Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Quest for the elements

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blogfast25 - 28-10-2015 at 19:09

A selenate is by far the best option here. Se is easily reduced to Se(0).

Upsilon - 28-10-2015 at 19:21

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
A selenate is by far the best option here. Se is easily reduced to Se(0).


Indeed, though there is always the risk of hydrogen selenide, which is apparently even more toxic than phosgene (exposure limit is 50 ppb over an 8 hour period!) It seems quite similar to arsenous acid reduction but with more wiggle room before the undesirable gas is generated. As long as I use the same procedures used for the arsenous acid reduction then it should be safe.

gdflp - 28-10-2015 at 19:58

There's not really a risk of hydrogen selenide if the reduction is done properly. I've done this experiment before for a selenium sample for my element collection. It was a ~5g scale; the source of selenium was an old bottle of selenium dioxide that a lab was throwing out and was improperly stored so the compound had absorbed enough water from the air that it completely dissolved in it and thus I couldn't get perfect stoichiometry. To this I added an excess of a solution of sodium bisulfite, with strong stirring. It's quite an interesting reaction, no reaction is immediately evident, but after several minutes the solution starts to redden in color and after stirring for several hours the reaction is complete.

This yields the red allotrope of selenium which is initially quite a brilliant red color, similar to that of cadmium selenide. Over time however, the sample slowly begins to darken. I prepared my sample about 6 months ago and ampouled it immediately after and the sample is currently a reddish brown color instead of the initial brilliant red; it currently looks quite similar to red phosphorus actually.

woelen - 28-10-2015 at 23:55

If sodium selenate can be purchased for $25 and your only goal is making selenium, then I would suggest simply buying selenium. Selenium is not that expensive and you can buy nice samples on eBay for just a few bucks.

If your goal is to make every element yourself, then of course selenate (or selenite) is one possible way to go. But I would say, keep the selenate. That compound is rare and not easy to obtain, while elemental selenium is quite common. I would not use a rare chemical for just making a common chemical.

The risk of producing H2Se from selenates or selenites is nearly zero. I have done the reduction myself quite a few times and I even electrolysed solutions, containing selenites, but never obtained any H2Se.


Upsilon - 29-10-2015 at 06:07

Quote: Originally posted by woelen  

The risk of producing H2Se from selenates or selenites is nearly zero. I have done the reduction myself quite a few times and I even electrolysed solutions, containing selenites, but never obtained any H2Se.



Is this just due to elemental selenium being a sluggish reactant, much like its cousin sulfur? H2Se production seems feasible based on SRPs but I imagine it is probably similar to why sulfur won't react easily with even strong reductants unless molten.

blogfast25 - 29-10-2015 at 06:54

Quote: Originally posted by Upsilon  
Quote: Originally posted by woelen  

The risk of producing H2Se from selenates or selenites is nearly zero. I have done the reduction myself quite a few times and I even electrolysed solutions, containing selenites, but never obtained any H2Se.



Is this just due to elemental selenium being a sluggish reactant, much like its cousin sulfur? H2Se production seems feasible based on SRPs but I imagine it is probably similar to why sulfur won't react easily with even strong reductants unless molten.


woelen is right.

To obtain H2Se in significant quantities you probably need to start off from selenides (plus acid).

Upsilon - 29-10-2015 at 16:35

Would it be safe to use oxalic acid as a reductant, then? Since sulfur takes much coaxing to be reduced by oxalic acid, I would assume selenium is very similar?

blogfast25 - 29-10-2015 at 16:45

Quote: Originally posted by Upsilon  
Would it be safe to use oxalic acid as a reductant, then? Since sulfur takes much coaxing to be reduced by oxalic acid, I would assume selenium is very similar?


My broad guess would be 'No'. Oxalic acid isn't much of a reducer, more something that can be oxidised by powerful oxidisers. But I could be wrong on that. Testing is everything... very easy to test in a test tube.

Reduction of selenites (Se(+4)) with SO<sub>2</sub> works. Probably acidified sulphites would too.

[Edited on 30-10-2015 by blogfast25]

Upsilon - 29-10-2015 at 17:38

SRPs say the reaction is favorable, but then again it says reduction of sulfate by oxalic acid is also favorable. Still, reduction of sulfate is only 0.66V while reduction of selenate is 1.64V. Maybe this is favorable enough that the reaction could yet proceed (by comparison, reduction of MnO2 by OA is only 0.07V greater, which we know for sure works). Definitely something to be testing.

gdflp - 29-10-2015 at 17:56

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Quote: Originally posted by Upsilon  
Would it be safe to use oxalic acid as a reductant, then? Since sulfur takes much coaxing to be reduced by oxalic acid, I would assume selenium is very similar?

Reduction of selenites (Se(+3)) with SO<sub>2</sub> works. Probably acidified sulphites would too.

See a couple posts above. I reduced selenium dioxide(selenous acid) with sodium bisulfite, the free acid provides all the acidity needed. If using sodium selenite, acidifying the solution is likely necessary.

blogfast25 - 29-10-2015 at 18:02

Quote: Originally posted by Upsilon  
SRPs say the reaction is favorable, but then again it says reduction of sulfate by oxalic acid is also favorable.


SRPs say lots of things: thermodynamics is not kinetics.

woelen - 29-10-2015 at 23:59

@blogfast25: Selenite has selenium in oxidation state +4, not +3.

@Upsilon: Oxalic acid probably will do the job of reducing selenites, but only slowly. I also noticed that reduction of selenite is much faster/easier in the presence of chloride ion. I tried reducing a solution of Na2SeO3 in 10% H2SO4 with SO2 and this is rather slow. When a little HCl or NaCl is added, then the reaction becomes much faster, you see the liquid turn orange and then turbid and brick-red in just a few tens of seconds. So, maybe a combination of dilute HCl and oxalic acid?

Also, keep in mind that selenate is not the same as selenite. I am not sure how easily selenate is reduced. The highest oxidation state of many non-metal elements is much less reactive than lower oxidation states. This is most natable with sulphur, phosphorus and chlorine, but it may also be so with selenium. E.g. sulfite can easily be reduced to sulphur or sulfide in acidic solution, while sulfate is very hard to reduce under similar conditions, although it has sulphur in higher oxidation state.

Upsilon - 30-10-2015 at 05:02

Quote: Originally posted by woelen  

Also, keep in mind that selenate is not the same as selenite. I am not sure how easily selenate is reduced. The highest oxidation state of many non-metal elements is much less reactive than lower oxidation states. This is most natable with sulphur, phosphorus and chlorine, but it may also be so with selenium. E.g. sulfite can easily be reduced to sulphur or sulfide in acidic solution, while sulfate is very hard to reduce under similar conditions, although it has sulphur in higher oxidation state.


