage industry passing off hazardous industrial materials as health and beauty products. He'd probably have people flocking to his doorstep, too. Say, I recall reading in some textbook that Roman women ate small quantities of arsenic to enhance their complexions... Something worth thinking about, eh? ;)

madscientist - 27-11-2002 at 22:05

Can 2,4-dinitrotoluene be distilled at atmospheric pressure without serious decomposition problems?

If it can be, this may be a viable method of preparing 2,4-dinitrophenol of the purity required here, with relative ease.

2,4-dinitrotoluene would be oxidized to yield 2,4-dinitrobenzoic acid. The 2,4-dinitrobenzoic acid would be reacted with urea to yield 2,4-dinitrobenzamide. A Hofmann elimination would be performed to yield 2,4-dinitroaniline. That would be diazotized with nitrous acid to yield the desired 2,4-dinitrophenol.

PHILOU Zrealone - 26-2-2003 at 06:05

It is relatively simple to separate DNT isomers and MNT from TNT...steamdistillation, cristallisation, different melting points...
Anyway your procedure is OK madscientist!
Although I would do in the reverse way!
CH3-C6H5 -ox-> HO2C-C6H5
HO2C-C6H5 -urea/heat/glycol-> NH2-CO-C6H5 + CO2 + NH3
NH2-CO-C6H5 + Br2 + NaOH --> NH2-C6H5
NH2-C6H5 + HNO2 -ethanol boiling-> HO-C6H5
HO-C6H5 + H2SO4 conc --> HO-C6H3(SO3H)2
HO-C6H3(SO3H)2 + HNO3 (50%) --> DNP + a little TNP (simple separation at different pH- TNP is more acidic than DNP).

Because I'm not too keen heating DNbenzoic acid or amide!

vulture - 26-2-2003 at 13:58

Just a side note:

The reason why DNP boosts metabolism is because it makes the cellular membrane leaky to H<sup>+</sup> ions.
Normally, a cell uses its proton pump to achieve a concentration difference between the cytoplasm and the extracellular fluid. This concentration is used to transport other ions and to perform various cellular work.

When DNP makes the membrane leaky to H<sup>+</sup> the cell will have to keep constantly pumping protons to keep the metabolism running, because a cell which is in chemical equilibrium with its environment is a dead cell.
This uses lots of ATP which can't be produced fast enough to cope with the leak, so the cell starts metabolizing fatty acids.

Ramiel - 8-4-2003 at 22:46

So does TNP get motabolised by the body quickly, or does it build up?

madscientist - 9-4-2003 at 04:29

The body reduces the nitro groups, but nothing more.

dragons lurk here

Fenster_Karton - 20-5-2003 at 15:15

http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/DI/2,4-dinitrophenol.html says danger of cumulative effects.
A friend of mine in England said:The fact of the matter is that these are explosive compounds which apart from being downright dangerous to manufacture and store are also known carcinogens and are also known to cause severe liver damage and even failure in small dosages!
The nitro phenol group is an absolute nightmare to be exposed to and many of the armourments workers who were exposed to these compounds died horribly from their effects!
EPA says:
2,4-Dinitrophenol is used in the manufacture of dyes, wood preservatives, and as a pesticide. The acute (short-term) effects of 2,4-dinitrophenol in humans through oral exposure are nausea, vomiting, sweating, dizziness, headaches, and loss of weight. Chronic (long-term) oral exposure to 2,4-dinitrophenol in humans has resulted in the formation of cataracts and skin lesions, weight loss, and has caused effects on the bone marrow, central nervous system (CNS), and cardiovascular system. Limited or no information is available on the developmental, reproductive, or carcinogenic effects of 2,4-dinitrophenol in humans. EPA has not classified 2,4-dinitrophenol for carcinogenicity.

:o I would play with something safer like fuming nitroglycerine :D

Krypton - 21-5-2003 at 08:18

extract from my knowledge base.


