Sciencemadness Discussion Board - The best country to pursue amateur chemistry in.

The best country to pursue amateur chemistry in.

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The_Davster - 1-9-2005 at 19:34

Just curious as to what everyone thinks the best country is for the pursuit of our beloved hobby at this point in time.

Lets try to keep this to first and second world countries, despite what you may think, on occasion we need stuff other than chemicals and glass, such as food(debatable)

.

I personally think Canada is pretty good(there are plenty of suppliers, you just have to look), we have not yet gone too much like a police state(yet). But I am rather biased on this one, I do not know much about many of the European countries outside of GB, BRD, and france.

[Edited on 2-9-2005 by rogue chemist]

12AX7 - 1-9-2005 at 21:26

100% legally, or as a gray area?

I'll mention the USA, just for discussion, I know little of the chemistry laws here (besides the dramatic unavailability of nitrates and the "everyone's a terrorist" mantra).

Tim

The_Davster - 1-9-2005 at 22:03

As close to 100% legal as possible.

mmm...loophole
"34. A person may, for the purpose of laboratory chemical experiment
and not for practical use or sale, make a small quantity of explosive
in a place that is not a licensed factory if reasonable precautions
are observed to prevent injury to persons or damage to property and
if the provisions of the Act and these Regulations are observed as
far as they are otherwise applicable."
From the explosives act of Canada.

The thing that gets me about the USA is the actual banning of certain chems, red P comes to mind, but in the current state of affairs certain pyrotechnic chems are being removed from the market. Also the required lisencing for glassware in texas.

EDIT: That quote will get a few of you drooling.

I however as a result of the current state of affairs have decided to quit experimentation in this area after much thought.

But many of you will be interested in it anyway.

EDIT2: In Canada KNO3 containing stump remover has been taken off the market/banned

[Edited on 2-9-2005 by rogue chemist]

Chris The Great - 1-9-2005 at 23:42

I like that part of the explosives act very much

You still need to follow other parts of the act and regulations and local laws however.....

Also, organic peroxides are not considered explosives under the explosives act either.

vulture - 2-9-2005 at 09:52

Belgium is pretty relaxed. I hope it stays that way. Getting most chemicals is not a problem, the only problem is importing KClO4 for some reason, but that's only a real setback if you're a pyro freak.

Oxydro - 4-9-2005 at 16:19

Rogue, I agree that Canada is fairly chemist-friendly, and I have quoted that regulation to parents, friends, and parents of friends, in an attempt to justify my hobbies.

I would say that generally, the farther east you go, the easier it gets. The west coast and prairie provinces (well, specially bc and alberta) are more meth-crazed for now, meaning more suspicion/restrictions.

Out here (east), the main problem is how far you have to go to get to a decent store.

However, I've lately been seeing more news about how Ontario and Quebec are starting to crack down on drug making and unfortunately that tends to impact the chemist.

Chris The Great - 4-9-2005 at 16:46

Yes, right now there is a huge meth craze going on here. I haven't had any problems obtaining chemicals however. Most meth labs here buy their chemicals in bulk from corrupt industrial suppliers or whatever, cops aren't surprised to find multi-kilo boxes of psuedoepthedrine hydrochloride sitting around in meth labs that put huge amounts everyday.

I think the main problem will be when they get rid of these type of labs and the meth supply starts coming from "mom and pop" type labs like down in the states. Then we'll start seeing some much tougher restrictions on the chemicals you can easily pick up from your local stores.

The_Davster - 4-9-2005 at 18:19

My city actually debated whether or not to ban the sale of HCl and acetone to the public

. I never heard more of it than it was a proposition to the city, and luckily acetone and HCl are still in hardware stores. Although I did not see HCl when I was in home depot today which is worrisome.

Damn meth....
:mad:

12AX7 - 4-9-2005 at 20:18

FWIW, round here HD keeps the HCl outside.

Tim

Chris The Great - 4-9-2005 at 23:56

My home depot does not carry HCl either. I did find it at Canadian Tire however. I bought two 4L jugs as well as a big jug of paint remover (which I distilled 3.5 liters of methylene chloride out of

)

woelen - 5-9-2005 at 01:41

It indeed is bad to see all kinds of reagents disappear.
In the Netherlands there is another strategy. Chemicals are becoming more and more dilute. They remain available, but only at high dilutions. This is not for reasons of drugs making (NL is quite relaxed with respect to owning precursors, such as I2, P or K2Cr2O7), but for reasons of safety. All chems must be idiot-proof. If we wait a few years more, then we only can buy flavoured water over here

with acid scent, ammonia scent etc.

E.g. HCl used to be 30%, now it is < 10%.
NH3 used to be 25%, now it is < 5%
NaClO used to be 10% active chlorine, that has dropped to 4%
Acetic acid was 32% for household cleaning, now it is just 4% or if you are really lucky 10%.
H3PO4 used to be 85%, now it is < 8%.

At some places the more concentrated reagents still can be found, but it is becoming harder to get them.

Now some concerned people are looking for ways to ban solid NaOH and 97% H2SO4 as drain cleaners. These chems can be misused by young boys, making Al-bombs :mad:

. Fortunately these still are available, but for how long???

vulture - 5-9-2005 at 07:49

Quote:

Now some concerned people are looking for ways to ban solid NaOH and 97% H2SO4 as drain cleaners. These chems can be misused by young boys, making Al-bombs

Not to mention PSYCHO KILLERS! They use it to dissolve their victims!

As far as I know I can buy mercurycompounds, potassiumchlorate and even sodiumazide OTC if I want. I know someone who actually pulled that last stunt off.

[Edited on 5-9-2005 by vulture]

Magpie - 5-9-2005 at 08:23

Woelen's post reminded me of something I saw in a small town recently not too far from where I live. It was an old fashioned hobby shop like they had when I was a kid. It had the rubber band propelled balsa models of WWII airplanes where you constructed the wings using stringers and stretched paper. But I digress. What really caught my attention was a chemistry set! For children of all people! But on the cover it bragged in large letters: "Microquantities! No flammable solvents! No alcohol required! No hazardous chemicals!" I really wanted to take a marking pen and add "No fun!"

sparkgap - 5-9-2005 at 09:07

"...it bragged in large letters: "Microquantities! No flammable solvents! No alcohol required! No hazardous chemicals!"..."

*overheard at the company boardroom* "...Yes, let's put those words in. We can't afford to be sued, especially how it's getting harder and harder to encourage parents to buy our sets..."

sparky (~_~)

neutrino - 5-9-2005 at 18:30

Sad but true. How we all miss the 50s.

Fleaker - 11-9-2005 at 14:07

Even 20 years ago things were radically different, chemistry sets contained more obscure, and more hazardous reagents; pharmacies would sell silver nitrate and potassium permanganate (amongst others). Going back 40 years, you could openly play with mercury in high school chemistry class; I pity the fool that would attempt that nowadays. Still further back, as neutrino noted, in the 50s a teenager wouldn't even be questioned for purchasing antimony chloride or even thallium at a chemical supply house if he could offer a good experiment.

Still in some locations it's worse than others. In my area, concentrated chemicals still exist, albeit cunningly labeled to hide their contents. Nothing's been removed *yet* except red devil lye, perhaps forshadowing future bans to come?

My question is who do we blame for the dilution of chemisty courses in high schools, the removal of useful, yet potentially hazardous chemicals from the shelves, and the jaundiced eye of glassware/chemical companies towards individual sales? So who is ultimately responsible?

bio2 - 11-9-2005 at 17:00

...........The thing that gets me about the USA is the actual banning of certain chems, red P comes to mind, ...........

Please correct me if I'm wrong but how does being on the DEA List 1 make red P banned (whatever that means)?

As far as countries Mexico is pretty good for home chemists. Never have any trouble getting anything in the catalog as in the USA also but it's that Listed Chemicals nonsense
that is a pain.

Keeping records for 2 years just because you're over the threshold for toluene or acetone, even MEK is rediculous. Neverminding the prying eyes that go along with it.

The_Davster - 11-9-2005 at 17:35

Quote:

Originally posted by bio2
...

