Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Identifying a metal oxide

kine - 8-8-2005 at 04:06

Hi there i am new here and very nice forum congratulations!

I recentrly bought a metal oxide from a paint shop for experimental purposes with therm;ite formulations, but i am not sure what oxide it is.
It is for sure an oxide because it is writen on the label.
I need a way to identify what metal it is. The most possible must be iron oxide Fe2O4 (magnetite) or Cuo (copper oxide) because of the totaly black color.

I am not that good in chemistry so i thought i could use some help from you all.
Are there any simple methods to experiment with this oxide without too much aparatus or chemicals?

Thanks in advance.

chemoleo - 8-8-2005 at 04:15

If it is magnetite Fe3O4, get a magnet out and see if it attracts.
If not, then add dilute hydrochloric acid, and dissolve it. Does it dissolve? What colour? Then add NaOH to the dissolved oxide, until you get a precipitate. What colour again?
That should sort out most possibilities, as there aren't THAT many cheap black oxides.
NiO is black, too, btw.
Anyway, do that, and tell us the results, it should be an easy one.

kine - 8-8-2005 at 04:31

Guess it is magnetite Fe2O4 because it sticks on the magnet. Although i wish it was CuO because of more impresive thermite formulation but it is more expensive to manufacture and especialy for paint use. So it is reasonable that this oxide is used for black paint.

At the store i found also many other oxides like cobalt oxide but there are many colors - powders that state on their label "cobalt color". Could there be impurities?


I got 600 mesh flake aluminium wax coated because it is pyroforic. Is this suitable for thermite?
Both powders are extremly fine so should i expect a very fast burning mixture? Will the raming in the container increase the speed of deflagration due to solid byproduct?

[Edited on 8-8-2005 by kine]

12AX7 - 8-8-2005 at 07:00

Magnetite is Fe3O4.

The lower oxygen content will cause it to burn slower, whether the particle size is microns, or half an inch! (Some day I'll have to do an anvil with thermite, I figure a good charge to get it burning good, then go to alternating aluminum plate and taconite ore for the bulk of it, plus some calcium fluoride, magnesia and silica to get the slag good and soupy.)

You'll gain a little reaction speed with the fine powder but for the most part, all you're doing is allowing smaller charges to burn. Go with cheap aluminum or magnesium filings.

You'll know cobalt when you see it. Not by appearance but by price: cobalt oxide from the pottery supply runs around $40/lb. Cobalt is not a common metal, and what little exists would rather be used in high speed steel and nickel/cobalt super alloys :D

Tim

kine - 8-8-2005 at 07:07

In that case copper oxide seems suitable but how can i be sure before i buy it? I mean there are a lot of kind of "black powder" colors and some don't have the indication "oxide" but they are not Fe3O4 since they have different indications, like other name or serial number but still the same black.

I saw a bottle containing "red iron oxide" with an orangish color will this give a "faster" thermite?

Is there a posibility for CuO to be in other color than black?

12AX7 - 8-8-2005 at 07:58

Fe2O3 will certainly work well. Standard thermite. Cuprous oxide, Cu2O, is yellow to orange to red and makes a thermite suitable for producing copper metal. Black cupric oxide, CuO, makes a thermite which burns more like flash, and is impact sensitive (see energetic materials forum, exploding targets have been made of this).

Tim

kine - 8-8-2005 at 09:46

I made a search at the "Energetic materials" forum for "exploding targets" byt there is nothing.
Anyway aboyt what sensitivity we are talking about, like droping 100grams and it goes of or something like hiting it with a hamer?

Is it possible to use a sleave of copper wire for high surface area in alectrolisis to make Cu(OH)2 and then heat it in case i don't find it?

What is the comercial use other than paint of Cuo so i can find it? Potery shops shell it for what?

Edit: I found one of the black powders was manganese oxide or dioxide? Can this replace CuO in therm;ite?

[Edited on 8-8-2005 by kine]

neutrino - 8-8-2005 at 10:42

Try finding the MSDS sheets for the pigments. These should tell you what's in them.

