Sciencemadness Discussion Board - UK plans stricter controls on poisons and explosives

UK plans stricter controls on poisons and explosives

Dr.Bob - 7-8-2014 at 13:04

Yet more new restrictions on chemicals in the UK, and maybe all of Europe soon.

UK plans stricter controls on poisons and explosives

"The UK government plans to bring in new laws that will tighten regulations around selling chemicals classed as ‘poisons’ or ‘explosives precursors’ to the general public.

Under the new changes, any individual who wants to buy any of the restricted chemicals – which include seven chemical precursors to explosives, and various poisonous substances – will need to apply for a licence first, to prevent harmful substances falling into the wrong hands...."

rest of article in link below:

http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/2014/08/sale-poisons-explo...

Artemus Gordon - 7-8-2014 at 13:22

"nitric acid – for which they have recommended an overall ban"

Yet one more argument for permanently banning from public office anyone who has not passed Chemistry 101, or whatever the UK equivalent would be.

Bert - 7-8-2014 at 15:37

If the (formerly) United Kingdom is willing to return to a hunter/gatherer level of existence... They could make acquiring chemicals somewhat challenging for the average sciencemadness.org member.

If they want a modern industrial society with such niceties as agriculture, soap, hot & cold running water and electric lights- Not even challenging.

Manifest - 7-8-2014 at 16:15

For fuck sake, I better stock Sulfuric Acid and Potassium Nitrate.

Is this going ahead or is it likely that it will?

[Edited on 8-8-2014 by Manifest]

The_Davster - 7-8-2014 at 18:12

plante1999 - 7-8-2014 at 18:18

1984's English Socialism in action. (Picture over this post is a reference to that book)

[Edited on 8-8-2014 by plante1999]

Pyro - 7-8-2014 at 21:34

before that rule comes in im buying a few hundred liters of HNO3,
the place where i went to buy my current 5l made me a bulk offer, 5l was the minimum.
then i can distribute it among other chemists (for a smal price

)

100l of 60% HNO3 would cost me 200eur

DJF90 - 7-8-2014 at 21:41

I think anyone who opposes this should comment on the rsc post, particularly those of us in the UK. Its probably the most authoritative place we can express our views. Whilst the aricle mentions "hobby" chemists, it is not clear whether it is the author that aknowledges us, or (unlikely) the home office. I find it unpleasant and concerning that we'd have to apply for a license (yet the government squeezing more money out of us!) to obtain "stockroom chemicals". Moreover, whats to say they'd even grant a license for "hobby" use.

Manifest - 8-8-2014 at 01:28

This is very sad, Nitric Acid and Hydrogen Peroxide and many other chemicals they want to eradicate are already strictly controlled.
Where on earth can you buy Nitric Acid OTC? My source of Sulfuric is Drain Cleaner at B&Q and I buy potassium Nitrate online.

This could potentially set an end for our hobby for those of us in the UK, they are not fighting terrorism, they are fighting a non-existant boogie man.

forgottenpassword - 8-8-2014 at 01:32

I can see no mention in the EU regulations of anything except nitric acid, nitromethane and hydrogen peroxide. From my reading of it, it appears that lower concentrations of all three shall be unrestricted, but those wanting higher concentrations will need a license to buy them. This applies to the whole of the EU.

I don't know where the author got the following from:
"Retailers... will have to monitor transactions of another eight explosives precursors including acetone, sulfuric acid and potassium nitrate, and continue to report suspicious activity."
There is no mention of these items in the EU regulations. I don't know what 'monitor transactions' means in this context, but it Is clearly something different to the reporting of suspicious activity.

[Edited on 8-8-2014 by forgottenpassword]

Manifest - 8-8-2014 at 01:43

Why are they restricting acetone? Are they still afraid idiots are making Acetone Peroxide?

forgottenpassword - 8-8-2014 at 01:51

That would be the obvious assumption.
I have no idea where the author got that from. I can't imagine that a license would be required to buy acetone.

[Edited on 8-8-2014 by forgottenpassword]

Manifest - 8-8-2014 at 02:24

That article is misleading, I read both the EU changes in regulation and the UK Home Office consultation and it neither mentions acetone nor Sulfuric Acid.

