Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Druken Aga Challenge (DAC) #3 - Closed (but open to discussion)

Any Store that Normal (i.e. non chemists visit) are Ok.

Remember that the procedure must be repeatable, so if your local store has a Sale of Cheese Slices that are actually 100% nitric, then no banana.

FECK

Arcuritech - 23-11-2014 at 17:39

Would anyone interested in chemistry NOT have distillation kit ?
Or an Allhin condenser or a Vigreux column ?

Next they'll be asking if a buchner filter is OK ...

What if you don't have any of those things cause you're poor as hell and can't spare money for glass that you can trust not to crack under heat?

Oscilllator - 23-11-2014 at 17:52

Quote: Originally posted by Arcuritech

What if you don't have any of those things cause you're poor as hell and can't spare money for glass that you can trust not to crack under heat?

I made my first red fuming nitric acid using a glass tube from a fluorescent bulb, some PVC pipe to form a water jacket, some garden hose, and a $15 filter flask. The nitric acid was high enough quality that I was able to make 2 cottonballs of nitrocellulose that I could ignite on my hand without getting burnt.

mayko - 23-11-2014 at 19:07

Any Voltage > (110 * 1.41) V.

Does this mean no static electricity, which is on the order of kilovolts?

Metacelsus - 23-11-2014 at 19:08

Yes. Anti-static bracelets must be worn at all times.

After all, alcohol is very flammable; we wouldn't want Aga catching on fire while replicating it.

But seriously, the standard for domestic outlets in Europe is 220 V AC, and it might be hard for European members to do the challenge if it's limited below that.

[Edited on 24-11-2014 by Cheddite Cheese]

Oscilllator - 23-11-2014 at 19:16

Its 240V in Australia but I'm sure Aga meant that we could use mains power, just that we weren't allowed to step it up to a couple thousand volts to make a birkland-eyde reactor.

WGTR - 23-11-2014 at 22:24

The Great Drunken One will have to clear up this question with his words of wisdom, but I think he is saying that step one of the project can't be "Now, simply climb a telephone pole and hook some wires up to the 10,000V line...", or "put a long rod in the air and wait for a lightning storm to come by...", or even "now hire an electrician to install 440V in your lab..." It has to be practical.

I plan on putting some thought into this project in the coming weeks. I have exams, essays, and work to do, so things might be a little busy until mid December. I'll run some ideas past aga before getting too involved, but I have the same sort of goal in this; that is, to make this project attainable to a wide variety of people. Some technical skill would be required for the idea that I'm thinking of. A trained squirrel wouldn't be able to do it (do we have any squirrels here?). At the same time, the parts would be widely available, and the project would be documented well enough to make it look easy.

aga - 24-11-2014 at 00:31

Go on then.

No more Volts than the standard domestic AC mains supply voltage in your location, or the DC version of that.

If you have access to a 6volt 2000A supply, that wouldn't be Repeatable, and would vapourise the bannana.

j_sum1 - 24-11-2014 at 03:44

aga, love this challenge. So practical. Even if I don't play, the write-ups will be extremely valuable.

Are we necessarily limited to the supermarket or are we allowed to visit the hardware store, garden centre or pharmacist?

blogfast25 - 24-11-2014 at 05:56

Quote: Originally posted by Arcuritech

What if you don't have any of those things cause you're poor as hell and can't spare money for glass that you can trust not to crack under heat?

If you can't afford running shoes don't enter a running competition.

One can try and create a level playing field but it will never be as flat as a new parking lot.

"Some animals are more equal than other animals."

Nice challenge, Oh Drunken One. Now you need some takers!

[Edited on 24-11-2014 by blogfast25]

Metacelsus - 24-11-2014 at 07:30

aga, love this challenge. So practical. Even if I don't play, the write-ups will be extremely valuable.

Are we necessarily limited to the supermarket or are we allowed to visit the hardware store, garden centre or pharmacist?

Aga said "any shop where normal people go," so I think a hardware store would be fine. I can get sulfuric acid at a local hardware store, and fertilizer at a garden store, which will make the challenge pretty easy.

WGTR - 24-11-2014 at 07:43

Unless the store-bought fertilizer was a non-nitrate salt, it probably wouldn't count for the competition. The point is that nitrates are about as difficult to buy as nitric acid in some areas. If, however, you harvested nitrates from your local source of bat guano, perhaps that would count. At least that's what I gather from the rules.

plante1999 - 24-11-2014 at 07:46

I would like to mention that allowing the use of Transformer to make birkeland reactor would probably be a good thing. If we shorten the rules we get:

- No nitrates
- No High voltage
- No quartz tube

To be honest, with theses three rules alone you almost ruled out the possibility something will be posted.

Zyklon-A - 24-11-2014 at 07:47

Yeah, he said "Prohibited Reagents: All chemicals that can be bought in their pure or pure-ish form" This should include both sulfuric acid and pure nitrates. How about using oxidizing nylon?
It can be hydrolyzed in either very hot water or an acid like so:

[click to see]
I'm not sure how the nitrogen could be isolated without reducing it back to N₂, nylon doesn't burn, but after hydrolyzation it might do something. It's worth a shot.
I realize I shouldn't be giving away possible methods, but I doubt I will be able to do this myself, with my lack of free-time... :mad:

[Edited on 24-11-2014 by Zyklon-A]

Praxichys - 24-11-2014 at 09:15

Potting soil should contain the required bacteria to convert ammonia to hydroxylamine and then to nitrate. This is the fate of anhydrous ammonia after it is injected into soil for farming.