1-hydroxy-2,4-dinitrobenzene called 2,4-dinitrophenol
are a slight yellow/white to beige crystals or
bundles of long needles and it`s a goods replacement
for other explosives than TNT, picric acid and other
nitrobenzenes. It`s chemical stable and
relative insensitive against shock and it can be
detonated by heat. A special attribute of 2,4-DNP is
the characteristic odour. Other applications
for 2,4-dnp are in laboratorys and chemical industry
as starting material to manufacture other chemicals
and explosives.

Synonyms for 1-hydroxy-2,4-dinitrobenzene are
2,4-dinitrophenol, 2,4-DNP, aldifen, chemox,
alpha-dinitrophenol, 1-hydroxy-2,4-dinitrobenzol,
dinofan, fenoxyl carbon, maroxol, nitro kleenup,
solfo black B , solfo black BB, solfo black 2B supra,
solfo black G, solfo black SB, tertrosulfhur black,
and tertrosulfhur PBR.

1-hydroxy-2,4-trinitrobenzene is very toxic
and can be resorbed by skin and large amounts
of the vapours can be cause acute poisoning.
The deadly limit is 2 mg/kg oral.

VULTURE?...this sounds scarily good until....

Hermes_Trismegistus - 29-11-2003 at 02:32

Biology isn't my best subject, but it sounds like this drug would be ideal (GRIN) in that it would be difficult for the body to maintain active homeostatic equilibrium.

in fact, it sounds like it might promote a semi-permanent increase of the Krebbs cycle.

but with the cells desperately metabolizing all the available fatty acids to keep cell integrity....

Wouldn' that interfere with the production of fat soluoble hormones secreted by the endocrine system proportional to the dosage taken? :(

unionised - 29-11-2003 at 07:41

If I were to ignore the moral issues and just wanted to sell fat burning drugs to the overweight I would buy DNOC (sold as a herbicide) and re package it (OK I might clean it up a bit if I was in a good mood).
The extra methyl group make no great difference to the function of the molecule and both the compounds are similar in hazard and effect (DNOC is more effective but more toxic IIRC)
Of course both of them are suspect carcinogens and they both f**k your liver, but if I were going into this business I would just have to ignore that.

guaguanco - 1-12-2003 at 15:00

Quote:
Originally posted by plasma

The reason I write this is because I want to make DNP (DiNitroPhenol) and sell it on the black market. A nice way to make a few dollars (or NOK!).

Thanks

A nice way to send some people to the hospital, you mean. And if you don't have experience doing nitrations, it's a great way to send yourself to the morgue.

unionised - 1-12-2003 at 15:30

It's a petty point, and I don't want to be seen to agree with the morality of selling these compounds but, the target market for these materials will end up in hospital anyway and all of us will end up in the morgue sooner or later.
Plenty of the matters discussed on this site will; if you are careless, foolish, or just unlucky; kill you.

Morality.....the need to instill overt order on a random system. While covert mayhem is rewarded, encouraged and absolutely necessary to keep our system functioning.

Hermes_Trismegistus - 2-12-2003 at 00:37

I am with Unionised on this one...

I might not like to see him selling that crap to chubby twelve year olds at the local public school.

But Hey!

any adult buying pills off of Plasma:D is taking thier life in their hands

but.....people do what people do....and if somebody wants to stuff crap down their own throat..... I say...so be it!

I don't feel I have the authority to tell them they can't, and while the gov't might think so...

I think its between them and Plasma.

Do what you do...
Get what you get...

If somebody shuffles off this mortal coil a little sooner because they lived a life of danger....

as long as they knew the risks, and make their own choices..

the fact is people like to live dangerously but when they get close to the edge...

NO body wants to die, working in a hospital I seen 90 year old women who's whole universe was clinging onto just one.....more...... breath.


The fact is, everybody lives like they're invincible when they are healthy

when they get sick they try and stay healthy....

if they get better they start abusing their bodies again...

its ridiculous...

Its all absurd

everybody's terrified of dying but almost everybody lives like they're invincible and the fact is.....

