Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Things That Frustrate As A DIY Chemist

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SimpleChemist-238 - 8-2-2015 at 09:50

I enjoy the experience of a home laboratory, the sweat smell of solvents in the morning, the adventure of knowledge and the unique personality of the compounds but it does not come without its challenges of the home, not quite laboratory setting. What I mean by this is having your lab in a basement and having to compete with dust getting in your glass ware and crystallizing dishes.

1. Dust

As hinted in the section above I can not stand the dust that may build up during a experiment, weather hair getting in a beaker or the fine droppings of dust mites it is equally as destructive to my mood I find. I once finding these foreign partials I at once want to filter the solution and recrystallize. I now am building I sealed desiccator to evaporate solutions to solve the problem.

2. Cleaning Glass

I may be the sloppy chemist or maybe it is common but I after done with a experiment I have voluminous quantity of glass ware with often dark caked materials or find crystals in my recent procedures that need a lot of time to clean and I may put it in my labs sink and avoid it for days before cleaning it. I am lazy about cleaning after a experiment because of others distractions such as bottling my new compound with a label or taking notes in a journal with my findings.

so now I have trained my self to immediately clean my glass or else it become covered with unremarkable stains.

Well that is all that comes to mind what are some things that annoy you?

[Edited on 8-2-2015 by SimpleChemist-238]

Texium - 8-2-2015 at 10:03

I must agree wholeheartedly on both of the points that you made. Hairy crystals are no fun. Normally I cover my evaporating dishes with cheesecloth to try and keep most of the particulate out, but stuff still gets in. And as for cleaning glassware, well, I'm sure most people here would agree with that one. I'm avoiding cleaning glassware right now! But of course, the longer you put it off, the harder it is to clean.

Another thing that frustrates me is when I put a lot of time into something, but it doesn't work, and then I have a huge, oftentimes toxic mess to deal with and nothing interesting to show for it. Yeah, it's good to learn from failures, but it's hard to stay positive when you've got a bunch of heavy metal waste you need to dispose of.

Mechanical losses. It's really annoying when you're trying to do something smaller scale to conserve expensive reagents and then you lose half or more of your product in one transfer. Now I try to think of ways to limit the number of transfers as much as possible. I'm sure that I could think of a few more things, but that's all I've got right now.

SimpleChemist-238 - 8-2-2015 at 11:43

I am too putting it off as I write and I hate it when I invest hours into a reaction and I don't get a good yield or the reaction does not work.

Jylliana - 8-2-2015 at 12:04

Too little room to store things properly.
Too much chemical waste and trouble getting rid of it.

That second one is something I am working on. Stupid waste-processing company is getting on my nerves. :/

EDIT: Yay 100 posts :D

[Edited on 8-2-2015 by Jylliana]

Hawkguy - 8-2-2015 at 12:07

I don't like how what I do is constantly looked on as 'wrong' by society.... The whole meth paranoia , makes people think that ALL home chemists are bad..

smaerd - 8-2-2015 at 13:30

Running out of a chemical that isn't easily OTC'ed but is in every research institution around the world by the gallon.

Needing to dry a chemical and not having a high-vacuum or nitrogen line. Or even having dry solvents handy (adds extra time to experiments). Or better yet, "Did my experiment fail because product X is not true to their MSDS sheet?" hehehe. If I had a dime for every terrible % yield I've obtained due to impure chemicals or

@ZTS16 - mechanical losses UGHHH!!!! I have to admit though I have gotten a lot better with small scale since working in an amateur environment. So it is a benefit. I've also gotten a lot better at improvising experimental procedures with "sub-par" materials. That is a skill that goes a long way.

I'm with ya Jylliana - Having to nuetralize and/or evaporate off chemical waste before being able to start the next experiment. I'm not sure how ya'll handle your waste, but I use a big erlenmeyer and let it dry off, then dispose of it to the appropriate out-lets, or if it's benign I have a bonfire and stay a good 50 feet back (keep in mind I work in the mmol scale). Sometimes that means I have to wait a week to try round 2. Sometimes that's a good thing though as it gives me time to really reflect on the experiment.



[Edited on 8-2-2015 by smaerd]

aga - 8-2-2015 at 13:49

Nasty brown gunk in your glass ?

Pihraña fluid eats it in seconds.

Cannot imagine why it isn't available OTC ;)

Zombie - 8-2-2015 at 16:13

I have been working out of my tool shop in the back yard. My three biggest issues were dust / dirt / and humidity.
In designing my new lab I am moving into the spare room or "home office".
Now I raise Presa Canarios, and 13 hours a day there are at least 3-4 dogs indoors. That means more dust stirred, and yes... Dander, and dog hair.

I have designed the area for my bench to have sealed chemical, and supply storage both above, and under the bench. That leaves the room, and the bench to deal with. I believe I have a rather elegant solution. A combo Laminar flow hod / Fume hood.
The concept is removable side, and front shields for the flow hood, and a deflection flap installed to divert the air flow either thru the laminar cabinet of directly to the outdoors.
In laminar mode the air can be pulled in thru the fume hood (filtered), and exited thru the HEPA back into the lab.
By turning on the system an hour or so before working I believe it will "scrub the air, and at least clear the bench area of "debris", and at best clear the entire room. I think this fits the topic because I am attempting to cure my "peeves".

I have a quick CAD of the idea.

Untitled.jpg - 238kB

[Edited on 9-2-2015 by Zombie]

phlogiston - 8-2-2015 at 16:15

Worrying about what others might think of this hobby and getting into trouble for innocent fun.

[Edited on 9-2-2015 by phlogiston]

SimpleChemist-238 - 8-2-2015 at 16:15

Pihraña fluid Solution solves problems though, by the way I found HF at my store. I have it in its original container because I am afraid to open it.

Zombie - 8-2-2015 at 16:31

Quote: Originally posted by SimpleChemist-238  
Pihraña fluid Solution solves problems though, by the way I found HF at my store. I have it in its original container because I am afraid to open it.


That's pretty funny... :D
Like never asking out that hot girl cause you don't want to hear NO!

TheChemiKid - 8-2-2015 at 16:47

Everything rusting and goopy organic crud. Also when you have something stuck in the pores of a glass buchner funnel that will not come out.

Savior - 8-2-2015 at 17:05

Wasting money on it. I believe we should earn from chemistry, and not waste even a coin. Chemistry should serve us, not otherwise!

Mailinmypocket - 8-2-2015 at 18:56

If you gain knowledge then spending money to do so is not a waste. You would probably have a nervous breakdown if you saw the money I "wasted" on chemistry including my hobby and education. God knows I sometimes almost do, but then realize how proud I am about what I have learnt.

The most annoying is when people ask vicious circles of questions due to their lack of understanding of the hobby. Tell them you made a certain chemical, they respond with "what do you do with that?" Then you explain what you intend to do with it and again "THEN what do you do with it..." Eventually you respond with "because I wanted the challenge and learning experience of making indigo, or benzene, or 2-naphthol... And it goes on Etc etc

As if they are fishing for you to say "Ya got me! I'm wasting my time fruitlessly making chemicals who's names you can't pronounce for reasons you don't feel like trying to understand. I give up my hobby. Now let's go watch "Hoarders: Buried Alive" and feel our brains melt out our ears."