[Edited on 8-8-2014 by Manifest]

forgottenpassword - 8-8-2014 at 03:10

Yes, it seems that those are the 7 that will require a license in the UK. The first 3 from the EU regulations, and the other 4 applied by the UK government.

If I read it correctly, even with a license, no one in the EU will be able to buy:

Hydrogen peroxide above 35% w/w
Nitromethane above 40% w/w
Nitric acid above 10% w/w

(Businesses and institutions excepting).
From here on the EU regulations:

3. Notwithstanding paragraphs 1 and 2, a Member State may maintain or establish a registration regime allowing the following restricted explosives precursors to be made available to, or to be possessed or used by, members of the general public if the economic operator who makes them available registers each transaction in accordance with the detailed arrangements laid down in Article 8:
(a) hydrogen peroxide (CAS RN 7722-84-1) in concentrations higher than the limit value set out in Annex I, but no higher than 35 % w/w;
(b) nitromethane (CAS RN 75-52-5) in concentrations higher than the limit value set out in Annex I, but no higher than 40 % w/w;
(c) nitric acid (CAS RN 7697-37-2) in concentrations higher than the limit value set out in Annex I, but no higher than 10 % w/w.

[Edited on 8-8-2014 by forgottenpassword]

Manifest - 8-8-2014 at 03:20

I don't care about Nitromethane but as long as the Nitric Acid and Hydrogen peroxide are cheap they can be easily concentrated.
Hydrogen Peroxide - Simply evaporate off water to concentrate.
Nitric Acid - React with Potassium Carbonate to give Potassium Nitrate and from there react with Sulfuric Acid.

arkoma - 8-8-2014 at 07:02

Commented

macckone - 8-8-2014 at 08:00

If nitric acid becomes regulated then build your own birkeland-eyde
reactor. Chlorates and perchlorates are relatively easy to make.
And hydrogen peroxide is likely to still be available in low concentrations.
Concentrating hydrogen peroxide is a bear however.
Sure it is more work to start from first principles but we are scientist.
Unless they outlaw copper and electricity, you can make nitric acid.

roXefeller - 8-8-2014 at 13:14

This would be why, when my friend wanted to flee South Africa, he said 'screw it' to the commonwealth and came to America. Not that liberty is all that great there either.

[Edited on 8-8-2014 by roXefeller]

Scr0t - 8-8-2014 at 14:42

This is just the UK coming into alignment with the new EU regulations as was discussed here.

Quote:

Where on earth can you buy Nitric Acid OTC? My source of Sulfuric is Drain Cleaner at B&Q and I buy potassium Nitrate online.

In the UK there is a relatively large eBay supplier that presently sells azeotropic HNO₃ and conc. H₂SO₄ too. I however avoid buying nitrates and make them from the tonne of CAN I bought some years ago.

Woelen mentioned in another thread that CAN has been replaced with a AN/(NH₄)₂SO₄ mix in recent years but I think with a bit of effort we can still get nitrates/HNO₃ from it.

In my country I can't buy anything better than 30% glow fuel anyway as an OTC source of nitromethane, although I can import it from the UK, the "glow fuel" has been sufficient however.

H₂SO₄ and KNO₃ might be under annex II, not sure about acetone. I think this just means they come under closer/greater scrutiny.

Pity about the H₂O₂ though but there are other home made oxidants that can cover some of it uses and if in a pinch one can concentrate the weak stuff. It's a pain in the arse of course.
---

A point of concern though is that while we may be able to circumvent these measures with some effort we may be labelled as criminals and prosecuted for simply possessing such things without a license.

strontiumred - 11-8-2014 at 11:04

Hi Folks,

These changes have been on the table for over three years now and there was a chance to have your say during the consultation phase.

There are THREE pieces of legislation which will affect UK hobbyists:

1) The Control of Explosives Precursors Regulations 2014. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014/1942/contents/made
This bill has passed and will become effective on September 2nd 2014.