Well, that is reflected by SRPs. Reduction of sulfate to sulfurous acid has a potential of a meager 0.17V, while sulfurous acid to thiosulfate or elemental S have potentials of 0.4V and 0.45V respectively - so it makes sense that sulfates are harder to reduce than sulfites. Selenates and selenites, on the other hand, exhibit a reverse relationship - reduction of selenate to selenous acid has a potential of 1.15V while selenous acid to selenium has a potential of 0.74V. So based on this selenate is much easier to reduce than selenite.

blogfast25 - 30-10-2015 at 07:58

Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
@blogfast25: Selenite has selenium in oxidation state +4, not +3.




Oooopsie. Yes. (Blushes badly). :mad:

Upsilon - 31-10-2015 at 08:41

I am going to try ampouling some chlorine gas at some point not to far off. I have a good idea of what I need to do, but I want to know what the most effective method for neutralizing excess chlorine is. I am thinking of using a sodium hydroxide solution; does anyone have a better idea?

Upsilon - 2-11-2015 at 18:51

Well if nobody has a better idea then I'll just use the NaOH to deal with the excess chlorine gas.

On that note, I received my potassium bromide today; I will be attempting isolation of bromine from it at some point. I was originally planning on using chlorine gas to oxidize the bromide in the potassium bromide solution, but I'm wondering if I can get a cleaner product using chloric acid as an oxidant instead. It would be nice to not need to deal with a chlorine gas generator, and would also prevent BrCl contamination.

j_sum1 - 2-11-2015 at 19:01

Chlorine:
I bubble through a bucket of NaOH. It seems to work ok.

Bromine:
My last synth was using MnO2. It took a while to clean the RBF and yield was low. I have used other oxidants as well. H2O2 as usual is the cleanest.
My next attempt will be using Cl2. NileRed I think has a YT vid where he makes Cl2 in situ. This has the advantage of high yield and no significant Cl2 wastage. The other method is to bubble Cl2 through the bromide solution. That is likely the method that I will use.
I can't point to links ATM but from reading here and a few videos, I don't believe BrCl contamination is a significant issue. 2BrCl --> Br2 + Cl2 is favoured. woelen will be along some time soon to correct me.

blogfast25 - 2-11-2015 at 19:13

Quote: Originally posted by Upsilon  
Well if nobody has a better idea then I'll just use the NaOH to deal with the excess chlorine gas.

On that note, I received my potassium bromide today; I will be attempting isolation of bromine from it at some point. I was originally planning on using chlorine gas to oxidize the bromide in the potassium bromide solution, but I'm wondering if I can get a cleaner product using chloric acid as an oxidant instead. It would be nice to not need to deal with a chlorine gas generator, and would also prevent BrCl contamination.


NaOH as a chlorine scavenger is fine.

But the displacement of bromide with chlorine leads inevitably to small amounts of BrCl, which is hard to distinguish from Br<sub>2</sub>.

There are plenty threads on 'clean' Br<sub>2</sub> generation on this site.

j_sum1 - 2-11-2015 at 19:17

Ok, blogfast corrected me. How small is small? Does a redistillation fix the issue?

For an element collection, I probably don't care too much anyway. Although I will probably take steps to remove water.

elementcollector1 - 2-11-2015 at 19:20

Quote:
How small is small?

Think about 20 mL... from 100g of starting NaBr. After drying. That's what I got with woelen's method, anyway, and by the time I got it all ampouled (under sulfuric acid, to keep things dry), it had dwindled to just over 2 mL. It's a very perfidious element.

j_sum1 - 2-11-2015 at 19:22

On a related note, does anyone have experience in ampouling liquid chlorine? It would seem to me that dry ice and acetone would get to the right temperature range. It would also seem that torching glass in the presence of a flammable liquid is fraught with potential hazards. Also, the thermal stresses on the ampoule might be significant.

It is the sort of task that one would want to get right first time. I don't fancy the combination of flame, flammable liquid, molten glass, broken glass and free and rapidly-dispersing chlorine.

j_sum1 - 2-11-2015 at 19:25

Quote:
about 20 mL... from 100g of starting NaBr

Are you sure?
That would seem to me to be a contamination of nearly 50% (not knowing off the top of my head the density of a BrCl / Br2 mixture).

blogfast25 - 2-11-2015 at 19:28

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
Ok, blogfast corrected me. How small is small? Does a redistillation fix the issue?

For an element collection, I probably don't care too much anyway. Although I will probably take steps to remove water.


Hard to tell. A tall distillation column would separate it but how tall is a tall distillation column? ;)

Upsilon - 2-11-2015 at 20:01

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
H2O2 as usual is the cleanest.


Wouldn't using H2O2 not be any better than Cl2 gas, since the O2 evolved could form bromine oxides? Even more so than chlorine would form BrCl since O2 is a stronger oxidant than Cl2?

And looks like the chloric acid method wouldn't be very good after all since reduction of chloric acid would likely produce chlorine gas and form BrCl anyway.

j_sum1 - 2-11-2015 at 20:27

H2O2 is the cleanest physically of all the methods I have attempted thus far. Cleanup is swish and rinse. I don't know about Br2O. Most bromine I have produced has been for demonstration purposes. "Look! Oxidation happened!"

gdflp - 2-11-2015 at 20:41

No bromine oxides are unstable at STP and they are not easily prepared. They cannot simply be prepared by the direct union of the two diatomic elements, rather they can be prepared by the reaction of ozone with bromine at -50C, or by passing an arc through bromine and diatomic oxygen at low temperatures and pressures. And on what basis is oxygen a stronger oxidant than chlorine?

Upsilon - 2-11-2015 at 20:58

Quote: Originally posted by gdflp  
No bromine oxides are unstable at STP and they are not easily prepared. They cannot simply be prepared by the direct union of the two diatomic elements, rather they can be prepared by the reaction of ozone with bromine at -50C, or by passing an arc through bromine and diatomic oxygen at low temperatures and pressures. And on what basis is oxygen a stronger oxidant than chlorine?


Ok, looks like I'll take the H2O2 route then.

Also I may be relating information incorrectly but I was going based on electronegativity and the fact that oxygen oxidizes chlorine and never the other way around. Similar to how fluorine is a stronger oxidizer than oxygen, and thus oxidizes oxygen.

Chlorine's higher electron affinity may make it a better oxidant in general though, I just don't really know.

