Sciencemadness Discussion Board

FIGHT FOR SCIENTIST RIGHTS!!!

12AX7 - 19-12-2005 at 12:07

I have the PERFECT idea. There were black rights activists. There are gay rights activists. All WE need to do is start a Scientist Rights Movement. If we make it look like racism and discrimination, the politically-correct average person can't help but feel sorry for us and we will be accepted!

Tim

chromium - 19-12-2005 at 14:24

It's good idea but not that easy. Most of us just do not have time to spare but writing good article for newspaper or making short film about home scientists may be as hard as acetic anhydride preparation. Communicating with public is very complicated and one has to read lot of books to be succesfull in any kind of propaganda work.

It may be usefull to look around for friends among writers, journalists or filmmakers. Current state of hobby science in US may well be used to make awardwinning documentary film.

Chris The Great - 19-12-2005 at 17:37

If some of us are ethnic minorities we should have no problem at all. Modern society will trip over itself to rush to help minorities who feel discriminated against in any way. Just show the cops beating up on some minority chemist cause he was doing some interesting, safe experiment that looks cool (and doesn't take too long either) and people will feel sorry for us.

A documentary film would do alot of good, but I doubt any of us here could make a good one, and get it distributed widely. If someone did know someone who could do it, and it happened (and was a good, interesting yet informative film) then it could do alot of good.

DeAdFX - 20-12-2005 at 11:29

good luck convincing anything about chemistry is safe... See current new fad: everything gives you cancer and natural things are a lot safer than synthetic things:rolleyes:

Another perspective

chloric1 - 20-12-2005 at 12:57

Point out that Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Edison both had home "labs" and that the great contributions to society they made.

Also, there needs to be someway to relate to the public that even in this advanced technical age, there is stil some very simplistic inventions being granted patents. IT should be said that you don't have to discover something new but only a different, easier, cheaper, or better way of making or fixing something.

The_Davster - 20-12-2005 at 15:44

I think it would definatly be good to remind the public just how much of the important chemical and technological advancements were done in home laboratories. Nobel, Curie, Hall(yup, Al was first produced in the backyard of his parents house :P), Tesla, and others all did their experiments in their homes. It is only within the last fifty years or so that science has been deemed bad for the public.

Interesting to note, Edison's Menlow park research firm was actually the first company simply for research.

Nerro - 20-12-2005 at 15:52

We could raise an army of clones dressed in labcoats and armed with spatula's!!!
*laughs hysterically!*

Bill - 2-1-2006 at 08:10

Check this out
http://www.jce.divched.org/cgi-bin/JCE/jce-idx.pl?type=artic...
I hope that helps.

DDTea - 11-7-2007 at 07:44

Everyone is saying it's hard to fight for rights, to lobby for what we want. But is anything worth doing easy? Stay quiet, and see what will happy to our hobby.

I might be making an assumption, and sorry if I am, but we need to stop viewing Chemists solely as people wearing labcoats and synthesizing the next big thing. What one can do with Chemistry is *extremely* broad in terms of careers, and included in that is public relations/government advising/etc.

Think about it. The guys on Capital Hill, the average person on the street doesn't know a *thing* about Chemistry or Chemicals. So they cannot be expected to make rational decisions based on facts because they just do not have the background knowledge that a chemist does. It is up to the chemists, then, to show that their field is not the modern day witchcraft which will bring wrath from above and destroy our society.

Public relations with Chemistry is actually a big deal. Consider when a freight train derails and releases Hydrogen Chloride, as what happened in Baltimore back in 2002...who was there to calmly explain to the public what the situation was, what the risks were, and what was NOT to fear?

So I don't think it is far-fetched for the politically savvy among us to write some petitions or to start mailing congressmen about how much they are truly hurting science in this country by their "crackdowns" on terror and drugs--which no doubt are scourges to society, but at the same time reason must be applied. A model rocket is not a Surface to Air Missile.

YT2095 - 11-7-2007 at 08:22

I`m all for it!

and as for drugs and funny smells etc... Who better qualified to know what they`re on about when reporting some smack head lab or tcap bomb synth in a bath than people like US.

they ask the public to be Vigilant, but joe public doesn`t know his ass from his elbow half the time, WE on the other hand have Much better training visually and nasally (except for those that make it habit to breathe Cl2 :P) to ID such an occurance.

if Anything WE should be on the Gov`s fu(kin` payroll!