Hypothetically, a periodically-aireated mound of potting soil kept out of the weather, sprinkled with urine daily, will begin to effloresce with nitrates after a few months. These are then leached out of the soil, the liquor filtered, and then boiled down to a syrup of nitrates. Most of the chlorides are filtered out, and all that is needed is to add sulfuric acid (or perhaps phosphoric) to the syrup and distill to recover nitric acid.

If you want to house a fetid pile of piss-soaked soil somewhere, and have the unique pleasure of turning it daily, that is.

Even worse than that - Hypothetically, a fermenter is constructed from a plastic bucket and a handful of soil as added as a starter culture. All urine generated in the household goes into the bucket daily. A fishtank air pump keeps it aireated while the bacteria convert the urea into nitrates. I would NOT want to be the guy who has to boil that mess down to a syrup.

But perhaps more pleasantly, the same effect could be achieved by sprinkling the soil - or feeding the fermenter - with a prepared weak solution of urea, as long as urea is not prohibited by this competition. Diesel exhaust fluid is a quite pure solution of urea in distilled water, and might work well.

As fun as peeing in a cup for 5 months sounds (and convincing the girlfriend to do the same... for science?), I will not be able to start this until the weather warms up. (This is NOT a basement activity!) If there are no winners by April, I will officially give this a try.

With pee, of course.

aga - 24-11-2014 at 09:23

You can't just Buy sulphuric acid, nor nitrate-based fertilizers to then go down the well-trodden 'distill to get conc nitric' route.

Even I could do that, so it would certainly not be challenging to you.

If you were to Make Sulphuric, concentrate it, and Make Nitrates, then distill, that'd be more like it.

The 'can't buy pure chemicals rule' does not include table salt, water, vinegar, booze, fags, hamburgers - stuff like that.

Bat guano would be fine, so long as the process includes details of where you might find bat dung.
Presumably in the Bat Cave, all over the Bat Mobile's windscreen.

Think more like McGuyver.

Edit:

If January is too short a time, then there need be no Closing date.

If there are No entries before January, the challenge will stay open until the beer runs out, which doesn't look like anytime soon.

[Edited on 24-11-2014 by aga]

Little_Ghost_again - 24-11-2014 at 09:51

Ok I am up for this, From the bat comment I am going down the chicken shit route, no seriously we have chickens! there do do is very high in nitrogen. So count me in

aga - 24-11-2014 at 10:43

Cool.

Bat Man versus Chicken Ghost in the battle of the doo doo ...

Texium - 24-11-2014 at 12:32

Interesting. When I first saw this, I thought "Wow, aga must be really drunk if he's going to give away that much money just for making nitric acid!" then I read the rules and realized that this competition is a lot more difficult and involved than it first appears. I will try it, but I don't know exactly where to start since it's actually a lot easier for me to get ahold of pure nitrates and sulfuric acid than other less convenient materials...

Little_Ghost_again - 24-11-2014 at 14:20

Well the way I see it chicken whats it is very high in nitrogen, so there has to be a start point there somewhere.
The cheese would have been easier

.
We got a pigeon loft as well that hasnt been touched in 60 odd years! there is hundreds up there, maybe thats worth a look. Ok off to do some erm digging!

Zyklon-A - 24-11-2014 at 16:04

Objective: Make at least 100ml of 30w% Nitric Acid in the easiest and cheapest way possible.

How about making at least .56 moles of nitric acid in any concentration ( at or above 30w%)? This figure is equivalent to 100mL of 30% nitric acid, but leaves out the necessity of diluting it should it be produced in a higher concentration - which would be going backwards relative most common uses for NA.
I imagine this to be implied, but wanted to clarify in case.

aga - 24-11-2014 at 16:53

At this time of beer, i actually fail to understand the Question.

I'll read it properly tomorrow.

The Objective is to make a Useful amount, like in a bottle, which you can use some, and there's still some left in the bottle, and not just a drop.

Oh. While we're at it, any process that will take half a lifetime to make 100ml will be a bit pointless too, as by the time the process is verified, we'll all be dead( 0.5 lifetime * 2 = 1 lifetime).

c+=7;

Zyklon-A - 24-11-2014 at 17:46

OK, I'll explain in terms of liquor: If one beer can = one vodka shot = two happiness points (probably wrong) and if the challenge was to produce two beer cans (four happiness points), then would it be OK to produce two shots of vodka (also four happiness points) and not have to dilute it to the piss tasting liquid slugged by 41% of Americans on a simi-regular basis.

Little_Ghost_again - 24-11-2014 at 17:51

Quote: Originally posted by Zyklon-A

OK, I'll explain in terms of liquor: If one beer can = one vodka shot = two happiness points (probably wrong) and if the challenge was to produce two beer cans (four happiness points), then would it be OK to produce two shots of vodka (also four happiness points) and not have to dilute it to the piss tasting liquid slugged by 41% of Americans on a simi-regular basis.

Yeah I would think so because you could dilute the vodka to beer levels easy enough.