Please correct me if I'm wrong but how does being on the DEA List 1 make red P banned (whatever that means)?

I remember someone on this forum saying that possession of red P is actually a felony in the USA.
Can someone back me up on this?

[Edited on 12-9-2005 by rogue chemist]

S.C. Wack - 11-9-2005 at 22:26

http://www.ussc.gov/2004guid/2d1_11.htm

http://www.ussc.gov/2004guid/2d1_12.htm

google "possession of red phosphorus" to see what is going on state-wise.

any news on the proposed Canadian RP legislation?

vulture - 12-9-2005 at 12:15

Quote:

Even 20 years ago things were radically different, chemistry sets contained more obscure, and more hazardous reagents; pharmacies would sell silver nitrate and potassium permanganate (amongst others). Going back 40 years, you could openly play with mercury in high school chemistry class; I pity the fool that would attempt that nowadays.

I can buy AgNO3 and KMnO4 from the pharmacy if I want, without many questions.

I even had a physics teacher demonstrate torricellis experiment in highschool with 2L of mercury.

I'm in my early twenties, so it's not that long ago.

Twospoons - 12-9-2005 at 16:28

Here in New Zealand the police only seem to be interested in busting meth and E labs. So if you buy pseudoephidrine medicines at a pharmarcy they record your details.

But thats about it. Anything else seems to be fair game. I can walk into a farm store and pick up a 20kg bag of potassium nitrate. 30% HCl, 30% H202, etc are all available.

Fleaker - 12-9-2005 at 19:04

Vulture:
Ah, but I was referring to the United States, not so much internationally where there are still countries that haven't abandoned all logic for a policy of control and regulation.

[Edited on 13-9-2005 by Fleaker]

bio2 - 12-9-2005 at 19:51

.......I remember someone on this forum saying that possession of red P is actually a felony in the USA. .........

Nonsense, although some states may have new draconian laws the sentencing guidlines posted only apply to someone already convicted of a drug offense (manufacture).

List 1 & 2 chemicals are all easy to purchase.
The threshold quantity is the level where the supplier must report the sale. If Listed Chemicals are to be sold then a disclosure statement is required and 2 years of record keeping on hand. This is to account for all of the chemical.

The_Davster - 12-9-2005 at 19:58

I guess it was some sort of 'attempt to manufacture' charges I was remembering, not 'posession of red P'. Thanks for clearing it up for me.

[Edited on 13-9-2005 by rogue chemist]

Magpie - 12-9-2005 at 20:00

Long ago (1970) I visited Munich, West Germany as a tourist. One of the neat things I saw was the "Museum of Science and Industry." In the chemistry section they had set up about 5 sealed fume hoods where by use of buttons the visitor could activate an actual chemical experiment using chemicals, beakers, test tubes, etc. This, of course, amazed me. So, at that time West Germany was probably a great country for amateur chemistry. But I would guess that is no longer true.

S.C. Wack - 12-9-2005 at 21:41

Quote:

Originally posted by bio2
the sentencing guidlines posted only apply to someone already convicted of a drug offense (manufacture).

Where does it say that? What it does say:

21 U.S.C. §§ 841(c): Offenses involving listed chemicals

Any person who knowingly or intentionally --

(1) possesses a listed chemical with intent to manufacture a controlled substance except as authorized by this subchapter;

(2) possesses or distributes a listed chemical knowing, or having reasonable cause to believe, that the listed chemical will be used to manufacture a controlled substance except as authorized by this title; ...
shall be fined in accordance with Title 18, or imprisoned not more than 20 years in the case of a violation of paragraph (1) or (2) involving a list I chemical or not more than 10 years in the case of a violation of this subsection other than a violation of paragraph (1) or (2) involving a list I chemical, or both.

-------
...5. Convictions under 21 U.S.C. §§ 841(c)(2)...do not require that the defendant have knowledge or an actual belief that the listed chemical was to be used to manufacture a controlled substance unlawfully. In a case in which the defendant possessed or distributed the listed chemical without such knowledge or belief, a 3-level reduction is provided to reflect that the defendant is less culpable than one who possessed or distributed listed chemicals knowing or believing that they would be used to manufacture a controlled substance unlawfully.
---------

As I said in the other thread, by possession of RP, as far as LE is concerned, you are guilty of intent unless you can prove that you had no intent to manufacture. Good luck with that.

In my adult life, I've always thought that the US was a bad place to do chemistry. It can only get worse.

Swany - 14-9-2005 at 19:10

First off, I'm from the USA and I would say that somewhere in Europe may be better for chemistry, but not as good for pyrotechnics. This being said, I am interested in both. And I can nearly get the best of both worlds, as far as actual location.

I live near Canada in a very low population dense region. It's quite wonderful for the more 'dubious' synthesis that require hazardous steps and the products should be isolated. This is also good for pyro for obvious reasons, yet I live in USA so I have access to 'American' chems without import problems.

The only real vice I can think of as per location is an extreme meth craze. It's worse than the cities and basically the worst in the whole country IIRC. Not very good, where chemist is synonamous with meth cook. :mad:

Comes down to money

ChemHack - 15-12-2005 at 10:30

If you have the money, anywhere and everywhere is a good place to do chemistry. Chemicals are cheap and plentiful if you know how to place yourself in a legitimate niche, be it academic or industrial.

I would say, for economic reasons, the USA is the best.

vulture - 16-12-2005 at 06:44

Quote:

As I said in the other thread, by possession of RP, as far as LE is concerned, you are guilty of intent unless you can prove that you had no intent to manufacture. Good luck with that.

Forgive me, but isn't the burden of proof (that you did have intent) on the DA?

S.C. Wack - 16-12-2005 at 15:50

Truth and idealism are quickly lost by anyone who has been exposed to the system here, and I've been in it.

Prosecutors are interested in convictions. A judge or jury is likely to find your explanation that you are just a "hobby chemist" an excuse like all the other excuses that they've disregarded in the past.

The police will not hesitate to arrest you if they see chemicals and equipment that they see in "meth labs" all the time, and no one in the system will give a shit about you or your protestations at that point. Really. And you cannot make them give a shit. No ephedrine, no meth residue, well only because we caught you before you could get that far. "Meth lab" convictions are very common here. Finding a "lab" or even ten in a month in a city of 10,000 no longer makes the news. Nor do the convictions, even though they involve sentences of 30 years, your children are taken away before any trial, possessions forfeited, etc. This is all quite routine and you are faceless.

This may be simplistic and there are exceptions, but I wouldn't count on anyone going to bat for you if you come to the attention of LE.

Magpie - 16-12-2005 at 16:56

S. C. Wack you are confirming my worst nightmare. If you don't mind answering, were (are) you in LE? Or how did you observe these nefarious actions by LE.

Perhaps all who are US citizens should torch their labs, keeping only our libraries.

And while there is still time, I should hire a lawyer and have him set up a large escrow account as a legal defense fund. :mad:

S.C. Wack - 16-12-2005 at 17:40

By "in the system" I meant on the other side. But both sides lose their idealism soon. A fresh young caseworker was assigned to me once, and a couple of years later she and my case helped get the judge permanently removed from the bench by the supreme court, an almost unprecedented action. The judge really pissed her off, so she went to an extreme. Others are more jaded and don't even try, much like in politics. My father has been a deputy sheriff for 25 years.

Nefarious might not be the best word, everyone on that side thinks that they are doing the best for society. It isn't a slam-dunk everywhere, at least not without ephedrine/"directions"/"knowledge"."Intent" is just so vague, and many states have their own definitions. In some states, I2, RP, and a copy of the Rhodium archive may be enough. In some, RP and I2 are already illegal by statute. Coffee filters, solvents, glassware, help - (pseudo)ephedrine, obviously - but what I am saying is that many of us already have enough things on hand, with the addition of something notorious such as RP/I2/HI/NH3, to be seen as intending to manufacture. One can have an extensive chemistry setup/knowledge/chemicals obviously unrelated to meth, yet still manufacture it. I happen to live in a "meth lab" area.