But the fact of the matter is this

you can live like a saint and die at 100

or drink rotgut vodka, smoke unfiltered ciggarettes and speed without a seatbelt and die at 45

No matter what you do, when you get to the end, it always seems like it all went by in the blink of an eye.

all your plans, most you never did.
all of your dreams, they never came true.
all of your hopes, maybe one or two.

nobody gets out alive.....NOBODY


SO if they wan't to stuff some shit into their bodies (courtesy of Plasma) and take the risk of popping off at 57 from renal failure instead of cardiovascular failure.....Its not a tradgedy.

Its a choice.

Its freedom at its best.

It is No big thing

Our lives slip by in the blink of an eye anyway.

and anyone who's really depressed by that thought hasn't come to terms with the human condition yet.


p.s.

I am not trying to come off like a tough guy here though....I know (from seeing other people) that when the last hour comes....I will be terrified and whiney and needy and pathetic just like everyone else.

Life is absurd.

Death is inevitable......and absurd.

TextBlack

unionised - 3-12-2003 at 15:29

Of course, it wouldn't be fair to sell them the stuff and tell them "it's perfectly safe".
I'm all for freedom of choice, but it should be an informed choice.

Armalite the Eternal - 4-12-2003 at 09:40

Indeed Hermes, life is short, pointless and for the vast majority of living things, excruciatingly painful. Self-destruction that brings the most joyous pleasure from the knowledge that you are destroying nothing is the only diversion worth anyones time.

philosophizing

Magpie - 4-12-2003 at 23:25

Hermes, related to your theme, I must quote:

"... Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player, that struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more: it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." - from Macbeth

"To philosophize is to learn to die." - Cicero

"What is so terrible about dying?" - Nero (as he was being hunted down)

Quid me nutrit me destruit - That which nourishes me also destroys me

Hermes_Trismegistus - 6-12-2003 at 18:58

Death is not extinguishing the light; it is putting out the lamp because dawn has come.
--Rabindranath Tagore

Too much Poetry, Philosopy and Riddles!!

chemoleo - 6-12-2003 at 19:30

sorry, forgive my lack of imagination, but that constant philosophising and word play is more distracting than anything else, I find it hard to follow a decent discussion in any of the recent threads... so hermes_trismegistus pls pls take it easy!!! it's kinda disrupting, at least to me. forgive my lack of poetic abilities/understanding... but thats not what the forum is about anyhow!

PS you write seemingly huge messages, and it's a pain to sort them out if you have to think about every line three times! And how many lines did you write!!??!!!

[Edited on 7-12-2003 by chemoleo]

.....and the good of the many shall supersede the rights of the few...

Hermes_Trismegistus - 6-12-2003 at 23:42

Terribly sorry chemoleo, for expressing opinions and thoughts that offend your sensibilities.

It was my understanding that this board promoted

"THE ART AND SCIENCE OF AMATEUR EXPERIMENTALISM"

Philosophy, moralism and ethics might seem out of place to you, in a board that's dedicated to science.

However, I am not a Vulcan, and sometimes subjects come up that aren't strictly technical.

I have made contributions that are probably more ART than SCIENCE.

I have posted comments that are probably neither ART nor SCIENCE, but still fall under the broad catagory of intelligent and open discussion.

Most of my posts are science related, and all strings I have started are directly related to sci/technology.

if not chemistry (which seems to dominate this board)



Maybe I do ramble a bit,

:P

Still, if a little off-topic discussion keeps you from making sense of my posts, please.......see a doctor! you may have A.D.D. and in the meantime...try to keep from chasing any blinking lights or bits of loose string!:D

If my posts are too long for you...try having a potty break in the middle and maybe a little nap time!

If my posts are gramatically incorrect, try to spell them out phonetically(FOE_NET_EEE_CAL_EE!)

Oh.....YA!..I'm sorry..I forgot about your little problem with all those big words..

(HORRENDOUSLY=bad)

----------

pls.pls.pls take all my snotty comments in the spirit of gentle ribbing they're meant in..

I don't intend to seriously insult you!

I do appreciate your posts clarifying my string about STRING THEORY.

