Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Another nail in the coffin of home chemistry (UK)

nezza - 29-8-2014 at 11:48

It looks like our Government is implementing another EU directive to limit our freedom.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/supplying-explosi...

Being an amateur chemist - It was nice while it lasted.

Nitric acid 3% WTF.

The Volatile Chemist - 29-8-2014 at 11:51

Quote: Originally posted by nezza  
It looks like our Government is implementing another EU directive to limit our freedom.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/supplying-explosi...

Being an amateur chemist - It was nice while it lasted.

Nitric acid 3% WTF.

That's absolutely horrible! Is this just in the UK, or more of europe?
Is nothing to be done? :/ sheesh, this aught to be petitioned against.

Pyro - 29-8-2014 at 13:31

guys, stock up while you can!
I intend to be the hell out of this country by late 2016 (emigrating).

Europe is becoming reminiscent of 1930! wake up! do something!

HgDinis25 - 29-8-2014 at 14:23

I'm in Europe and I can get 60% Nitric Acid in the nearest drug store at the price of 2 euro. Sulfuric Acid 98% at the price of 3 euro. And many other chemicals that are restricted in other countries. There's still hope in Europe, I just hope the idiots in the UK don't press the rest of the EU to star implementing restrictions like those.

aga - 29-8-2014 at 14:30

"must report suspicious transactions and significant losses and thefts."

So they expect the Sellers to claim it was all stolen ;)

Oh well, it really just means clamping down on the people buying precursors cos they cannot Make it themselves.

Time to get the older books out, and start (re)learning how to make the basics again.

For chemists, especially long-timers, it should be an annoyance rather than a reason to quit chemistry.

You never know : it might generate a whole world of new interest.

aga - 29-8-2014 at 14:37

Quote: Originally posted by Pyro  
Europe is becoming reminiscent of 1930! wake up! do something!

Europe is just collapsing is all.

It was a crap idea to begin with : the Reactions would never work !

Wars there will be/already are, but it's a somewhat different global environment now.

You'll not live forever no matter what you do, so Chem Onwards.

Pyro - 29-8-2014 at 14:39

that's why we are leaving...


HgDinis25 - 29-8-2014 at 14:53

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
"must report suspicious transactions and significant losses and thefts."

So they expect the Sellers to claim it was all stolen ;)

Oh well, it really just means clamping down on the people buying precursors cos they cannot Make it themselves.

Time to get the older books out, and start (re)learning how to make the basics again.

For chemists, especially long-timers, it should be an annoyance rather than a reason to quit chemistry.

You never know : it might generate a whole world of new interest.


This isn't a simple annoyance. These types of law are responsible (not alone) for the dumb view people have on chemistry. Also, if you are in the UK and have 4% Nitric Acid in your lab, you're breaking the law. Sic...

WGTR - 29-8-2014 at 15:36

Unless I am mistaken, there is a thread here talking about this very topic:

https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=23...

As much of an inconvenience that it is, I don't see this legislation as a serious problem for home chemistry. It sounds like a license needs to be obtained to purchase/possess certain concentrations of certain chemicals, and that records are kept linking certain types of purchases to a specific individual.

If no licensing is required for purchase, then the government cannot monitor who is buying these chemicals. Anyone with cash can walk in and buy as much as they want. That includes not only a hobby chemist, but also someone who wants to blow up a shopping mall or a school. Whether the licensing is effective to limit these problems, I can't say for sure.

It sounds to me like the licensing is partly a vetting process, as well as a means of tracking who is buying what, and how much. Whatever licensing fees are involved are needed to fund the departments that handle the vetting and tracking processes.

Overall, it sounds like licensing is a small effort in an attempt to combat terrorism. It's not a ban on any particular chemical, nor is it a vast conspiracy to dumb down and frustrate the population. At least that is my unprofessional opinion.

For anyone affected by this, I would suggest going legit and getting licensed. That way if your neighbor reports you for "mixing strange chemicals in your garage", law enforcement can see that you are licensed, and probably won't worry about you.