[Edited on 3-11-2015 by Upsilon]

Upsilon - 4-11-2015 at 21:50

Hold on - couldn't I just use concentrated sulfuric acid on the KBr? HBr is formed to be immediately oxidized by more sulfuric acid into bromine with sulfur dioxide as a byproduct.

j_sum1 - 4-11-2015 at 22:04

You could. But IME, yield is low without an oxidant. Even with oxidising iodide you don't get a clean product.

Upsilon - 5-11-2015 at 04:31

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
You could. But IME, yield is low without an oxidant. Even with oxidising iodide you don't get a clean product.


Maybe using nitric acid instead? Oxidation by H2O2 requires a proton source meaning using HBr as an intermediate. It would be nice to have it generated and oxidized in situ.

MrHomeScientist - 5-11-2015 at 06:49

Despite the multitude of bromine preparation threads here, this topic keeps resurfacing. I might as well copy and paste a previous post I made:

Quote:
Anyways every time this is brought up again, I feel compelled to share the electrolysis method since very few people seem to know about it. I found the procedure on woelen's site, and made a 2-part video of it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKjyM2AkZSY
It's very simple - uses only OTC pool chemicals (except potassium dichromate), and an electrolysis setup with graphite electrodes. The oxidizer, sodium bromate, is created in-situ by the electrolysis. It also greatly cuts down on vapors. The downside is that it takes quite a while to electrolyze - 26 hours in my case. Lots of fun though.

...

Here's woelen's webpage on the method that I based my video off of: http://woelen.homescience.net/science/chem/exps/OTC_bromine/...
I followed his procedure pretty much exactly, and got a very similar yield.


Fascinating element. I love seeing preparations of it. A minimum of site searching will save you a lot of trouble!

[Edited on 11-5-2015 by MrHomeScientist]

Upsilon - 10-11-2015 at 19:11

Today I started up the manganese acetate experiment again, this time with GAA. It is bubbling much more rapidly this time around, no surprise there. I'll let it run overnight and come back with results tomorrow.

Agari - 10-11-2015 at 19:39

Since the OP of this thread is collecting elements, and so am I, is there any way to obtain fluorine from a fluoride compound?
Edit:Bromine can be obtained by reacting HCl with TCCA and passing the resulting chlorine gas into a saturated solution of water and a bromine salt (Available at pool stores),then attaching the reaction flask to a condenser for a simple distillation,cooling it using ice water. The receiving flask should be placed in an ice bath to prevent bromine vapor release. Once water starts coming over, the distillation is over. Remove the receiving flask,place the contents in a separatory funnel, and add 98% sulfuric acid to remove water. Cap,shake,and vent the sep funnel. After shaking,allow the funnel to remain undisturbed to form 2 layers,the top being the layer of sulfuric acid and water,the bottom being mostly bromine,drain the bottom layer into a suitable container, and now you have bromine!
The overall reaction is as follows when using TCCA tablets for chlorine generation.
C3N3O3Cl3 + 3HCl -> 3Cl2 + C3N3O3H3
Cl2 + 2NaBr= Br2 + 2NaCl

[Edited on 11-11-2015 by Agari]

Upsilon - 10-11-2015 at 19:47

Quote: Originally posted by Agari  
Since the OP of this thread is collecting elements, and so am I, is there any way to obtain fluorine from a fluoride compound?


No known chemical is capable of oxidizing fluoride to fluorine, so it must be done explicitly via electrolysis. Setting up the electrolysis is a whole challenge in itself since it must be done with a molten fluoride (using an aqueous solution, the fluorine generated will react with water to form HF which will contaminate your sample). Best compound you can use for this is potassium bifluoride, melting at only 238C.

[Edited on 11-11-2015 by Upsilon]

j_sum1 - 10-11-2015 at 19:54

Short answer.
Nope.

There is one chemical method that involves antimony-fluoro-something-hazardous-and-unavailable.
For fluorine in an element collection, your options are pretty limited.
You can use a stand-in compound such as CaCl2 or teflon.
You can use a real fluorine sample in a nickel container. You won't be able to see it, but it will be there.
You can spend gazillions and get a small amount of visible gas in a specially treated single crystal quartz ampoule. It has been done but I doubt you would ever find one available.
You could buy an element sample of fluorine diluted with helium in a glass ampoule. You won't be able to see it and you won't actually have any unreacted after a few months but it will relieve you of some dollars.
You could get a hold of some antozonite which is a pretty rare form of radioactive fluorite containing minute quantities of elemental fluorine trapped in the crystal imperfections. It is enough to make it smell when a piece is broken off.

Or, if you can find a method for producing it (electrolysis of a fluoride salt I guess), then you might be able to devise a way of storing it in a teflon ampoule. Teflon is tricky though. Good luck.

Upsilon - 10-11-2015 at 20:11

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
then you might be able to devise a way of storing it in a teflon ampoule. Teflon is tricky though. Good luck.


I actually thought about different ways of storing it visibly. Something could be done with PFA, abusing its higher transparency compared to other fluoropolymers, as well as its ability to be melt-formed. Melting some down and spraying it inside of a regular glass ampoule to have a thin layer of (transparent) PFA protection may work to hold the gas. If you do end up attempting storage of fluorine, no matter what vessel you use, keep it under a barium hydroxide solution. If any fluorine gas escapes, it will be instantly neutralized and will leave insoluble BaF2 behind that will act as an indicator. If you see insoluble material at the bottom of the solution, you know you've got a leak.

[Edited on 11-11-2015 by Upsilon]

Agari - 10-11-2015 at 20:28

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
Short answer.
Nope.

There is one chemical method that involves antimony-fluoro-something-hazardous-and-unavailable.
For fluorine in an element collection, your options are pretty limited.
You can use a stand-in compound such as CaCl2 or teflon.
You can use a real fluorine sample in a nickel container. You won't be able to see it, but it will be there.
You can spend gazillions and get a small amount of visible gas in a specially treated single crystal quartz ampoule. It has been done but I doubt you would ever find one available.
You could buy an element sample of fluorine diluted with helium in a glass ampoule. You won't be able to see it and you won't actually have any unreacted after a few months but it will relieve you of some dollars.
You could get a hold of some antozonite which is a pretty rare form of radioactive fluorite containing minute quantities of elemental fluorine trapped in the crystal imperfections. It is enough to make it smell when a piece is broken off.

Or, if you can find a method for producing it (electrolysis of a fluoride salt I guess), then you might be able to devise a way of storing it in a teflon ampoule. Teflon is tricky though. Good luck.

I think that by "Antimony-fluoro-something" you mean "Fluoroantimonic Acid",it is a superacid, meaning it is more powerful than 100% sulfuric acid.
Source:Wikipedia.