The following chemicals will become restricted, you will need a licence to BUY them above the concentrations stated:

Hydrogen peroxide >12% w/w
Nitromethane >30% w/w
Nitric acid >3% w/w
Potassium chlorate >40% w/w
Potassium perchlorate >40% w/w
Sodium chlorate >40% w/w
Sodium perchlorate >40% w/w

NOTE: It will still be legal to OWN and USE these materials until March 2nd 2016. After that date you will need a licence to OWN or USE them.
Licences will cost £39.50.

The following chemicals will not require a licence, but "suspicious" transactions will be reported:

Hexamine
Sulphuric acid
Acetone
Potassium nitrate
Sodium nitrate
Calcium nitrate
Calcium ammonium nitrate
Ammonium nitrate

2) The Explosives Regulations 2014: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014/1638/contents/made
This bill has passed and will become effective on 1st October 2014.

Doesn't affect me because I don't do energetics - [but read it if you do as the 100g exemption is still in place for demonstration purposes but with strict conditions!]

3) Poisons law overhaul:

As far as I can tell this has not yet been passed [UK parliament now out for summer recess]:
Consultation document: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm...

The aim was to have two groups of chemicals like with The Control of Explosives Precursors Regulations above.

Following would need a licence:

Aluminium phosphide
Arsenic; its compounds (other than those specified in List 2)
Barium, salts of, (other than compounds specified in List 2)
Bromomethane
Chloropicrin
Fluoroacetic acid; its salts;
fluoracetamideHydrogen cyanide; metal cyanides, other than ferrocyanides and ferricyanides
Lead acetates; compound of lead with acids from fixed oils
Magnesium phosphide
Mercury, compounds of, the following: - Nitrates of mercury ; mercuric cyanide oxides; mercuric thiocyanate; ammonium mercuric chlorides; potassium mercuric iodides; organic compounds of mercury which contain a methyl group directly linked to the mercury atom
Oxalic acid [Boo Hiss - I like this one!]
Phenols (phenol; phenolic isomers of the following cresols, xylenols, monoethylphenols) except in substances containing less than 60% weight in weight of phenols; compounds of phenols with metal, except in substances containing less than the equivalent of 60% weight in weight, of phenols
Phosphorus yellow
Strychnine; its salts in quaternary compounds
Thallium, salts of

The following would not need a licence but "suspicious" transactions would need to be reported:

Aldicarb
Alpha-chloralose
Ammonia
Arsenic, compounds of the following: Calcium arsenates, copper acetoarsenite, copper arsenates, lead arsenates
Barium, salts of the following: Barium carbonate, Barium silicofluoride
Carbofuran
Cycloheximide
Dinitrocresols (DNOC); their compounds with a metal or a base
Dinoseb; its compounds with a metal or a base
Dinoterb
Draxoxolon; its salts
Endosulfan
Endothal; its salts
Endrin
Fentin, compounds of
Formaldehyde
Formic acid
Hydrochloric acid
Hydrofluoric acid; alkali metal bifluorides; ammonium bifluoride; alkali metal fluorides; ammonium fluoride; sodium silicofluoride
Mercuric chloride, mercuric iodide; organic compounds of mercury except compounds which contain a methyl group directly linked to the mercury atom
Metallic oxalltates [sic]
Methomyl
Nicotine; its salts; its quarternary
Nitrobenzene
Oxamyl
Paraquat, salts of
Phenols
Phosporic acid
Phosphorous compounds, the following: Azinphos-methyl, chlorfenvinphos, demephion, demeton-S-methyl sulphone, dialfios, dichlorvos, dioxathion, disulfoton, fonofos, mecarbam, mephosfolan, methidathion, mevinphos, omethoate, oxydemeton-methyl, parathion, phenkapton, phorate, phosphamidon, prirmiphos-ethyl, quinalphos, thometon, thionazin, trizophos, vamidothion
Potassium hydroxide
Sodium hydroxide
Sodium nitrite
Thiofanox
Zinc phosphide

NB! I am not a qualified lawyer. Despite my best intentions the information provided may be incorrect. Please check for yourselves!