Unfortunately, the whole world is generally moving in this direction. It's going to be harder to buy certain things no matter what country you live in or move to. If it's not a problem in your country yet, wait about 10-20 years and report back again. It's certainly not going to get easier. With the explosion (no pun intended) of information available on the internet, pretty much anyone can BYOB (build your own bomb) with stuff they find in their local hardware store. To combat this you either regulate knowledge, materials access, or the physical access of malcontents to high value targets.

Out of the three, the last two are probably the easiest to implement. You can't go to Home Depot and anonymously purchase a truckload of ammonium nitrate anymore. The high school I graduated from had a couple of dozen buildings and an open campus. A few years ago it was bulldozed and replaced with a single large building, with single-point controlled access. You can't walk through airport security to the gate unless you have a ticket now. Federal buildings now have large cement pylons around them to prevent people from driving trucks up next to the building. You get the idea.

When it comes to hobby chemistry, you have to pick your battles. If you want to change things, then do it at the ballot box. I would encourage anyone not to "stick their finger in the eye of the man", and do things underground. It's risky, and not productive. If your storage techniques, record-keeping, and lab practices can stand up to the scrutiny of your local authorities, then you'll be well on your way to a hobby that will benefit you in the workplace later.

Of course, all of the above is my own opinion, is probably all wrong, and should be validated with the services of a competent professional; bla, bla, bla.

HgDinis25 - 29-8-2014 at 16:21

The license will either A) be too expensive B) be too hard to obtain. Otherwise, what's really the point. Yeah, I get it, record who's buying what. However, if everyone that needs to use those products obtain the licence, lists will be incredible large. Imagine that there's an IED explosion with TATP. Then, they go to those "lists" and check who bought Acetone. There's probably hundreds of names in there. Dead end.

If the license is too expensive, then how are chemistry hobbists suposed to get it? Besides, licence will probably be 18 year old restricted, meaning that hobbists in their teens won't be able to obtain it. And to the other portion, I don't think they're swimming on time and money to go and get it.

The license may also be very hard to obtain. Like 3 months waiting period, paperwork bullshit, backgrounds check, etc etc. A year will go by before you get your license.

And worst of all: these licenses will pose as self incriminatory paper trails. For instance, let's imagine that you get involved in a bombing investigation. You're completly innocent but you were seen on the site with an oddly shapped backpack. If you have a permit to buy Ammonium Nitrate and ANFO was used in the bombing, you are burned. They won't get off your back, afterall why would you need the NH4NO3? Even if you try to explain a legemit use for it, you probably won't stand a chance.

aga - 30-8-2014 at 13:11

Quote: Originally posted by HgDinis25  
if you are in the UK and have 4% Nitric Acid in your lab, you're breaking the law. Sic...

Is that true ?

So if anyone distills some really good Nitric is already an evil Lawbreaking terrorist ?

Lambda-Eyde - 30-8-2014 at 13:41

Calm the fuck down and get your facts straight:

1) The directive is yet to come into force (planned for 2015 IIRC)

2) Yes, it will apply to the whole EEA (EU + Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein).

HgDinis25 - 30-8-2014 at 13:45

Quote: Originally posted by Lambda-Eyde  
Calm the fuck down and get your facts straight:

1) The directive is yet to come into force (planned for 2015 IIRC)

2) Yes, it will apply to the whole EEA (EU + Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein).


No, it will not apply to all the European Union. And you must have a license to buy any of those itens after 2 September 2014. Last I checked, that date is 3 days away...

veganalchemist - 31-8-2014 at 04:05

The regulations are here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014/1942/pdfs/uksi_20141...

Also, how to apply for a license:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/licensing-for-hom...

Only £39.50

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/hazardous-sites-an...

Check out the section, Documents for Home Users.



Lambda-Eyde - 31-8-2014 at 08:13

Quote: Originally posted by HgDinis25  
No, it will not apply to all the European Union. And you must have a license to buy any of those itens after 2 September 2014. Last I checked, that date is 3 days away...

