Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Toxins and Amazon

Darkfire - 6-4-2003 at 17:48

Toxins are the most fasinating of all compounds ive looked at so far IMHO, of a link from here i found some great info on these compounds, a story and a certain toxic isolated from a single source from a single tide pool in Hawai was partitularly interesting. It the most toxic thing ever know, its the biggest naturaly occuring poision and has over 10^21 isomers and some chemist made the exact isomer that occurs natuaraly thats fricken insane. After looking at one page that said that tetanus was more toxic i searched and found this link to amazon, Screenshot of what i found. I think its funny if you dont get it, then well im sorry.

CTR

[Edited on 7-4-2003 by Darkfire]

DDTea - 6-4-2003 at 19:35

Indeed Toxins are very fascinating. They are somewhere between Biological Weapons and Chemical Weapons, and thus are deserving of their own special category.

Toxins are what make bacteria deadly or incapacitating. When the bacteria feed off of your body, they must release excrement. It is this excrement, this waste material, that is poisonous to the body. It is not Clostridium Botulinum itself that will kill, it is the Botulinum Toxin.

Also, Toxins tend to be very strong substances. They are not as strong as some Chemicals, but are also far less sensitive than straight Biological Weapons. This is why they have been so suitable for weapons, especially the Mycotoxins (Aflatoxin, T2, etc...).

Hmm...but to narrow this down a bit, is there anything specific you would like to discuss about Toxins? :)

Darkfire - 7-4-2003 at 14:07

Well now that i remebered the name of Palytoxin, the lethal dose for a human is < 4 micrograms this hardly seem posible. Basicaly what i want to learn is how this is even possible, and why toxins are especaly deadly. So far ive read about ion channels and how cetain chemicals effect them but so far i havent found out what these ion channels do.http://www.chem.orst.edu/ch331-7t/ch334/MOTD116.htm

CTR

[Edited on 7-4-2003 by Darkfire]

Haggis - 7-4-2003 at 15:43

Palytoxin is a neurotoxin from corals of the genus Palythoa. There is no reported cases of human poisoning, but animal test suggest that the toxin constricts bloodvessels in the heart. LD50 for monkeys: .08 micrograms/kg, .2 microgram/kg in cats and .4 micrograms/kg in mice. Mouse LD50 through skin is 1270 microgram/kg. Lethal, however the source is quite limited.

Edit: I posted that structure without even looking at the link, it is basically the same thing. The mode of action for Palytoxin is irreversible depolarization of the nerve and muscle tissue, possibly affecting sodium channels. Higher concentrations disintegrate red blood cells. Personally, I am interested in T-2. There's a thread at E&W that outlines T-2 seperation from corn mold using acetone. I can't wait for harvest and the 'corn smut' as it is called to appear.

[Edited on 8-4-2003 by Haggis]

Mvc-009f.jpg - 42kB

Palytoxin is

Boob Raider - 13-4-2003 at 21:01

The most toxic NON-PROTENIOUS toxin (I don't know what class it falls under). Botulinius toxin is a protein ... tetanus, ricin, almost all bacterial toxins are proteins and that is one reason why they are so toxic. Saxitoxin is probably the most toxic alkaloid and Batrachotoxin (from the poison dart frogs) is the most toxic steroidal toxin.
If you really want to isolate toxins, Palytoxin is too much of a bitch to obtain as culturing the coral is way too time consuming and complicating.
Best bets are Botox, Saxitoxin, Anatoxin, Domoic acid, Ricin, tetrodotoxin and mycotoxins.
If anyone is interested in isolating C. Botulinum then I would post some selecting specs. I am working on Saxitoxin and related dinoflagellate toxins right now.

[Edited on 14-4-2003 by Boob Raider]

PHILOU Zrealone - 14-4-2003 at 04:41

The reaction beween NH2-SO2-NH2, CH2=O and ammonia provides a hexamethylenetramine like structure with 2 SO2 at each opponed tops that is 5 times more toxic than curare itself!

(HC#C-CH2-)4N-OH
(CH2=CH-CH2-)4N-OH (anemone poison)
(C6H5-CH2-)4N-OH
... belongs to the most poisonous curare like stuffs!

fritz - 7-12-2003 at 12:44

Palytoxin is a polyketide and so related to some Mycotoxins (e.g. Aflatoxin)

From my point of view it seems very difficult to work with Mycotoxins. Normaly you need pure strains of the fungi and you need special conditions as pH, content of nutrients etc. And obtaining pure fungi-strains would be the most difficult aspect in Mycotoxin-works. It should be possible to grow fungi-cultures from moldy food and it should also be possible to enrich the desired fungus. But it seems very hard to contol if the fungus in the broth is capable of toxin-production and also it seems very dificult to put up a safe and STERILE working area which I think the most important aspect in microbiological-research!