S.C. Wack - 17-12-2005 at 04:53

Quote:

Originally posted by S.C. Wack
any news on the proposed Canadian RP legislation?

I don't know if this has been talked about in Whimsy as I've no intention of ever reading it, I noticed that no one else was talking about it out here. Canada now (well, next month) has US style "precursor" laws. Say goodbye to RP, comrades!

http://canadagazette.gc.ca/partII/2005/20051214/html/sor364-...
http://canadagazette.gc.ca/partII/2005/20051214/html/sor365-...

vulture - 17-12-2005 at 07:40

This is really starting to piss me off. As a scientist you are welcome to serve your society by doing research, but ofcourse this must be done under the following conditions:

- Your research must be politically correct and should not conflict with the statements of the powers that be. If it does, you've obviously made an error and are guilty of malpractice.
- You must accept the fact that the society you serve will regard you as a psycho monster, because you know how to kill people and how to make drugs. You are a potential threat to THE CHILDREN.
- You are welcome to design super weapons for the government, just don't make any firecrackers at home, because that's obviously terrorism.
- Greenpeace, religious fucknuts, quackery and anybody who can scream harder than you are always right. Should you be right, the previous rule automatically comes into effect.

The_Davster - 17-12-2005 at 13:20

Aarg...my Canada is beginning to go the way of the states :mad:

. Not that I really have any use for red or white P, but I was thinking of getting some white P, simply for its spontaneous flamability.
My area is in a rather bad area for meth labs, so I am not really sure what I am going to do, quitting experimentation is NOT an option. I think that letting people I know that I do experimentation at home is a good thing, showing that I have nothing to hide. Ive been doing this recently and I have actually found out of a couple other people who experiments at home as well, which I found rather interesting. From what I know so far they are not as serious about it as me.

Anyway for all you Canadains out there, vote libertarian this upcoming election. (check out their website)

IrC - 17-12-2005 at 14:14

I think the push is to only allow science to be done in a government/university/corporate setting. Anyone doing their own private research must obviously be some kind of criminal. The only cure for this is to surround your house with a 20 foot wall, and paint company logos all over the place?

Magpie - 17-12-2005 at 14:41

Rogue I agree with you that closing down my lab is not an option. I have dreamed of having my own lab for decades but put it off until retirement because of family obligations. It just puts a lot of stress on me knowing the risk that I am taking for a false arrest.

It seems that every time I read about LE busting meth labs they say that "this area is particularly bad" or, "one of the worst in the country." So I conclude it is bad everywhere in the US, especially in the smaller communities and rural areas. I know that meth use is not going to go away as 65% of the meth comes in from superlabs located in foreign countries. But if they can stop the Mom & Pops then this should considerably reduce the risk for the home chemist. But this will likely take some time, if indeed it ever happens.

vulture - 17-12-2005 at 14:50

The war on drugs mill produces lots of petty criminals for incarceration, which funds the prison industry with your tax money, which buys your president (amongst others).

Your president then yanks the chain to get more severe prosecution and consequently the prison industry gets more money, more lobbyists and more political influence.

Same goes for the oil industry, but then related to Vietraq and Afghanistan.

There are more examples, but you can figure this out yourself.
Just look at the number of incarcerated people in texas and how many people make a living out of this.

IrC - 18-12-2005 at 01:07

After giving all this much thought and remembering what Chris Rock had to say about being stopped by the police, it occured to me, what should we do if stopped on the way back from procuring chemicals? I think his ideas may apply as to how we should act during a stop. So in order to provide help in our endeavors it seemed proper to share this instruction in this 4 mb video:

http://207.228.241.74/stuff/AssKicked.wmv

[Edited on 18-12-2005 by IrC]

Magpie - 18-12-2005 at 15:58

That is a funny video with good advice. However, staying within the law will soon reduce the US citizen home chemist to "kitchen chemistry" where all that will be tolerated is taking pH readings, making vinegar/sodium bicarb volcanoes, and watching the weird things that happen when you put flowers and rubber balls into liquid nitrogen.

The_Davster - 18-12-2005 at 17:07

Well, I believe we are within the law for most amateur chemistry(unless you are into explosives or drugs), but I do not have much faith in LE to realize this. They see you distilling something, they are going to assume methcook instantly. I believe redemption would only come in the courts, so the best thing is to not act shifty, don't try to make up excuses for what you are doing. Don't say the gallon of lab grade sulfuric acid is for drains, say it is for creating sulfate salts and dissolving metals. Harmless nerd/madscientist is always the best.

Now a hypothetical, lets say LE was to come to your house with reports of you using glassware outside and people smelling funky smells. Would it be best to ask them to see a warrant?(not likely to have one, but asking to see one would be considered suspicious) Or would it be best to let them in without question, and tell them what you were doing? On one hand, the sight of a lab would make them suspicious, but your willingness to tell them about it would make it seem that you had nothing to hide. But then again they could think you were so willing to tell them, because you are doing something wrong and are trying to appear innocent.
Thoughts?

S.C. Wack - 18-12-2005 at 18:30

Knock and talks are not uncommon and allowing LE in may or may not be recommendable. If you turn them away and they come back with a warrant, expect retaliation in some form. This all depends on your situation. There are so many variables. Around here, I recall 2 complaints by landlords quickly turning into EPA Events that cost them many tens of thousands of dollars.

neutrino - 18-12-2005 at 19:12

EPA events? What exactly happened here?

IrC - 18-12-2005 at 19:43

If you let them in without a warrant they are still going to look around and nail you for whatever they can, unrelated or not. Usually the odds are something unrelated is where they do go after you. It may piss them off but at least you have a better chance in court if you make them get one. It matters not that not letting them will piss them off, either way you lose but by giving them permission to look around you have shafted yourself legally. I keep a complete list of my chems as it helps in knowing what I need. I do not know if I am right in this but I have always thought at least if you show the court you spent 20 grand on other chems and supplies VS the 20 dollars worth of chemicals they are trying to base any case on, somehow you would look better to the court. I mean, what cooker spends 20 bucks on what he needs to cook with and then buys thousands of dollars worth of unrelated chems that could not be used to make something illegal (at least related to their case about drugs, I am sure we all have stuff that could blow things up when mixed right)?

The point here is that in my mind this gives me a better chance of proving to the court that I really am into legitimate research rather than just being an illegal meth cook. Like I say I may be totally full of it in this thought but to me it seems logical. So, does having a list of chems which shows you are not just storing and/or using precursors alone give any better chance at winning your case? Hopefully I will never have to find this one out. Likewise a lab notebook showing the experiments you are or have been doing I think would also aid in showing that you are into legitimate science. Am I right?

What really pisses me off is the fact that I even have to apply thought to this entire subject. I think they should wage their war but also just leave us real mad scientists the fuck alone! Now I have myself thinking about that Walmart scenario a few months ago. I think I will make some Earl Grey and mellow out for a while.

S.C. Wack - 18-12-2005 at 20:08

I can't say for sure, I just remember that it was chemistry-related rather than (everyday ho-hum) meth-lab related. There was video on the news. I just wanted to make the point that chem hysteria can be applied, if not drug hysteria.

I'm not sure what exactly what it is to be cleaned up in meth lab clean up, except that it costs $10-30K. I don't mean the initial removal of chemicals, I mean residue of some sort. Of course I have my doubts as to whether this is necessary.

By making post after post, I worry about going overboard on the warnings. Appearances, criminal record, community standing, etc. is almost everything. I just wanted to make the point that one can get painted by LE in an unsavory, undeserved way. This can be very serious.

Ask the local fire marshal what he thinks about your doing chemistry at home.
(he is powerful as friend or foe)

[Edited on 19-12-2005 by S.C. Wack]

Jome - 19-12-2005 at 02:07

I would propose some non-western country w.o many prohibitive laws, perhaps Brazil? Sam Barros doesn't seem to have had a hard time getting chems when he lived there. Provided one has a steady income (or wealthy parents) comparable to western standard that oughtta be paradise.

Imagine ordering HClO4 without much hazzle....

