Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Overrun with sal mirabilis!

ave369 - 29-8-2015 at 07:02

Here in my lab, I'm wading knee deep in sodium sulfate. I get this as a side product when I extract NaOH from a dry alkaline drain cleaner. Lots of sal mirabilis. Metric craptons of sal mirabilis. And I don't know what to do with it.

Okay, I can:

* Make alums;
* Dehydrate the salt by calcining and use it as a desiccant;
* Convert it to bisulfate and use that for making oleum;

Who knows what else one can do with sodium sulfate?

kecskesajt - 29-8-2015 at 07:50

Take it,if you cant take a dump.
Seriusly, there arent a lot of things this is useful.
Maybe you can convert it into NaOH by Ca(OH)2.

Amos - 29-8-2015 at 10:23

^Seriously I don't know why that guy even posts

But about the sodium sulfate, if you have an impressive enough heat source, you can try carbothermal reduction with charcoal to yield sodium sulfide, which can be quite useful. Apart from that, you can just dry it and use it as a desiccant.

Magpie - 29-8-2015 at 10:32

I use small amounts of Na2SO4 to dry organic liquids.

Making NaHSO4 sounds like a good idea. Use it for the following:

1) Use for oleum, as you say.

2) I use it for making gaseous HCl: NaHSO4 + NaCl + heat = a controlled source of HCl gas.

Corrosive Joeseph - 29-8-2015 at 10:35

If it's pure enough, just bag it and sell it or trade it for other chems..........................?

aga - 29-8-2015 at 13:04

Good thinking CJ.

Skip the 'pure enough' part and sell slightly bigger quantities for slightly less $ and corner the market.
Quote:
Seriously I don't know why that guy even posts

What's THAT about Amos ?

kecskesajt probably posts for the same reasons the rest of Us do, and has the extra difficulty of translating from English to Hungarian and back again.

[Edited on 29-8-2015 by aga]

phlogiston - 29-8-2015 at 13:19

You could use it to store quite large amounts of heat. For instance, to heat your house overnight with solar power collected during the day.

ave369 - 29-8-2015 at 13:31

Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston  
For instance, to heat your house overnight with solar power collected during the day.


Solar power? What's that? My house is heated with firewood.

Corrosive Joeseph - 29-8-2015 at 13:35

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
Good thinking CJ.

Skip the 'pure enough' part and sell slightly bigger quantities for slightly less $ and corner the market.

Quote:
Seriously I don't know why that guy even posts

What's THAT about Amos ?

kecskesajt probably posts for the same reasons the rest of Us do, and has the extra difficulty of translating from English to Hungarian and back again.

[Edited on 29-8-2015 by aga]


Na2SO4 used to be used as a laxative if anyone was confused by his original post

[Edited on 29-8-2015 by Corrosive Joeseph]

aga - 29-8-2015 at 13:42

Still is sold as a laxative.

Isn't called 'Miracle Salt' for nothing ;)

The marketing should be updated for modern terminology.

"Sodium Sulphate Tablets : the biggest and best Download you'll ever have."

Corrosive Joeseph - 29-8-2015 at 13:56

Ooooooohh, l just just learned something new while pissing myself laughing...................

Thanks for the 'enlightenment'!!

aga - 29-8-2015 at 14:02

(message deleted for being far too crude)

[Edited on 30-8-2015 by aga]

papaya - 29-8-2015 at 14:53

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know that salt can be used as a water softener, isn't it what is added to washing powders for the same reason? Also, how did you separate NaOH from there and what kind of drain cleaner is it that contains sulfate - what for?

ave369 - 29-8-2015 at 22:47

papaya, in my country there is a drain cleaner brand "KROT", the ingredients are NaOH and Na2SO4. The separation is very simple: it is physical. NaOH is in granules, Na2SO4 is in small crystals. Dry gauze cloth does the trick.

kecskesajt - 29-8-2015 at 23:06

O ja piergole,I'm not a native American, nor speak Native American.
Speaking Hungarian is easy.Speaking properly is not. Some adults have problem with it. Another lang. and everything is screwed up in your brain.

Take a look at it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_language#Grammar

eltöredezettségmentesítőtleníttethetetlenségtelenítőtlenkedhetnétek <--Thats one word(Tried myself to pronounce, failed)
megszentségteleníthetetlenségeskedéseitekért <--- Thats another word

unionised - 30-8-2015 at 03:46

Recrystallise it as the decahydrate and use to to check your thermometers.
http://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/jres/086/jresv86n2p181_A1b....

Corrosive Joeseph - 30-8-2015 at 05:01

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
(message deleted for being far too crude)

[Edited on 30-8-2015 by aga]


Ahahaha

You must have had a good night if you are retracting things the next morning!! LOL

It wasn't 'far too crude' by any means. Sci Mad would be just WAY too serious without aga. :)

EDIT: Forgot the smiley

[Edited on 30-8-2015 by Corrosive Joeseph]

pneumatician - 3-9-2015 at 06:01

do nothing, your next process maybe need this "Lots of sal mirabilis. Metric craptons of sal mirabilis.", so store in a right container and place and or not, sell it.

the most wise is before start something have an idea of bi-products undesirable and their management.

macckone - 3-9-2015 at 07:02

One method of recycling sodium sulfate is to electrolyze it to produce sodium hydroxide and sulfuric acid. This is important in the paper industry which generates it by the kiloton. It requires a membrane cell similar to a chlor-alkali cell but works best with a modified membrane. Three compartment cells are also used which produce a more pure product.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&...

papaya - 3-9-2015 at 13:51

You could try to use sulfate for salting out several organic solvents from their mixtures with water like alcohol/H2O , acetone/H2O (in case you make your own alcohol or such), however I don't know how effective it is.