Best wishes,
SR

DJF90 - 11-8-2014 at 23:14

It would be nice if they made people aware before/during the consultation phase... and if they did I must have completely missed it. The lists you provide - where did you find this information? There is nothing that I can find that says a license will be granted for hobby use, which I find concerning.

plastics - 12-8-2014 at 02:56

Quote: Originally posted by DJF90

It would be nice if they made people aware before/during the consultation phase... and if they did I must have completely missed it. The lists you provide - where did you find this information? There is nothing that I can find that says a license will be granted for hobby use, which I find concerning.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm...

Page 5 government response to economic/administrative issues

'The government is of the view that licensing will allow legitimate home users to purchase Part 1 poisons and to continue their activities where there are no suitable alternative chemicals'

plastics - 12-8-2014 at 03:11

Quote: Originally posted by plastics

Quote: Originally posted by DJF90

More info here

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/precursors-and-p...
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/licensing-for-hom...

Above paragraph appears in both poisons and explosive precursors consultations

[Edited on 12-8-2014 by plastics]

packetforger - 26-9-2014 at 16:19

Some or all of these have gone through.

At work we are probably going to consult a lawyer, to see if we need to apply for a permit. I am the one in the office responsible for handling/ordering chemicals (chemistry work is not part of our main business, but is an important part of some of our research) as we go through a LOT of 70%+ nitric acid and other listed materials :/

woelen - 28-10-2014 at 00:22

In the Netherlands we now also have an official law, which restricts the sale and use of explosives precursors. It is called "verordening 98/2013". Full text can be found here (for people who understand dutch):

http://register.consilium.europa.eu/doc/srv?l=NL&f=ST%20...

Apparently, the basis for this regulation already is laid in 2008.

The well-known precursors (nitric acid, hydrogen peroxide, nitromethane, chlorates and perchlorates) are mentioned, but some additional chemicals are added to this "verordening", being hydrochloric acid, sulphuric acid, acetone, hexamine, and a series of nitrate salts.

A permit system will be introduced in the Netherlands. Cost of the permit itself will be zero, but costs made to get the paperwork done (e.g. making photocopies, getting a declaration of good behavior, costs of sending documents by post) are to be paid by the applicant. Estimated cost is appr. EUR 30 per year. It is not really clear to me what criteria there will be for granting the permit. The document states that it is expected that 100 to 200 people will apply for a permit each year (in the Netherlands) and it is expected that nearly all of these permits will be granted. A permit will be valid for a period of two years.

If the above rules about permits are true, then the new regulations will not be an instrument for prohibiting the use of these chemicals, but for getting much more precise insight in what kind of people use these chemicals. Let's hope that indeed the permit-system allows people to use these chemicals and that indeed permits are granted. I have not yet found a place where I can apply for such a permit, but I expect such a place to become available online.

Magpie - 28-10-2014 at 08:48

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

The document states that it is expected that 100 to 200 people will apply for a permit each year (in the Netherlands) and it is expected that nearly all of these permits will be granted. A permit will be valid for a period of two years.

This sounds like good news for you Woelen, at least relative to what's happening to our members in the UK. I am glad to hear this as I think it would be a real shame if you had to abandon this hobby which you so obviously love. This would also be a huge loss as you are of great benefit to not only this forum but to chemistry education in general.

WGTR - 28-10-2014 at 18:56

I am quite encouraged to read that the situation looks more positive for you than it did before. I've always enjoyed looking through the various experiments that you have posted on your website. All I can do is watch the goings on in the EU from my perch on the other side of the world, and hope the situation improves.

woelen - 5-11-2014 at 09:56

It seems like the situation is not much better than in the UK. A dutch company, selling HNO3 and H2O2 is willing to help its customers to obtain a license and they have had contact with the dutch government. The reaction was 'positive', but the company was told immediately that nearly no permits will be granted. The decision is made solely by some government expert, and it is expected that this expert will deny nearly all requests for a permit.

For people, able to read dutch here is the link to the above-mentioned company:
http://www.werkenmetmerken.nl/nl/nieuwe_regelgeving_watersto...