[Edited on 9-2-2015 by Mailinmypocket]

[Edited on 9-2-2015 by Mailinmypocket]

j_sum1 - 8-2-2015 at 19:41

To put expenses in context, you have to consider how much you are learning, how much it is really costing and how much that same learning would cost if you were to undertake a university course. I consider that my learning has been pretty inexpensive. And most of that expense has been building up a bit of equipment that will be used for a large number of different applications -- in other words, one-off expenses.

I hear ya Mailinmypocket. People don't usually get why I make stuff. My wife was really confused when I told her about my spilling of a beaker of sulfuric acid that I was boiling down. She couldn't understand why I needed it. (sigh).


As for frustrations, probably the biggest (and one I shouldn't complain about) is the intrusion of other aspects of life. It is annoying when I cannot plan on an extended period of time in the lab because I know that I only have an hour up my sleeve.
Dust for me is also an issue. The town where I live gets a regular coating of iron-rich aussie dust that blows in on the wind. My lab also doubles as a storage shed, a garden shed, a woodworking shop and has regular insect visitors. I am continually cleaning and nothing ever gets left without a cover or lid.

Hawkguy - 8-2-2015 at 19:48

Its worse explaining projects when an abused chemical is involved, eg Potassium Nitrate or Hydroiodic Acid.. Then the explanation just turns into how I'm NOT making meth and bombs...

BromicAcid - 8-2-2015 at 20:05

Quote: Originally posted by SimpleChemist-238  
2. Cleaning Glass

I may be the sloppy chemist or maybe it is common but I after done with a experiment I have voluminous quantity of glass ware with often dark caked materials or find crystals in my recent procedures that need a lot of time to clean and I may put it in my labs sink and avoid it for days before cleaning it. I am lazy about cleaning after a experiment because of others distractions such as bottling my new compound with a label or taking notes in a journal with my findings.
[Edited on 8-2-2015 by SimpleChemist-238]


I haven't seen this get any better as I move up the food chain. I hear that in big pharma some of the labs have people dedicated to glassware washing, but where I work to each their own, Sometimes washing the glassware takes longer than actually doing the experiment. Especially with high-purity chemistry where you have to wash with nitric acid and soak with ammonium bifluoride to stop metal contamination. Then again, sometimes it is relaxing to just stand at the sink for the day and clean things.

Magpie - 9-2-2015 at 09:27

Quote: Originally posted by BromicAcid  

Then again, sometimes it is relaxing to just stand at the sink for the day and clean things.


I agree. I usually clean as I go. Then place all glassware in a sink of hot soapy water and let it sit overnight, finishing up the next morning.

Frustrations: cold lab in the winter, hot lab in the summer, not enough storage.

Solution: Build (or buy) a new house centered around my lab. ;)

SimpleChemist-238 - 9-2-2015 at 11:14

I hate rusting in my lab. I seems every thing metal is rusting very fast.

Zombie - 9-2-2015 at 16:07

Have you considered washing all your steel bits w/ Phosphoric Acid?

It'll turn everything black but there will be no more rust issues. Even a spray bottle application will do.

Magpie - 9-2-2015 at 16:28

Quote: Originally posted by SimpleChemist-238  
I hate rusting in my lab. I seems every thing metal is rusting very fast.


I trust you have your hydrochloric acid well sealed. If not, that is a likely cause.

Pickardjr - 9-2-2015 at 17:16

I dont like the phobia of today associated with home chemistry. If someone was to see all my equipment set up, then I'd be in for a lot of explaining . Im just preparing solvents/reagents for other experiments. Average people really don't understand, and assume its drug related because they believe what the T.V tells them.
My other peeve is not having enough time to complete procedures that are time sensitive, thus having to postpone. I could go on but that the top two for me.

SimpleChemist-238 - 10-2-2015 at 11:05

I have some chemicals drying that have traces of HCl (Building that drying chamber soon)

Zombie - 10-2-2015 at 17:34

Someone on this site mentioned a "wine cooler" as a desiccant chamber, and I flew with the idea.
You can find small (18 x 18 x 18") cabinets for $75.00 USD new or much less used.

The cooling system can always be stripped out, and put to other uses like a chiller for a recirculating condenser water set up. The tempered glass door / magnetic seal is what sparked my interest.

gardul - 11-2-2015 at 00:42

CAT HAIR! One of my problems.. It seems no matter how careful I am I always atleast get one hair.

Dust is another problem for me as I live in Arizona and the crap blows around all day and night.

Storage is somewhat an issue for me, since I live an appartment.

Disposal for me is normally rather simple as I dont do anything that is highly toxic due to not having a fume hood. I have had a few few "wtf did i just make". at that time found a way to neutrilize and delt with it ether by vaperating or attempting to recover any metals that might have been used. ( normally I only deal with copper, Zinc and aluminum)

SPACE. It seems like I never have enough space.

I'm also in fear that my neighbors would assume i'm making meth. which I think is the bane to us all. It also just seems like most people don't want to learn. I have attempted to explan why I have an intrest in aluminum chlorohydrate and people just look at me like I'm dumb. It a very useful substence. just saying.

j_sum1 - 11-2-2015 at 02:38

Quote: Originally posted by gardul  
CAT HAIR! One of my problems.. It seems no matter how careful I am I always atleast get one hair.

So... Operation Cat Army wasn't a huge success then?

Argentum - 11-2-2015 at 02:55

People thinking I am making drugs or TNT
My friends thinking that I waste my money in some useless white powder
My dad thinking that every bit of rust was me dropping some acid

And still here I am

Zombie - 11-2-2015 at 03:51

You could make exploding drugs that leave rust stains when they go off. :D

j_sum1 - 11-2-2015 at 03:53

Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
You could make exploding drugs that leave rust stains when they go off. :D
Only if they leave a layer of cat hair and dust everywhere.

Mailinmypocket - 11-2-2015 at 05:12

Quote: Originally posted by Argentum  
People thinking I am making drugs or TNT
My friends thinking that I waste my money in some useless white powder
My dad thinking that every bit of rust was me dropping some acid

And still here I am


Yeah.... "Hmmmm.... So you turned one white powder into another white powder, what for?"

Ugh... My sincere apologies that it didn't jump out of the drying dish to sing a most impressive song for you and then explode into a shower of multicolored glitter that smells nice. :)

Zombie - 11-2-2015 at 06:09

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
You could make exploding drugs that leave rust stains when they go off. :D
Only if they leave a layer of cat hair and dust everywhere.



That's the idea of the rust filled exploding drugs. To blow the cat hair up, up, and awayyyyy.

That was just plain sad...

gardul - 11-2-2015 at 11:31

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
Quote: Originally posted by gardul  
CAT HAIR! One of my problems.. It seems no matter how careful I am I always atleast get one hair.

So... Operation Cat Army wasn't a huge success then?


as if right now now. My soxhlet extractor cracked. Not really sure how or why. but I have to wait until next weekend to order a new one.

Argentum - 11-2-2015 at 15:46

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
You could make exploding drugs that leave rust stains when they go off. :D
Only if they leave a layer of cat hair and dust everywhere.