You are obviously a very intelligent person.
----------

I put so many line breaks in because an sys-administrator heckled some guy about a lack of them. and the same-sys admin U2U'ed me about multiple posts in a row so I just stick em all in a single note.


IF..(in the future) something bothers you about my posts.....U2U...4ME...EH?..OK?

You can send the message collect and I'll pick up the charges!:P


:P:P:P Live long and prosper... :P:P:P
*******************************
Reading the prior posts about DNP..suddenly something came to mind.

I remember making this stuff a long, long time ago.

We got the recipe from a book detailing the manufacture of a primary explosive from simple chemicals (aspirin and HSO4 and what not) that was alleged to have been put out as a field expedient explosive for agents of the CIA.

I am not sure I beleive this.....but the reactions certainly were spectacular and violently expthermic.

The neatest thing was immense volumes of red gas given off(which I now beleive were Nitrogen Dioxide)

considering the volume of it we made (a plastic garbage bin was our reaction vessel)

I am suprised we aren't dead.

As I remember it was BRIGHT (almost fluorescent) yellow needles that stained the hands so yellow I had to tell people I broke a highlighter in my pocket.

I handled a LOT and am still alive but no matter how many times I tried to dry it, I couldn't get it to stop leaking yellow fluid.

but hey, if we two fools could make it in quantity, without proper equipment, in a kitchen, in a couple hours, with OTC chemicals....I am sure you could....

but there is no DAMN way I can see you convincing ANYONE to put that glowing yellow crap into thier mouth....it fricking LOOKED like TOXIC WASTE!!!


****please note***
for legality, please note that this synth took place in a country where the synth was lawful and allowed.
(and in another decade)
((and entirely in my mind))

[Edited on 7-12-2003 by Hermes_Trismegistus]

chemoleo - 7-12-2003 at 00:30

yepp, maybe you DO ramble a little VERY bit :D:D so watch it!!!
other people have to read it and make sense of it, but more than 2000 pixels of linebreaks and one line sentences dont help!! (just see how everyone else does it, it's quite simple really, seriously! you dont need 2000 pixels!)

To answer your questions - i dont have any of those accused problems with grammar, spelling or phonetics, or at least so I think.... and I have only seen a doctor when I burned my face :D ... but thankfully it didnt get to my brain so I am pretty sane (maybe I should write poetry just like YOU do!)

But you are right in one thing, I DO need a nap. Nonetheless, please take it easy, I sincerly like to read *readable* threads.... but, after all, thats only my petty opinion, who is to know what the world of Pyromaniacs thinks?

[Edited on 7-12-2003 by chemoleo]

A conversation swim(really) had with his schizophrenic self

Hermes_Trismegistus - 20-2-2004 at 23:37

€ How to make DNP:

€ 50g Benzene
€ 5gm mercuric nitrate
€ 300g nitric acid (50%)
€ Stir, heat to 50C for 5 hr.
€ 500ml cold water, chill
€ filter DNP out, wash with water and dry.

€ Now:
€ add:
€ 500ml water
€ 20gm lye
€ filtrate
€ HCl until acidic
€ Chill, filter, water wash & dried.

€ PS: Most of you will blow yourselves up doing this.


I don't know the mechanism but there is a reaction called oxynitration where an aromatic
compound reacts with mercuric nitrate and concentrated nitric acid and the product
contains both hydroxy and nitro groups. In the case of benzene the products are 2,4 DNP or
2,4,6-TNP (picric acid, KABOOM!!)depending on the reaction conditions.



Right, but how are you going to control which position the nitro goes onto? ortho-para, or all. OH is one of the highest activating groups you can put on
a benzene and no matter what you are going to get some TNP. I wouldn't even try this one!

The oxynitration
reaction will always give you a mixture of di and tri nitrated phenols. However there is a wide enough difference
in solubility in water between the di and tri that the di can probably be pretty selectively crystallized out
in water. Even if there is a few percent of tri (picric acid) nitrated impurity left I don't think it
will be a terribly dangerous thing (compared to taking DNP itself) anyway.

aspirin, a fat burner?