Well, this is embarassing. I didn't bother to read it properly because I was absolutely sure this was the same as the EU directive that also regulates (among other things) sale of >3% nitric acid which is to come into force sometime in 2015 (the date may be specific to Norway). I don't have any sources for that except in Norwegian, sorry. It looks like the UK is one step ahead.

woelen - 31-8-2014 at 12:19

Just to summarize:

From September 2, 2014 the sale of the following chemicals to members of the general public is prohibited in the EU and a few other nearby countries (don't remember exactly which ones):
- HNO3 concentration > 3%
- H2O2 concentration > 12%
- CH3NO2 concentration > 30%
- chlorates concentration > 40%
- perchlorates concentration > 40%
Countries are allowed to introduce a licensing system for the first three chemicals and the cost of obtaining a license must be reasonable (this is done in the UK, see above). Not all countries will do so, e.g. in the Netherlands there will be no licensing system, so over here there are no exceptions and no one is supposed to buy e.g. > 3% HNO3. Countries are allowed to introduce a licensing system, but if a government thinks this is too much hassle, then they can simply ban these chemicals for everyone.

From March 3, 2016 the making, possession and use of these chemicals is not allowed anymore. Indeed, after this date, making your own chlorate cell and making some KClO3 is not allowed anymore. Possession of e.g. KClO3 will be a crime. Up to the date of March 3, 2016 the possession and use still is allowed to allow people to use up their stocks. After that date, you should bring these chemicals to a municipal waste processing facility in order to have them destroyed/disposed off properly.

The second part (March 2016) of these regulations worries me much more than the first part. These reagents I can make myself (only the nitromethane will be a real challenge) in small quantities (100 ml, 250 grams, that kinds of quantities, which are good enough for my purposes of experimenting), but that is not allowed! Making them will be a crime!

HgDinis25 - 1-9-2014 at 18:06

That's true woelen. However I think it's not going to stop there. Like Lambda-Eyde stated, there's also a UE directive to license such chemicals and a few others. That's an open door for a future lesgilation, perhaps already integrated in the UE diretive, that will make illegal the use of such chemicals for purposes other than those stipulated by law. For instance, you may be allowed to buy KNO3 stump remover but you can't use it for chemistry related purposes.

Fantasma4500 - 2-9-2014 at 06:33

excuse me i think you guys mean DYSROPE which is the more correct semantic version of ''europe''

but as another user on this very forum once stated, they will need to ban salt, water and electricity before they can completele wipe out any ''terrorist act''
let alone somehow make it impossible to get nitrogen and hydrogen, or urea???

just wonder if we could get some deal running with selling NM and KClO3 and what not below 30 and 40% with simple sand.. rofl. i mean wouldnt that be possible?????
sand would be quite inert and not count it in as a pyrotechnical composition


anyhow nitric acid can be concentrated using anhydrous salts, perhaps even boiling it and collecting vapors or discarding them?
H2O2 can be boiled down to high concentration especially with an inverted computer fan ontop of the beaker

the question of WHY they would ban such chemicals is a question i will probably never get to find an answer on myself, having thought i knew before

plante1999 - 2-9-2014 at 06:40

Well, our hobby is already kinda dodgy, and I doubt that else then changing country each time there is new regulation, there is way to be on the legit side of things. I mean, I don't think that in any foreseeable future Laws will slack, as such I believe the best way to do it is to continue your experiments quietly and safely, without being noisy about it.

So, EM in larger then lets say 5g quantity (which is already kinda large) would be a total no-no, but making 20 ml of nitromethane in your home lab would get totally unnoticed.

Magpie - 2-9-2014 at 08:14

I don't see how banning these OTC chemicals is going to stop a determined terrorist. He just has to learn some chemistry - are they going to ban that too?

WGTR - 2-9-2014 at 09:29

I think that synthesizing explosive precursors seems straightforward to someone who knows the chemistry behind it. I mean, hey, anyone can build a Birkeland-Eyde reactor, right? And then they can reduce part of the nitric acid to ammonia on a copper cathode, and make ammonium nitrate. It only takes air, water, electricity, and maybe a few hundred bucks.

The reality of it is this. There's a sliding scale of materials availability vs. the likelihood that someone can carry out a terror attack using those materials. There's also a sliding scale of materials availability vs. inconvenience to the general population. Things get reprioritized and pushed around until some sort of legislation results, hopefully delivering the intended results.

The concern is not necessarily a qualitative one, but also quantitative. Sure, you can get ammonium nitrate from CVS, but how big of a bomb can you build out of cold packs? It's not so simple as just buying a truck load of 50 lb. bags at Home Depot. You can get chlorates by boiling down bleach, but how many tons of bleach do you want to work with? The harder you make something, the less likely it is to happen. Both chlorates and ammonium nitrate are legal in my own country, but it's just an example.