I let cats to gardul, they give me a nasty allergy. At least I know who to blame if I see cats flying


[Edited on 11-2-2015 by Argentum]

Argentum - 11-2-2015 at 15:51

Quote: Originally posted by Mailinmypocket  
Quote: Originally posted by Argentum  
People thinking I am making drugs or TNT
My friends thinking that I waste my money in some useless white powder
My dad thinking that every bit of rust was me dropping some acid

And still here I am


Yeah.... "Hmmmm.... So you turned one white powder into another white powder, what for?"

Ugh... My sincere apologies that it didn't jump out of the drying dish to sing a most impressive song for you and then explode into a shower of multicolored glitter that smells nice. :)


They can make some loud noise -music to my ears- And explode. Not colorful or with a nice smell, though.

BTW, sorry for the double posting, I need to learn how to quote twice in a post

gardul - 11-2-2015 at 16:22

Quote: Originally posted by Argentum  
Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
You could make exploding drugs that leave rust stains when they go off. :D
Only if they leave a layer of cat hair and dust everywhere.


I let cats to gardul, they give me a nasty allergy. At least I know who to blame if I see cats flying


[Edited on 11-2-2015 by Argentum]


that would be amazing! Kinda cool too. But their are laws in the States about expeirments like that on animals.

Etaoin Shrdlu - 11-2-2015 at 17:39

Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
You could make exploding drugs that leave rust stains when they go off. :D

I laughed pretty hard.

My main frustration is lack of time.

SimpleChemist-238 - 11-2-2015 at 18:18

I love the comment about cat hair. I have the recurring night mare that my cat will find its way around a double locked door and into my lab so it may drink all my evaporating solutions, the sweat taste of ethylene glycol has killed many of pets... :(

Metacelsus - 11-2-2015 at 18:26

I don't think ethylene glycol tastes like sweat. Sweat tastes salty.

:D

Zombie - 11-2-2015 at 18:40

I attempted to write a "love letter" to a girl once. It started out...

Dear Sweatheart.:(

It sort of went down hill from there.

Funkerman23 - 12-2-2015 at 02:00

I'll say this much: Nothing is as irritating as constantly being asked if I "cook". Like I want to spend time in the Federal pokey just so Clem, johnny and Ringo can get a buzz. How I loathe that damn show..
And when I try to clean my glassware and I can't get it clean enough to 'sheet' water. Its especially bad in Sepp funnels( so many **** little beady droplets!!). I don't know what I'm doing wrong but man does it drive me mad. Don't get me started on OTC product MSDS's...

Chemosynthesis - 12-2-2015 at 05:25

As said above and elsewhere, I despise how frequently I had been asked if I "cook" as well. Plenty of pharmacologically actives at work not to want to do so in my spare time, especially at great personal risk. Who would be dumb enough to show and then tell someone you didn't know extremely well?

I have had people ask if I take work home. That can be weird. As far as what I work on specifically, even if I didn't sign NDA's and other kinds of paperwork asking not to talk about some things with outsiders.... What business is it of yours unless you are a colleague? Either too nosey for their own good or attempting some espionage. And if anyone thinks that sounds paranoid, ask your place of employment or any alma maters if they have been hacked/targeted/etc. just this past year, I saw footage of someone arrested for espionage in a facility I visited over a largely academic piece of research with health implications.
Quote: Originally posted by Savior  
Wasting money on it. I believe we should earn from chemistry, and not waste even a coin. Chemistry should serve us, not otherwise!
... Awkward. Troll?
Running a lab of any kind costs money. Resources, including labor, are scarce. Education is comprised of services, and labs of goods. There is no way around this nor is it servitude.

[Edited on 12-2-2015 by Chemosynthesis]

Zombie - 12-2-2015 at 10:22

I have to agree withe you Chemosynthesis.

The last statement there... This is a new chapter in my life (chemistry), and the thought of it "earning" is not something that even crossed my mind.
I gained an interest believing this will be an expansion of my understanding of Human physiology. (lofty goals)

"Chemistry should serve us" Yes. That statement I understand, and agree with.
The first sentence however, "Wasting money on it. I believe we should earn from chemistry, and not waste even a coin."
Perhaps that was mis-stated...

All of my hobbies cost money. I never expected this to be any different.

[Edited on 12-2-2015 by Zombie]

radiance88 - 12-2-2015 at 11:00

I don't think that there isn't anything particularly frustrating as a DIY chemist more than just general ignorance of the general population, as that's where most of all of the other problems we encounter come from. The drug laws, the legal restrictions and requirements, the paranoia, mistrust and fear all stem from ignorance of the society we live in.

When an average person meets another who says he's a chemist - he'll have no way to relate to him and his chemical formulas. When an average person meets another who has a personal chem lab, the only things he'd be able to relate to that concept are drugs and bombs. The problem here is the average person - who really doesn't really know much, has to resort to media skewed stereotypes to comprehend something. It's a societal thing reflecting how the average person understands these things, and our entire legal system revolves around this familiarity (or rather complete lack of it).

Honestly people don't know any better. So instead of telling them the straight beans, I water it down and make my passion more relatable to them by also playing on stereotypes. If you tell someone "I'm an amateur chemist" they'll think DRUGS!! BOMBS!!.. but if you tell them you're an "amateur scientist" they'll think "hey this dude is probably smart and knows some interesting stuff".

When people ask, I don't tell them I'm an amateur chemist and my love for chemistry. I tell them I'm an amateur scientist (which is something that has a lot more positive and less negative connotations). I tell them I'm passionate about science in all shapes and forms (which is very f*cking true), and that chemistry just happens to be one of many things I am interested in. I'll show them some of my non-chem science experiments, and if they find out about the chem, it's always just about your passion for -all- science and not just chem in particular. You have to water this stuff down and make it relatable to other people. Think Bill Nye the Science Guy, not Jesse and Heisenberg.

We live in a worldwide fear based society. We make laws everytime that something goes wrong, but people don't understand that laws they make are at best a patchwork to cover up a much larger societal problem. Making shit illegal doesn't deter the people who are fullheartedly set on something, be it good or bad. But ignorance breeds ignorance. There is just not enough science found in the common classroom or in informal settings for the common person to have found any great interest for it.

If people actually knew a thing or two about chemistry then they'd be able to at least appreciate what we do. They don't know shit about science, and as a result resort to stereotypes they know of. The problem is that society is afraid of things it can't easily understand or control. Whenever something unfortunate happens like one idiot kid in a million doing something stupid and setting himself on fire, society panics and makes a law. That's why we have to deal with all these fucked up laws.. which in turn restrict the applications that hobbyists do, and what can be demonstrated and/or performed in a classroom. Because god forbid you teach a kid how to properly use a bunsen burner.

If we don't have hands-on experiments and things that get us interested into science at an early age, we won't ever know the joys of it when we get old, or be able to have an appreciation for it. And so the cycle continues - something unfortunate happens, we blame it on lack of regulations, we create more, and then we wonder why no one fucking even likes or understands science anymore.
The children are the future of our society and if we neglect showing them how to make and do -all this cool shit-, then our society's brain capital goes down the drain as it gets older, the cycle intensifies, and we start getting taught that we used to ride around on dinosaurs a few years before Jesus.

It's a general societal trend we have to work around, and we have to play carefully to people's conceptions. There's a lot of negative stereotypes going around so we need to work around those and generate positive ones.