[Edited on 11-11-2015 by Agari]

[Edited on 11-11-2015 by Agari]

MolecularWorld - 10-11-2015 at 20:47

It's antimony pentafluoride.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorine#Chemical
Quote:
While preparing for a 1986 conference to celebrate the centennial of Moissan's achievement, Karl O. Christe reasoned that chemical fluorine generation should be feasible since some metal fluoride anions have no stable neutral counterparts; their acidification potentially triggers oxidation instead. He devised a method which evolves fluorine at high yield and atmospheric pressure:

2 KMnO4 + 2 KF + 10 HF + 3 H2O2 → 2 K2MnF6 + 8 H2O + 3 O2
2 K2MnF6 + 4 SbF5 → 4 KSbF6 + 2 MnF3 + F2

Christe later commented that the reactants "had been known for more than 100 years and even Moissan could have come up with this scheme." As late as 2008, some references still asserted that fluorine was too reactive for any chemical isolation.



j_sum1 - 10-11-2015 at 21:03

That's the one. Actually, it is the 10HF that is scary there.
Not a synthesis for this little duck.

Upsilon - 10-11-2015 at 21:12

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
That's the one. Actually, it is the 10HF that is scary there.
Not a synthesis for this little duck.


There's honestly no point in doing this anyway, electrolysis is by far the easier option to F2 gas.

Agari - 10-11-2015 at 21:18

Quote: Originally posted by Upsilon  
Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
That's the one. Actually, it is the 10HF that is scary there.
Not a synthesis for this little duck.


There's honestly no point in doing this anyway, electrolysis is by far the easier option to F2 gas.

We are getting a bit off-topic here. Anyways,I might not even get to obtaining fluorine gas and instead aim for another element in the meantime.

MolecularWorld - 10-11-2015 at 21:31

Quote: Originally posted by Upsilon  

There's honestly no point in doing this anyway, electrolysis is by far the easier option to F2 gas.

Easier still to buy it. But easy rarely factors into why and how amateur chemists do things.
Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
That's the one. Actually, it is the 10HF that is scary there.
Not a synthesis for this little duck.

The first reaction isn't that scary, it proceeds in solution, right? So you could use extremely dilute hydrofluoric acid.
But according to the relevant Wikipedia page, preparation of antimony pentafluoride requires either anhydrous hydrogen fluoride or fluorine gas, and high temperatures.
Much scarier.

Though I agree that electrolysis is more practical, if one really must generate fluorine in quantity.
Personally, I'm satisfied with a nice fluorite to represent fluorine in my element collection.
Quote: Originally posted by Agari  
Anyways, I might not even get to obtaining fluorine gas and instead aim for another element in the meantime.

That is most wise.
Quote: Originally posted by Agari  
We are getting a bit off-topic here.

Sorry, I thought the question was:
Quote: Originally posted by Agari  
...is there any way to obtain fluorine from a fluoride compound?

Agari - 10-11-2015 at 21:43

I think we have settled the matter of obtaining Fluorine gas, MolecularWorld, and should move on to whatever the OP is posting or other elements.

MolecularWorld - 10-11-2015 at 22:43

@Agari:
And you're entitled to think that.
Just as I'm entitled to post my thoughts and ideas when I think they'll add something to the discussion.
I suppose I'm a bit of a gadfly. It speaks to my subconscious that I registered on mischief night (something I just realized).

I can't see any posts in this thread on elements other than fluorine since you asked about it, so I can't quite understand how we
"should move on to whatever the OP is posting or other elements".
Whatever is the OP posting?
What other elements did you have in mind?
I will require this information in order to generate posts that meet your exacting standards.

[Edited on 11-11-2015 by MolecularWorld]

woelen - 11-11-2015 at 02:02

Both of Christe's reactions for making F2 without electrolysis require strictly anhydrous conditions. The first reaction hence requires anhydrous HF, anhydrous H2O2 and a very strong drying agent to absorb the water, formed in the reaction.
The second reaction in turn also must be in strictly anhydrous conditions. Any water present will hydrolyse the SbF5 and will destroy the formed F2.

It is not without reason why it took so long (until 1986) before this reaction was carried out. Handling a combination of anhydrous HF, absolutely dry/pure H2O2 and SbF5 only can be done in a very well equipped lab and I am quite sure that nearly every lab in the world is not capable of handling these things safely.

I am not sure about buying F2-samples. In the past it seems that there have been fake samples with dried Cl2 and NO2 and dried air to make the color less intense which were mixed into an ordinary glass ampoule to get something which is supposed to look like F2. I am not sure about this, but I can certainly imagine this, because F2-samples are sold for prices of EUR 100 or so, while the gasses and ampoules needed for making the fakes only cost a fraction of that. I once read on Theodore's website how a real F2 sample can be made, using special quartz ampoules which are dried meticulously. The entire process, described on his site, must cost hundreds of euros/dollars for a single ampoule!

Conclusion: Samples of elemental F2, visible as colored gas, are beyond reach of home chemists, unless you are able/willing to spend several hundreds of dollars on a sample.

Upsilon - 11-11-2015 at 12:40

I think I'm going to go for a copper sample today. I was considering a CuO thermite, but seeing videos of this reaction it apparently occurs explosively so I may not do that. I might go for a CuSO4 electrolysis, depositing the copper on a small copper wire.

j_sum1 - 11-11-2015 at 14:26

CuO thermite is fun. You should do it. But yes, it is a bit vigorous. The copper disappears in a fine brown cloud of smoke.

You might make it workable by mixing in something to absorb the excess energy -- perhaps some CaF2 or CaO.
You might also try something a bit less energetic than Al. I am going to try one with zinc powder some time soon.

Electrolysis is easy. Make some sulfuric acid while you are at it. Lead anode, copper wire cathode, saturated solution of CuSO4 low current density, 24 hours.

Upsilon - 11-11-2015 at 14:54

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
CuO thermite is fun. You should do it. But yes, it is a bit vigorous. The copper disappears in a fine brown cloud of smoke.

You might make it workable by mixing in something to absorb the excess energy -- perhaps some CaF2 or CaO.
You might also try something a bit less energetic than Al. I am going to try one with zinc powder some time soon.

Electrolysis is easy. Make some sulfuric acid while you are at it. Lead anode, copper wire cathode, saturated solution of CuSO4 low current density, 24 hours.


Yeah it does look cool, too bad I live in a suburban area and won't really be able to set off anything explosive without having the cops called. I even get nervous when setting off thermites because of the smoke they cause.