I do not expect that 'scientific experiments' will be sufficent reason to grant a permit.

The rules will be effected at Januari 1, 2015.

phlogiston - 6-11-2014 at 14:05

Interesting.
I wander if the government employee judging the applicants has a well defined set of rules by which he/she makes the calls. I think 'scientific experiments' qualifies very well as a purpose for which no other suitable chemicals are available. Its much better then 'etching' for instance.

When applying for a permit, would you need to specify which of the regulated chemicals you need to use, or does the permit allow all of them?

Also, does holding a permit involve regular inspections of your premises? Then you would need make very certain to comply with environmental laws, "arbowet" (Dutch law regarding occupational conditions), etc.

jock88 - 6-11-2014 at 14:51

Yes, etching indeed!.
You can purchase Ammonium Nitrate (Calcium Ammonium Nitrate) in ton lots for making grass grow thick and green.
No doubt each and every ball (prill) will be placed diligently onto the grass field and will be seen and documented to have been placed onto the grass field (and the person will wait until the ball has dissolved) by a suitably qualified government official.

I seen a great product in my local agri supply store made my ECO Labs (LOL) some time ago.
A mixture containing Nitric and Sulphuric acid for cleaning milking machines. I don't know the %'s.
No doubt a government official will see that each and every ml of the product.......

Little_Ghost_again - 10-11-2014 at 12:57

My mum now owns a BIOTECHNOLOGY company, mainly so I can continue to make soap and learn chemistry, however I have some bad news for people thinking that buying these chemicals with a license in the UK is going to be easy.
We have just brought 1 litre of conc Nitric acid using the company details etc, we used a well known supplier and sent all relevant company information, they emailed back a form....................
On the form it asks for what purpose you want the acid, we tried many different versions of general reagent, carrying out X,Y,Z experiment and each was met with a refusal to supply. Even with a license you must state the exact intended purpose for the chemical, if you say you want Nitric acid for X reason and actually use it for something else you commit an offense.
So in the UK even with a LTD company getting chemicals isnt that easy anymore. Also my dads lab at the uni he works part time has been refused Hydrogen peroxide because the form they sent in with the order gave reaction vessel cleaning as a reason for use. It was refused on the grounds that the reason wasnt specific enough.
Its a major concern when a top UK uni starts to get problems ordering chemicals, the stupid thing is my dad went to see our GP (Doctor) who wrote him a prescription for 30% hydrogen peroxide (5 litres) and he brought it for the lab at llyods the chemist, he only had to wait 48 hours for them to get it.

Etaoin Shrdlu - 10-11-2014 at 13:10

Really glad I don't live in the UK right now. Sheesh.

JAVA - 11-11-2014 at 06:06

The EU regulation is very strict, the reason that this new regulation is made (unilateral by EU) is one incident that was caused by Breivik. He would like to see to the world how easy it is to make a bomb and kill many peoples. The EU did respond on that, way too fast.

The majority of terroristic chemical attacks aren't a result of a crazy psychotic man, they buy chemicals on multi-tonnes scale, I have no money to buy these rockets at all and, I'm not crazy.

Ok, but if I read the current EU article they mention that this is legal
3% (m/m) H₂O₂ (not even more concentrated)
very diluted nitric acid
diluted nitromethane

These are the most important chemicals that are listed.

Nitric acid is a very common reagent, however you can buy calcium nitrate in huge amounts and let it react with sulphuric acid or phosphoric acid to get concentrated HNO₃

Political decisions are taken very rapidly (this is one example), they don't think about the consequences: it get on the black market very rapidly and fuel the orginized crime. This is the result of this EU-regulation but they don't understand it and don't listen to us.

Yes, exceptions are possible if the country request it, e.a. to protect retailers.

DrMario - 11-11-2014 at 08:35

I think calcium nitrate is also made illegal (along with sodium and potassium). I remember this, because at first I thought it was ridiculous to ban such incredibly hygroscopic substance (totally useless as an explosive).