Amos - 25-11-2014 at 13:46

Crude potassium nitrate can be produced from the soluble portion of wood ashes (which contains potassium carbonate) and the calcium that can be crystallized, as has been said earlier, from fermented urine or dung. Then you can calcine it with the proper minerals in a retort or use homemade sulfuric produced from sulfide ores and distill out the old fashioned aqua fortis used by alchemists.

j_sum1 - 25-11-2014 at 14:27

We're going all alchemy here. I never interpreted it like that.
I thought the objective was convenience rather than low tech. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't see any prohibition against nitrates per se -- provided they may be found at the supermarket and are not pure or concentrated. I assumed that pot-plant fertiliser from aisle 19 would be allowed.

Aga, care to clarify?

Little_Ghost_again - 25-11-2014 at 15:08

We're going all alchemy here. I never interpreted it like that.
I thought the objective was convenience rather than low tech. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't see any prohibition against nitrates per se -- provided they may be found at the supermarket and are not pure or concentrated. I assumed that pot-plant fertiliser from aisle 19 would be allowed.

Aga, care to clarify?

If it was then so would be sulphur from the garden center or whatever, I think the point being just because you can get X fertilizer from Y shop in Z isle dosnt mean everyone can. I thought the point of the challenge was to come up with a method that makes it possible for just about anyone. Not every region or country allows nitrates in fertilizers as such.
The prize is pretty high so I would expect the challenge to be just that, a challenge! As soon as you start using nitrates etc in fertilizers you get into a situation where someone somewhere wont be able to get it. I see it more like a desert island situation, get creative use whats around you or easy to get. 250 Eruo is worth some effort surely?
As has been said pissing in a paint can will get you nitrates, ok not everyone has a pot to piss in, but they could use a compost pile.
Just my 1 Euro. Actually I think its pretty clever challenge, its a real test of ingenuity. I can get the nitrates bit but some the other parts are proving a bit tricky.

aga - 25-11-2014 at 15:23

Lo-tech will work better.
Just-buy-some-hi-tech will not work at all.

Sulphur is generally pretty pure, so No, sulphur from a shop, or travelling gypsy, is not allowed.

There *are* other ways than to just distill a nitrate with conc sulphuric, or zap the air for a while.

Seeking to make a nitrate and also sulphuric from stuff other than Ebay is a definite sign of Stale Thinking, as if that's the Only Way.

Think Outside what you already know.

Apply what you know to HNO₃ and walk backwards from the lab, and out into the real world, with eyes still focussed on the HNO₃.

The objective is what it is, so if you make super pure nitric from a car tyre and a bullfrog, it must be diluted to piss-weak strength for the 100ml photo (or you can cheat for the photo and nobody would ever know)

j_sum1 - 25-11-2014 at 15:44

Ok. I stand clarified.

[scurries off to buy some floor cleaner and some high protein skim milk powder]

aga - 25-11-2014 at 15:53

[scurries off to buy some floor cleaner and some high protein skim milk powder]

I stand in Awe of expert Chefs who can make a delicious meal from almost Any ingredients.

Michelin Stars were originally awarded to Chefs who could make Boef Bouginon from old car tyres.

1 Star was a bit rubbery.

j_sum1 - 25-11-2014 at 16:27

[scurries off to buy some floor cleaner and some high protein skim milk powder]

Definitely 1 star!

aga - 26-11-2014 at 14:40

Nobody found the French method yet ?

j_sum1 - 26-11-2014 at 15:30

Nobody found the French method yet ?

I see you have found a practical application for your wife's horses.

Me, I think I will use bullshit and follow this procedure.

I'm sure to win this one!

Zyklon-A - 28-11-2014 at 10:57

Oh, duh! *Fixed* nitrogen from air, and energy from wood. Why didn't I think of this?!

APO - 28-11-2014 at 18:49

You realize the french method takes roughly a year...

j_sum1 - 28-11-2014 at 21:40

Quote: Originally posted by APO

You realize the french method takes roughly a year...

Yeah. I think I will forgo the biological waste products route and instead focus on commonly available supermarket products. It is going to be a bit of a gamble because OTC compounds vary so much from place to place.
Still, the stated goal is to have a simple procedure starting from items that are readily available to most people worldwide. That goal interests me.

Metacelsus - 29-11-2014 at 07:58

If I buy fertilizer that contains nitrate salts, but is contaminated with other stuff (urea, ammonium sulfate, potassium salts, etc.), can I still use it for this challenge? The fertilizer I'm thinking of is about 40% ammonium nitrate.

Also, I think I have found a way that, though inefficient, should be remarkably easy.

[Edited on 29-11-2014 by Cheddite Cheese]

APO - 29-11-2014 at 18:57

Aga says no nitrates period.

j_sum1 - 29-11-2014 at 19:52

In most parts of Oz, OTC fertilisers are restricted to 7.8% nitrates anyway. Fertiliser just isn't that practical a source for us here.
I have some other thoughts in mind but I still need to do some reading. It might not be practical for me anyway. But I will be interested in the submissions when they come in. Bound to be some clever ideas.

WGTR - 29-11-2014 at 20:43

Think about it this way: If it were possible to make nitric acid out of table salt, one could always have nitric acid when needed. Table salt will never be restricted or banned in any (normal) country of the world. It has so many uses in the home that it is available in any store. It is also cheap. Those are the ideas.