I wouldn't try MnO<sub>2</sub> thermite. MnO<sub>2</sub> is a strong oxidizer and might give you more of a flash powder.

Electrolysis will certainly work.

kine - 8-8-2005 at 10:47

I am not sure that the black is manganese dioxide it just says that it is manganese black, could it be MnO?

Actualy i want a flash like thermite so MnO2 it is good for me. There is a problem with me only if it is too shock sensitive or friction. Does a MnO2 and Al make a shock/friction sensitive mix?

Edit: Also i wanted to know if it is ok to store therm;ite. Iknow that iron oxide therm;ite is very safe to store but does this apply to CuO or MnO2 combos?

[Edited on 8-8-2005 by kine]

Axt - 8-8-2005 at 11:08

CuO/Al targets @ http://ww1.webtop100.net/~62552/xmovies.webtop100.net/banner...
Even though I've never tried to hit it with a hammer, I think it pretty insensitive. You can try precipitating it from boiling Cu sulphate solution with NaOH, though Im not sure how much water it holds onto.

MnO2/Al is pretty tame compared to CuO. But then the tamest of all, for me, is brown PbO2 :mad: Both precipitated from Pb acetate with NaOCl, and extracted from new (never seen acid) batteries always burn very slowly. Even if heated (dried) in the oven for an extended period. Very frustrating, considering its supposedly one of the most violent. Yellow/red HgO & yellow(?) Bi2O3 should be nice as well (lower boiling points).

[Edited on 8-8-2005 by Axt]

kine - 8-8-2005 at 11:24

Ok i found a pottery industry close where i live and tomorow i will give a call and ask about CuO. How should i ask for it? It is an industry not a shop so i am not sure how to give them understand what i am looking for. What exactly it is used for in those industries?

12AX7 - 8-8-2005 at 12:41

Well duh, first of all ask if they'll sell pound quantities. Then ask for a pound (or however many you want) and price, then pay, thank the person and get out.

Copper provides three colors, red as colloidial copper metal and/or cuprous oxide (dissolved or suspended in a silica glass melt), cupric produces a pastel green (like malachite) and, in some cases, blue (like azurite).

Mn is quite reactive (near zinc) so MnO2, despite being an oxidizer, is comparable to iron.

Axt: my CuO or PbO + MgAl powders all have shown shock sensitivity. Ignited Pb thermite hasn't proven to be particularly active, it often likes to strobe over a period of seconds.

Tim

praseodym - 8-8-2005 at 23:09

It is always better to start a thermit reaction with a Mg fuse.

kine - 9-8-2005 at 06:33

Today i found accidentaly a store that sells bricks in colors and some colored glasses. At a shelf i found some powders including black but the label doesn't say anything about oxide it says this : "Colouring agent for concrete lime and plaster" Is this the CuO i am looking for? The person that sells it does not know what it contains.

neutrino - 9-8-2005 at 07:04

Find the website of the company that makes your powders and look for MSDS sheets.

unionised - 9-8-2005 at 10:12

Chemoleo,
"NiO is black, too, btw."
Care to check on that?

IrC - 9-8-2005 at 10:29

A simple flame test can tell you which metal is involved. However, if I were trying to make something I would not play around with unknowns, you can get copper oxides on ebay from a particular seller, at very cheap rates and 99.9 percent purities. You can also get other compounds. If you do not find him by doing an ebay search for say "copper oxide", send me a U2U. I don't want to post his ebay name, as I am not sure how he would feel about that.

kine - 9-8-2005 at 11:09

Well there is no site on the company that makes the black dust neither i can make a test in the store before i buy it.
Tomorow i will call the pottery industry and ask for CuO as colouring agent.
On the other hand what could it be a jar full of black powder in a pottery store stating on label "colouring agent for concrete lime and plaster" are there many other chemicals that used as a colouring agent in clay?
The clerk told me that it is used to give color in bricks but had no idea if it was CuO.