I guess now would be a good time for me to learn about electrolytic deposition behavior. What are the criteria for having the metal deposit from solution to form a solid mass as opposed to a powder that falls to the bottom? Does the electrode have to be made of the metal you're trying to deposit? Or can it be any metal? I'm pretty sure graphite electrodes won't allow you to deposit any metals on it.

Agari - 11-11-2015 at 14:58

Quote: Originally posted by Upsilon  
Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
CuO thermite is fun. You should do it. But yes, it is a bit vigorous. The copper disappears in a fine brown cloud of smoke.

You might make it workable by mixing in something to absorb the excess energy -- perhaps some CaF2 or CaO.
You might also try something a bit less energetic than Al. I am going to try one with zinc powder some time soon.

Electrolysis is easy. Make some sulfuric acid while you are at it. Lead anode, copper wire cathode, saturated solution of CuSO4 low current density, 24 hours.


Yeah it does look cool, too bad I live in a suburban area and won't really be able to set off anything explosive without having the cops called. I even get nervous when setting off thermites because of the smoke they cause.


I never tried a copper thermite reaction,only the one with iron oxide as an oxidizer and aluminum as fuel,that's how I got iron. What is the more energetic version of the copper thermite reaction,what are the components?

[Edited on 11-11-2015 by Agari]

j_sum1 - 11-11-2015 at 15:07

Good question. I know little. Except that there are a large number of variables to play with -- substrate, concentration, current density, temperature, agitation, surfactants, impurities and the presence of other ions.

My copper electrode is built up on a copper wire and is quite a dense solid mass. It looks ugly since I did a bit of electrolysis with carbon anodes and so it has fine carbon dispersed throughout. I get a small amount of Cu powder deposit but that is really minor. I don't get long dendrites but I guess the copper is probably dendritic on a smaller scale.

If I was aiming for a particular form, I would read the literature and follow a recipe.
My intention at some stage is to electrorefine my ugly electrode and produce a cleaner and more pleasant-looking copper sample for the element collection. So... if you come across a method that results in beautifully-formed crystals, I am interested.


As for the CuO thermite -- it's all over in a few seconds. It would easily be mistaken as a dust cloud -- perhaps sawdust unless you were up close. In a windy day, there would be perhaps a 20 second opportunity to notice something suspicious. For a small thermite you should get away with it fairly easily.

Agari - 11-11-2015 at 15:24

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
Good question. I know little. Except that there are a large number of variables to play with -- substrate, concentration, current density, temperature, agitation, surfactants, impurities and the presence of other ions.

My copper electrode is built up on a copper wire and is quite a dense solid mass. It looks ugly since I did a bit of electrolysis with carbon anodes and so it has fine carbon dispersed throughout. I get a small amount of Cu powder deposit but that is really minor. I don't get long dendrites but I guess the copper is probably dendritic on a smaller scale.

If I was aiming for a particular form, I would read the literature and follow a recipe.
My intention at some stage is to electrorefine my ugly electrode and produce a cleaner and more pleasant-looking copper sample for the element collection. So... if you come across a method that results in beautifully-formed crystals, I am interested.


As for the CuO thermite -- it's all over in a few seconds. It would easily be mistaken as a dust cloud -- perhaps sawdust unless you were up close. In a windy day, there would be perhaps a 20 second opportunity to notice something suspicious. For a small thermite you should get away with it fairly easily.

And then all that will be left to do is to collect the scattered copper,great! That is,if it is done inside or anywhere where it would be easy to collect the copper, or does it simply melt through any ceramic container and pour out in a manner similar to the iron thermite reaction, along with producing a large cloud of copper?

[Edited on 11-11-2015 by Agari]

Upsilon - 11-11-2015 at 15:34

Quote: Originally posted by Agari  

And then all that will be left to do is to collect the scattered copper,great! That is,if it is done inside or anywhere where it would be easy to collect the copper, or does it simply melt through any ceramic container and pour out in a manner similar to the iron thermite reaction, along with producing a large cloud of copper?
[Edited on 11-11-2015 by Agari]


I don't think I would try this; the reaction already occurs explosively in the open. Confining it to try and collect the copper sounds like a really bad idea. Look up some videos to see what I'm talking about.

If you're after copper there are much better ways to get it. You can make solid copper by electrolysis on a copper wire, or you can get the powder by electrolysis on a graphite electrode. You can also put a piece of aluminum foil in a solution of a copper salt.

j_sum1 - 11-11-2015 at 15:39

All the CuO thermites I have done have produced a nice-looking brown cloud for a few seconds. There was no copper retrievable.
But if you include a slag material, a lot of the energy goes into heating up and melting the slag rather than boiling off your product. A good choice will allow the slag to float on top of the metal and protect it from the atmosphere.

I have little experience with these kinds of additions. I do know that some playing with the thermodynamics calculations is of great benefit. It seems to me that a decent thermite spreadsheet should be added to the list of things to do.

Beyond that, ask Blogfast. He is our resident thermite expert and has devised more than a couple of novel methods. He would be able to tell you off the top of his head what procedure is likely to work for copper.

Agari - 11-11-2015 at 20:55

J_sum1,do you happen to have Cadmium or Phosphorus in your collection? If so,how did you obtain them?
Is there any good supplier that will sell white or red phosphorus? The reason I want white phosphorus is because it is more...rare than red phosphorus,looks better in my opinion,and is also more flammable of the two,so it could be considered unusual.

j_sum1 - 11-11-2015 at 21:02

I have Cd. I bought that from www.onyxmet.com. It was pretty cheap. i also have a NiCad battery that I intend to disassemble at some stage.

Onyxmet also sells red P. Sometimes. You should ask. And also ask about packaging and importing. Clearly there are issues there.

I intend to scrape some matchboxes for red P and then convert some to white. Obviously this will be small scale. I also have eventual plans to synthesise some white P using one of the successful methods outlined in the elemental phosphorus thread (see sticky.)

There are other allotropes of P but I will probably resort to buying those.

Agari - 11-11-2015 at 21:06

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
I have Cd. I bought that from www.onyxmet.com. It was pretty cheap. i also have a NiCad battery that I intend to disassemble at some stage.

Onyxmet also sells red P. Sometimes. You should ask. And also ask about packaging and importing. Clearly there are issues there.

I intend to scrape some matchboxes for red P and then convert some to white. Obviously this will be small scale. I also have eventual plans to synthesise some white P using one of the successful methods outlined in the elemental phosphorus thread (see sticky.)

There are other allotropes of P but I will probably resort to buying those.

There is a method of synthesizing violet P, but it seems far-fetched:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allotropes_of_phosphorus#Hitto...
I just had to post that.