The people that they are trying to stop are those who go buy a bag of this, a bag of that, a gallon of that, and mix it all together with a long stick (or something). Many of them don't even go through the effort of building a proper initiation device; they just steal them from somewhere, or repurpose old munitions. Somewhere along the line, someone decided that perchlorates in <40% concentration where fairly ineffective when used in bulk explosives, but it would still allow the population to use it for gardening or whatever. That's probably where those limits came from.

Dr.Bob - 2-9-2014 at 10:02

Those are quite onerous rules. And while I agree that the quantitative issue is the main one, that is not what the rules are saying. I would think that quantities under say 100 g of any of those would be harmless to possess. Even in the US, you are allowed to buy 1lb of perchlorates without a license.

If the rules are not clear, then I could see selling some of those with an inert filler, but I am sure that they will clarify that eventually, once they realize that sand could be removed easily.

PS, perchorates are not used for gardening, but nitrates could be. If you are going to make comments on a science forum, please at least get your science correct. :-)

metalresearcher - 2-9-2014 at 10:04

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  
I don't see how banning these OTC chemicals is going to stop a determined terrorist. He just has to learn some chemistry - are they going to ban that too?

Indeed that is true.

Quote: Originally posted by WGTR  

The concern is not necessarily a qualitative one, but also quantitative. Sure, you can get ammonium nitrate from CVS, but how big of a bomb can you build out of cold packs?

That is true as well.

But making a powerful terrorist bomb is simple. With propane tanks and even draining the gasoline from a car one can simply make a powerful bomb. None of these chemicals is needed. So, actually authorities should ban propane or gasoline ?

WGTR - 2-9-2014 at 10:20

Quote: Originally posted by Dr.Bob  

PS, perchorates are not used for gardening, but nitrates could be. If you are going to make comments on a science forum, please at least get your science correct. :-)


Sorry. Looking at the post again, I should have said "chlorates". Sodium chlorate is used commonly as a grass killer, before you plant for the season.

aga - 2-9-2014 at 12:43

Hahaha.

From the UK FAQ:

"Business to business transactions are outside of licensing requirements"

I'm a Business.

Not sold anything yet, as this Business (me) is in the Startup R&D phase, and i'm working on the Product that this Business will sell.

Once i discover, then make the Product, the Business will then move to the Sell Stuff phase.

Sorted.

Texium - 2-9-2014 at 14:36

Yes, or to take it to the next level, all amateur chemists convene and create one giant lab and call it a business, and then we carry on doing everything we normally do, and call it research.

WGTR - 2-9-2014 at 17:29

OK, how about using cations other than sodium and potassium? That may not work for all applications, but may provide a way to avoid infringing on the law. I'm thinking cations like lithium, magnesium, calcium, strontium, barium, etc. If you can't keep pure potassium or sodium chlorate, then perhaps one of the other salts will work for a given application. Same thing with nitrates (although those seem to be merely watched, not banned).

I'm not clear on whether water would be a legal diluent, but if your chlorate cell is running less than 40% concentration by weight, then technically it seems like it would be legal.

DJF90 - 3-9-2014 at 05:03

You have to apply for a license via the home office:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/licensing-for-hom...

As far as your order is concerned, 12% is the concentration threshold for hydrogen peroxide, so it should not need a license.

[Edited on 3-9-2014 by DJF90]

Fantasma4500 - 3-9-2014 at 08:57

please dont look too much forward to it.. as in to vote, whatever parties you have in scotland they are nothing but controlled opposition to one and each other
i dont think you will find a political party willing to make chemicals accessible to the public just like that, it will just keep getting worse and worse, more laws, not less..
government seeks to control, why would they control less when they can control more?

already the idea of victimless crime is just unimaginably unacceptable to exist as a rule.. ok i see the preventive idea in it, but.. is the future where we need permission to cut a piece of bread using an obviously very dangerous sharp metal weapon that far away??

keep voting, but if you ask me then i suggest that you cant fix government with government, at least try not to expect too much from writing your name on a piece of paper