[Edited on 11-7-2007 by YT2095]

gregxy - 11-7-2007 at 10:03

Unfortunately there is a big problem

Many "hobby type" activities are on the decline, even ones that are considered "safe" and dont have connections to terrorism or drug cooking. There was an article in the San Jose Mercury news about a year ago about how hobby shops are going out of business. The reason is video games. These days kids would rather play the video games than build model airplanes. The games are very seductive & give instant gratification with no risk of failure. I have two teens and have built battlebots, gocarts, potato-cannons, fireworks etc but I can't even get my kids to go into the garage to look at the stuff, they would rather play the games allll dayyyyy longggggg.

chromium - 11-7-2007 at 11:35

I agree with 12AX7 but must say that this is much harder task than it seems at first.

Nowadays no one gets continuously positive attention in media if someone powerfull enough wants things to change. No, do not get me wrong! You will not be blackmailed or threatened any way, there are much better ways to deal with you.

There are always journalists who are ready to frame up something against you if they are paid for it. They are much more skillfull in media world than you are and can tune up public against you without lying anything for which they could be accused. This is especially easy to do if you are not visually attractive or just are not very skillfull in defending yourself against provocations.

It's also rather hard to find popular journal or newspaper which wants to publish your opinions. Most of them sincerelly think that this does not interest their readers and thus is not profitable for their business. Most of them earn their money by writing what their readers want to belive the world is like. And you wish them to write something completely different.

In reality i belive that there is still possibility to make usefull propaganda for hobby science but then we should go to streets with banners or do other classic "rites" wich are proven to be so effective for gay movement, feminism, pacifism etc.

I do not belive in presenting us as "those who carry light of science" because its generally thought that academic institutions are more than enough for science to blossom. Most professors also will rather denounce amateur science as something that does things not as safely and not as controlled way as "professionals" do. Their point of view is usally something like "if you love science then go to college and use all your time there doing your courses to get good job afterwards - what else do you want".

To represent us as somebody who just can not live without those "useless" experiments, may be much more effective.

Gay activists have told us that they just can not live as was formerly considerd normal and they got what they wanted. The same was with conscious objectors (from armed services) and it could as well be with us.


[Edited on 11-7-2007 by chromium]

tito-o-mac - 12-7-2007 at 03:31

First things first. What are the issues of scientist rights? What have they done to condemn us? One should ponder on such questions before taking any actions!

Sauron - 12-7-2007 at 04:02

The idea is absurd on its face.

Society does not regard amateurs as scientists at all.

Professional scientists are not having a rights problem that I am aware of.

What we need is community outreach and better public relations, not some dimwitted Hundred Man March on Washington in defense of our rights to experiment in our garages. I can see us all sitting around with hand made signs singing We Shall Overcome.

We need fewer Swerleins in our midst and FAR fewer dope cooks, I daresay.

We need to bolster our image as good neighbors and responsible citizens, NOT eccentrics, not explosives nuts, even if we are into energetics. Swerlein setting off charges in his driveway at 3 am is PRECISELY what we do not need to be associated with in anyone's mind, not the media, not the cops, and not the public.

Scrap the 60s mentality, burn your old Peter Paul & Mary albums. We don't want to be collateral damage in the War on Terror or the War on Drugs. That's all there is to it.

What we need is the ACS on our side. Every one of us should join if not already a member. If you do not have a formal degree in chemistry you can still join as an associate.

The ACS has political clout and can if it wishes do a lot more for amateur chemists than the ACLU can. The ACLU cares only about certain civil liberties and won't lift a finger or spend a dime on quite a few others.

[Edited on 12-7-2007 by Sauron]

quicksilver - 12-7-2007 at 06:15

Quote:
Originally posted by Chris The Great
If some of us are ethnic minorities we should have no problem at all. Modern society will trip over itself to rush to help minorities who feel discriminated against in any way. Just show the cops beating up on some minority chemist cause he was doing some interesting, safe experiment that looks cool (and doesn't take too long either) and people will feel sorry for us.


I am your poster boy!
I grew up on a reservation. The PC crowd thinks any tribal member can do no wrong. Fucking idiots.

YT2095 - 12-7-2007 at 06:20

LOL, That`s the Spirit!

we can have a Mad-Scientist Pin-up Calendar too! (I`ll take one of the Longer months, the chicks will go Wild seeing me).

ok Who left the Top off the Toluene Bottle...