I guess for `normal` guys the only possibility for studdying potent poisons would be working with plant/mushroom-poisons. sources for e.g. batrachotoxin, tetrodotoxin, taipoxin, etc. may be hard to find. And working with bacterial/fungal agents I consider as very dangerous although the actual production of the poisons isn´t too difficult.

guaguanco - 9-12-2003 at 15:23

another interesting URL:

http://www.asanltr.com/newsletter/02-2/articles/Neurotoxins....

unionised - 11-12-2003 at 04:13

Most of these things are not "waste products" they are deliberately made as poisons. The targets are the other organisms with which they compete for food and space. Penicillin is a pretty clear illustration of this.
(And I know they don't have any mind to deliberate with,but antropomorphising is an easy way to put the point accross)

Clostridium Botulinum

Ice - 11-3-2006 at 09:36

Quote:
Ursprugligen inlagt av Boob Raider
The most toxic NON-PROTENIOUS toxin (I don't know what class it falls under). Botulinius toxin is a protein ... tetanus, ricin, almost all bacterial toxins are proteins and that is one reason why they are so toxic. Saxitoxin is probably the most toxic alkaloid and Batrachotoxin (from the poison dart frogs) is the most toxic steroidal toxin.
If you really want to isolate toxins, Palytoxin is too much of a bitch to obtain as culturing the coral is way too time consuming and complicating.
Best bets are Botox, Saxitoxin, Anatoxin, Domoic acid, Ricin, tetrodotoxin and mycotoxins.
If anyone is interested in isolating C. Botulinum then I would post some selecting specs. I am working on Saxitoxin and related dinoflagellate toxins right now.

[Edited on 14-4-2003 by Boob Raider]




I would just like to point out that Botox is short for botulinumtoxin.

For those of you who are unfarmilliar with b. toxin, this is THE MOST POTENT TOXIN KNOWN TO MAN!!!!!! A dose of 3 nanograms is lethal, meaning that someone who makes a single gram of it, could potentially kill 33.000.000 people!

I haven't read the entire forum, so sorry if I'm repeatin what anybody has already said!

I am taking classes in microbiology, on s:t Petri, Sweden, and I am interested in isolating C. botulinum. Btw, do you know what kind of nutricion they like, should I go with ordinary NA or BA, or should i add minerals or use a diffrent nutricion base?

What safteylevet is apropriate to use when growing c. botulinum? The toxin is higly potent, but the risk of infecton is minimal... When it's grown, is the toxin bound in the NB or NA, or does it vapourise?

To Boob Raider: If you want to, I could e-mail you a little trick I have when it comes to C. Botulinum, I dont want to post it. Have a nice day!

Math

MadHatter - 11-3-2006 at 22:12

Ice, check your math - at 3 nanograms, wouldn't that be over 333,000,000 ? 20 grams to
wipeout mankind - talk about a doomsday poison !

akinmad - 11-3-2006 at 23:23

According to the following link,

Toxicity of natural botulinum toxin is at the order of pictograms (subcutaneous route).

http://www2.siri.org/msds/tox/f/q134/q867.html

Regards

neutrino - 12-3-2006 at 07:28

It gives the LD50 for mice as 30 pg/Kg.

Assuming the average person is 50 Kg*, we get the LD50 to be 1.5 ng. A 'lethal' dose would be a little higher, so Ice is correct. That is, of course, assuming that mouse and human physiologies are similar enough to make this comparison.

You have to admit that is pretty damn toxic. Could you even see 3 ng?

*Yes, I know many people today (especially Americans) weigh quite a bit more. But for the sake of argument, let's assume this.

On the subject of toxicology...

Xque - 12-3-2006 at 08:05

I was browsing amazon.com, when I stumbled upen this:
Toxicology and Poisons I.
Toxicology and Poisons II.
Toxicology and Poisons III. History of Toxicology
Toxicology And Poisons IV Forensic Toxicology Books


Impressive lists, eh? Actually, a black* lady made them. Not quite what I expected:D Anybody looking for a wife?:P

Perhaps we should have a topic of toxicology PDF's?

* Excuse me, if this can possibly be interpreted as a racist statement, I'm simply refering to a persons absorbance and reflection of light waves.