Magpie - 12-2-2015 at 11:43

An anecdote from 2 days ago: In my local busy Starbucks there is a chart of the radionuclides on the wall (~4' x 4). For most people it's just a piece of art. But this day a friend and I were discussing the fact that my smoke alarm containing 241 Am had instructions on the back to replace it every 10 years. (My friend has degrees in both electrical and nuclear engineering.) We both agreed that it could not be due to a short half-life as that would make it too dangerous for consumer use. Then I said that I would check the chart on the wall. Coincidentally one of my chemical engineering former colleagues saw me standing on a chair looking for 241 Am on the chart. He grabbed me, and with a big smile on his face, said "You might as well tattoo the word 'NERD' on your forehead." Sadly, I agreed that he was right.

I understand that less and less young people in the US are pursuing science based careers. So we are just forfeiting our good-paying jobs to green card holders from India and China. They don't want to be poor all their lives and will gladly take our jobs.

[Edited on 12-2-2015 by Magpie]

mr.crow - 12-2-2015 at 18:13

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  
An anecdote from 2 days ago: In my local busy Starbucks there is a chart of the radionuclides on the wall (~4' x 4). For most people it's just a piece of art. But this day a friend and I were discussing the fact that my smoke alarm containing 241 Am had instructions on the back to replace it every 10 years. (My friend has degrees in both electrical and nuclear engineering.) We both agreed that it could not be due to a short half-life as that would make it too dangerous for consumer use. Then I said that I would check the chart on the wall. Coincidentally one of my chemical engineering former colleagues saw me standing on a chair looking for 241 Am on the chart. He grabbed me, and with a big smile on his face, said "You might as well tattoo the word 'NERD' on your forehead." Sadly, I agreed that he was right.
[Edited on 12-2-2015 by Magpie]


So what if you like science posters? I bet your former colleague does too.

Everyone loves "nerdy" things but are afraid to admit it and make fun of those that do as a form of projection.

Magpie - 12-2-2015 at 18:42

Yes, he's a nerd too. When I first met him he told me his approach to problems was to start from the very basics. This might be by writing a differential equation.

He just loves to harass me - it's a game we play. ;)

But when I was looking at the chart I was having fun. I was oblivious to my surroundings, as I should be.

hydride_shift - 13-2-2015 at 01:20

Quote: Originally posted by Argentum  

My dad thinking that every bit of rust was me dropping some acid



HCl and HNO3 fumes will leave rust on EVERYTHING, and will coat the shiny new tools with rust in a very short time :(. Not having access to stuff like rotovaps, NMR/IR, or reagent grade materials are frustrating when you have worked in a fully equipped lab before. In saying that, the journey to make the most of what you can access and discovering more along the way is really what this hobby is all about!

Praxichys - 13-2-2015 at 06:20

I have serveral frustrations:

1. Funding. I am at the point where my lab is worth quite a bit of money. Unfortunately, the next steps are things like a GC/MS system, which cost tens of thousands of dollars - a purchase I may never be able to justify, especially since I may be married in a year or two and thinking about children.

2. Fumes and corrosion - Like many above me have mentioned, controlling corrosion and chemical escape into a household environment is tricky. My fume hood does not run 24/7, so storing volitiles takes a lot of effort and money. A heated outbuilding would be nice, but easements do not allow for such a structure on my current property. This would also cost a great deal of money.

3. The stigma - I hate being labeled as a cook or a terrorist by default. Although I really do not try and hide anything, I am always a bit apprehensive about a curious neighbor getting the wrong idea, making some allegations, and starting an unnecessary and costly legal battle.

4. Time - I am a mechanical engineer by trade, which often requires travel and long hours at the office. Chemistry usually demands large chunks of free time which is something of a rarity for me as an engineer, homeowner and student. This is only projected to get worse through marriage and children.

MrBlank1 - 15-2-2015 at 15:30

Pretty much all the above, minus cat and dog hair, add beard hair. A couple of others:

1) Travel - Having to drive 4 hours round trip for some 37% formaldehyde solution, 3 hours for tech grade 98% sulfuric or zinc dust or anything else not available at a hardware store.

2) Waiting - In particular, waiting 2-4 weeks for laboy glass, to avoid the 1000% markup sigma or thermo-fischer ask here in West Australia. Same applies with most electronics. Waiting for a $5 ph meter, to avoid paying $50 at a local hydroponics or aquarium store.

But yeah, straight up the stigma, and blank looks or glazed over eyes when you begin explaining pretty much anything. And the "what for?", when it's not about the why, it's about the how. People that don't understand it's about knowledge, the goal is unimportant, the journey is all.

That being said, poster talk got me thinking, and looking at my wall. A poster of Scarface above my poster of the periodic table. I might need to take my movie poster down. :P

Zombie - 15-2-2015 at 19:26

I still have a Farrah Fawcett... No not really

ScarFace huh?

Farrah_Fawcett_Poster.jpg - 515kB

MrBlank1 - 16-2-2015 at 04:15

Dude, it took me 15 minutes to get that. I'm taking a leak when the penny dropped and I burst out with "BAHAHAHAHA". Daughter come running to see what was wrong. ROFL.

But yeah, what straight guy wouldn't hit this


Scarface_(18).jpg - 35kB

Zombie - 16-2-2015 at 04:18

Paybacks a bitch.

I have tears rolling, and it's just getting light out.:D:D:D

Sulaiman - 16-2-2015 at 05:59

For my new/revived hobby of Chemistry I use this forum and find 'nerds'
that are afraid of public opinion and perception.

Another of my hobbies is Electronics and Tesla Coils and there are folk who have a similar perception of public perception problems.

My other main hobby is amateur radio construction and operation,
and folk on my favourite forum for this have neighbour problems like 'your antenna will damage my TV'

Just to complete the round up, I'm a bearded white convert to Islam.

So far, no problems, enjoy your individuality, be nice and have a nice day.

but keep looking for those black helicopters :P
or other bullies.

[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Sulaiman]

Zombie - 16-2-2015 at 06:09

Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman  
For my new/revived hobby of Chemistry I use this forum and find 'nerds'
that are afraid of public opinion and perception.

Another of my hobbies is Electronics and Tesla Coils and there are folk who have similar public perception problems.

My other main hobby is amateur radio construction and operation,
and folk on my favourite forum for this have neighbour problems like 'your antenna will damage my TV'

Just to complete the roundup, I'm a bearded white convert to Islam.

So far, no problems, enjoy your individuality, be nice and have a nice day.
but keep looking for those black helicopters :P



Was this an complement, an insult or a statement?

This forum is soooo hard to follow.

Dr.Bob - 16-2-2015 at 06:20

Zombie,

I remember that poster from high school days. I always did like Farrah...

I have different problems, as I don't have a lack of access to glassware, or even most chemicals. I would love to do more chemistry at home, but I am so spoiled from working in real labs that working at home is just so much more difficult, and I have gotten used to doing things a certain way at work, so the cost and effort to duplicate that at home would be impossible. Worse yet, while I enjoy teaching younger people about chemistry, I almost hate to encourage them now, due to the job situation in chemistry right now. I hope that it will improve soon, but most chemists I know right now are not doing well in their jobs, many are either laid off, working for way less than they used to, or waiting for the axe to fall. So while I love chemistry, the job environment is tough right now, which makes me less likely to encourage people into it.