Sauron - 12-7-2007 at 06:57

I did not grow up on a reservation, but I did have a lot of reservations about growing up.

chromium - 12-7-2007 at 12:49

Quote:
Originally posted by Sauron
The idea is absurd on its face.

Society does not regard amateurs as scientists at all.

[Edited on 12-7-2007 by Sauron]


You are smart as always. I also agree that we should be (and look as) good neighbours and responsible citizens. And ACS seems valuable idea although i live in quite another country.
Quote:
Originally posted by Sauron
Professional scientists are not having a rights problem that I am aware of.
[Edited on 12-7-2007 by Sauron]


In my opinion scientists have quite a lot of problems with rights but for some reason they do not think they should have any (specific) rights at all. Only specific scientists rights that i can think of are "right" to be part of academic institutions (and thus use some of possibilities that academic institutions have) and "right" to get some specific jobs that otherwise are not available.

When chemistry professor starts home lab he is quite in the same position than uneducated 14 year old because criminal-, environmental- and any other laws do not make any difference here. In some sense professor has it even worse because he may lose his job or licence if LE only says he is suspicious man - and his collegues will not help him. He may even lose his job because of scandals that are not related at all to science or his ability to do usefull scientific work.

Sauron - 12-7-2007 at 22:11

I would hope that a professional chemistry association analogous to ACS would exist in most countries.

Is this not the case in your own land, @chromium?

I guess that you are correct that a chemisstry academic (be he/she professor, or lecturer/instructor) would be putting himself in the same problem set as a layman is he set up a home lab but, why would one do so?

After all they have facilities at their institution.

I had a private lab of my own when I was a research assistant, a stock room or two to draw from, ordering privileges when I needed something not at hand in those. And that was as a student. Were I on staff the situation would be even better because I'd have all that and be getting paid for my labors as well. Well, maybe not paid very well, but paid.

An academic has a lot more freedom to follow their whims than does a commercial employee, companies get nasty about use of corporate equipment and materials for personal projects, at least until you are quite senior. Or unless you own the company.

tito-o-mac - 20-7-2007 at 06:14

What about those genetic-cloning human rights stuff? They used it "in the name of science" though some human or animal rights despise them...

YT2095 - 20-7-2007 at 07:32

yeah until the Tech is proven Viable and it`s one of Their kids lying there with only a week to live?

most tend to get a nice tall glass of Shut-the-fuck-up then!

Bromide - 20-7-2007 at 07:55

Quote:
Originally posted by tito-o-mac
What about those genetic-cloning human rights stuff? They used it "in the name of science" though some human or animal rights despise them...


I tried but I can't really grok what the big deal is about human cloning. Seriously--what exactly is the supposedly awful thing about the possibility of creating "time-shifted twins" that gets the masses (and the politicians who feed off them) so worked up?

Sergei_Eisenstein - 20-7-2007 at 12:19

I only have to look out of the window to know why I'm opposed to human cloning :)

The_Davster - 20-7-2007 at 15:49

Wow, I don't say sentences very often starting with 'there should be a law'...but there should be a law that only people with IQs over a certain number can be cloned.:D

chloric1 - 20-7-2007 at 17:15

Quote:
Originally posted by Sauron
What we need is the ACS on our side. Every one of us should join if not already a member. If you do not have a formal degree in chemistry you can still join as an associate.

The ACS has political clout and can if it wishes do a lot more for amateur chemists than the ACLU can. The ACLU cares only about certain civil liberties and won't lift a finger or spend a dime on quite a few others.

[Edited on 12-7-2007 by Sauron]


Yes I think this is a good begining at least as a way to seperate us from the kewls out there. Maybe the amatuers could have our own represented chapter within the ACS or the Royal chemical society. Maybe a number of us could become a not for profit research organizations selling products and holding fundraisers for income. Our major mission would be the importance of teaching children how to experiment safely. Make being a kewl REALLY uncool. I was bored today and have been waiting to share this idea.

[Edited on 7/20/2007 by chloric1]

BromicAcid - 20-7-2007 at 19:28

By chance is anyone here already a member of the ACS? My degree is ACS accredited but when I went to sign up it asked for my sponsor. I can sign up without a sponsor however my sponsor would get a blanket with the periodic table on it and since I didn't want to give up that opportunity I have been waiting to meet someone who has an active ACS membership.

As for chemists rights, I wrote a paper in college titled "Stop Picking on the Chemists!" that managed to get some circulation among the students. However looking back on it, it isn't the most masterfully written piece of work, I could post it though.