The Volatile Chemist - 3-9-2014 at 13:30

If it weren't so sad a situation, I'd say it'd be a good way to make money.
Glad I live in America!.... heh, heh, wait...
I agree with those who said we should just be careful and continue going on as we have been. From what I've heard from some Irish, you can't even get radiator fluid in car stores, but that's just hear-say.
I hope this all works out, but until it directly applies to me, I don't feel much ability to do anything. Does anyone know if this applies to Germany? I was sorta hoping to move there as an adult and start a chemical company...

woelen - 3-9-2014 at 13:49

The new regulations certainly have effects. The seller APC Pure indeed stopped selling HNO3, H2O2, H2SO4 and other annex I and annex II chemicals. Their listings are removed from eBay. Other sellers in the UK who sell HNO3 also removed (or were forced to remove?) their listings.

In the Netherlands, the well-known seller Hinmeijer also does not sell any HNO3, KClO3, KClO4, H2O2 (>12%) to individuals anymore. They put an explicit remark in red on the webpage for these chemicals. E.g. for nitric acid:
http://www.hinmeijer.nl/product/65294/Salpeterzuur_div_conce...

So, it looks as if this is serious and the more respectable sellers indeed stop selling these chemicals to individuals.

Remarkably, of the perchlorates only NaClO4 and KClO4 are unavailable. Perchloric acid, barium perchlorate, and magnesium perchlorate still are sold to individuals. These are not on the Annex I list.

Annex II chemicals still are sold and no mention is made of any paperwork, needed for these. E.g. for sulphuric acid:
http://www.hinmeijer.nl/product/66822/Zwavelzuur_div_concent...

The Volatile Chemist - 3-9-2014 at 14:29

Interesting, woelen, I forgot the consequences of sellers abroad. Do you think those who sell annexed chemicals online will be looked into? (In/by European countries [sorry, I know very little about Europe])

WGTR - 4-9-2014 at 08:07

Looking at the link that was provided for the legislation, it seems a little short on detail. Is that all there is?

I can't say whether this is legal or not, but an obvious loophole that I could see would be if there was a mixture of 40% sodium perchlorate, 40% potassium perchlorate, and 20% of something else, perhaps a more expensive perchlorate salt. Even with just 40% each of both the potassium and sodium salts, that would add up to 80%. Someone's bound to discover this, and start selling it that way.

woelen - 4-9-2014 at 08:40

It is easy to make a solution which contains slightly less than 40% of NaClO4 by weight (NaClO4 is very soluble). The same is true for NaClO3. Such solutions still are far from saturated, so no solid material crystallizes from these solutions when stored at room temperature.

With these you can make KClO4/KClO3 easily. I can imagine that in due time such solutions appear on certain websites and that a bag of KCl is supplied together with the solution to easily make KClO4/KClO3.

jock88 - 4-9-2014 at 12:17


Perhaps steel pin dust + perchlorate?
This would be easily separated with a magnet.

QED

Fantasma4500 - 4-9-2014 at 12:40

i still stick to sand and chlorate/perchlorate

you can just boil the thing and decant :D

im thinking steel pin may be seen as a surely great step towards an IED, lmao.
i can just imagine the news showing video of some russian pouring aluminium powder over it, giving it a shake and then sticking in a fuse and then the results of that, otherwise quite interesting idea...
perhaps there should be looked abit into iron dust, it wouldnt have same POTENTIAL IED use, and also which is noteworthy has a nice density so it wouldn fuck up shipping costs too much as they take % as being per weight
i just wonder what it would be sold as... skin lotion?? supposing you got to have some sort of product to sell it

anyhow reading that APCpure got in trouble is really really sad.. such an honest business.. goddamnit sad

spoke to owner of a pyro supplier which just had ClO3 and ClO4's removed and he confirmed that they have already gotten hold of samples of Pb (PbO2?), MMO and titanium anodes
could be quite cheeky to order a package with 5kg KCl, a 40A power supply and some titanium/MMO electrodes.. but ohwell.. loopholes are there to be exploited anyhow

aga - 4-9-2014 at 13:22

Energy is the real threat.

Best remove all of it to be Safe.

When is the '0 Kelvin Safety Act' being discussed ?