Seems like laws are quite different even in different places in the western world, like us Swedes being able to buy pyridine, THF, red P, iodine and acetyl chloride but not sulfuric acid, not to mention lead compunds, even insolubles like red lead being outlawed...

wa gwan - 23-12-2005 at 12:07

Quote:

Originally posted by IrC
What really pisses me off is the fact that I even have to apply thought to this entire subject. I think they should wage their war but also just leave us real mad scientists the fuck alone!

LOL! Why do you think having a home lab is such a dangerous hobby anyway? Because most "home labs" you hear about are meth labs. Well tough! You can't have it both ways. If you support the war you're going to have to live with the paranoia and the very realistic risk that comes with having a home lab in the climate.

To look at it from a slightly different perspective however, pseudoephedrine is closer to meth chemically than P2P (deoxygenation ~v~ reductive amination), pseudoephedrine makes a more powerful form of meth than P2P (pure dextro ~v~ racemate), but P2P is a class II scheduled drug and you can buy pseudoephedrine anywhere.
Now pseudoephedrine is the number one precursor for meth and P2P is a distant memory.

So?

Well...

Quote:

Originally posted by rogue chemist
Aarg...my Canada is beginning to go the way of the states :mad:

. Not that I really have any use for red or white P

Funny..I feel exactly the same way about pseudoephedrine.

Now..where the fuck did I put the raid?

IrC - 23-12-2005 at 16:19

"LOL! Why do you think having a home lab is such a dangerous hobby anyway? Because most "home labs" you hear about are meth labs. Well tough! You can't have it both ways. If you support the war you're going to have to live with the paranoia and the very realistic risk that comes with having a home lab in the climate."

This is a complete crock of shit. In fact it the biggest crock of shit I have ever read on SCM!

Lab stands for laboratory. This is where science is done, science is learned, new ideas are brought into reality. A meth cooking outfit is not a lab, never has been and never will be. I dont fucking believe you just said what you did if you are indeed a legitimate member of SCM and a TRUE scientist, amateur or not. The totally full of it comparison which you just made is precisely why we have the problems we do. There is no need in a meth cookers setup for a wealth of science books, lab notebooks and a wide variety of chemicals. All they need is one crappy recipe for death and the few chemicals and materials needed to make their satans brew. Any real scientist would have known this and never stated the words you just did. All you are doing is repeating the media, police, and public mindshit that goes on ad nauseum while they strip away our rights to do science.

Can't have it both ways? The post you just made isn't one a real chemist would have made. I do not need a pile of cold medicine to do what I do but not being able to have phosphorus is keeping me from experimenting with new and novel semiconductor materials in the form of gallium, indium, and germanium phosphides to name just a few, and is blocking some energy research I wish to do along the lines of more efficient solar cells. The assholes peddling death are destroying my ability to conduct science as a lone wolf researcher all in the name of money and nothing more. Hell is where they came from and hell is where they will end up.

Now I know why I would not ever go to any meetings if SCM ever arranged one. I would get arrested for double bitch slapping anyone I met who came at me with the line of reasoning you just did. All you are doing is towing the paranoid media/police line.

[Edited on 24-12-2005 by IrC]

wa gwan - 27-12-2005 at 14:28

Quote:

I dont fucking believe you just said what you did if you are indeed a legitimate member of SCM and a TRUE scientist...Any real scientist would have known this and never stated the words you just did...All you are doing is repeating the media, police, and public mindshit that goes on ad nauseum...The post you just made isn't one a real chemist would have made...

What the hell is this personal attack all about?? That's 4 or 5 times you've personally attacked me without a single counter-argument. There is a name for what you're doing of course. It's called an ad hominem argument. Here, I'll give you a paragraph or 2 from the wikipedia definition:

---
"An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin, literally "argument to the man") or attacking the messenger, is a logical fallacy that involves replying to an argument or assertion by attacking the person presenting the argument or assertion rather than the argument itself....An ad hominem fallacy consists of asserting that someone's argument is wrong and/or they are wrong to argue at all purely because of something discreditable/not-authoritative about the person or those persons cited by them rather than addressing the soundness of the argument itself."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
---

Quote:

Hell is where they came from and hell is where they will end up.

Hmm yes...I suppose you could say thank God for Science with a straight face too?

kABOOM! - 27-12-2005 at 18:37

In canada: as far as I am aware it is not illegal to produce/test low explosive material as long as the material is not confinded in a way that it creates an explosion. If a device if created that is made to explode it then comes under the explosives act--- and you can be charged with building a prohibited device.

Burning blackpowder- smokeless- flash-based powders is not illegal on private property. It is illegal to make explosives out of them--- without a licence.

rot - 26-1-2006 at 11:29

Quote:

Originally posted by woelen
It indeed is bad to see all kinds of reagents disappear.
In the Netherlands there is another strategy. Chemicals are becoming more and more dilute. They remain available, but only at high dilutions. This is not for reasons of drugs making (NL is quite relaxed with respect to owning precursors, such as I2, P or K2Cr2O7), but for reasons of safety. All chems must be idiot-proof. If we wait a few years more, then we only can buy flavoured water over here

I actually haven't noticed ANYTHING changing. I can still, in ordinary stores, buy 30% HCl. I can't buy 10% NaClO solution, but it can buy pure NaClO Powder (bleaching powder)
You're right about NH3 it's now 5% but it's very easy to make >25% NH3 by bubbling ammonia through water (NH4NO3 + NaOH)
H3PO4 is <8% indeed, but as far as I know it has always been this way. it's very easy to concentrate it though, first make it's sodium salt by reacting with sodium hydroxide. then mix with sulfuric acid to displace the acid and distill.
Sodium hydroxide is also available as pure white prills. I can also buy 5Kg and 20Kg Ammonium Nitrate (77% pure, easy to purify). No KNO3 but I make this very easy from ammonium nitrate and potassium chloride, wich is diet salt and I can buy this at €2 per 350g. I have no problem obtaining nearly every substance I want. there's always a way to synthese it from OTC items.

I am a fish - 26-1-2006 at 13:57

Bleaching powder contains calcium hypochlorite, not sodium hypochlorite. Furthermore, it usually isn't pure. (It's made by passing chlorine over calcium hydroxide, and this also generates calcium chloride and calcium chloride hypochlorite.)

neutrino - 26-1-2006 at 18:46

>it's very easy to concentrate it though, first make it's sodium salt by reacting with sodium hydroxide. then mix with sulfuric acid to displace the acid and distill.

I don't quite get it. You can't distill phosphoric acid nor sodium sulfate/bisulfate. Are you sure you aren't confusing paart of this with HCl?

rot - 26-1-2006 at 22:44

no, I ment phosphoric, but I didn't know you can't distill it.

woelen - 27-1-2006 at 00:14

Quote:

Originally posted by rot
I actually haven't noticed ANYTHING changing. I can still, in ordinary stores, buy 30% HCl. I can't buy 10% NaClO solution, but it can buy pure NaClO Powder (bleaching powder)
You're right about NH3 it's now 5% but it's very easy to make >25% NH3 by bubbling ammonia through water (NH4NO3 + NaOH)
H3PO4 is <8% indeed, but as far as I know it has always been this way. it's very easy to concentrate it though, first make it's sodium salt by reacting with sodium hydroxide. then mix with sulfuric acid to displace the acid and distill.
Sodium hydroxide is also available as pure white prills. I can also buy 5Kg and 20Kg Ammonium Nitrate (77% pure, easy to purify). No KNO3 but I make this very easy from ammonium nitrate and potassium chloride, wich is diet salt and I can buy this at €2 per 350g. I have no problem obtaining nearly every substance I want. there's always a way to synthese it from OTC items.