One might have access to nitrate-based fertilizer, but what if one's store stops selling it? Availability of nitrates varies widely from one locality/country to the next. Urea is, as far as I know, the default fertilizer that is available everywhere that ammonia and nitrates aren't. It is gradually replacing nitrates in various applications. One's instant cold pack might be ammonium nitrate one month, and then something else the next.

I think the idea is to improve the availability of nitric acid to the common amateur chemist. This can be done by developing a usable method that uses common OTC materials that anyone can practically acquire.

As seen from aga's original post, the idea isn't to make large quantities, or to make very concentrated acid. As such, the ideas that result from the competition will (hopefully) be of limited use to someone who wants to do damage to something or someone else.

Personally, I use nitric acid to partially oxidize various alcohols, as part of my work in synthesizing imidazolium-based ionic liquids. A liter of acid every week would basically equate to $100's of dollars worth of ILs. These ILs are generally unavailable unless one does business with Fisher.

Oscilllator - 29-11-2014 at 22:10

In most parts of Oz, OTC fertilisers are restricted to 7.8% nitrates anyway.

[derail]
Since when? 3 years ago I walked into a fertiliser/agricultural shop in sydney and bought a 25kg sack of KNO3, no questions asked. Have things changed since then?
[/derail]

j_sum1 - 29-11-2014 at 22:37

I looked at a packet of fertilizer in the supermarket today. It had two separate labels on it depending on sale location. 7.8% for all states except WA. 20.2% Nitrates if sold in WA. I did not see any other products that had higher nitrate content. (Nor do I recall seeing any recently.) I inferred that there must be some regulatory restrictions to have duplicate labels like that. It might be a supermarket thing. (I would expect something a bit different for an agricultural supplier but that would definitely be outside the scope of this challenge.)
I am sure someone more knowledgeable will be around to correct my assumption.

cpman - 30-11-2014 at 11:27

Does guano from the largest urban bat colony in the world count as OTC?
I'm only 4 miles from it and the soil under it is surely enriched with nitrates...

forgottenpassword - 30-11-2014 at 11:29

Only if someone gives it you over a counter. Picking it up yourself just isn't OTC!

Metacelsus - 30-11-2014 at 11:46

Regarding the fact that some people can only obtain fertilizers with a low nitrate content (7.8%), as long as the fertilizers can be purified, that's not really a problem.

I think nitrate salts are pretty much the only viable starting material, since the Birkeland-Eyde and Ostwald processes are out of the picture. Ammonium salts and urea are the only other common sources of fixed nitrogen, and bacteria are the only low-resource way to get those to nitrates (chemical oxidation of ammonia requires catalysts that don't meet the challenge requirements).

I'll give away my process, if anyone else wants to try it:

Calcium nitrate decomposes when strongly heated, and one of the products is nitrogen dioxide gas. Using lime made from limestone where I live, and ammonium nitrate from fertilizer, I can get calcium nitrate. I then can heat it until it decomposes and absorb the gas in water. Using sulfuric acid and distilling would be more efficient, but this method doesn't require any acids at all.

[Edited on 30-11-2014 by Cheddite Cheese]

Texium - 30-11-2014 at 12:03

Quote: Originally posted by cpman

Does guano from the largest urban bat colony in the world count as OTC?
I'm only 4 miles from it and the soil under it is surely enriched with nitrates...

Hmm... good idea... I might have to get down there too if it's allowed.
It would be nice if it counts, although it is somewhat of a "local specialty" being as most cities don't have bridges full of bats. Aga?

[Edited on 11-30-2014 by zts16]

Little_Ghost_again - 30-11-2014 at 12:43

Quote: Originally posted by cpman

Does guano from the largest urban bat colony in the world count as OTC?
I'm only 4 miles from it and the soil under it is surely enriched with nitrates...

yeah must be OK as it is OTC Out The Cave

unionised - 30-11-2014 at 12:44

Having given our ghostly friend a while to play with chicken shit, I will now point out that their metabolism is different; they don't produce urea and he may be barking up the wrong tree.
It's possible that the uric acid will be converted to nitrate by some bacterium or bacteria.

If it stinks of ammonia you should be OK
(that's not a phrase you get to use very often.

Little_Ghost_again - 1-12-2014 at 12:00

Having given our ghostly friend a while to play with chicken shit, I will now point out that their metabolism is different; they don't produce urea and he may be barking up the wrong tree.
It's possible that the uric acid will be converted to nitrate by some bacterium or bacteria.

If it stinks of ammonia you should be OK
(that's not a phrase you get to use very often.

You have just given away three facts about yourself!
1) you have never had an allotment! allotment holder bug chicken keepers non stop for chicken shit. A

2) you have never ever ever cleaned out a medium to large chicken house!! if you dont do it often or use the deep litter method your eyes STREAM with the ammonia

3) You dont know the white bit in bird poo is urea

Chicken shit is world class fertilizer because of its extremely high nitrogen content.
Go visit a chicken farm man you can the ammonia for miles!!

gdflp - 1-12-2014 at 12:04

3) You dont know the white bit in bird poo is urea

He doesn't for good reason, it's uric acid.