WGTR - 4-9-2014 at 14:11

I like woelen's idea simply because the associated materials could be very high-purity. At the same time, dry solids are usually easier to ship than liquids, especially if said liquid is a strong oxidizer. The seller would also have to be careful with liquid solutions like this, because inadvertent evaporation could concentrate it past the legal limit.

Antiswat's concept is appealing because it is a simple dry mixture. The sand should be pretty clean, but this might not be a problem for most situations. In the back of my mind, though, sand is such an inert material that it's almost too easy to separate the salt from it, and the sand is not intended to be used for anything. This might get a seller into trouble, or invite unwelcome attention from the authorities.

How about if the advantages of both ideas are combined? Dry sodium perchlorate mixed with excess dry KCl, and shipped this way, for example. It would have the advantage of being a dry mixture, and the materials could have very high purity as shipped. The idea is to raise the bar of difficulty just a bit in order to filter out most of the crazies, while not hampering most of those with a legitimate interest in chemistry.

Or, of course, you can just make your own electrochemically...


Edit: Ammonium perchlorate is not on the list...which is somewhat interesting.

[Edited on 9-4-2014 by WGTR]

woelen - 4-9-2014 at 22:25

IIRC ammonium perchlorater already is covered by other regulations. E.g. Hinmeijer has no ammonium perchlorate on his list of chemicals and the same is true for another well-known seller in the Netherlands (Labstuff). They both have perchlorates on their list, but no ammonium perchlorate. Both, however, have HClO4 and that can be used as a basis for other perchlorate salts. However, the price for perchloric acid is quite high, it is not a cheap chemical! I think that this is the reason why perchloric acid, magnesium perchlorate, barium perchlorate, copper perchlorate and maybe some other metal perchlorates are not on Annex I, simply because they are so expensive that terrorist abuse of these chemicals hardly is possible. You need multiple kilograms for a serious bomb and making the ingredients from e.g. HClO4 would be VERY expensive and it also would be VERY suspicious if a customer tries to buy 25 liters of HClO4. Normally that is sold per half a liter, or 250 ml. For home chemistry, however, this may be a viable route to other perchlorates.

These new regulations are bad, but in some way, they can also be made into an advantage. The really interested people will develop methods and skills to make their own chemicals. I certainly expect a rise in interest in electrochemistry for making chlorate and perchlorate salts and a rise in interest in making NOx from air, or more easily from nitrites, which in turn can be used to make HNO3. And I also expect sites like eBay and certain online stores to be flooded with MMO-anodes, PbO2 anodes and other materials, needed for building chlorate and perchlorate cells. Probably this will be so within a year, maybe two.

[Edited on 5-9-14 by woelen]

metalresearcher - 5-9-2014 at 11:40

Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
IIRC ammonium perchlorater already is covered by other regulations. E.g. Hinmeijer has no ammonium perchlorate on his list of chemicals and the same is true for another well-known seller in the Netherlands (Labstuff). They both have perchlorates on their list, but no ammonium perchlorate. Both, however, have HClO4 and that can be used as a basis for other perchlorate salts. However, the price for perchloric acid is quite high, it is not a cheap chemical! I think that this is the reason why perchloric acid, magnesium perchlorate, barium perchlorate, copper perchlorate and maybe some other metal perchlorates are not on Annex I, simply because they are so expensive that terrorist abuse of these chemicals hardly is possible. You need multiple kilograms for a serious bomb and making the ingredients from e.g. HClO4 would be VERY expensive and it also would be VERY suspicious if a customer tries to buy 25 liters of HClO4. Normally that is sold per half a liter, or 250 ml. For home chemistry, however, this may be a viable route to other perchlorates.

These new regulations are bad, but in some way, they can also be made into an advantage. The really interested people will develop methods and skills to make their own chemicals. I certainly expect a rise in interest in electrochemistry for making chlorate and perchlorate salts and a rise in interest in making NOx from air, or more easily from nitrites, which in turn can be used to make HNO3. And I also expect sites like eBay and certain online stores to be flooded with MMO-anodes, PbO2 anodes and other materials, needed for building chlorate and perchlorate cells. Probably this will be so within a year, maybe two.