You have not known the situation of 20 years ago, when I started the chemistry hobby (inbetween I also abandoned it again and picked up again 5 years ago). But, 20 years ago, things were really different:

25% NH3 at every supermarket
10% available chlorine NaClO at every supermarket, some even had 12.5%
bleach powder (35% available chlorine, impure Ca(ClO)2/CaCl2 mix) at every supermarket
30 .. 35% HCl at every hardware store
32% or 80% acetic acid at every drugstore (food vinegar essence, to be diluted before use)
85% H3PO4 at drugstores, no need to search a long time, first shop usually was a hit
68% HNO3 at drugstores, idem
96..98% H2SO4 at drugstores, idem
Pure KMnO4, K2Cr2O7, KClO3 and KNO3 I also could buy as an 18-year old boy without problem in multiple drugstores, just in the town, where I lived. No questions, just telling me that I have to be careful with it.

At the moment, you can find 30% HCl, but it becomes harder and the shops carrying it are getting less and less.
Conc. H2SO4, I only have one reliable source left locally, hopefully they do not stop selling it.
For all other chems, I have my sources now, but they certainly are not common and a starting chemistry hobbyist needs a few years, before he has a reasonable network of sources for chemicals. Fortunately, there still is a 'hidden economy' where a lot of chems can be obtained legally, but the main public certainly does not know of this.

On the other hand, I think it is better as it is now. At the current social climate it would not be good to have potentially dangerous chems available at every street corner, so to speak. The kewls usually stop searching if they cannot find a source within 5 minutes, the real hobbyists certainly find their souces, through contacts on forums and so on and in the course of a few years most people can have the chemicals they want. But, indeed, patience is important nowadays.

[Edited on 27-1-06 by woelen]

neutrino - 27-1-2006 at 10:27

Hidden economy? Are you referring to places like brewery and lapidary suppliers that sell useful materials locally? Or are you referring to the shadier things your country is famous for...

rot - 27-1-2006 at 11:08

Hydrogen peroxide is also 3%. It's also very expensive too, €1 for 100mL. to make 1L of 30% H2O2 i'd need a 100 bottles = €100. I've not been able to find a source for more concentrated h2o2(unless ordering on the internet, I don't like that. you're easily traced)

garage chemist - 27-1-2006 at 11:42

I live near France and can simply drive over there to go shopping.

There you can get 20% ammonia solution for about 0,90€ per liter. Similar prices for 23% HCl and acetone.
Also sodium chlorate weedkiller, though the 99% stuff is banned there now, which is a shame (bought some of it just before it got banned).
But a 45% aqueous NaClO3 solution is still available and can simply be evaporated to get 99% NaClO3. Or electrolysed with some dichromate and platinum anode (Pt wire, less than 1g Pt is used) to get NaClO4 (I've built a small but powerful perchlorate cell capable of making about 500g NaClO4 a week).

woelen - 27-1-2006 at 12:07

Quote:

Originally posted by neutrino
Hidden economy? Are you referring to places like brewery and lapidary suppliers that sell useful materials locally? Or are you referring to the shadier things your country is famous for...

I refer to both. A lot of specialist companies are selling chemicals, which are quite interesting (acids, transition metal salts, sulfites/bisulfites).
Inside the EU (especially Germany I think, but also in the Netherlands) there also are quite some sellers, who apparently have more obscure sources of chemicals, which, however, form a very nice way to get a lot of chems at amazingly low prices. In this way I recently obtained 500 ml of Br2, but also NaIO4, KIO4, KIO3, SeO2, Na, Li, Ce(NO3)3, Ln(NO3)3, and a lot of other quite special chems, which cannot be obtained in any other way. Apparently there are a lot of old labs, which are shut down now with the expansion of the EU. Their chemicals are not destroyed, but have a second life in a kind of 'hidden economy'. These old chems (30+ years old) many times have Tchech, former East German, Rumanian, Russian, etc. labels. Many chems, however, even after 30 years are perfectly fine for home experiments

and the communists also were capable of making nice pure chems

.

[Edited on 27-1-06 by woelen]

Ashendale - 1-3-2006 at 11:48

Talking about 30 year old chemicals, my dad used to be a photographer (that's 30-35 years ago, when he was young), and now recently he found his old chemical supplies. I have an old bottle of NaNO3 in my hand, label says 99,8% purity, compared to my "modern" NaNO3 with 99,18% purity. I'm aware that the numbers may be false, but I do believe they are correct.
Also my school lab still has USSR time chemicals. Hey, NaCl is the same NaCl it used to be 30 years ago.
Of course, chemicals were VERY cheap compared to Western states. There was a saying that 1 ounce of well dried rubles (sp?) is worth 1 USD

And of course, chemistry sets. There was a major problem some months ago when a kid brought to school an ampule with dilute potassium cyanide, obtained from old chemistry set.

As for amateur chemistry, it isn't a problem here at all, it's almost surprising that 95% of the people who know I'm interested in chemistry say something like "Hey, that's cool, I hope you succeed in whatever you're doing" instead of "Bomb maker". My parents and teacher are both supportive, altough occasionally my mother walks into my room when I'm doing experiments and asks the same silly question I hate: "Are they dangerous?"
And for last, well, there are those kewls who occasionally blow themselves up by empting pyrotechincal rockets and mixing them in iron(!!!) tubes. But then again, you can't fight the general stupidity.

Magpie - 29-4-2007 at 13:28

My wife bought me a childrens' "Smithsonian Microchemistry" set at a yard sale. All the chemicals were in tiny bottles with childproof caps holding no more than about 2g. The kit is a mostly plastic assemblage made in China. Bottles were labeled as follows:

"WARNING" labels:

borax powder
universal indicator
magnesium sulfate
methylene blue
calcium nitrate
citric acid
ammonium chloride
sodium sulfate
copper sulfate
postassium iodide
ferrous sulfate

"DANGER" labels:

calcium hydroxide
sodium silicate
aluminum amonium sulfate
Fehling's solution
sodium carbonate
biuret reagent

"POISON - DANGER", and skull and crossed bones symbol:

cobalt chloride

In all cases the lables also had first aid instructions and direction to call the Poision Control Center.

The set was opened but never used. After looking at all the labels the poor parents were probably too terrified to even open any of the bottles.

tito-o-mac - 2-7-2007 at 02:51

Singapore boasts many new chemistry facilities such as the National Univesity of Singapore as the government has pumped in millions to boosts research on biochemistry, stem cells and nanotechnology. But for explosives, I don't think so.

MEXCHEM2006 - 2-7-2007 at 15:50

Mexico is the best place to do chemistry , you can find anything under the sun for sale.

solo - 6-7-2007 at 06:28

Stick to the question at hand:......

The best country to pursue amateur chemistry in.

The discussion is not why or the politics, as that would take the thread to another topic........solo

Home of the brave

franklyn - 6-7-2009 at 14:52

Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men
who signed the Declaration of Independence?

Five signers were captured by the British as traitors,
and tortured before they died.

Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned.
Two lost their sons serving in the Revolutionary Army;
another had two sons captured.

Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or
hardships of the Revolutionary War.

They signed and they pledge their lives, their fortunes,
and their sacred honor.

What kind of men were they?

Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists.
Eleven were merchants,
nine were farmers and large plantation owners;
men of means, well educated,
but they signed the Declaration of Independence
knowing full well that the penalty would be death if
they were captured.
Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and
trader, saw his ships swept from the seas by the
British Navy. He sold his home and properties to
pay his debts, and died in rags.

Thomas McKeam was so hounded by the British
that he was forced to move his family almost constantly.
He served in the Congress without pay, and his family
was kept in hiding. His possessions were taken from him,
and poverty was his reward.

Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery, Hall, Clymer,
Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton.

At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson, Jr., noted that
the British General Cornwallis had taken over the Nelson
home for his headquarters. He quietly urged General
George Washington to open fire. The home was destroyed,
and Nelson died bankrupt.

Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed.
The enemy jailed his wife, and she died within a few months.

John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying.
Their 13 children fled for their lives. His fields and his gristmill
were laid to waste. For more than a year he lived in forests
and caves, returning home to find his wife dead and his
children vanished.

Take a few moments while enjoying your 4th of July holiday
to remember these patriots for the price they paid.

Remember that freedom is never free!

It is for this reason I'm partial to corrupt government where
one is afforded the most egalitarian constituemcy service
that money can buy.