Upsilon - 11-11-2015 at 21:07

There's a whole big thread on preparing phosphorus stickied in the General Chemistry forum. It's quite a task though, so it's understandable if you'd rather just buy it. Samples aren't hard to find, they're even on eBay.

Cadmium is actually on my to-do list for the near future. I ordered 150g of cadmium sulfide-hydroxide to experiment on. Once you make a water-soluble cadmium salt out of it, you can make the metal with electrolysis just like copper. For a cadmium thermite I have no idea, and I'm not too keen on trying it until I have some idea of what to expect.

j_sum1 - 11-11-2015 at 21:13

Yeah... I would avoid a cadmium thermite for the same reason I would avoid a lead thermite. Aerosol toxic metals are I think something to steer clear of.

On phosphorus, Rogeryermaw has a method in that thread that I think is worth emulating. He also has some youtube clips. But you should do your research, check safety issues, have an escape plan and act really carefully. Phos is rather unforgiving. It goes bang. It can gas you. It sticks to flesh, eats it and poisons you.

Agari - 11-11-2015 at 23:32

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  

On phosphorus, Rogeryermaw has a method in that thread that I think is worth emulating. He also has some youtube clips. But you should do your research, check safety issues, have an escape plan and act really carefully. Phos is rather unforgiving. It goes bang. It can gas you. It sticks to flesh, eats it and poisons you.


I just read his post (Self note: Page 21), and it's a good process in theory,I should try it some time after my planned thermite experiment. As for the possible(?) synthesis of violet P, I don't know whether or not it is a feasible and practical to attempt,are there any flaws that you see in the procedure I mentioned earlier involving heating red phosphorus? The link to the Wikipedia article on the matter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allotropes_of_phosphorus#Hitto...
It simply sounds too easy to possibly be true,maybe it's the temperature specified? Does the real procedure require something else to be done?
I am off for today though,it is late here and I still need phosphorus to work with.

[Edited on 12-11-2015 by Agari]

Agari - 14-11-2015 at 22:40

Argh,I can't edit my posts for some reason.
What element is the OP of the thread currently after? I would like to perhaps obtain it too.

Agari - 14-11-2015 at 22:41

I finally got red phosphorus,I will convert it to white tommorow.
I still can't edit my posts.

Agari - 14-11-2015 at 22:43

I decided to do copper from thermite after I finish my entry for J_sum's contest.

Upsilon - 15-11-2015 at 11:35

I'm currently working on manganese, to answer your above question.

I still don't know how you plan on getting anything but crude copper powder with the thermite.

MolecularWorld - 15-11-2015 at 12:27

Quote: Originally posted by Upsilon  
I'm currently working on manganese, to answer your above question.

How do you plan to produce manganese? In my experience, manganese dioxide thermite is even more energetic than cupric oxide thermite, and attempts to electroplate manganese from aqueous solution more often yield oxides.
Quote: Originally posted by Upsilon  
I still don't know how you plan on getting anything but crude copper powder with the thermite.

In the relevant thread, I demonstrated a slower-burning copper thermite using sulfates. This produced a slag of sulfates, sulfides, silicates (from the bentonite the thermite was ignited upon), and bits of copper metal. Digestion of the slag in concentrated sodium hydroxide solution is (gradually) revealing particles of copper metal over 1/4" across. With some refinement, it may be possible to produce sizable copper globules from a thermite-type reaction.

[Edited on 15-11-2015 by MolecularWorld]

Upsilon - 15-11-2015 at 13:43

Quote: Originally posted by MolecularWorld  

How do you plan to produce manganese? In my experience, manganese dioxide thermite is even more energetic than cupric oxide thermite, and attempts to electroplate manganese from aqueous solution more often yield oxides.


Earlier in this thread somewhere I posted my idea. I plan on electrolyzing molten semi-hydrated manganese(II) acetate. Completely anhydrous is too difficult to get but I can get it down to a low enough water content so that it won't attack the manganese metal too badly.

Upsilon - 15-11-2015 at 17:30

Does anyone know anything about extracting yttrium from yttrium oxide (Y2O3)? I just received 30g of it today. Yttrium seems to be very high in the activity series (quite a bit above aluminum) so I don't know if a thermite would work. Perhaps it should be done

Agari - 15-11-2015 at 19:23

Quote: Originally posted by Upsilon  
Does anyone know anything about extracting yttrium from yttrium oxide (Y2O3)? I just received 30g of it today. Yttrium seems to be very high in the activity series (quite a bit above aluminum) so I don't know if a thermite would work. Perhaps it should be done

I am not a thermite specialist,but a yttrium oxide thermite with added contaminants to make it less potent,such as MolecularWorld's copper thermite, could be done,in theory.
Edit(Finally):What is your(Anybody reading this) opinion on the conversion of red or white phosphorus to violet P that I linked in a previous post? It simply sounds too easy to possibly be true,but I can't put my finger on the reason why.

[Edited on 16-11-2015 by Agari]

Upsilon - 15-11-2015 at 20:47

I've got a lead:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=10249&...

This looks promising. My Y2O3 is supposed to be 99.95%+.

Agari - 16-11-2015 at 21:27

I am going to try a silicon dioxide thermite reaction. The silicon dioxide will come from first synthesizing silicon tetrachloride by first passing chlorine gas through a bubbler of sulfuric acid and then to a reaction tube with silicon powder. The reaction tube will be attached to an ice-cold condenser and the sulfur dichloride contamination filtered using a piece of cotton. Silicon tetrachloride reacts with water to form hydrochloric acid and silicon dioxide as follows:
SiCl4 + 2 H2O = SiO2 + 4 HCl
I am going with a thermite reaction using already-bought silicon just for good memories,I know it is very inefficient.
I am still holding out on a copper thermite.

[Edited on 17-11-2015 by Agari]

j_sum1 - 16-11-2015 at 21:35

Agari, you could just use sand.

Agari - 16-11-2015 at 21:42

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
Agari, you could just use sand.

Pfft,what is fun about using sand though, when I could go with the more sophisticated route and use silicon tetrachloride?

MrHomeScientist - 17-11-2015 at 06:43

My experience with thermites seems a bit different than others. I tried a copper(II) oxide thermite and it went fairly slowly, and I still recovered very little copper metal. Possibly because I made the oxide and it may have had some contamination (it's been so long I don't remember with what, though). I've recovered decent BB-sized manganese pieces from a MnO<sub>2</sub> thermite, which to me seems only slightly more energetic than the regular iron oxide blend. The difficulty there of course is that manganese's boiling point is close to the melting point of alumina, so it's very difficult to get large pieces this way. But still possible to yield something for display.