Waffles - 21-7-2007 at 01:48

Basically, it seems that the people who are against cloning research think that the process works just like in the movies- you pop someone in a chamber, and then a couple weeks later you have an exact replica of that person, memories and personality included. Or they don't care in the slightest how it actually works, but they feel that no matter how its done it should somehow be blasphemous and evil.
The people who are in support of cloning research seem to view it NOT as some sort of miracle or panacea, but as a valuable tool for the general advancement of science, more possible ways to fix previously uncurable conditions, and tool to learn about the manipulation of genes.

Sergei_Eisenstein - 21-7-2007 at 11:19

Quote:
Originally posted by iamthewaffler
Basically, it seems that the people who are against cloning research think that the process works just like in the movies- you pop someone in a chamber, and then a couple weeks later you have an exact replica of that person, memories and personality included.


That's not just the problem for human cloning, but for the whole of science in general. Commons only know scientists from TV and consider the image that is projected (read: poured) into their poisoned mind as true.

[Edited on 21-7-2007 by Sergei_Eisenstein]

vulture - 21-7-2007 at 12:34

Ever watched CSI Miami?

- Dissolve beach sand in acetone and run it through a HPLC apparatus
- Derive the structural formula for an unknown compound from the mass spectrum only
- Consider 100ppm HNO3 atmosphere as extremely toxic and explosive

chemkid - 21-7-2007 at 14:08

We should create an amature chemist's society

Sauron - 22-7-2007 at 09:42

CSI = Complete Simpletons and Imbeciles

But consider it has to keep up with intellectual giants like ALIAS and 24

franklyn - 22-7-2007 at 09:57

Quote:
Originally posted by Sauron
CSI = Complete Simpletons and Imbeciles

But consider it has to keep up with intellectual giants like ALIAS and 24


Oh so you got cable over there, Thai gameshows too dull huh. :D

.

quicksilver - 25-7-2007 at 06:02

Quote:
Originally posted by vulture
Ever watched CSI Miami?

- Dissolve beach sand in acetone and run it through a HPLC apparatus
- Derive the structural formula for an unknown compound from the mass spectrum only
- Consider 100ppm HNO3 atmosphere as extremely toxic and explosive


Much too painful......I really can't sit through most of them. But the Miami version is agony....
The whiny, screechy voice of the blond is like nails on a chalk-board. - There is an undercurrent in the show that displays knowledge as an element of the smug elitist "science-geek" and while general bullshit; portrays anyone who is so imbued as beautiful / handsome, etc.
It's actually pathetic. If the show is broken down to it's raw elements; it's one lie after another.

Hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on everyday tragedies.....give me a break!

chemrox - 25-7-2007 at 14:41

I'm afraid gun rights activists have tried this and ended up looking like nuts. As has been pointed out, a sympathetic media spin is key to success. I'm too concerned a spinoff to drug labs would always be included and thus by counter-productive. Maybe this is pessimistic. I want it to work!

Ozone - 25-7-2007 at 18:34

Another very real problem with CSI is that people now have unrealistic expectations of what we can do. This is a nightmare with bosses, clients, and general public. It's almost as obnoxious as the inevitable "dude, can you make (insert drug of choice)"-type questions at parties.

An Agilent 6890 that can, from a hair in a vial, produce a comprehensive list of drugs, toxins, etc. related to the deceased---A Bargain at any price.

@BromicAcid; I might be able to help you out with the ACS membership;).

Cheers,

O3

BromicAcid - 6-8-2007 at 19:24

This site idea might already exist, but how about a site that takes the popular fear mongering stories from the current media (regarding chemistry) and debunks them on a regular basis? I have seen similar sites debunking pseudoscience in general but it would be nice to see a site that would look at the popular stories on Yahoo news, world news, etc. and found flaws in their chemistry or logic regarding chemistry and pointed them out so that people looking for more information on said story could find a more logical viewpoint of it. Probably already been done but still good PR.

Maybe just make a site to educate the ignorant masses, chemistry for beginning beginners to abate their fears and make the field seem less like magic by saying "This is a chemical bond... there is nothing magic here..." Let's all donate money to sciencemadness for the fight for chemists rights! Maybe Polverone could get another domain name and make an add on domain for his space at sciencemadness for it. Gah, I'm dreaming. For some reason I think we should be doing more.