Cyrus - 9-8-2005 at 15:10

You can make a test in the store with a magnet. But I wouldn't advise bringing in test tubes and flasks or anything.

You can also just call the pottery supplier. They can answer questions about their store better than we can. They have tons of chemicals, and they had better know what copper oxide is, and while you're at it, you should stock up on some other stuff they have too, especially if there's a min. order.

12AX7, I can't believe you.... in your description of the colors copper makes in glazes, you forgot (gasp) that beautifiul metallic copper color seen mostly in reduction fired raku. (usually in conjunction with iron oxide). Surely that's not what you meant by mere "red"? :D :P

praseodym - 9-8-2005 at 22:42

Quote:
Originally posted by unionised
Chemoleo,
"NiO is black, too, btw."
Care to check on that?

:o
NiO is green while Ni2O3 is black or sometimes dark gray. I think chemoleo could have gotten them mixed up...:(

kine - 10-8-2005 at 01:44

I bought the colouring agent for lime and plaster and it has similar magnetic properties as Fe3O4. Up on heating test with flame it turned to dark brown so probably it is magnetite too. Now i got over a kilo of magnetite powder.
I asked many pottery shops around and noone has any CuO. Although i found massive amounts of copper suflate (turquoise blue) and also massive amounds of KOH. Can somebody give me a detailed conversion of copper suflate to CuO with those materials. I want to make around half a kilo (quarter of a pound?) so i dont have to mess with all those chemicals again.

Edit: Magnetite on heating on open flame turns in to brown color right?

Also does the above mentioned method with the solutions of copper suflate and sodium hydroxide release any toxic sulfure fumes?

[Edited on 10-8-2005 by kine]

neutrino - 10-8-2005 at 06:09

The conversion is very simple:

CuSO<sub>4(aq)</sub> + 2NaOH<sub>(aq)</sub> --> Cu(OH)<sub>2(s)</sub> + Na<sub>2</sub>SO<sub>4(aq)</sub>

Filter out the Cu(OH)<sub>2</sub> and heat in an oven:

Cu(OH)<sub>2</sub> -heat-> CuO + H<sub>2</sub>O

No dangerous gasses/fumes produced. Note that this will also work with any soluble hydroxide (NaOH, KOH...)

The_Davster - 10-8-2005 at 08:57

Just boil the Cu(OH)2 after it has precipitated. It turns to CuO without the added step of putting it in the oven. Also I have found CuO made this way is superior to roasted CuO from Cu(OH)2 in thermite.

neutrino - 10-8-2005 at 09:01

Doesn't oven-drying help remove residual moisture, as well? I seem to remember someone saying that step produces a superior thermite.

kine - 10-8-2005 at 10:25

I will use a pyrex for drying the Cu(OH)2 after filtering it out

Is CuO/Al thermite storage safe when closed airtight?
Also since it is impact sensitive a charge of the same thermite could initiate it or it will scateri around?

[Edited on 10-8-2005 by kine]

12AX7 - 10-8-2005 at 11:45

It'll probably burn like a flare. The last charge of CuO/MgAl I burned produced gaseous products, so everything in the path of the gas got metallized pink, even organics :)

Tim

kine - 11-8-2005 at 00:29

Ok i made some but i have no scale (my food scale has broken) so i added by volume. The copper suflate is anydrous so i have used the same volumetric quantities of KOH and CuSO4. Due to exesive head from the moisturised caustic potassium the reaction gave instantly CuO without any heating so right now i have a black colored powder at the botom of the solution. should i let it stay all day for the reaction to complete? Or should i put it in the sun to vaporise and then wash it in a cloth to remove any potassium suflate?
What is the exact weight ratio when using KOH

Sorry for the ton of questions but i just learning, thanks for the info.

kine - 11-8-2005 at 05:03

I found cromium oxide 1 kg for 7 euro (around the same as US dolars) Is it safe for thermite/flash compositions? It is the green oxide.

neutrino - 11-8-2005 at 05:34

It should already by done by now. I suggest adding excess copper sulfate because strong base solutions are nasty to work with. Just keep adding CuSO<sub>4</sub> until you get a blue color in the solution. Then filter, wash, and dry.

kine - 11-8-2005 at 05:42

Well i got a good yeld in a big plastic plate and waiting water to vaporise with a 500w heat lamp above.
After all (if it works with thermite) it is cheaper to make CuO with this way. Still i haven't found a pottery to sell me CuO, only stores that sell pottery stuf.