AJKOER - 5-9-2015 at 07:33

Here is an equation (see https://books.google.com/books?id=GukWyQnHW6wC&pg=PA479&...) that suggests to me a possible path to bisulfate by taking heated Na2SO4 and treat with steam and chlorine:

Na2SO4 + Cl2 + H2O = NaHSO4 + HOCl + NaCl

The volatile Hypochlorous can be evaporated off (with some gaseous Cl2O) leaving an ionic (from the added NaCl) Sodium bisulfate fit to use as a toilet bowl cleaner (like the once known product called Vanish, please see this interesting list of ingredients at http://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brand... ) for sale or personal use.

In my opinion, the reaction is likely reversal as:

H+ + Cl- + HOCl ---) Cl2 + H2O

so reaction conditions/mechanics could impact yield.

An alternate preparation would be to place Na2SO4 in chlorine water in a sealed vessel in sunlight with periodic shaking. The photo decomposition of the hypochlorous acid forms HCl (along with oxygen gas and possibly some HClO3 as well) that could react with more Na2SO4 to produce the desired NaHSO4/NaCl on evaporation with a touch of chlorate.

[Edited on 5-9-2015 by AJKOER]

Little_Ghost_again - 5-9-2015 at 14:02

Just a thought

http://www.google.co.uk/patents/US3134729

ave369 - 5-9-2015 at 14:03

I'm just boiling it with conc sulfuric. It dissolves and turns into an easily melting salt that has to be bisulfate.

Little_Ghost_again - 5-9-2015 at 14:23

I just thought it might be useful to someone in the future, some seem to like the this kinda thing :D

[Edited on 5-9-2015 by Little_Ghost_again]

macckone - 5-9-2015 at 18:44

Excellent patent and doable if you have access to a lot of mercury.

Little_Ghost_again - 6-9-2015 at 02:00

Quote: Originally posted by macckone  
Excellent patent and doable if you have access to a lot of mercury.


Funny enough in the last 6 months I have seen loads of bottle (large) of old mercury turn up on ebay??? Not so much at the moment but for a while in the uk it was often listed and mainly in very old containers from 'the back of the garage', I looked today and there wasnt any though.
And yeah its taken a while to work out how to search through patents lol

[Edited on 6-9-2015 by Little_Ghost_again]

chloric1 - 15-10-2025 at 13:25

Sulfuric acid by treatment with a stoichiometric excess of hydrochloric acid via:

Na₂SO₄ + 2HCl >>>> 2NaCl(s) + H₂SO₄

Of coarse that is an oversimplified explanation and requires vacuum filtration through glass frit and an all glass distillation outfit to remove HCl from the mix.

Decontamination of barium waste to make nontoxic
As an electrolyte with copper anode and cathode to make cupric oxide electrolytically.

React with soluble or slightly soluble lead, calcium, strontium or barium salts into useful sodium salts:
Na₂SO₄ + PbI₂ >>> 2NaI +PbSO₄
Na₂SO₄ + Ba(ClO)₂ >>> 2NaClO₃ + BaSO₄
Na₂SO₄ + Ca(NO₃)₂ >>> 2NaNO3 + CaSO₄-2H₂O

Not to mention that you could cleanly make sodium hydroxide from barium hydroxide and sodium sulfate.


SnailsAttack - 12-11-2025 at 01:53

still can't get over the fact some 17th century german "discovered" sodium sulphate and managed to cement the name "miracle salt" just because he found out that if you eat enough of it you'll shit yourself
Quote:
He was the first to produce concentrated hydrochloric acid in 1625 by combining sulfuric acid and table salt. He also made an improved process for the manufacture of nitric acid in 1648 by heating potassium nitrate with concentrated sulfuric acid. His production of sodium sulfate, which he called sal mirabilis or "wonderful salt", brought him fame and the honor of being named "Glauber's salt". It was an effective and relatively safe laxative at a time when purging (emptying the digestive tract) was a popular treatment for many diseases.
what the heck were chemists doing before this guy?

davidfetter - 12-11-2025 at 11:34

Quote: Originally posted by SnailsAttack  
still can't get over the fact some 17th century german "discovered" sodium sulphate and managed to cement the name "miracle salt" just because he found out that if you eat enough of it you'll shit yourself

Quote:
He was the first to produce concentrated hydrochloric acid in 1625 by combining sulfuric acid and table salt. He also made an improved process for the manufacture of nitric acid in 1648 by heating potassium nitrate with concentrated sulfuric acid. His production of sodium sulfate, which he called sal mirabilis or "wonderful salt", brought him fame and the honor of being named "Glauber's salt". It was an effective and relatively safe laxative at a time when purging (emptying the digestive tract) was a popular treatment for many diseases.
what the heck were chemists doing before this guy?


To call what was going on before 1625 chemistry and the people doing it chemists is...not how I understand the history of the field. That's not to say people didn't accomplish amazing feats in realms we now frame as chemistry. It's just to say that that's not how they saw themselves or the things they were doing.

Varungh - 13-11-2025 at 22:22

Make persulfate. A old PSU and a lead annode will pull it off

pesco - 27-11-2025 at 10:19

Quote: Originally posted by ave369  
[
Solar power? What's that? My house is heated with firewood.



I know its old post, but might be idea for others. Especially when winter is coming in northern hemisphere.

Dont waste the ash:
- leach immediately = KOH
- leach later = K2CO3
- add urine = NH3 + KNO3
- leached + fat/oil = soap
- straight or leftovers from above = fertlizer

DraconicAcid - 27-11-2025 at 12:47

Send it to people for Secret Santa.