+1 !
Very good ideas ! Nice challenges to make some chemicals yourself. I already made a small quantity of white fuming HNO3 a year ago.

But another thing is that other chemicals in multi kilogram quantities to make serious bombs (or terrible fire accidents) are easy to obtain. Think about such common and cheap explosives as propane or gasoline.
To prevent this, the whole EU would move to electric cars and electric cooking and these fuels should not be sold to individuals anymore. And no flammable gases in homes. But, obviously that is infeasible.


[Edited on 2014-9-5 by metalresearcher]

The Volatile Chemist - 5-9-2014 at 12:59

In the future, I could probably give out a few PSUs (Just computer ones) for electrochem...I have like 8 w/o use... :) I'd like to hook a few up together sometime, though.

jock88 - 5-9-2014 at 13:16


As more and more chemicals are banned the demand for Earth, Wind and Fire will rise and rise. They will soon appear in large quantities on ebay.......

Going slightly off topic, will Hydrogen Peroxide keep for long periods of time?

aga - 5-9-2014 at 13:25

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist  
PSUs (Just computer ones) ... I'd like to hook a few up together sometime

Check that the Mains Earth does not connect to the 0v on the hard drive cable before attempting that.

unionised - 6-9-2014 at 03:13

Quote: Originally posted by DJF90  
You have to apply for a license via the home office:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/licensing-for-hom...


[Edited on 3-9-2014 by DJF90]


I'm thinking of filling that form in with the details of someone I don't like so they get hassled by the police.

Fantasma4500 - 9-9-2014 at 09:26

i recall once powdering some KClO4 with a spoon
when i looked at the spoon again it was for some reason extremely shiny, wondered me alot to think about since then

anyhow.. NaCl may work aswell.. but for the sand thing we could call it polishing solution??

NaCl is known to put things to a halt, mixing in some NaCl with KClO3 sugar surely messes up the burn, and im quite sure that i read something on SM that NaCl can completely stop the reaction if theres just a decent amount in a pyrotechnical composition, potentially rendering it safer to ship as it cant act oxidizer that well

anyhow, if they DO get offended, what the hell are they gonna do about it? go talk to EU and expect different rules in 5 years, and then they can go fuck themselves for 5 years until then?
i would open up a store just to piss them off.

nannah - 30-9-2014 at 00:11

I am thinking about buying some H2O2 before its too late. Should i get it or is it illegal?

Scr0t - 30-9-2014 at 02:32

Quote: Originally posted by nannah  
I am thinking about buying some H2O2 before its too late. Should i get it or is it illegal?

It depends on which European country you reside. If you're in the UK it's too late unless you acquire a license.
In my country I have no idea, there is no mention of it that I can find.

nannah - 30-9-2014 at 04:15

Have this new law come into work yet? I was thinking that you should order a liter or two 35% H2O2 from apc while i still can.
I dont need it, but it seems quite useful so it might need it in the future.




prof_genius - 30-9-2014 at 04:26

I think you can still buy hydrogen peroxide-urea, that could circumvent the ban.

Dan Vizine - 2-10-2014 at 13:27

Whoa....I just found this thread...wtf?!

Europe, what's come over you?

You want to thrown with us for the knee-jerk reactionism crown? We're from the US, the clear all-time masters of the art...
but, I'll give you this much, it's an audacious start!

zenosx - 2-10-2014 at 18:39

This really sucks for people in the EU.. but WGTR at least practices what I preach in my meth riddled state of the US (My state was #1 for Methamphetamine production for the last two years!).. Yea that's the south for you... In return I keep logs, not only of every single reaction carried out in my lab, but sometimes photos of those reactions, and a full lab inventory of every chemical, including amounts, when it was received, when it was used, the amount remaining, products recovered, etc. My intent is that if the DA ever wants to get involved in my life, I can show the judge and jury to the date and time, exactly what happened, what was used and what was the intended (or unintended) outcome. I even have bright red exclamations in my lab books for reactions that could even "possibly" result in illegal substances on even micro-gram amounts. While It might not help, I at least hope that a legal team, and jury can see that I was not in the game to produce illegal substances or explosives....While I am not keenly aware of the ways that the EU laws work, keeping accurate logs, and working a professional type setting in your home lab could be the difference between prison time and hand-shakes later.