JAVA - 12-11-2014 at 09:52

Quote: Originally posted by DrMario

I think calcium nitrate is also made illegal (along with sodium and potassium). I remember this, because at first I thought it was ridiculous to ban such incredibly hygroscopic substance (totally useless as an explosive).

AFAIK, you can buy KNO₃ and NaNO₃ in EU but there is a quota (I don't know exactly how much but too much for a hobby lab). I'm just back from Asia they are boosting because they don't have those rules. Money counts in Asia, I did hear >100 times a day the word Money.

I was in east-Java to rebuild a house from the old Dutch colonies. It looks awesome. Since they don't can pay a doctor, you can buy everything without prescription but they deliver just a small amount not in a box. Again, money counts right there.

I would like to show my development work on Java, in the thread "Who I'am" if I have more time.

Calcium nitrate is brownish because it's hygroscopic, it's not a problem with sodium nitrate or potassium nitrate.

Java

DrMario - 12-11-2014 at 11:00

Quote: Originally posted by JAVA

Quote: Originally posted by DrMario

AFAIK, you can buy KNO₃ and NaNO₃ in EU but

I'm not talking about the present situation, but the new rules that have been decided and are about to be implemented beginning next year.

woelen - 13-11-2014 at 00:22

I do not know of rules which prohibit sale of KNO3 and NaNO3 to individuals in the EU. According to the new regulations, the compounds, which may not be sold anymore (and may not be possessed anymore after March 2, 2016) are HNO3, H2O2, CH3NO2, KClO3, NaClO3, KClO4, NaClO4, at concentrations above certain limits. In the Netherlands, apparently, these new regulations become effective at January 1, 2015. All EU countries MUST have implemented the new regulations within 18 months, counting from Sep. 2, 2014. After these 18 months, sales AND possession of these chemicals is forbidden without a license. The UK enforces the rules from Sep. 2, the Netherlands seems to have these rules at Jan. 1, 2015.

Little_Ghost_again - 13-11-2014 at 12:39

The main point is being missed, yes you can get a license, but you have to list EVERY use you will use the chemical for, IF you are found to do something else with it then you break the law, so you cant just say I want hydrogen peroxide to clean aerobic bio chamber, we tried that and it was rejected, we were asked what the bio reactor was for, when pushed on it the company (apcpure) stated that if we put dairy vessel cleaning on the form and then used it to clean say a ethanol vessel then we break the terms of the license.
Woelen is better placed to tell how most of the EU is going to respond but the UK has gone way above what the actual legal requirement is.
The problem is going to be getting hold of the chemical, the problem is the actual license itself, in the UK it isnt a case of having a license to posses the chemical, but the license also dictates what the chemical is used for. Every time you use it for something you didnt declare you have to change the details, the chemical supplier then decides if this is a good reason/use.
From what I have seen with 3 separate companies in the UK, even LTD companies are finding it really hard to get hydrogen peroxide 30% for some normal uses, the chemical companies are really frightened in the uk that if they dont comply 110% then they will be in serious trouble, so they even now before the real rules take effect we are seeing a over the top reaction.

NOW lets look at the other side of it

Policeing it

The local police around where I live have been honest and said that unless they had significant evidence we were making weapons then they dont have the time or manpower to go looking around people labs, they also pointed out that every time they raid a lab it costs them £1500 in costs for the expert witness to come with them.
The police budget is so crushed in the uk that our local police hardly patrol now because of fuel costs, they wait for a 999 call then respond.

Interesting to see how other EU countries are applying the rules, I doubt the UK will be in europe within the next 3 years anyway

phlogiston - 23-11-2014 at 15:17

Just imagine the amount of manpower/money involved only processing application forms.

If we are lucky, they will realise sooner rather than later that this is an extremely ineffective way to combat terrorism in terms of "injuries/deaths prevented per euro spend", given the very large number of perfectly reasonable reasons someone might want to have some of these chemicals and laboratories and industries that use them.

[Edited on 23-11-2014 by phlogiston]

woelen - 24-11-2014 at 00:08

And this is exactly the problem. The answer to this problem will be that no permits will be granted. Every request simply will be denied. That is very cost-effective. No time needed to investigate the personal background of the person and to investigate the validity of the indended use. I can even imagine that the process of denying requests can (and will) be automated so that costs are reduced even more.