Magpie - 6-7-2009 at 15:59

Franklyn, that is quite a story - certainly more than I learned in my American History class in high school. There it was just about glory and sacrifice, but not the horrible details.

Just what exactly do you mean by:

Quote:

It is for this reason I'm partial to corrupt government where
one is afforded the most egalitarian constituemcy service
that money can buy.

franklyn - 7-7-2009 at 11:55

Sorry Magpie if I gave offense. I was responding to this
" The best country to pursue amateur chemistry in."

The flip side is to do just as they did on principle
not that it would behoove anyone to do so.
Practicality matters.

.

Magpie - 7-7-2009 at 14:20

No, no, franklyn...no offense taken. I was just trying to understand what you meant.

I like Colin Powell's recommendation that every US citizen should re-read the declaration of Independence every 4th of July. Yes, it is ideality. But what an ideal!

Sadly I don't feel that the US is the best place to practice amateur chemistry. Drug cookery and 9/11 have eliminated us from the top contenders.

chloric1 - 8-7-2009 at 12:17

Magpie,

I disagree. The USA is not what it used to be but socialism has Europe in its grasp and liberal policies/socialism always mean restricted freedoms. There are still ALOT of chemicals available to the sharp home chemist here. I can still buy ammonium perchlorate, nitrates,chlorates, barium, acids, alkalies, and salts in bulk. It is more difficult but doable. Remember the CPSC litigations that led to pyro restrictions? Well, certain suppliers listed there quantity restrictions opening the door for new suppliers. It really is hard to fight open market policy.

The USA has more space and potential for privicy that other countries so even if you can obtain more chemicals elseware you have to deal with a myriad of onlookers unless you experiment on a rooftop or closed garage. Some third word countries would follow close behind USA in freedom for the home chemist but USA offers more selection, opportunites to support your craft financially, and opportunites to find secluded locals to practice.

Magpie - 8-7-2009 at 12:36

Chloric 1, I really can't disagree with the points you have made. Yes, we are not as socialist as the European countries, but yet some of them allow chemicals to be bought, like Ac2O and phosphorus, by private citizens.

The thing that really bothers me about the US is the blanket policy of the mainstream suppliers that do not allow sales of chemicals to private individuals - no doubt due to government pressure. Also, the general public and government officials assume that if you have a home lab you are making illegal drugs or bombs. They make no exceptions for legitimate activity...I mean you are assumed guilty until proven innocent at great cost.

entropy51 - 8-7-2009 at 14:43

Quote: Originally posted by chloric1

The USA has more space and potential for privicy that other countries so even if you can obtain more chemicals elseware you have to deal with a myriad of onlookers unless you experiment on a rooftop or closed garage. Some third word countries would follow close behind USA in freedom for the home chemist but USA offers more selection, opportunites to support your craft financially, and opportunites to find secluded locals to practice.

Chloric, you don't have to be out in the boonies to practice amateur chemistry in private. Trust me. I know someone who engages in this activity in the middle of a very crowded metropolitan area. It just requires a strategic location of your fume hood exhaust! I suppose pyro would be different, but that's not my interest, at least not intentionally!

It seems to me that many European members of the forum have MUCH better access to chemicals than the American members.

benzylchloride1 - 8-7-2009 at 21:18

Magpie, I started with the same Smithsonian chemistry set when I was 10. I kept the chemistry set at school and conducted experiments with it. Many people thought that the chemicals were dangerous. This is the best chemistry that is currently available to the general public; it is a far cry from the old fashioned sets. In my state I can buy many chemicals; 35% H2O2, sodium hydroxide, sulfuric acid, and others. There is even a store several hours away from me in a major city that sells concentrated nitric acid to individuals, along with other chemicals and glassware. I live in a fairly remote area and most of my neighbors have seen my lab and were interested in it in a positive way.

[Edited on 9-7-2009 by benzylchloride1]

Magpie - 9-7-2009 at 07:09

from benzylchloride1:

Quote:

I live in a fairly remote area and most of my neighbors have seen my lab and were interested in it in a positive way.

I believe that in the more remote areas people are more tolerant of each other as they are more dependant on each other. They may become snowed in and their life will depend on you helping them. Also, if your lab catches on fire or you emit noxious fumes it will not affect them.

I live in a residential neiborhood on a standard city lot. I get along well with my neighbors but no way will I talk about or show them my lab. All that has to happen is that I might get crosswise with one of them and, well, you know the rest.

The only people with whom I have shared my lab is my brother (who thinks I'm just paranoid), and a trusted ex-colleague who is a chemical engineer.

I don't talk about my love of chemistry or have anything reminding visitors of this in my home. If people know any of this they will make jokes about you being a drug cook or a mad bomber. I don't give them that opportunity. My public persona is a retired guy who does a little fishing, wood working, and pottery.

watson.fawkes - 9-7-2009 at 10:16

I have de novo answer to this, which seems completely obvious to me. and I just have to get it off my chest. The best country to pursue amateur chemistry in is whatever country you happen to be in at the time.

The question being answered up-thread might properly be worded "What's the best country to move to to pursue amateur chemistry?", and that seems like a rather different question.

entropy51 - 9-7-2009 at 18:11

Magpie, "My public persona is a retired guy who does a little fishing, wood working, and pottery."

And makes a little acetic anhydride in his garage when no one is looking.

You are a true Renaissance Man of the 21st century!

We can all only aspire to such a wonderful retirement.

itchyfruit - 12-7-2009 at 16:41

I live in a small village in England and most people know i have a (lab) in my garden,i get called the mad professor(in actual fact i'm not mad and i'm certainly not a professor) and every now and again people say 'blown anything up recently' and stuff like that. But if they want a firework display i'm generally the one they ask to do it for them, our local witch (yes we have one) has recently asked me to do some stuff for her(green flash, dry ice etc)
The point i'm trying to make is that i'm very open with what i do and consequently it's accepted, i think if you hide what your doing people will think your up to something, it's up to us really to put peoples minds at rest and that should in turn keep the powers that be at bay!!

Also chemical and apparatus acquisition don't seem to be a problem i can get most things (except stupid Paris green :mad

you may occasionally have to sign a 'end user declaration' but if your not making drugs or bombs that shouldn't be an issue.

copandspeeder - 1-1-2011 at 11:50

If you google 'anhydrous ammonia unapproved container' you will find that it is actually a crime in some states. While i realize that it would be uncommon for someone to put anhydrous ammonia in a thermos for a reason other than making meth, i still think it really oversteps the spirit of 'innocent until proven guilty'.

it really shows who is being protected and who is being cruelly punished when ELEMENTS like phosphorus and iodine and lithium require a permit to purchase and expose you to the risk of having your front door smashed in and a gun shoved in your face. Meanwhile pseudoephedrine is available in every drugstore. I think the best thing they could have done was make pseudoephedrine prescription only a long time ago, but that would have hurt corporate profits. Instead they are just going to make every other thing used in meth manufacture subject to investigation. which is going to really hurt science in the usa.

who knows, maybe the cures for AIDS and cancer would have been discovered by private researchers if chemistry as a hobby were promoted the way sports and cell phones are. but the reality that some of those chemists would probably make some drugs is considered too horrible to allow. i feel that is an incredibly foolish attitude. how many discoveries have been made by accident. if you increase the number of people doing research, simple mathematics will tell you that the number of discoveries and innovations will increase.

[Edited on 1-1-2011 by copandspeeder]

Lambda-Eyde - 7-1-2011 at 14:07

Is Norway mentioned yet?

I have my own company, accounts with Fisher Scientific, Sigma-Aldrich, Chiron AS and a school supplier, I got a permission from the local police station to purchase methanol... And I'm 18.

Mixell - 14-1-2011 at 06:10

I think Israel is quite good for this purpose.
I can go and buy various chemicals like concentrated acids, nitrates and a lot of other stuff (and I'm 17 year old).
And no body really cares what you are doing, unless it directly harms other people.
I once rode a bus with a few litters of acids, a few kg of glassware and a few kg of reagents, and nobody said a thing.
the bus driver even waited in patience while I unloaded a big cardboard box full of dangerous chemicals.