WChase501 - 10-10-2014 at 13:40

:D

macckone - 10-10-2014 at 14:20

That really sucks for UK home chemists.
You can apparently get 2 years for possession of greater
than 3% nitric acid regardless of what you are using it for.
You really have to have a license for anything approaching
usable nitric acid.

Little_Ghost_again - 18-10-2014 at 09:41

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but came to light friday for us. Dad via his own company ordered hydrogen peroxide 32% over the phone. He has an account with the company, while on the phone (they have his details on file) they woman asked what he was using it for, he mentioned something to do with enzymes and liver tissue.
Apparently when he filled the due diligence form in he didnt put that use on it. So they refused to sell it!
Apparently you can only use it for the things you have listed on the diligence form!
Also you cant use terms like general reagent!! So if caught using it for a reason not on your file you can be prosecuted. What is a worry is that Dad was ordering for a limited company! not as a single person with a license.
They also mentioned there is too be a big shake up next year with 30 other common chemicals added

NOV:5 - 18-10-2014 at 11:52

The slippery slope.. I've copied sections from the "homeowners" document. Bolded some of the troubling bits. Lotsa room for for the short little nazi that's having a rotten day pass some of it on. Or for the government to just withhold and not bother to even explain why.

If free people don't stop this sort of legislation now it will quickly spread. Already the trend in the states is to acclimate people to a quasi-military police force that points automatic weapons at unarmed bystanders just because. MRRAPS rumbling down neighborhood streets carring camouflage uniformed police with bulletproof armor busting through every opening of the neighbors house...


Do I need to prove why I need to use regulated chemicals?

The Home Office licensing unit will pay particular regard to the intended use of the substances when reaching their decision. Conditions may be placed on the maximum concentration or

What suitability checks will you carry out?

The licensing team will consider your criminal record and any mental health issues that could pose a risk to yourself or the public. The team will also consider the legitimacy of the intended use of the chemicals.



How does the Home Office (licensing authority) assess whether a person is fit to acquire, possess or use regulated substances?

The licensing team will consider your criminal record, and other information held by the police and relevant partners and any mental health issues that could pose a risk to yourself or the public. They will also consider the suitability of the intended use of the chemicals.

How will I be notified of the decision?

If your application is successful, you will receive a letter telling you and your licence will be posted separately.

In the overwhelming majority of cases, if your application is unsuccessful and it is because of one of the following reasons:

 The information you provided is incomplete;

 There has been an abuse of process, for example, you have provided false information;

The licensing team are of the opinion that another substance or lower concentration of

the regulated substance is more appropriate for your intended use;


 You have been convicted of an offence that presented a risk to your own safety or the

safety of the public; or

 You have a recent history of mental issues that presented a risk to your own safety or the

safety of the public
you will be informed of the decision by post and told the reason behind it.

There will be some occasions where, due to sensitivities relating to information held by the police or relevant partners, a full reason or, on rare occasions, any reason will not be provided.

[Edited on 18-10-2014 by NOV:5]

[Edited on 18-10-2014 by NOV:5]

[Edited on 18-10-2014 by NOV:5]

careysub - 18-10-2014 at 12:43

Quote: Originally posted by zenosx  
This really sucks for people in the EU.. but WGTR at least practices what I preach in my meth riddled state of the US (My state was #1 for Methamphetamine production for the last two years!).. .


Missouri?

Not any more.

Apparently Missouri is now number 3, behind Indiana and Tennessee.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/missouri...

zenosx - 19-10-2014 at 17:31

Wow. That Just Sucks. I'm sorry for you guys over there....

TheAlchemistPirate - 19-10-2014 at 22:00

I actually live in indiana, nearby the biggest drug county in the state. Other than not being able to buy many essential chemicals, having my family's tax dollars wasted, and the local police force less available to stop actual crimes, the "war" on drugs hasn't really affected me.

The Volatile Chemist - 20-10-2014 at 16:34

Haha, pennsylvania's up there too, but I don't live there. Too bad, it's a pretty cool state otherwise.
I don't know about the US adopting such procedure, but if they do, I'll be one of the first to try to convince them otherwise. I'm sure Arkoma will be up there with me too :)