IrC - 4-1-2015 at 13:18

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

And this is exactly the problem. The answer to this problem will be that no permits will be granted. Every request simply will be denied.

Which is the same thing as stating the UK is outlawing home science. At what point do the citizens of the UK (and the EU in general) begin to wonder whether or not their own government has become more freaking insane than the terrorists? The link below is exhibit A as an example of the mindless lawmaking in question.

http://www.infowars.com/uk-government-crafts-anti-terror-pla...

Praxichys - 6-1-2015 at 06:45

Quote: Originally posted by DrMario

It is likely banned because it could be used to make nitric acid or other nitrates.

Ca(NO3)2 + K2SO4 --> 2KNO3 + CaSO4 (insoluble, just filter)

Ca(NO3)2 + (NH4)2SO4 --> 2NH4NO3 + CaSO4 (same method)

[Edited on 6-1-2015 by Praxichys]

BJ68 - 6-1-2015 at 20:49

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

And this is exactly the problem. The answer to this problem will be that no permits will be granted. Every request simply will be denied. That is very cost-effective. No time needed to investigate the personal background of the person and to investigate the validity of the indended use. I can even imagine that the process of denying requests can (and will) be automated so that costs are reduced even more.

@Woelen

Would it be possible to go to court (Court of Justice of the European Union)?
Art 13 http://www.europarl.europa.eu/charter/pdf/text_en.pdf says:
[...]Article 13
Freedom of the arts and sciences
The arts and scientific research shall be free of constraint. Academic freedom shall be respected.
[...]

Bj68

macckone - 6-1-2015 at 21:12

It does seem the laws governing certain chemicals are at odds with the EU charter. Not being in Europe I am not sure how that works in court.

woelen - 7-1-2015 at 02:47

Quote: Originally posted by BJ68

I do not expect anything from that. They will say that scientific research is not done at home, but only at suitable labs, or by companies who have a certain interest in the subject, or by universities and maybe some schools. Only official institutions and registered companies will be accepted.

unionised - 7-1-2015 at 05:02

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

Quote: Originally posted by BJ68

The existence of this forum (and others like it) shows that research is sometimes done at home.

Praxichys - 7-1-2015 at 09:18

Quote: Originally posted by unionised

The existence of this forum (and others like it) shows that research is sometimes done at home.

Unfortunately, the existence of this (and other forums) also shows that the chemicals in question can be (and often are) used to easily and illegally manufacture drugs and explosives. Further, a few members have been seriously injured or killed in such endeavors.

I do agree that we appear to be stunting early educational growth and curiosity in the name of public safety, but an argument like this to a non-chemist is a foregone conclusion.

One wonders what youth will be like in 50 years.

When my grandfather was in school, the teacher made nitroglycerin.
When my father was in school, he played with mercury.
When I was in school, I dissected a fetal pig.
My youngest cousin just "dissected" a frog "virtually" on a computer, because knives are dangerous. Chemistry consists of paper puzzle pieces with polyatomic ions written on them, rearranged on the table. Because beakers could break and injure someone, I guess.

[Edited on 7-1-2015 by Praxichys]

Brain&Force - 7-1-2015 at 15:41

Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys

I do agree that we appear to be stunting early educational growth and curiosity in the name of public safety, but an argument like this to a non-chemist is a foregone conclusion.

One wonders what youth will be like in 50 years.

When my grandfather was in school, the teacher made nitroglycerin.
When my father was in school, he played with mercury.
When I was in school, I dissected a fetal pig.
My youngest cousin just "dissected" a frog "virtually" on a computer, because knives are dangerous. Chemistry consists of paper puzzle pieces with polyatomic ions written on them, rearranged on the table. Because beakers could break and injure someone, I guess.

The safety culture here at UCSD is better, but not much.

Even grad students can't synthesize things like TATP here or use mercury for experiments.

I'm trying to get some lab space for shooting video but I haven't really been successful.

franklyn - 9-1-2015 at 09:03

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=54269&...