Mesa - 1-12-2014 at 12:58

At the risk of inviting ridicule at the incredible waste of an expensive resource, my first thought was to use the high alkaloid content of some trees growing a block away from my house(A. Obtusifolia) and attempt some inefficient path back to NO2- from there. Probably less hassle to just steal a kilo of kava from my Dad next time I'm around there.

Is this route a complete pipe dream? Or is there any feasability(Not withstanding the economic factors)

Little_Ghost_again - 2-12-2014 at 02:42

Quote: Originally posted by gdflp

3) You dont know the white bit in bird poo is urea

He doesn't for good reason, it's uric acid.

Yeah ok I will give you that, the point still stands that chicken shit gives off plenty ammonia.

deltaH - 2-12-2014 at 06:50

From one of my favorite old school websites, a brilliant and simple resource for home grown nitrate:
http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/saltpeter.html

The rest of that site about the science of black powder and the handgonnes (not a spelling error) is mind blowing (excuse the pun).

[Edited on 2-12-2014 by deltaH]

Little_Ghost_again - 3-12-2014 at 06:37

Ok, I have had a book mysteriously appear! Well the postman delivered it but I have not the faintest clue where it came from, Now I need a rule check........... The book is Nitrogen as an Ecological Factor, by J.A.Lee etal.
Havnt read it yet (only just got it), now slightly scared! I might open it to find out chicken shit is just crap, or it might confirm my thoughts???? Hmmmmm
Anyway Thank you to whoever sent it!! I love my books, and ecology and chemistry combined is perfect. I have a feeling leaving Devon was a bad idea, we had a deep litter system there. Here in Scotland the litter is only 12 months old, reading a few select pages does not sound like I am gonna get the nitrate I want from it.
SHIT SHIT SHIT..........Marker pen back out and more drawing on the window!

Thanks for the book! U2U me if your responsible! Actually flicking through its a great book

aga - 3-12-2014 at 10:55

Perhaps the book is full of Nitrogen ?

unionised - 3-12-2014 at 11:36

Chicken shit is world class fertilizer because of its extremely high nitrogen content.
Go visit a chicken farm man you can the ammonia for miles!!

I never had an allotment- but I have a garden. I buy cheap fertiliser based on urea. I'm not prepared to make a big song and dance about using "organic" fertiliser.
I grew up in a house next to a field full of chickens- but they were free range. I have been in a shed with 2000 young chicks- I don't remember it smelling that bad (it was 40 years ago so I might not recall) Perhaps they cleaned it out more often
and, as has been pointed out, when I say that bird metabolism is different, you might want to look at my reputation here and check your "facts" before telling me I'm wrong.
The last time I had occasion to check it was in the related issue of iguana droppings- it's a long story.

Little_Ghost_again - 3-12-2014 at 12:39

Chicken shit is world class fertilizer because of its extremely high nitrogen content.
Go visit a chicken farm man you can the ammonia for miles!!

Well you took that the wrong way or got out of bed the wrong side!! Chicken sheds not cleaned properly or not using deep litter stink of ammonia, I dont know or care what causes it, but its there. Using chicken shit on a garden has nothing to do with organics, its simply one the best ferts you can use.
I am really sorry to hear your not often wrong, and I hope this time hasnt traumatized you too much

.
I respect you BUT I am soooooo sure on chicken shit lets go dig and see who is correct! If I am wrong then I will eat a cup of it on video.
ours free range as well, but we get plenty poo over night under the roosts, we swapped to deep litter ages ago and you get a fantastic compost, but the garden people like it raw and like to rot it down with hay, we use saw dust.
Thats given me an idea with sand and a bucket!
As a side note what would the best way to analyze chicken shit with a GC be? I could then quantize the amount per g of each component, then compare with some thats started to compost.

Etaoin Shrdlu - 3-12-2014 at 17:11

It is uric acid yes, not urea, and it does indeed decompose to ammonia.

http://www.academia.edu/1799968/AMMONIA_EMISSION_FROM_POULTR...

WGTR - 3-12-2014 at 17:53

I read the regular updates in this thread with great enjoyment. While the concept of harvesting nitrates from bird crap is a fascinating one, it doesn't personally appeal to me. I suppose this is due to the need for handling, well, crap. I have a family of cats living with me right now (and I can't seem to get rid of them). Once I scoop the remains of whatever I fed them the night before from their litter box, I never want to see that crap again.

I'm more of an electronics guy than anything else. I live my daily life in a lab surrounded by cabinets full of electronic components and test equipment. Personally, I'm going to go the Birkeland-Eyde route. Maybe it won't fit the rules of the competition, but then again, I wouldn't accept money even if I won anyway. If someone else thinks they can do this better than me, then feel free to jump in there and do it. I'm not claiming pre-eminence on this particular idea. I plan on converting 120VAC to DC, then converting to a high frequency sine wave. The high frequency is to keep the arc plasma from extinguishing between half cycles. The output voltage would be about 60VAC open circuit, but the voltage should rise across the arc when it gets blown out by the magnetic field.

All of the parts would be common, available from multiple sources, and fairly inexpensive. The idea isn't, "Now buy an expensive transformer". Instead, the idea is, "Buy these ordinary components from one of several suppliers, and make your own transformer."

In the interest of designing something that other people can duplicate, I'll deliberately keep the design simple. I can design with parts that are available from suppliers in both the US and Europe. If anyone else has a favorite supplier in a different country, I can try and make sure that the components can be sourced from them as well.

deltaH - 4-12-2014 at 04:35

I'll share my hypothetical idea for achieveing this task for others to use if they so desire.