12AX7 - 11-8-2005 at 07:11

Chromium thermite works just fine, yielding metal globules as with iron oxide. It ought to be cooler (since chromium is more reactive than iron), I don't remember if it needs some sulfur to speed it up.

Tim

The_Davster - 11-8-2005 at 09:56

Kine, you may want to boil it for a few min, 10 to 15 should be good, in order to ensure that you just have CuO, and no Cu(OH)2 trapped inside.

kine - 11-8-2005 at 10:09

Can't that be done with the dry powder in the pyrex? The impurity Cu(OH)2 will not react with the pyrex so with the heat (dry powder) it will convert to CuO.

The_Davster - 11-8-2005 at 10:56

Compared to CuO made from Cu(OH)2 roased, CuO made by boiling Cu(OH)2 seems to work faster in a thermite. I got this by comparing Chemoleo's results and mine.

kine - 11-8-2005 at 21:12

Ok i will boil it down but how can i filter it? The vaporising pan seems bad idea for me because it will hold upon evaporation CuSO4 salts and K2SO4 salts in the CuO.
So i will do this:
Put the CuSO4 in the pyrex with water dissolve and in another glass vessel i put some KOH with water to dissolve. Then i pour the KOH solution in the pyrex and heat to boiling point (is it completly safe indoors?).
After 10-15 min CuO has formed but there are also some suflate salts in the solution. How do i remove those impurities? After boiling the water out rewash it with hot water again and again?


Quote:
Compared to CuO made from Cu(OH)2 roased, CuO made by boiling Cu(OH)2 seems to work faster in a thermite. I got this by comparing Chemoleo's results and mine.


Any idea why his hapens?

[Edited on 12-8-2005 by kine]

The_Davster - 11-8-2005 at 22:12

Well for the CuO that I made for use in thermite; I added solid NaOH to a concentrated solution of CuSO4 that was nearly boiling, pretty much just CuO precipitates from the heat of the solution as well as from the exotherm of the NaOH dissolving. There was still some Cu(OH)2 there so I boiled for around 5-10 min after which time all the precipitate was black with no traces of blue and settled to the bottom of the beaker rather fast. I just directly filtered it from there and washed the CuO with lots of dH2O. One batch I did I did not wash it enough so when the CuO dried there was noticeable sodium sulfate crystals on the CuO, this however did not affect the preformance of the CuO in thermite to any noticeable degree. An ethanol or methanol wash of the CuO would help remove any sodium sulfate held in there by capillary action, but I have not botherd with this, just washing well with lots of distilled water. Just air dry till dry and then 5-10 min on a hotplate to get rid of residual moisture and it is done.

Also be sure with all steps involving heating make sure to use boiling stones and constant stirring and add the NaOH slowly. If the NaOH is added too fast to a boiling CuSO4 solution the contents of the beaker have the nasty habit of jumping out at you.:P As is the problem with all reactions involving so much precipitate. A good way to prevent this is to keep everything just below boiling while adding the NaOH and then raise the temperature with constant fast stirring and boiling stones while boiling the CuO to rid the remaining Cu(OH)2.

EDIT...sorry for double post, I could not edit and attach a pic.

[Edited on 12-8-2005 by rogue chemist]

The_Davster - 11-8-2005 at 22:44

Here is a pic of what happens when solid NaOH is added to boiling(or possibly superheated) CuSO4 with no boiling stones and insufficient stirring.