[Edited on 8/6/2007 by BromicAcid]

quicksilver - 7-8-2007 at 05:34

Quote:
Originally posted by BromicAcid
This site idea might already exist, but how about a site that takes the popular fear mongering stories from the current media (regarding chemistry) and debunks them on a regular basis?


This could work. Piggy-backing off the marketing of an established "big name" DOES get hits on web-sites. "CSI-LIES" could be a real hit, especially if the public has a small input to ask questions...not too much mind you - as there are more morons out there than one would believe in a nightmare.

I deeply believe that it would accomplish two aims; 1. it could promote more accurate portrait of science in the popular media. 2. it could get those folks who run the site connected to consultancy venues in the entertainment media ($$$$).

chemkid - 7-8-2007 at 14:38

I already have a website and if anyone would like articles etc. they have written to be posted and added to the site I would be willing.

Chemkid

BromicAcid - 7-8-2007 at 15:01

Well, not just things like CSI and such although those could certainly be a part of it and attract traffic, but also things in the news, lots of the chemophobic fear mongering that goes on.

Nothing against you chemkid but this would likely have to be a focused effort, with several people devoting many man hours each to get things up and running then a staff of knowledgeable volunteers thereafter to keep the articles being churned out, not simply hosting articles. Plus the layout would have to look cool.

Nerro - 7-8-2007 at 15:04

We could make something with joomla, that usually looks good.

quicksilver - 8-8-2007 at 17:03

Realistically, stuff that makes real money starts out just like this....couple of guys just talking about it working out the odds and ends. (1) what would the goals and objectives be from a big picture perspective? 2. who really has time to keep things going? (that person does NOT need to be a graduate student. They wouldn't have the time anyway - they are already being exploited to the bone!) 3. articles need peer review foundation or some professional substantiation 4. would there be a marketing effort involved and how far to take it (?) 5. keeping cost and time to a bear minimum and how to do so while keeping the site on a professional level.....Hell, there are a few more I'm sure you guys could think of.

Bromic's site could come close with some clean up (got to be pretty and professional; tough to do as the prettier you make it the slower it loads from dial-up) and some "money" targets, etc. The whole thing is a fun idea game.

[Edited on 8-8-2007 by quicksilver]

CSI....

gregxy - 9-8-2007 at 09:33

No the science is not always correct, but I think that this show has done the scientific community a great service by
portraying scientists as "cool" as opposed to "geeks
that could not get a date if their life depnded on it".

Many schools now have introductory science classes based
on "forensic investigation" that did not exist before CSI.
Maybe a few of the kids that take these classes will end up
working in a lab instead of the local McDonalds.

quicksilver - 10-8-2007 at 06:00

I agree that "any publicity is good publicity" and the general point about science made to be "cool".... but when a new concept is introduced, it often gets picked apart. The most vicious critics are those closest to it! ..... But there is also the concept of:
"you can't be disillusioned unless you have illusions in the first place" - when CSI depicts things which don't exist or work the same way as in the show, folks get disillusioned - perhaps not with science per se' but with investigative elements of law enforcement. Most criminalists are not POST certified (carry a weapon, make arrests) nor do they call any shots with POST personnel "Officer, hook this guy up and get him out of here". What's more, in the show(s) they have an unlimited budget....it seems they have a new machine, etc....every time.

Sergei_Eisenstein - 10-8-2007 at 08:23

Quote:
Maybe a few of the kids that take these classes will end up working in a lab instead of the local McDonalds.



One of the problems of today's Civilized West, is that people who should work in the local McDonalds are working in labs.

Ozone - 10-8-2007 at 19:06

Quote:
people who should work in the local McDonalds are working in labs.


How True!

This is how we end up with flour adultered with melamine:cyanuric acid being mistaken for enriched gluten...

The modern QA/QC, cGMP, etc. protocols are making this worse. Most of these labs do not want to pay for skilled Chemists and, at (absolute) best, will hire Chemistry students and very recent graduates. These personnel train up and move out (to jobs that will pay them what they are worth). This results in a revolving door and a minimal on-going base of know-how.

Want a modern "tech"? Take Joe Anybody off of the street and give them an SOP, voila, someone who can perform the test and get the QC to pass--BUT--is unable to ascertain that the material does not look, smell, dissolve, etc. correctly. If the test passes, the material passes.

Nowadays, dogshit will pass a donut assay if the QC looks good.

Just add some sprinkles and they'll eat it up,

O3

donlaszlow - 4-8-2009 at 10:16

Great idea, but the average Jane and Joe fear everything they don't know:)