But doing it as an educational goal, not as a career, is a great idea. I always loved the idea of people like Thomas Edison doing chemistry as a young man, as did many people back 100 years ago, which lead to many great things. And I really like the Renaissance man concept of learning about many areas, which I have also tried to do, chemistry, computers/software, mechanical things, electricity, and more. I even made a good solder joint the other day, the first in years.

But even as a professional chemist, I hear a lot of people who assume all chemists are either crazy, nerdy (that one is close to right), or drug cooks. But I just revel in it, and don't mind some of the jokes and Breaking Bad references. I like the series, to some degree, but I do often try to correct the science, as they often are not real good on that, likely for a good reason. I'm sure that lots of kids have since broken open road flares looking for phosphorous...

Zombie - 16-2-2015 at 06:27

I have a buddy that retired from Stony Brook NY, and he is substitute teaching at the local high school, and at Tallahassee Community college.

That might be an option Dr. Bob. Sort of get your fill of working at what you love, teaching younger lots, and having free time to learn to solder better.

Just sayin'

Sulaiman - 16-2-2015 at 07:23

not an insult (I hope) as the 'nerd' term I took from the posts.
it was just to say 'don't worry' it's a common perception of all kinds of independant/interesting people.
There are intolerant people of all ages, be kind to them.

gardul - 16-2-2015 at 09:09

Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman  
not an insult (I hope) as the 'nerd' term I took from the posts.
it was just to say 'don't worry' it's a common perception of all kinds of independant/interesting people.
There are intolerant people of all ages, be kind to them.


I AM NOT A NERD! *goes back to playing KSP as he waits for a reaction to finish*

Praxichys - 16-2-2015 at 12:40

Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman  
I AM NOT A NERD! *goes back to playing KSP as he waits for a reaction to finish*

Second. That, and Scott Manley's videos. Every. Single. One.

Hullloooo, Scott Manley here...

Brain&Force - 16-2-2015 at 17:34

Things that frustrate me as a DIY chemist?

I can't get any glassware at home, and I can't do what I want at university!

All of you have first world problems :P

Argentum - 17-2-2015 at 17:35

Adding one more to the list...

Assholes (sorry about the word but is what I see) that read "news" about "things big companies don't want you to know", so their definition of chemical is "carcinogenic stuff that is added to food to make it cheaper".

It makes me angry the things that they say.. and other assholes eat that bullshit, and the cycle keeps going

I was reading some stuff about "the toxicity of salt". It said that iodine was the most toxic element and fluorine was radioactive:o (here fluorides and iodates are added to salt) and it compared common salt with some miraculous "marine salt" that has "60 of the 84 elements in nature in the right proportion as it is on the blood"... Also said that salt had a chemical to make it white.. and that stuff makes salt carcinogenic... But don't worry, the cure of cancer is bicarbonate and lemon juice...

I should stop complaining and go to sleep.

EDIT: just realized that when I write the word toxic in my cellphone, the keyboard shows the word chemical first...


[Edited on 18-2-2015 by Argentum]

SimpleChemist-238 - 25-2-2015 at 11:17

... Wow, just wow.

Molecular Manipulations - 25-2-2015 at 11:19

Argentum I'll reply later, I've got a bridge to jump off of.

Chemosynthesis - 25-2-2015 at 11:25

Quote: Originally posted by Argentum  
Adding one more to the list...

Assholes (sorry about the word but is what I see) that read "news" about "things big companies don't want you to know", so their definition of chemical is "carcinogenic stuff that is added to food to make it cheaper".

It makes me angry the things that they say.. and other assholes eat that bullshit, and the cycle keeps going

Ever notice how when you don't confirm their anti-scientific postulations, you must be somehow "in" on the conspiracy?

I get that a lot. Yeah, scientists are all colluding to hide the cure for [terrible of disease of choice] and poison the population. Especially when it seems like most of them are postdocs who have only been getting paid 30-40k for the last ten years to do it. Makes sense. Keep buying those books/supplements/insider tips in the multibillion dollar fraud industry and hate those evil scientists.

Etaoin Shrdlu - 25-2-2015 at 17:07

Don't lie, Chemosynthesis, you just want to force people to eat gluten (this is a thing you can do, right?).

/s

Tungsten.Chromium - 25-5-2015 at 21:24

Sorry to bump an old thread, but

Apart from all of the major things everyone's been talking about, one of the things that makes me crazy is the friend that wants to learn, but don't put in any effort.

I couldn't tell you how many times I've been trying to talk to a friend of mine about something chemistry related only to have them reply, "I wish I knew what you were talking about." I always offer to take them under my wing and teach them what I know about this wonderful world of chemistry, and they're always so excited right then and there.

Then the next day comes when I call them to get together so we can get started and it always ends the same. "Uh, I'm busy today, lets get together tomorrow." I try for the next few days but it always gets forgotten. Makes me sad knowing what a cool world they're missing out on.

byko3y - 25-5-2015 at 22:13

Chemosynthesis, for example, sodium nitrite is included into a lot of meat products, and also maybe some other preservatives. You might have heard about 5 years old burger that had a look of a new one. Sodium nitrite is capable of creating nitrosamines, which are carcinogens. But a meat that was treated with sodium nitrite has much longer storage time, and that's why is cheaper.
Another kind of issues is refined food, like flour made from wheat. Refined food can be stored for a longer time, because it lacks important nutrients and enzymes that would lead to a much faster bacterial growth. Burger bun is a nice example, because it also contains a refined sugar. The problem is that a human organism receives carbohydrates in excess, while gets not enough important vitamins and minerals. That's how the fat US population is created.
I do not advocate those retards who are afraid of synthetic vineguar, I'm just want to remind you that the problem actually exists.

[Edited on 26-5-2015 by byko3y]

diggafromdover - 26-5-2015 at 09:10

Quote: Originally posted by gardul  
CAT HAIR! One of my problems.. It seems no matter how careful I am I always atleast get one hair.


Might I recommend Sphynx cats. I have two and zero cat hair. They also help with the mad scientist look.

xfusion44 - 26-5-2015 at 10:40

What frustrates me, is my today's 14% copper carbonate yield...

I used 1 mole CuSO4 and 1 mole sodium carbonate... Should get about 220g of product... After filtrating it for whole day and removing water, I've ended with only little over 30 grams. :'(

The Volatile Chemist - 26-5-2015 at 12:04

Quote: Originally posted by xfusion44  
What frustrates me, is my today's 14% copper carbonate yield...

I used 1 mole CuSO4 and 1 mole sodium carbonate... Should get about 220g of product... After filtrating it for whole day and removing water, I've ended with only little over 30 grams. :'(

You have to use excess carbonate to push the equilibrium to the right. I ran into the problem recently with Cobalt chloride. Totally an expensive problem with the cobalt salt if you don't precipitate it all.

aga - 26-5-2015 at 12:59

Good call TVC.

Quite often i get all carried away in the exact maths of the stoichimetry and forget all about Reality, then get disappointed at the result.

xfusion44 - 27-5-2015 at 03:00

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist  
Quote: Originally posted by xfusion44  
What frustrates me, is my today's 14% copper carbonate yield...

I used 1 mole CuSO4 and 1 mole sodium carbonate... Should get about 220g of product... After filtrating it for whole day and removing water, I've ended with only little over 30 grams. :'(

You have to use excess carbonate to push the equilibrium to the right. I ran into the problem recently with Cobalt chloride. Totally an expensive problem with the cobalt salt if you don't precipitate it all.