As for why this method for CuO makes a superior thermite...I don't really know(but I do have some speculation). Chemoleo and I had discussed this a bit in the exotic thermites thread(or was it the electrolytic production of CuO thread?). Possibly roasting the CuO on too high of heat decomposes some CuO, or perhaps in aqueous solution the CuO is less dense or more porous allowing more contact with the Al powder.

oops2.JPG - 37kB

kine - 12-8-2005 at 05:11

Ok everything is perfect (i got a lot of black powder in a pan with lots of water) and i want to filter it because sun evaporation takes too long. What should i use for filtering without having to scrape it from the filter? Coffe filters maybe?

neutrino - 12-8-2005 at 05:40

Those should do. If the weight of the CuO tears the filters, stack a couple or try a cloth support.

[Edited on 12-8-2005 by neutrino]

12AX7 - 12-8-2005 at 07:22

Don't forget to pour off excess liquid, add clean water, wait for it to settle, pour off again, and so forth to remove soluble salt. This is called decantation.

Tim

kine - 12-8-2005 at 09:48

Ok thanks for the clarification. I have the wased and clean powder on the cloth (found it good since the yeld is good) it is drying under a heat lamp. When it is ready i will give a small test on CuO/Al. Does the adition of sulfur give any lower ingnition temerature? I already got some S/Al mix for ingnition. Is it safe to ingnite a 2gram thermite with starter S/Al by a match?

praseodym - 13-8-2005 at 02:19

I think the addition of sulphur does make reaction more vigorous but wouldnt the burning of sulphur produce sulphur dioxide gas which is something you dont really want to smell? Starting the thermit with a match shouldnt be a problem as long as a fuse is used. The last time I did a thermit was with a Bunsen burner and a fuse...

12AX7 - 13-8-2005 at 08:00

Actually it makes H2S. 2Al + 3S = Al2S3, in moist air Al2S3 + 6H2O = 3H2S + 2Al(OH)3 (or whichever hydroxide forms in these conditions).

Tim

kine - 13-8-2005 at 09:27

H2S is explosive on open air at the right concentrations and a little toxic.

Ayway tomorow i will give a test because it is late now.

The powder needs to be crushed in a mortar, mine is a metal one made from a soft metal, must be lead. Is it ok to crush it in that or it will react with the lead?

12AX7 - 13-8-2005 at 13:12

Just fine. A little reaction might happen on the contact surface (comparable to mashing Hg2S in an Ag mortar making Hg globules... what was that process called?!) but PbO isn't a problem.

Tim

kine - 14-8-2005 at 00:09

I have film canister half full with CuO/Al (how many gram is this?)stored with the lid on a shelf, unluckily it is too windy outside to test it. Maybe i should use it with the canister or try another calm day.

I had somwhere some barium nitrate sparklers but i can find them and instead of those i made a comon sucroze potssium nitrate fuses in thin straw will this ingnite the S/Al?
Also does S/Al work without air oxygen? S suposed to work as the oxidiser.


Edit: Hope that all those combos are safe on my shelf....

[Edited on 14-8-2005 by kine]

12AX7 - 14-8-2005 at 10:18

I would guess... 30 grams?

Yes to everything else.

The_Davster - 14-8-2005 at 11:57

Don't you know how much CuO and Al you mixed? Or did you not make the mix stoichiometric and just mixed a bit of each together?

kine - 14-8-2005 at 13:24

Used equal volumetric amounts and added a little extra CuO, i remember reading someone did this way because he had no scale too. I will buy a new food scale soon since it is very important in such compositions.

I made another big amount (must be around 500grams) CuO and it is drying now. I have to note that it is far more cheaper than buying CuO. If i remember well it is 5$ per pound in US. i can buy CuSO4 4kilos for 3 euro and 3 kilos KOH for 2euro. Thats 5euro for a huge amount, something like 2kilograms CuO and more...

neutrino - 14-8-2005 at 15:32

Food scale? You really need something better. See this thread.

kine - 15-8-2005 at 00:06

Does ebay ship stuff like scales over Europe?

The_Davster - 15-8-2005 at 00:08

It usually depends on the seller.