I've done a number of different types of thermite, and posted the results in my thermite compilation video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwCHWO2EhbI

j_sum1 - 17-11-2015 at 14:38

I watched your thermite compilation with my class yesterday, MHS. I provided my own voice-over. And yes, your copper one was rather different from what I have experienced. One factor may be that my CuO is really fine. I typically get a brown cloud that I presume is metallic copper. And I have an empty flower pot left behind.

Upsilon - 17-11-2015 at 15:15

Good luck with the SiO2 thermite Agari, I couldn't get anything worth saving from it. The metal(loid) always failed to coalesce effectively. I got blobs of it but they were actually just tiny grit-like pieces clumped together, and they weathered very quickly.

Upsilon - 17-11-2015 at 17:24

So the manganese dioxide I started the manganese acetate experiment with has some amount of iron contamination, indicated by the yellowish color of the manganese acetate solution. I know it doesn't take much iron at all to cause some discoloration, but I just don't know how much I have. I've been thinking of ways to test it, and I may have something worth trying. If I precipitate out both the iron and manganese compounds by adding sodium carbonate, then react these carbonates with hydrochloric acid, what type of iron chloride would I get - (II) or (III)? I suspect that I would get (II). For what I have in mind, I need iron(III) chloride, so would I be able to add hydrogen peroxide to oxidize it to iron(III) without oxidizing the Mn(II) to some higher state? Wikipedia says that FeCl3 quickly reacts with oxalates to afford the [Fe(C2O4)3]3- complex.

Well, that's as far as I'm going to go with it for now. Too many "what ifs" already.

j_sum1 - 17-11-2015 at 19:35

Watch nurdrage's videos on manganese sulfate purification. I have tried some of the same techniques with manganese chloride but that seems to be more difficult.

As always, ferrocyanide and ferricyanide will test for iron (III) and (II) respectively. You could do something with a colormetric test to get quantitative. In the absence of a detector, you could get a ballpark figure by mixing a solution for comparing with. TheHomeScientist on YT has a technique using a spotting tray that works well. Search for boron on his channel.

But really, if the iron is not colouring too much, then it is likely low. Therefore not going to affect things much.

Upsilon - 17-11-2015 at 20:51

Yeah the color really isn't bad at all, I'll upload a picture tomorrow.

Right now I'm wondering about how to get a scandium sample. I really should just buy it, but I can also get scandium oxide for not a whole lot more expensive than regular scandium metal. Still though, it is risky - 2.5g is $40, and that is not nearly enough to experiment with so I would have to use it up all at once. And if it fails, that's $40 down the drain.

MrHomeScientist - 18-11-2015 at 06:15

Quote: Originally posted by Upsilon  
Right now I'm wondering about how to get a scandium sample. I really should just buy it, but I can also get scandium oxide for not a whole lot more expensive than regular scandium metal. Still though, it is risky - 2.5g is $40, and that is not nearly enough to experiment with so I would have to use it up all at once. And if it fails, that's $40 down the drain.

I've done a bit of reading on separating rare earth metals from monazite ore, and I get the sense that reducing the compounds to the pure metals is not a simple task. Probably requires inert atmosphere at least. You may be better off buying it. However you get the metal, be sure to store it under oil or inert gas - my sample has developed a thick white coating of oxide over a few years of storage in a little Ziploc bag. :(

Quote: Originally posted by Upsilon  
Good luck with the SiO2 thermite Agari, I couldn't get anything worth saving from it. The metal(loid) always failed to coalesce effectively. I got blobs of it but they were actually just tiny grit-like pieces clumped together, and they weathered very quickly.

Again, my experience differs. I made some reasonable sized pieces of silicon from sand thermite. My second attempt is on my channel, which resulted in somewhat less pretty grain-of-rice-sized shards. Still, entirely possible to obtain display-worthy samples from thermite.

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
I watched your thermite compilation with my class yesterday, MHS. I provided my own voice-over.

That's awesome! I'm glad to hear my work is being used in the classroom. I haven't done anything on YouTube in a long time; seems like I should get back to it.

extracting elements from everyday sources

kemster90 - 27-1-2016 at 16:00

for note i dont own any of these videos

hydrogen
source:from HCl acid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F693cIjEjLo

lithium
source:energizer battery
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BliWUHSOalU


sodium
source:solid lye drain cleaner
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rL1cKb3_ojE


potassium
source:KCl
no video

magnesium
source:magnesium firestarter

calcium
source:calcium chloride
electrolysis under argon environment
no video

titanium
source: titanium pigment
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IpMkPY7TNQ

manganese
source:non rechargeable battery
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYBNmV6jA90

iron
source:steel wool

cobalt
source:NiMH rechargeable battery
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft-zjHP7tWg

nickel
source: nickel US coin or rechargeable batterty

copper
source: copper pipe or react aluminum with copper sulfate

zinc
source:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtZ_vwXy2vg

Boron
source:Boric acid roach killer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QBCyOrjR2o

Carbon
source:non rechargeable battery
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9O8s_pqsF8

Nitrogen
source:

Oxygen
source: peroxide

aluminum
source:aluminum foil
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phMgqT6EsYc

silicon
source:sand

chlorine
source: HCl

Bromine
source: bromation

iodine
source:

bismuth
source:pepmo bismo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp1fYtYEfoQ

tungsten
source:welding rod

Sulfur
source: matches

Phosphorus
source: matches

silver
source: silver solder

cerium
source:ferrocerium rod from a lighter

neodymium
source:neodymium magnets

thorium
source:tungsten tig welding rod

americium
source:smoke detector

helium
source:helium tank

argon
source: welding supply for mig welding

hope to add
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solder
to extract metals from here

[Edited on 28-1-2016 by kemster90]

symboom - 29-1-2016 at 15:21

making phosphorus
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mibM4WUx74Q

Herr Haber - 29-1-2016 at 22:57

Last year I was going out with a girl who's father is one of the top 2 chemists in his specialty (Chirality) in our country.
Since she had asked him some advice (she's herself on her way to a PHD in Physics) about books for my Xmas present he was a bit worried as the books they settled on where
1) One on explosives and propellants (very boring after reading Urbansky
2 The other one was about crystals, the naming, what could catalyse crystallization. I learned a lot there.

Of course, since his daughter was spending a lot of time at my place he had some concerns about my "lab" even though his daugher explained to him how paranoid I was with cleaning before, after, myself, using solvents to remove any trace from contaminents on glassware.
Seeing where the interrogation was going (and quite expecting it!) I "reassured" him by promising I would never try to collect any element beyond 94 and didnt plan to add chlorine trifluoride to my inventory either.
He paused for a second and laughed. Too bad I'm not with his daughter anymore. He would have been a great father in law. :D

I did spoil the mood though a little afterwards when I mentioned I planed to distill some SO3 from a persulfate (details in the Library)...