Didn't know things work so bad in reality, compared to the calculations, well I'd understand if I'd get 150g at least, but 30g? Come on.. I mean, I should get at least a lot more than 30g right?

Otherwise, thanks for explanation.

woelen - 27-5-2015 at 05:49

Are you sure you added Na2CO3? Common cleaning soda from supermarkets is Na2CO3.10H2O. So, a lot of its weight is water and if you used that and expected the weight to be Na2CO3, then the majority of metal ions is not precipitated!

Another reason for lossing a lot of metal ions is that you do not get pure carbonate, but a mixed hydroxide/carbonate. You get something like CuCO3·2Cu(OH)2. The OH(-) comes from two carbonate ions, the remainder being HCO3(-), which remains in solution:

2CO3(2-) + 2H2O <--> 2OH(-) + 2HCO3(-)

With copper ions you get the following:

3Cu(2+) + 4OH(-) + CO3(2-) --> CuCO3·2Cu(OH)2

The net reaction then is:

3Cu(2+) + 5CO3(2-) + 4H2O --> CuCO3·2Cu(OH)2 + 4HCO3(-)

You see that you need 5 carbonate ions to precipitate 3 copper ions.

Yet another thing which brings down your number is that CuCO3·2Cu(OH)2 weighs quite a lot less than 3 CuCO3's.

[Edited on 27-5-15 by woelen]

byko3y - 27-5-2015 at 16:50

What frustrates me is that I can acutally make explosives, while it's hard for me to obtain acetone and toluene (and also phosphorus chlorides, elemental phosphorus and permanganate). But I can freely purchase iodine, iodides and hypophosphites. God only knows why some particular chemicals are banned in some countries.

xfusion44 - 27-5-2015 at 19:06

@woelen

I was using NaCO3 that I've made from NaHCO3. I was heating NaHCO3 to about 150C and mixing it well, to get rid of all of the CO2. I was constantly checking the weight. At the end I've got exactly the same weight of product as I've calculated it to be, so I'm assuming that there was not much water in my NaCO3. Well, maybe even my NaHCO3 wasn't pure in first place :-/ I noticed that there was a lot of unreacted CuSO4 in the mixture and there was also some white stuff, but I don't know if it was NaCO3 or just precipitated Na2SO4...

Thanks!

BR, xfusion

[Edited on 28-5-2015 by xfusion44]

[Edited on 28-5-2015 by xfusion44]

xfusion44 - 27-5-2015 at 19:14

Quote: Originally posted by byko3y  
What frustrates me is that I can acutally make explosives, while it's hard for me to obtain acetone and toluene (and also phosphorus chlorides, elemental phosphorus and permanganate). But I can freely purchase iodine, iodides and hypophosphites. God only knows why some particular chemicals are banned in some countries.


Yeah, this is also well known to me. In USA you can buy drain cleaners with H2SO4 anywhere, but not here in the EU, but there is probably something that is easier to get here than in the US. You just can't get all of the chemicals in one country.

The Volatile Chemist - 31-5-2015 at 14:20

Nitrates and nitrites are a pain to get here. I've never seen a good source in the mid- US.

unfrozen - 31-5-2015 at 19:22

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist  
Nitrates and nitrites are a pain to get here. I've never seen a good source in the mid- US.

Is this anywhere useful? Prices are better in larger sizes.

Sodium Nitrite, $7.50 / 2lb
http://www.dudadiesel.com/choose_item.php?id=2sniteF
Sodium Nitrate, $3.75 / 1 lb
http://www.dudadiesel.com/choose_item.php?id=1sn
Potassium Nitrate, 3.95 / 1 lb
http://www.dudadiesel.com/choose_item.php?id=1pn

szuko03 - 1-6-2015 at 06:48

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist  
Nitrates and nitrites are a pain to get here. I've never seen a good source in the mid- US.


I can get potassium nitrate at a home depot like store called Lowes, sorry I am never sure what store names are national and which arent but you can get stump remover that is pure potassium nitrate. I got mine for 7 dollars a pound, which seems just a little higher then ordering it online. You may want to look at the stump removers in your area just be careful because stupid me bought one that wasnt nitrate eons ago.

Texium - 1-6-2015 at 08:01

Quote: Originally posted by szuko03  
Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist  
Nitrates and nitrites are a pain to get here. I've never seen a good source in the mid- US.


I can get potassium nitrate at a home depot like store called Lowes, sorry I am never sure what store names are national and which arent but you can get stump remover that is pure potassium nitrate. I got mine for 7 dollars a pound, which seems just a little higher then ordering it online. You may want to look at the stump removers in your area just be careful because stupid me bought one that wasnt nitrate eons ago.
Well luckily for you that other stump remover that you bought is likely sodium metabisulfite, which is very useful as a reducing agent for cleaning up nasty oxidizing stuff like dichromate, and also used for making the peculiar Chevreul's salt. I was fortunate enough to find both that and the potassium nitrate version side by side on the shelf at Lowe's, so I happily bought both. Although, the KNO3 one is really quite overpriced and not super pure, so when I run out of it (probably soon) I'll buy some from Duda Diesel instead. Their products are of quite good quality, affordable, and they have great service too.

szuko03 - 1-6-2015 at 08:29

^that is true but by eons ago I mean I wasnt even into that side of chemistry and was just trying to surprise my friends. And its purity is good enough for sugar rockets which was what I was interested in at the time. I am also lucky in the sense that nothing gets thrown away so that sodium metabisulfite, which it is I remember the name, is still in the garage.

To be honest it is sometimes surprising what you can just buy, its like how can they "regulate" something and then sell it on the shelf in a public place for cash.

[Edited on 1-6-2015 by szuko03]

SimpleChemist-238 - 1-6-2015 at 13:04

Man, I can't stand the black helicopters always flying by. But when at the end of a hard day I can always go to this forum and laugh at the humor and terrible chemistry jokes. It is the strange people on this forum who dream of destroying the Earth that I call my closest friends. Also it looks like our emails are safe from the NSA for a few days well Congress argues about the Freedom Act!

The Volatile Chemist - 4-6-2015 at 12:11

Quote: Originally posted by zts16  
Quote: Originally posted by szuko03  
Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist  
Nitrates and nitrites are a pain to get here. I've never seen a good source in the mid- US.


I can get potassium nitrate at a home depot like store called Lowes, sorry I am never sure what store names are national and which arent but you can get stump remover that is pure potassium nitrate. I got mine for 7 dollars a pound, which seems just a little higher then ordering it online. You may want to look at the stump removers in your area just be careful because stupid me bought one that wasnt nitrate eons ago.
Well luckily for you that other stump remover that you bought is likely sodium metabisulfite, which is very useful as a reducing agent for cleaning up nasty oxidizing stuff like dichromate, and also used for making the peculiar Chevreul's salt. I was fortunate enough to find both that and the potassium nitrate version side by side on the shelf at Lowe's, so I happily bought both. Although, the KNO3 one is really quite overpriced and not super pure, so when I run out of it (probably soon) I'll buy some from Duda Diesel instead. Their products are of quite good quality, affordable, and they have great service too.