Dave Angel - 4-7-2015 at 10:01

I've been out of the hobby for a while (due to innocuous, irrelevant reasons) and I've just learnt about this. So it seems the thin end of the wedge has been driven in a little further. I keep telling myself I'll get round to my projects one day and I'm really starting to wonder if such days are numbered.

From the relevant gov.uk page:

Quote:

"After 3 March 2016, it is an offence to possess or use a regulated substance without holding a valid EPP licence issued by the Home Office.
If found guilty of this offence, there is a maximum penalty of 2 years’ imprisonment and/or a fine."

strontiumred already posted the regulated & reportable lists. I'd already been operating under the paranoia/assumption that anything mildly interesting would be reported, so it's the former list which is of greatest concern. No more possession of nitric acid - unless you stick to experiments requiring 3% or less. In reality, one could minimise risk of arrest and manufacture what nitric acid etc. is required at the time and dispose of excess, but you'd still be breaking the law.

Personally, I've quite enjoyed being able to operate legally (in spite of the potential lack of societal acceptance) and this has left me wondering whether I should dispose of / react materials so I only have what is permitted, or take the risk and hold on to them, hoping that no one ever comes knocking.
Or do I try to apply for the license...?

What do my fellow UK chemists think?
What do you intend to do with your stocks?
I know you've all got a little conc. nitric knocking about...

aga - 4-7-2015 at 15:01

This poses a serious difficulty in Law.

Amateur chemists already had the chemicals, and now a Law has been passed to make it illegal to possess them.

They were not obtained with illegal intent, at a time when their possession was legal, and the Amateur did nothing illegal with them in the meantime.

Where, in any sense of Justice, did the Amateur Chemist commit wrong-doing ?

This new Law violates the principle of Legal Possession.

I propose a new Bill making possession or use of a Car illegal.

Anyone found with such an illegal item shall have it consficated by the Crown, to be subsequently disposed of by Lawful Auction in Germany (all proceeds to be also absorbed by the Crown).

This Law will prevent many deaths and will halt terrorism in it's tyre tracks.

Those in favour say Airee !

Vote Aga as Supreme Global Dictator.
You know it makes sense.

Zombie - 4-7-2015 at 21:37

I'll give you my vote IF you give me homes in every country I wish, and enough beer, and cash to fill one room each, in each house.

Also you can't allow anyone to pester me for my beer. And I want a cool lamp. One that has the oil that drips down fishing string, and some black light posters. I like the one with the panther on the orange background the best. The "Born to be Wild one is cool too.

I'll also need maids for each house, and a way to get to each house. Maybe a kind of large-ish plane. That needs a room of beer too.
If I think of more I'll call you.

Airee Bumbaclot!

Edit:
Rolling papers... Lots of rolling papers...
And lighters.

[Edited on 7-5-2015 by Zombie]

Little_Ghost_again - 8-10-2015 at 03:19

Quote: Originally posted by Manifest

For fuck sake, I better stock Sulfuric Acid and Potassium Nitrate.

Is this going ahead or is it likely that it will?

[Edited on 8-8-2014 by Manifest]

I wouldnt do it! The punishment for possession is pretty harsh, start a LTD company pay tax (thats what they are after) and keep a list of things you have done with it, people think you can just own it with a permit or if your a company.
This is not true, you have to account for it as well. Lucky enough in the uk the police are now so under resourced they will be tied up with going after the legal high brigade next may.

Scr0t - 14-10-2015 at 14:44

Quote: Originally posted by aga

This poses a serious difficulty in Law.

Amateur chemists already had the chemicals, and now a Law has been passed to make it illegal to possess them.

They were not obtained with illegal intent, at a time when their possession was legal, and the Amateur did nothing illegal with them in the meantime.

There is no difficulty with the law here, at least not for them. The onus is upon you in regards to compliance with local laws.
Ignorance of the law is not a viable defense, if you are spotty teenager the judge might be more lenient or might not. If they change the law and you are in breach of it then they will try to fuck you over, you have no expectation of 'fairness'. They're paid to do this, it's how the system works.