Polverone - 26-5-2004 at 21:56

From the 9th edition of The Pharmacological Basis of Therapeutics:
Quote:
Salicylates stimulate respiration directly and indirectly. Full therapeutic doses of salicylates increase oxygen consumption and CO2 production (especially in skeletal muscle); these effects are a result of salicylate-induced uncoupling of oxidative phosphorylation. The increased production of CO2 stimulates respiration. The increased alveolar ventilation balances the increased CO2 production, and thus plasma CO2 tension does not change.

[....]

The uncoupling of oxidative phosphorylation by salicylate is similar to that induced by 2,4 dinitrophenol. The effect may occur with doses of salicylate used in the treatment of rheumatoid arthritis and can result in the inhibition of a number of ATP-dependent reactions. Other consequences include the salicylate-induced increase in oxygen uptake and carbon dioxide production described above, the depletion of hepatic glycogen, and the pyretic effect of toxic doses of salicylate.


So, aspirin may stimulate metabolism in a manner similar to 2,4 DNP, and do so at doses still in the "therapeutic" range? How interesting.

chemoleo - 27-5-2004 at 20:46

Well it looks like aspirin is the magic drug!

1. It lessens pain by inhibiting prostaglandine synthesis, and thus reduces inflammation/swelling
2. It lessens formation of plaques in blood vessels, thus lessening arterial/cardiovascular disease (anti-coagulant)
3. It acts as an anti-cancer agent by partly preventing tumorigenesis
4. It enhances the metabolism by permeabilising the mitochondrial membrane, thus leading to greater energy consumption --> less fat ---> less cardiovascular/blood pressure problems
5. It is the greatest cure known to date against hangovers
6. Plus, some studies show that it prolongs life (probably because of the effects pointed out above)

Some time back I decided to take 300 mg aspirin every day. Lets see what effect it has 50 years in the future ... if this forum still exists then :D

fvcked - 28-5-2004 at 01:31

That would explain me losing a few pounds during the past couple days. My diet and excersise have stayed the same but I have had a back pain so Ive been taking an aspirin a day. Lost something near 10 pounds... :D

froot - 8-6-2004 at 07:53

Thanks to you guys my girlfriend and her family are now popping an aspirin every morning! :D
I'll keep you updated. :cool:

Polverone - 8-6-2004 at 10:54

Keep in mind, the doses used to treat arthritis are high compared to those normally used for relief of temporary pain. It is at these higher doses that my references mention metabolism-boosting effects. Aspirin can thin the blood, and its half-life can increase at high doses, so be aware of the risks.

unionised - 8-6-2004 at 14:30

I'm sure I saw an article saying that aspirin was the latest addition to the "gender bending" chemicals.
Hardly suprising given that it blocks prostaglandin synthesis (where did prostaglandin get its name?).

chemoleo - 8-6-2004 at 15:19

Hmm, that would be surprising. Reference?

Anyway, prostaglandins arent specifically produced in the prostate gland, much rather, in virtually every cell of the body. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostaglandin .

As to its 'gender-bending' property - I doubt this would occur at ordinary concentrations/exposure times, else the media would be screaming all hell lose by now!

unionised - 17-6-2004 at 10:51

Sorry for the delay, it took me a while to find this
http://www.nature.com/nsu/040517/040517-14.html
I'm suprised the media are not baying for blood, I guess they are just getting bored of this sort of thing.
By the way, tomatos have rather high salicylate levels.

nitroboy - 14-1-2005 at 02:42

Would nitration of sulphonated acetasallacyllic acid tp produce trinitrophenol be useful for the weightloss, or does it have to be the DInitrophenol ?

sparkgap - 16-1-2005 at 05:07

Methinks not. What exactly do you mean by your "sulphonated acetasallacyllic acid ", heating oleum with aspirin?

In any case, that *PRODUCT* won't let itself be nitrated that easy, having two (three?) groups preventing that from happening.

Going from 2,4 dinitrophenol to picric acid is s*%##y, but doable.

Just my two cents worth. (^_^)