The combustion of fuel results in the production of nitrogen oxides. Of the many mechanistic sources by which these may be produced, so-called 'fuel derived NOx' can produce the most if combustion is carried out with excellent airation, AFAIK. Fuel NOx is NOx that is produced from nitrogen atoms in the fuel molecule itself, for example, from burning amines.

So hypothetically, burning a very nitrogen rich fuel should produce lots of NOx in the flue gas which can be used to make nitric acid by subsequent absorbtion and oxidation.

Beware though that burning nitrogenic fuels can also produce cyanide, but I think this is more an issue when the combustion is carried out with insufficient air.

Theoretically, one could use fuel tablets as a nitrogenic fuel (from the hexamine component), however, these aren't exactly cheap. Soybeans, what with their ~36% protein content, IS a cheap bulk nitrogenic 'fuel'

I know this is very hypothetical, but I don't think it's too crazy, or is it?

[Edited on 4-12-2014 by deltaH]

j_sum1 - 4-12-2014 at 05:08

It might be worth a try. It is probably a bit more practical than some of the ideas that I have been throwing around. I wouldn't expect yield to be that high though. And to get it to work well you would probably want a good oxygen supply -- richer than air would be beneficial I would imagine. It could take a while to make the required 100mL. Of course bubbling through H2O2 will lift the yield a bit.
Purity might be an issue too. What other combustion products might come off the soya beans that could dissolve in solution?

I'm going to mull these things over.

deltaH - 4-12-2014 at 05:28

Well I was thinking that for a large apparatus, one could have a suitable steel tank as a combustion chamber in which a large radial and horizontal metal fan sits at the bottom and beans are fed in through the top, somehow.

A blower blows air in tangentially at the base, close to the radial fan. The beans are constantly bashed and tossed around by the spinning fan, this ensures that they burn well with excess air. It would also break off any ash forming on the bean, further improving aeration. The exhaust gas outlet is from the centre top, the spinning solids are flung outwards off course, so that should keep the exhaust free of big bits, but probably not the fine ash. Ideally the exhaust should run into a cyclone to spin out the ash and then the gases fed to an absorber, the simplest of which could be made with H2O2, though use air as the oxidant would be the cheapest, but hardest absorber to get to work.

As for other gases, N2O is possible, but that wouldn't absorb. SO2 probably as well? I don't know how much sulfur is in soy beans, but I guessing quite a bit... but that shouldn't be a problem. The crude nitric acid formed probably would need distillation to clean it up anyway.

This kind of rig I'm proposing is for litre scales, not 100's ml, but perhaps a proof of concept should be explored with something very small first.

I don't know how easily fuel tablets blow out with wind, are they very resistant? If so, a simple test could be a burning fuel table in a metal tube with a hair drier in the one end and the exhaust lead via a stopper and tube to bubble through H2O2 solution?

[Edited on 4-12-2014 by deltaH]

j_sum1 - 4-12-2014 at 06:31

I have worked with fuel tablets before. (As in, I have cooked with them.) They burn quite steadily and don't blow out too easily. They aren't pure hexamine though. They usually contain quite a bit of trioxane as well. This helps them burn steadily but does nothing for your NOx output.
Their appeal as a cooking fuel (or one of their appeals anyway) is the fact that combustion is very controllable by adjusting the amount on the pile. A large pile of lumps will give a high temperature. Scatter your pieces a bit and the temperature goes down quickly. It burns cleanly with no smoke except when the amount combusting is small and the temp low. I guess this means predictable or at least constant combustion products. I have never tried blowing a hair drier onto them. (Couldn't find an electrical outlet in my tent.)

With soy beans I doubt there is much need to tumble roast. I would have thought a barbecue kind of arrangement would work, possibly with a vacuum cleaner or similar blowing air through the pile. It should be possible to get a nice glowing pile of beans and direct the exhaust gases through an absorber. A bucket of water might suffice.

I get the feeling that I am missing something here but it seems feasible.

deltaH - 4-12-2014 at 07:23

The trioxane isn't so much an issue as the idea to use fuel tablets is for proof of concept only, i.e. making some small amount of dilute nitric acid. Making any significant amounts will require scaling up. My soy bean idea is just the cheapest OTC nitrogen-rich fuel I could think off.

I think what is going to make or break this is the selectivity for making nitric oxide. That is to say, what fraction of nitrogen atoms in the fuel is converted to nitric oxide? It's probably poor, but if it's easy to carry out and the feedstock is cheap enough, who cares for an amateur setup?

Anyhow, I don't think this is too far removed from what is practiced industrially, i.e. industry burns THE most nitrogenic fuel... ammonia. However, typically a catalyst like platinum is used in that case and I don't think that is practical in the amateur context.

It might not be necessary to fully agitate/fluidise the beans in the combustion chamber, but I suspect this might give the best results. As you said, blowing lots of air through a packed bed of burning beans would probably also work, maybe close to just as well

Another key factor may be how the speciation of the nitrogen in the fuel affects the selectivity to it forming NO. Perhaps the amides in proteins don't work well at all compared to amines.