I have a Lowe's nearby. What were the brand names? I'd looked on lowe's site, but they don't have anything tagged with 'nitrate'.
Quote: Originally posted by SimpleChemist-238  
Man, I can't stand the black helicopters always flying by. But when at the end of a hard day I can always go to this forum and laugh at the humor and terrible chemistry jokes. It is the strange people on this forum who dream of destroying the Earth that I call my closest friends. Also it looks like our emails are safe from the NSA for a few days well Congress argues about the Freedom Act!

What was the result of this, did they decide yet? I first heard about this on Wikileak's twitter page. It seemed like it was a long time ago.

Texium - 4-6-2015 at 14:10

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist  
Quote: Originally posted by zts16  
Quote: Originally posted by szuko03  
Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist  
Nitrates and nitrites are a pain to get here. I've never seen a good source in the mid- US.


I can get potassium nitrate at a home depot like store called Lowes, sorry I am never sure what store names are national and which arent but you can get stump remover that is pure potassium nitrate. I got mine for 7 dollars a pound, which seems just a little higher then ordering it online. You may want to look at the stump removers in your area just be careful because stupid me bought one that wasnt nitrate eons ago.
Well luckily for you that other stump remover that you bought is likely sodium metabisulfite, which is very useful as a reducing agent for cleaning up nasty oxidizing stuff like dichromate, and also used for making the peculiar Chevreul's salt. I was fortunate enough to find both that and the potassium nitrate version side by side on the shelf at Lowe's, so I happily bought both. Although, the KNO3 one is really quite overpriced and not super pure, so when I run out of it (probably soon) I'll buy some from Duda Diesel instead. Their products are of quite good quality, affordable, and they have great service too.

I have a Lowe's nearby. What were the brand names? I'd looked on lowe's site, but they don't have anything tagged with 'nitrate'.
The potassium nitrate one is Spectracide brand, and comes in a black bottle with a pointy lid that works as a sort of pour spout. The metabisulfite one is Bonide brand and comes in a white, squarish bottle with a purple lid.

aga - 4-6-2015 at 14:23

The Most frustrating thing is NOT knowing when to run away screaming instead of putting on the gas mask and trying to take control.

It's a fine line methinks.

[Edited on 4-6-2015 by aga]

binbin - 5-6-2015 at 03:56

Quote: Originally posted by Pickardjr  
I dont like the phobia of today associated with home chemistry. If someone was to see all my equipment set up, then I'd be in for a lot of explaining . Im just preparing solvents/reagents for other experiments. Average people really don't understand, and assume its drug related because they believe what the T.V tells them.
My other peeve is not having enough time to complete procedures that are time sensitive, thus having to postpone. I could go on but that the top two for me.


Most people don't have hobbies. They suspect if a grown man/woman is performing chemistry, that is it for economic gain on the side. Breaking Bad has enforced this stereotype. Do I blame them? Not at all! I think they are just looking out for the community. It's still infuriating though.

And here lies the one reason I have a tough time making male friends in my community... nobody has interesting hobbies past "lets get drunk and watch the game." Chemistry? Astronomy? Metal working? Tinkering? Computers/Tech? There aren't many nerds or interesting people in my city of 250,000.

However I think the most frustrating/stressful things as a home chemist are:

1. Control of fumes with proper equipment. Fume hoods are just too damn expensive.

2. Fear of chemical fires, and/or fear of proper storage of your chemicals.



[Edited on 5-6-2015 by binbin]

Loptr - 5-6-2015 at 04:25

Quote: Originally posted by binbin  
Quote: Originally posted by Pickardjr  
I dont like the phobia of today associated with home chemistry. If someone was to see all my equipment set up, then I'd be in for a lot of explaining . Im just preparing solvents/reagents for other experiments. Average people really don't understand, and assume its drug related because they believe what the T.V tells them.
My other peeve is not having enough time to complete procedures that are time sensitive, thus having to postpone. I could go on but that the top two for me.


Most people don't have hobbies. They suspect if a grown man/woman is performing chemistry, that is it for economic gain on the side. Breaking Bad has enforced this stereotype. Do I blame them? Not at all! I think they are just looking out for the community. It's still infuriating though.

And here lies the one reason I have a tough time making male friends in my community... nobody has interesting hobbies past "lets get drunk and watch the game." Chemistry? Astronomy? Metal working? Tinkering? Computers/Tech? There aren't many nerds or interesting people in my city of 250,000.

However I think the most frustrating/stressful things as a home chemist are:

1. Control of fumes with proper equipment. Fume hoods are just too damn expensive.

2. Fear of chemical fires, and/or fear of proper storage of your chemicals.



[Edited on 5-6-2015 by binbin]


Actually, I would say that there has been a resurgence in various hobbies due to the maker movement. When I was in Charlottesville (UVA) there was a huge group that would get together in the hacker/open spaces to do just this; not to mention the un-conferences.

Just look at all the young people interested in hobbies that are know sharing it with the world in maker magazines, youtube, instructables, etc.

We are many. :)

[Edited on 5-6-2015 by Loptr]

Magpie - 5-6-2015 at 11:57

Recently I have made several electro-mechanical devices to support my chemistry hobby. I talk about these in a tangential way with my friends at morning coffee. Of course they always ask: and what is the purpose of this device?

I give a circumspect answer and they drop it. One electrical engineer was quite interested in my stepper motor stirrer. He wanted me to bring it to Starbucks, plug it in to the wall outlet, and give a demonstration. I replied. "No way. I'm not bringing a black box with wires coming out of it! Someone would call the bomb squad." His answer: "And well they should." This is a sad state of affairs. :(

The Volatile Chemist - 7-6-2015 at 13:36

Have there ever been SM organized chem hobby conferences/events?

aga - 7-6-2015 at 13:50

Nope.

We're all Odd and live all over the planet, and don't really do 'people events' as well as we can type stuff into computers or stuff reagents into beakers before blasting them with heat.

A bit like You i guess.

P.S. an Event would cost a huge amount of money, simply down to the air-fares, hotels etc

P.P.S. the more Capable of the SM membership would be a bit paranoid as well, and would think it a FBI/DEA/CIA event designed to flush them out.

P.P.P.S. Cool ! That means that i can come to the party !

Sulaiman - 7-6-2015 at 14:57

the main thing that frustrates me as a D.I.Y. Chemist is my lack of any real depth of knowledge

and I've not yet discovered the joy of cleaning glassware
or the skill of not using so much at once.

byko3y - 7-6-2015 at 16:40

I'm so pissed because of lack of well developed/known and easy methods of preparation of common reagents.
As you may know, some time ago I was forced to develop anthranilic acid synthesis all over again (because I can't just leave my 5% yield as is and pretend I've succeded), until s.c.wack found a 100 years old article with absolutely the same procedure which had been forgotten, and instead tonns of non-reproducible procedures were spread all over the internets.
Same thing happenned to elemental phosphorus thread - it is filled from the begginning to the end with procedures, which are mostly untested and the rest suits for industrial production, but not for a home chemist. In thirteen (13) years nobody managed to find an answer, it's like a huge bin that collects all the useless ideas to avoid flooding the forum with dozens of threads. I hope soon I will prove that you can actually make phosphorus by means of kitchenware and basic OTC chemicals.
Aluminium isopropoxide, acetonitrile, pyridine, acetic anhydride, sulfuric acid, sulfuryl chloride, thionyl chloride, dimethyl carbonate - those are usefull and potentially easy to make reagents, but scantily explored. I was going to put oxalyl chloride into the list, but there were few members on the forum who actually performed extensive research on the subject and some experiments, however, there's still a lot to explore in the oxalyl chloride synthesis.
I want to remind you about a famous aluminium reduction of nitroalkenes, which was unknown for so many years, while in fact it was well known to chemists hundred years ago.
I'm starting to think there are some agents on forums who intentionally discuss useless procedures to hide the truth, which lies in the fact nobody knows shit and the usable method is yet to be discovered or rediscovered.
Some people blame Lerner for being a dick, but let's look at facts - he's one of few members who actually tested the procedures. Half of them are not usable at home, but who cares?