Melgar - 18-2-2011 at 15:04

I'm going with India!

Not only is everything, including chemicals and glassware, dirt cheap, but there aren't a whole lot of restrictions on anything that you can't get around. Plus, they speak English, and if people know you have a room full of chemicals and glassware, they'll consider you a respectable chemist, whereas in the US people think you're cooking meth.

timez - 13-5-2011 at 17:09

How about if the police come knocking we dont try and start explaining things - we try and get them to do the exprements themseves!

?

Timez

jamit - 13-5-2011 at 23:32

The United States is one of the best country to pursue amateur chemistry... there are other nations as well, but the US is on the top 3. And I'm Canadian and proud of it too!

theflickkk - 21-5-2011 at 05:19

I'm really envious of you guys who can freely order chemicals D:
Where I live, the laws are extremely strict with regard to the purchase of reagents or sourcing for chemicals. For example, strong mineral acids such as nitric acid, sulfuric acid and hydrochloric acid are only permitted to be sold below 8% conc. Potassium/sodium/ammonium nitrate/chlorate/perchlorate/hydroxide/dichromate are all either banned or have other various regulations imposed on them. Just wondering, is anyone from Malaysia? How are the laws there?

D: I've been to the US once and the pharmacies are stocked with all sorts of chemicals D: but I couldn't fly them back... ugh

Fantasma4500 - 10-2-2013 at 14:27

Quote: Originally posted by theflickkk

I'm really envious of you guys who can freely order chemicals D:
Where I live, the laws are extremely strict with regard to the purchase of reagents or sourcing for chemicals. For example, strong mineral acids such as nitric acid, sulfuric acid and hydrochloric acid are only permitted to be sold below 8% conc. Potassium/sodium/ammonium nitrate/chlorate/perchlorate/hydroxide/dichromate are all either banned or have other various regulations imposed on them. Just wondering, is anyone from Malaysia? How are the laws there?

D: I've been to the US once and the pharmacies are stocked with all sorts of chemicals D: but I couldn't fly them back... ugh

tho you might not read this: ive been talking with an actual malaysian.. he told me that they have DEATH PENALTY for making explosives, dont know in what amounts tho but i could imagine 1-100000000 grammes..
he also said that the police doesnt really care at holidays etc. where everybody have firecrackers, they let people have fun at such times, tho.
but malaysia isnt a good place, of what i understand.. (:

Fantasma4500 - 10-2-2013 at 15:04

Australia:
i dont have much on australia, but i recall that ammonium nitrate is completely banned, somehow, and chemicals (the ones i heard about was pyrotechnic chems) are quite hard to come by..

Poland:
well.. this place along with others such as hungary shouldnt be very limited even when it comes to explosives as there doubtfully would be many terrorists having anything good of bombing a few trees and abit of grass

that means generally eastern european countries, i know Poland, Hungary, Serbia, Lithuana and also Malta should be great, money also count abit in these countries, not only most things are relatively cheap compared to wealthy countries such as scandinavia and usa

Germany:
i heard theyre much after the persons who makes explosives, like alot.. huge raids on them, not coming at them one at a time but rushing in on them all in a hour throughout whole germany, not a good choice for explosives i would say

Holland:
ive seen on a few sites that fireworks with as much as 5 grammes flashpowder are ''CE certified'' which counts for whole europe, and not 100% sure, but a guy i know told me and showed me some spinning firecrackers with 5 grammes flashpowder he bought commercially, but they have something called TFOVB which well basically goes on youtube, points out specific ''bomb-makers'' which isnt always going their way, also they state things like a cobra 6 (contains 26.5 - 28g flashpowder) has the force of a handgrenade tho theyre forgetting to say the deadly force of a handgrenade is the fragments (:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGXf-VTzLxU
''They are copying our videos without PERMISSION. THIS IS ILLEGAL!''

Belgium:
i can confirm that its possible to buy NaClO3 confirming fertilizers aswell as (KAS?) or perhaps even PURE ammonium nitrate with no problems

Denmark:
no. stay away, this isnt a good idea, very bad place if you decide to make explosives, as little as 10 grammes of explosive can be seen as an act of terrorism, or a case can be raised. skin colour affects this, strangely enough. NH4OH 25% HCl 30% acetone 100% toluene (not more?) methanol (100%?) NaOH 100% oxalic acid 100% H2SO4 (37%) HNO3 (only allowed as little as 8% i think?) are possible to buy, except for nitric acid, for some reason, or well lets say you can sometimes be lucky to find some.. perhaps.. unlikely..
bad country for chemistry in general.

Finland:
im not very sure, but i believe their gun control is quite loose, so their control about explosives shouldnt be that serious (when compared to very serious countries as denmark) a possibility if you can speak finnish.

England:
small firecrackers (0.5g?) can be bought for scaring away birds from farm places, so thats always some start, also i believe ive heard that as much as 0.5g firecrackers are legal to make. about chemicals im not very sure but theres several persons i know distributing chemicals and the stuff alike in the UK

Russia:
lets just take it that people in russia doesnt really care, or well compared to hysterical countries in europe.
a guy i talked with usually let off 500 grammes of ammonal in a urban place between the blocks on the grass, lots of times, so supposedly not that much hysteria.

Vietnam:
one of my favorites, but i havent gotten any of this approved.
i was told that you can order whatever you want home, but theres one thing they do control, and thats acids.. you basically just have to write on a piece of paper your name and what other information is needed, but fertilizers arent controlled, possibly due to they have no reason to fear terrorists?
sounds like a paradise for chemists, if it is true. bad about this would perhaps be not everybody in vietnam speaks english.. but they have an explosives forum, so it shouldnt be death penalty for creating explosives?

Malaysia:
Death penalty for explosives

so to conclude: if you live around europe, moving to eastern european parts might be the choice if you can get some money with you, or perhaps just further south.. basically away from north. (:

please confirm/deny/correct if you see some mistakes / misinformations

just abit extra: a serbian guy i talked to blew about 1.1 kg ammonal up at his neighbours tree (a huge tree) it wasnt blown into pieces, him and his friend went to tell him about it (the neighbour) and he did nothing else but just laughed abit, thats about the mentality in small villages in serbia about explosives, dont know if this counts for WHOLE serbia.. but this is the kind of community that would be great to have if you want to make explosives

Serbia

Acidum - 2-5-2013 at 12:48

I saw someone mentioned Serbia and surrounding countries, and I would like to give some inside informations (well, this sounds awful...insight is more appropriate).

Science in Serbia is neglected and very hard to practice, both professional and amateur. Economic situation is very difficult. But even if we had money, there are almost no chemicals and apparatus sellers in Serbia that are willing to trade with persons (companies only). Scarcity of chemicals is far greater than in western countries, and sharpening of laws is not becoming helpful at all... Past few years it has become impossible to buy 96% ethanol, hydrogen-peroxide above 12% (and that one emulsified), and any other clean chemical (including menthol

). HCl gets only as a yellow 8% solution, and I do not know when I last saw NaOH (used to be in color stores, or whatever You call them). Some say that You could buy sulphuric acid for car batteries, but I haven't seen it. Methanol, or any other organic solvent is a no-go. Nitric acid also. You can at least buy 80% acetic in every supermarket.

As for amateur chemistry, if You find a way to buy, "get", isolate, purify or synthesize pure chemicals, as long as You don't do anything utterly stupid and reckless (as blowing a pipe bomb in front of other people), You can easily pursue scientific satisfaction in gray area. I have been practicing it without single LE visit. Bureaucracy in Serbia is a flesh-soul-and-money-eating dinosaur, and any try of legalizing amateur research lab without some serious money involved (only for permissions and stuff) is "fart in a barrel"...

Bottom line - if You have knowledge and skills You can do amateur science in Serbia in gray area.

[Edited on 2-5-2013 by Acidum]

[Edited on 2-5-2013 by Acidum]

CHINA!!!