[Edited on 4-12-2014 by deltaH]

j_sum1 - 4-12-2014 at 07:43

Quote: Originally posted by deltaH

Anyhow, I don't think this is too far removed from what is practiced industrially, i.e. industry burns THE most nitrogenic fuel... ammonia. However, typically a catalyst like platinum is used in that case and I don't think that is practical in the amateur context.

This was pretty much my idea. Decompose some urea. Produce some oxygen and then combust. But the reaction conditions are not straightforward. High(ish) temperature, pressure at several atmospheres, platinum catalyst, low pressure needed for the second stage of the reaction and separation of the undesirable gases to feed back through the system. It wasn't going to be simple.

I found some OTC platinum but at least in my part of the world it stopped being OTC about 15 or 20 years ago. I am surprised they are still available anywhere. Contact lens technology has moved on.

deltaH - 4-12-2014 at 07:54

Anyhow, bottom line, I am hoping one can burn protein in excess air to make some amount of NOx... hopefully in usable amounts. The calorific content of soy beans is high, so the flame temperature under forced air will surely be very high, hopefully this will help with making the NOx in the absence of catalyst.

j_sum1 - 4-12-2014 at 08:01

At 15% nitrogen, this is a possibility too.
http://www.texascollaborative.org/hildasustaita/module%20fil...
Might not burn as easily though.

deltaH - 4-12-2014 at 08:12

Or old wool? Expensive though, but not if it's a moth-eaten jersey

[Edited on 4-12-2014 by deltaH]

j_sum1 - 4-12-2014 at 08:20

Like I said, tricky to burn.
I think vegetable protein as you have suggested is probably a more sensible option.
Anyway. Good food for thought.

deltaH - 4-12-2014 at 13:02

Started digging the literature... interesting stuff.

From the book "Pollutants Generated by the Combustion of Solid Biomass Fuels" by Jenny M. Jones, et al, p54:

The book was only partially available for reading on google books. From page 55:

So it seems important that the combustion be well mixed to avoid producing small amounts of cyanide in the flue gas.

Anyhow, now at least we know burning protein produces NO... exactly how much is the next question.

[Edited on 4-12-2014 by deltaH]

blogfast25 - 4-12-2014 at 13:20

As a side note what would the best way to analyze chicken shit with a GC be? I could then quantize the amount per g of each component, then compare with some thats started to compost.

GC as in Gas Chromatography? Ok, calm down already! Easiest way to determine ammoniacal nitrogen (i.e. ammonia + ammonium salts) would be dry distillation of a know amount of chicken shit with an excess of solid NaOH. That will drive off all ammoniacal nitrogen as ammonia, quantitatively.

Capture the NH3 in water (quantitatively), dilute appropriately and determine the amount with acid/base titrometry (HCl titrant + methyl orange indicator).

Constructing a neat little apparatus for the quantitative dry distillation of the NH3 is a doddle.

[Edited on 4-12-2014 by blogfast25]

Little_Ghost_again - 6-12-2014 at 16:30

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

As a side note what would the best way to analyze chicken shit with a GC be? I could then quantize the amount per g of each component, then compare with some thats started to compost.

Ok I will give this a go.
I envy the bat cave person though, our bats are out of reach but according to the book contain 19% nitrogen in there poo

higher than chicken shit!

Amos - 6-12-2014 at 16:49

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

As a side note what would the best way to analyze chicken shit with a GC be? I could then quantize the amount per g of each component, then compare with some thats started to compost.

Why would you need to dry-distill off the ammonia? The reaction proceeds much more readily with some water added, and couldn't you simply examine your starting and ending volumes of water in the container used to capture the ammonia in order to find out how much water came over?

blogfast25 - 7-12-2014 at 05:51

Quote: Originally posted by No Tears Only Dreams Now

Yes, you can add some water but it doesn't make much difference in terms of speed. And very high flow rates of NH3 can make capturing it less efficient. Since as ammonia is still somewhat soluble in highly alkaline solutions you'll also lose a bit.

But why (and how) would you want to know how much water came over? Since as the ammonia too takes up volume (and mass) that's not so easy to do. It's also unnecessary if you determine ammonia by titration.

aga - 20-12-2014 at 16:09

Would it help if i Spell It Out ?

Anyone making HNO3 from a Chemical Nitrate that they bought, and some Sulphuric Acid that they bought, then distilled, will not be in any way impressive, new, or worth any money.

Yes, making a nitrate salt from commonly available materials, and also making sulphuric, then distilling would be in with a chance.

Likely that a more Innovative synthesis would win though.

Distilling a Nitrate salt with conc H2SO4 is NOT the only way HNO3 can be obtained !

CuReUS - 1-1-2015 at 21:51

heating lead nitrate will give NO₂,but I don't think lead nitrate is OTC

what about doing Ostwald process using a catalytic converter?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostwald_process

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter#Constructio...

aga - 3-1-2015 at 14:21

Jan 1 has passed, so Submissions please, if anyone managed to make Nitric in a weird and wonderful way.

Dan Vizine - 3-1-2015 at 19:15

You're not likely to get one, either. The requirements are just too strenuous. After all, any and all plausible and cheap alternative methods of making nitric acid would have been researched to death during the world wars. Nothing significant emerged to the best of my knowledge.