The Volatile Chemist - 10-6-2015 at 12:18

That's why I continually push for some sort of organizational measure. The SM Wiki is a good idea, but it doesn't have the expansive qualities to organize large amounts of information and procedures. I'm looking for some good model to use for such a measure, but I haven't found one that works.

byko3y - 10-6-2015 at 15:11

That's pretty much what rhodium was trying to do and sucked hard, because he did not perform most of the procedures he gather into his site. I'm talking about these articles:
http://bitnest.ca/Rhodium/chemistry/nitro2amine.mg-n2h4-hcoo...
http://bitnest.ca/Rhodium/chemistry/oxime2amine.mg-af.html
http://bitnest.ca/Rhodium/chemistry/debenzylation.zn-af.html
Some1 could gather his private site the verified information about procedures his collegues and him already performed. Like google docs.
But the other problem that bothers me - not much of people seem to care about researching basic reagents, and those who actually do, seem to have too few knowledge and/or equipment to perform the correct analysis, like it was in the TEMPO case, where I still got no confirmation that the resulting compound is actually a TEMPO and not substituted compound or some mix.
I remember my attempt to post a message to professional chemists about a need for developing procedures for basic reagents preparation, and I was laughed at, because YOU CAN'T MAKE MONEY ON IT. Why anyone would bother himself with chemistry if he can't make money, right, Jessie?
And thanks god today we have enough access to science journals, because otherwise we would be like blind kittens having no idea where to go and what is this world. But still a lot of knowledge is obscured, e.g. few people seem to know about dithionite and thiourea peroxide, while those reagent are so much OTC, and ther's no way amateur chemist can make NaBH4 ro LAH.
Once again in case you haven't understood: you can't take dithionite or thiourea peroxide away from people, just like you can't ban hydrogen peroxide or sulfuric acid, because those reagent are used a lot in different industries. But you can ban borohydrodes easily, because the only branch of industry, that uses it, is drug synthesis, and the companies making drugs are forced to obtain licenses. So, basically, if you want to be an advanced chemist and you think that status quo is okay, then you are forced to attain some colledge or make your business and obtain a license for precursors (because in most cases an individual person is either not eligible to have this license or nobody would sell suspicious chemicals to an individual).
I'm worried about bans on chemical equipment, but I don't think you can ban the equipment made from steel, because otherwise a lot of people will become potentially suspicious and the whole idea loses sense.
AFAIK, the restriction on equipment is implemented only in australia-NZ and some US states, probably because a lots of people actually have glassware, including schools, thus there's no sense in controling sales of this equipment, because no government have resources to do that. Even in australia/US i believe those are violated a lot, taking into account their formulation is vague.

Zephyr - 10-6-2015 at 16:00

Byko3y:

1. Are you saying I faked my yield?!?! Just because you didn't get the same result once doesn't mean everyone else is wrong.
2. Many people did succeed in the phosphorus thread, mostly using OTC materials.
3. You yourself discuss some pretty useless stuff...
4. Decent amounts of research has been done into all of the reagents you've listed, you just need to search deeper.
5. Are you saying scientific journals make you dumber????

I'm done... I can't read this any longer....

byko3y - 10-6-2015 at 16:10

Pinkhippo11, describe your first position fully, because I have no idea what you are talking about there.
2. I know a lot of people succeeded, but their devices are far from OTC and/or the yields are miserable. The amount of phosphorus that can be further used for more than one experiment starts somewhere at 20g - I doubt anyone in the phosphorus thread made that much.
4. Yes and no. Yes, the researches have probably been done, no, there's no people on the forum who can share the results of the research;
5. No.

Amos - 10-6-2015 at 16:51

@byko3y : Why are you on this forum? What do you do to contribute, and what gives you the platform to continually belittle members that do contribute?

byko3y - 10-6-2015 at 18:11

If I succeed in my upcoming phosphorus experiments, then I would have a huge platform to detract those contributions.
But that will happen not earlier than my recovery from bromine intoxication, which makes me so irritable.
What do I do to contribute to what? Did you mean phosphorus thread? Speaking about it, I found no convenient procedure in the thread, so I was forced to spend a lot, A LOT of time searching for other ways, while the discussion in the thread goes through the same methods over and over again. And I can barely remember all the things which are written there, because there's really a lot of text, and I'm not a phosphorus manufacture specialist.
I can disclose the way I'm gonna prepare the phosphorus - I'm gonna use something phosphine-like, but I have not made decision about details. I don't say it has to be gaseous phosphine, countrary, it should be dissolved in a solvent. I don't see much reason to talk about it, because most likely nobody would try to develop the method.

[Edited on 11-6-2015 by byko3y]

j_sum1 - 10-6-2015 at 18:29

I intend to do a foray into extracting P. I will use a variation of Rogeryermaw's method using sodium hexametaphosphate, SiO2, Al with a NaCl flux. The set-up is not that hard although my furnace design is going to be different from his. It all looks rather doable. he has posted in the P thread (scattered over several pages) He also shows his procedure in a video on his youtube channel.
If that helps at all byko3y.

Amos - 10-6-2015 at 18:56

Quote: Originally posted by byko3y  
If I succeed in my upcoming phosphorus experiments, then I would have a huge platform to detract those contributions.
But that will happen not earlier than my recovery from bromine intoxication, which makes me so irritable.
What do I do to contribute to what? Did you mean phosphorus thread? Speaking about it, I found no convenient procedure in the thread, so I was forced to spend a lot, A LOT of time searching for other ways, while the discussion in the thread goes through the same methods over and over again. And I can barely remember all the things which are written there, because there's really a lot of text, and I'm not a phosphorus manufacture specialist.
I can disclose the way I'm gonna prepare the phosphorus - I'm gonna use something phosphine-like, but I have not made decision about details. I don't say it has to be gaseous phosphine, countrary, it should be dissolved in a solvent. I don't see much reason to talk about it, because most likely nobody would try to develop the method.

[Edited on 11-6-2015 by byko3y]


So let me get this straight: You're complaining that people on the forum have had to use too-specialized procedures that take too much work (waaah) to make phosphorus with decent yields. And since they're not OTC enough for you, you're going to show everyone how OTC and simple you can be by generating and making use of phosphine gas. As opposed to simply heating a pretty simply welded apparatus using the correct heating element and power supply, keeping everything in a nearly closed system. I think it'd be great to try out your new method for producing phosphorus, and I have the highest hopes for you. But if you're complaining that existing methods aren't accessible, and that everyone's posting untested procedures(false) much like the one you're discussing now, then this is a new level of hypocrisy. Conduct your research, share anything interesting you find, and make the site a better place yourself.
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