Deathunter88 - 5-4-2015 at 00:31

I would say the best country to pursue amateur chemistry would be China. Glassware is about 5 times cheaper than America, chemical cost is virtually nonexistent. There is a amazon.com like online store website except less regulated. Anyone can register a shop there for a small fee. There are literally hundreds and hundreds of chemical shops, all owned by individual people. The amazing thing is, they all have phone numbers so if you want something that is not listed, just give them a call. They can tell you if they have it and is willing to send it to you. Because there are hundreds of seller, if one person doesn't have a reagent just ask another seller.

Cou - 5-4-2015 at 05:53

Iran is also one of the best countries for amateur chemistry. But the downside is that since Iran is socialist/third world, its quite hard to find online chemistry shops, and to find a brick-and-mortar shop you'd have to window shop through tons of tiny mom-and-pop shops for a long time. Not very many online businesses or chains.

Portugal

HgDinis25 - 7-4-2015 at 08:05

I don't know if Portugal has already been discussed here but I'll go ahead and state a few things.

Portugal is a small country that is in the middle of a crisis. Getting a research job is almost impossible. Getting a job, actually, is getting harder and harder. So, for money, Portugal isn't a good option.

However, I've been practicing chemistry quite freely. I can buy relatively pure 33% Hydrochloric Acid in most hardware stores for about 1,5€, 1L. I can buy 98% Sulfuric Acid in most hardware stores for about 3€, 1L. Sodium Hydroxide is easily bought everywhere because it is used as a drain cleaner. I can buy it as powder or solution, about 2€ for a Kilogram.

Some hardware stores also sell 60% Nitric Acid for 2,5€, 1L. Sulfur is easily available everywhere dirt cheap, however not pure (Flowers of Sulfur).

Acetone is available freely. Toluene and MEK may be extracted from certain paint thinners. Some stores sell Hexane and Xylene. I can even order 50% Hydrogen Peroxide at the incredible price of 1,5€, 1L.

This goes to say that general chemicals are freely available around here. Also, there aren't any laws regulating this kind of chemicals, which is very good.

Glassware isn't as easy to obtain. However, I know of at least two companies who deal with individuals with all kinds of glassware and chemicals. Also, no regulations here, at least that I am aware of.

If I can get a good job here, after leaving college I might actually stick around. Portugal might be a good choice for Amateur Chemistry. I only hope that it stays that way.

Cou - 7-4-2015 at 12:55

Quote: Originally posted by HgDinis25

I don't know if Portugal has already been discussed here but I'll go ahead and state a few things.

Portugal is a small country that is in the middle of a crisis. Getting a research job is almost impossible. Getting a job, actually, is getting harder and harder. So, for money, Portugal isn't a good option.

However, I've been practicing chemistry quite freely. I can buy relatively pure 33% Hydrochloric Acid in most hardware stores for about 1,5€, 1L. I can buy 98% Sulfuric Acid in most hardware stores for about 3€, 1L. Sodium Hydroxide is easily bought everywhere because it is used as a drain cleaner. I can buy it as powder or solution, about 2€ for a Kilogram.

Some hardware stores also sell 60% Nitric Acid for 2,5€, 1L. Sulfur is easily available everywhere dirt cheap, however not pure (Flowers of Sulfur).

Acetone is available freely. Toluene and MEK may be extracted from certain paint thinners. Some stores sell Hexane and Xylene. I can even order 50% Hydrogen Peroxide at the incredible price of 1,5€, 1L.

This goes to say that general chemicals are freely available around here. Also, there aren't any laws regulating this kind of chemicals, which is very good.

Glassware isn't as easy to obtain. However, I know of at least two companies who deal with individuals with all kinds of glassware and chemicals. Also, no regulations here, at least that I am aware of.

If I can get a good job here, after leaving college I might actually stick around. Portugal might be a good choice for Amateur Chemistry. I only hope that it stays that way.

Everything you listed is also OTC in USA hardware stores such as lowes, except for maybe 98% sulfuric acid. Now, as for if buying acetone, HCl, and Nash at the same time will put you on a watch list, or at least get weird looks from the employees...

HgDinis25 - 7-4-2015 at 13:06

60% Nitric Acid OTC in the USA? 50% Hydrogen Peroxide OTC in the USA? Are you serious?

[Edited on 7-4-2015 by HgDinis25]

Cou - 7-4-2015 at 13:32

Quote: Originally posted by HgDinis25

60% Nitric Acid OTC in the USA? 50% Hydrogen Peroxide OTC in the USA? Are you serious?

[Edited on 7-4-2015 by HgDinis25]

Oh, I didn't see those in your post. Those are not available in the US either.

HgDinis25 - 7-4-2015 at 13:36

Quote: Originally posted by Cou

Quote: Originally posted by HgDinis25

60% Nitric Acid OTC in the USA? 50% Hydrogen Peroxide OTC in the USA? Are you serious?

[Edited on 7-4-2015 by HgDinis25]

Oh, I didn't see those in your post. Those are not available in the US either.

I can continue with some even more interesting chemicals (that I have never bought). Like Sodium Cyanide sold in kilogram bags...

Magpie - 7-4-2015 at 13:41

Quote: Originally posted by HgDinis25

I can continue with some even more interesting chemicals (that I have never bought). Like Sodium Cyanide sold in kilogram bags...

Portugal sounds like an amateur chemists heaven. By far the best country yet for chemicals and the freedom to experiment.

But I think the USA is tops for getting glassware and other non-chemical supplies as we have a huge and responsive industrial base.

[Edited on 7-4-2015 by Magpie]

HgDinis25 - 7-4-2015 at 14:15

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie

Quote: Originally posted by HgDinis25

I can continue with some even more interesting chemicals (that I have never bought). Like Sodium Cyanide sold in kilogram bags...

True, indeed. Actually, a nice set of scientists/researchers graduates every year in our universities. Unfortunately, most of them go look for a job abroad because of our country's crisis.

Magpie - 7-4-2015 at 15:16

I am remembering now that most of the former Soviet bloc countries in East Europe are also good places to get chemicals. I'm not sure about their freedom to experiment, however.

Cou - 7-4-2015 at 15:18

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie

I am remembering now that most of the former Soviet bloc countries in East Europe are also good places to get chemicals. I'm not sure about their freedom to experiment, however.

So, second world and third world countries.

APO - 7-4-2015 at 21:34

HgDinis25, could you provide some photographic proof of the OTC 60% nitric acid, 50% hydrogen peroxide, and kilo sodium cyanide bags? I'm not trying to say you're a liar or anything, that just sounds like an incredible sight to say the least. Please tell us more

Chemosynthesis - 7-4-2015 at 22:25

Cyanide doesn't surprise me. Other than state laws, I believe the only federal regulations in the US are due to mining and pollution. I don't believe that has changed, but regulations in other areas have clearly become more severe. Since the I see energetics mentioned frequently, I remember that one used to be able to purchase them over the counter with a simple ID in many regions in the US.

HgDinis25 - 8-4-2015 at 04:02

Quote: Originally posted by APO

HgDinis25, could you provide some photographic proof of the OTC 60% nitric acid, 50% hydrogen peroxide, and kilo sodium cyanide bags? I'm not trying to say you're a liar or anything, that just sounds like an incredible sight to say the least. Please tell us more

Of course! However, I've never bought Sodium Cyanide (I think you just gave me an excuse to spend the money and buy it

). For the others, in about two hours I'll put the photos here.

While we wait, what do you wish to know more? If you want to know about more OTC chemicals just ask away...

EDIT

The photos are here.

Hydrogen Peroxide 50%
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bvri546no9wy57z/SAM_0841.JPG?dl=0

Nitric Acid 60%
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6xzyku755vv9tsc/SAM_0843.JPG?dl=0

The bottle is mine as is the label. For further proof, my syntheis of Nitrocellulose (with said acid) and a video of it burning:

https://hobbychemistry.wordpress.com/2015/04/03/synthesis-of...

And an extra, Glacial Acetic Acid, 2€, 1L:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7qiymnf2rr2rqke/SAM_0844.JPG?dl=0

[Edited on 8-4-2015 by HgDinis25]

[Edited on 8-4-2015 by HgDinis25]

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