[Edited on 4-1-2015 by Dan Vizine]

Tdep - 3-1-2015 at 19:18

I have a plan! That might work. Maybe.

Dan Vizine - 3-1-2015 at 19:20

And, of course someone may prove me wrong.....please, elaborate...?

Tdep - 3-1-2015 at 19:24

I'm going to try it and post results. Soon. I hope. Just waiting for my neighbourhood to stop being on fire (wasn't me! Adelaide Hills fire if anyone's curious)

WGTR - 3-1-2015 at 23:24

I'm still working on my stuff. I figured after the Fall semester ended that I'd have more time to work on this project, but that has not been the case, unfortunately. I start classes again on the 12th, so if I'm able to finish, it will probably be before then. If not, well, I plan to keep plodding on as time permits.

Economy in industry and on the lab scale are two different things. The Birkeland-Eyde route is too expensive on a commercial scale. In the lab, though, it should take around $1-2 of electricity to make a liter of nitric acid.

Pasrules - 4-1-2015 at 07:50

This challenge might return us to the plasmoid in the microwave.
There is a thread all about it from 2005 (I think) but for summary basically put a container of water in a conventional microwave with some aluminium and graphite electrodes (pencil) stuck to the underside of the lid to produce NO... You all know the rest.

CuReUS - 4-1-2015 at 09:03

Quote: Originally posted by WGTR

The Birkeland-Eyde route is too expensive on a commercial scale. In the lab, though, it should take around $1-2 of electricity to make a liter of nitric acid.

only if you have the right equipment which would be 100$

see this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RRqIv4SoLg

but I must say that I was amazed how easily one could make tons of nitric acid this way.I actually rejected this same idea before as I thought that making an electric arc would be difficult but I am a believer now

the microwave made nitric acid is this thread
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=4092

WGTR - 4-1-2015 at 09:55

Quote: Originally posted by CuReUS

if you have the right equipment which would be 100$

It's a very interesting design, but I think it can be simpler than that. The fancy glassware isn't optimal or necessary. Since the magnets are positioned in a skewed axis, the arc is rotated slightly. This isn't an issue, except that I'm the kind of person who straightens crooked wall hangings. The power supply sounds like a high frequency unit, but I can't tell since it is cleverly concealed throughout the video.

The original design was essentially an iron container full of firebrick:

20120531-tfk-1481ingress_fullskjerm.jpg - 208kB

aga - 4-1-2015 at 12:52

Quote: Originally posted by Dan Vizine

You're not likely to get one, either. The requirements are just too strenuous.

Seems that people are actually very inventive at times.

I feel that there could be a few New Routes on their way.

We shall see.

aga - 4-1-2015 at 13:14

Ah.

Slight Ethical dilemma.

In light of the recent EU-wide laws restricting HNO3 possession to 3% and the ongoing clampdown on chemistry in general, i feel that all and any submissions should be posted in Whimsy, which would make the Resulting processes unavailable to Public view, yet leave them available to SM members.

If a Mod happens to be passing, please lock this thread.

A new thread is already open in Whimsy.

CuReUS - 4-1-2015 at 23:37

Quote: Originally posted by WGTR

The power supply sounds like a high frequency unit, but I can't tell since it is cleverly concealed throughout the video.

Is it a step up transformer or something like that
this youtube channel has many videos with different electrical devices so we can ask him about the power supply
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4aI2Oiz1ps

In light of the recent EU-wide laws restricting HNO3 possession to 3%

even I had our european members in mind when I said that one could make tons of nitric acid this way.the UK laws are very strict nowadays

[Edited on 5-1-2015 by CuReUS]

aga - 5-1-2015 at 13:20

I suppose i really should ASK the mods and general population whether they think any new HNO3 synths should be made public or not.

It's not My website after all.

Comments/Opinions please.

WGTR - 5-1-2015 at 13:44

Are you concerned with your own liability in offering prize money, or that others may get arrested trying to duplicate the experiment? Or are you concerned about people who may misuse the information?

The contest could be reworded to only require 3% concentration, but in larger quantities. If one can make 3%, he or she can also make 30% anyway.

I'm here in the US, where it is still legal to own things like nitric acid, hydrogen peroxide, cars that get 10mpg, and Gatling guns.

At the same time, I'd like to think that I consider others before doing things. Certainly, if people think that posting this kind of information is detrimental, then I will consider that.

Pasrules - 5-1-2015 at 13:56

I would love it to remain public as long as it is no risk to your liability, alot of people could really do with a procedure to make this stuff and so far the only method i've seen come up is by using a microwave.
If criminals wanted to make this stuff they would take much easier routes with chemicals that include nitrates which we have excluded because we want a challenge.

[Edited on 5-1-2015 by Pasrules]

aga - 5-1-2015 at 14:07

My concern is primarily for the SM website.

I'd hate it to be taken down due to some random HNO3 process being posted at a time when the Powers that Be are taking steps to reduce public possession of the same.

As i said, it's not my website, but then, if Polverone et al take issue with anything posted, i suppose they have the power to remove it.

Perhaps i'm being overprotective of my favourite website.

[Edited on 5-1-2015 by aga]

CuReUS - 6-1-2015 at 02:29

I suppose i really should ASK the mods and general population whether they think any new HNO3 synths should be made public or not.

the idea is not actually new ,someone already thought about it before
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=32375#...