Elements collection

crystal grower - 5-2-2016 at 14:00

Hello,
I want to make my own collection of elements, but buying complete ptable from internet is NOT my goal.
I want to collect elements mainly from easily affordable sources (for example tungsten from lightbulb etc.)
Buying some of them would be the last option.
Could anyone help me to expand my collection by advising sources?
Thanks a lot.
I already have:
Hydrogen
Oxygen
Nitrogen
Sulfur
Iron
Copper
Tungsten
Tin
Bismuth
Antimony
Zinc
Magnesium
Lead
Mercury
Gold
Silver
Nickel
Fluorine (as CaF2)
Aluminium
Carbon
(Sorry that they aren't in order).



szuko03 - 5-2-2016 at 14:07

A few days ago I opened a Lithium battery to remove the elemental lithium sheet contained with in. I can also attest to the fact without storage available the instant you liberate it from the steel housing the shiny luster of lithium will quickly be a memory for you.

I am also working on Red Phosphorus from match book strikers in an effort to obtain some elemental P for my collection as well. Those are too not too hard or expensive projects for you, the warning being they take time so be sure to set aside time for the work.

Also you can always try to get the iodine out of povidone iodine, using some common chemicals and thats really just mixing, filtering and subliming the iodine... I havent actually completed one though.

[Edited on 5-2-2016 by szuko03]

j_sum1 - 5-2-2016 at 14:13

There are already a number of threads on element collecting. Lots of us do it.

Seems like you have a good start. Some (many) can't eaily be isolated by home chemist.

I recommend boron as a good project. Look up the youtube by mrhomescientist.

crystal grower - 5-2-2016 at 14:34

Thanks for answers.
Do anyone knows whch halogen is used in osram 64210 headlights bulb or in some other atomotive halogen lightbulbs?

IrC - 5-2-2016 at 16:08

Quote: Originally posted by crystal grower  
Thanks for answers.
Do anyone knows whch halogen is used in osram 64210 headlights bulb or in some other atomotive halogen lightbulbs?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halogen_lamp

Odds are your answer is covered under 'Halogen cycle'.

I need help with an element...

E-Hunter - 5-2-2016 at 20:52

I am an element collector,as you can probably tell from my name. I currently seek to collect Arsenic as part of my collection. I currently have 14 elements in my collection,they are:
Lithium (From Batteries)
Hydrogen (From lithium and water reaction)
Helium (From balloon,most likely very impure)
Carbon (From Batteries)
Oxygen (From bleach and hydrogen peroxide)
Sulfur (Bought,I would like a method of extracting it from a sulfur-containing compound though)
Sodium and potassium (Would also like a method of extraction from a sodium/potassium compound).
Chlorine (From pool acid and hydrochloric acid)
Bromine (From sodium bromide)
Iron (from a few grams grams of thermite)
Zinc (Bought)
Tin (Bought)
Aluminum (Bought)

I would like to know practical methods of extracting the elements that I listed as "Bought" from compounds containing those elements. Back to my original question: How would one extract Arsenic from Orpiment (Bought online)?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orpiment

So far,I have only been able to come up with essentially placing the orpiment in a metal container and lighting gasoline under it,but have little idea as to what to do after isolating the Arsenic Trioxide. Arsenic is probably the most dangerous element I will try to collect. Speaking of danger,what would be a good way to deal with the Arsenic Trioxide once it has been isolated from Orpiment? What about isolating the other bought elements that I mentioned from compounds containing them?

Thanks!

[Edited on 6-2-2016 by E-Hunter]

j_sum1 - 5-2-2016 at 22:55

I would suggest that arsenic is off limits for amateur extraction until you have a really good understanding of what you are doing, all the relevant chemistry and have some good lab skills (including waste disposal procedures.) Until then, buy a sample. Preferaby ampouled. If you must persist with this idea, search everything you can on arsenic and orpiment on these board and read every word before doing anything. The topic has come up before. As compounds have a history of killing people and are not to be trifled with.

Sodium and potassium are good projects. There is a lengthy thread on reduction of potassium hydroxide using magnesium and a tertiary alcohol catalyst. Worth a read. Very doable by the amateur but also a challenge. An easier method is a thermite-style reaction using magnesium powder. Losses will be high, but it is quick and simple. Search on youtube for an example. Sodium is also obtainable by the same route. Better production of Na can be done by electrolysis of a molten salt. Again, read threads on the subject.

Aluminium -- just buy it. Extraction from an oxide is just not worth the effort.

Zinc can be extracted from a carbon zinc battery or an alkaline battery.

Sulfur can be obtained by acidifying a thiosulfate solution and filtering. I think you would be better to buy gardening grade sulfur and purify by recrystallising using xylene (or toluene.)

Silicon can be got from sand via a thermite reaction. Titanium can be gotten also from pottery grade TiO2. Neither of these are exactly straightforward but they are a good challenge. They are not on your list but I think are candidates for what you say you are attempting to do.

You don't mention copper. I get mine from stripping electrical wires. If you want to extract it however you could perform electrolysis on copper sulfate. The spin-off of sulfuric acid might also be useful.

Electrolysis of solutions will also give you chromium, tin, nickel and others.

For other elements, a read of this thread will give you some options.

Good luck. Element collecting is fun!

crystal grower - 6-2-2016 at 06:47

Thanks for advices, I've successfully obtained Lithium from battery and molybden, tungsten and some argon from light bulb. :D

Herr Haber - 7-2-2016 at 09:17

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
I would suggest that arsenic is off limits for amateur extraction until you have a really good understanding of what you are doing, all the relevant chemistry and have some good lab skills (including waste disposal procedures.) Until then, buy a sample. Preferaby ampouled. If you must persist with this idea, search everything you can on arsenic and orpiment on these board and read every word before doing anything. The topic has come up before. As compounds have a history of killing people and are not to be trifled with.


Arsenic metal is ok if you already have it in metal form. It's commonly used in metallurgy and in the making of Calcium Carbide. This is where I got my first lump from: I use CaC2 for caving and we always sift through the remains to check for leftovers CaC2 that might be usable. From the little I remember (and to keep the explanation short) it acts a little bit like the butter you put at the bottom of your mould for making a cake when you want to get your Calcium Carbide from the mould it has been formed into the arc furnace. (A bit over simplistic, I hope no metallurgy specalist will throw me hot slag ;) )

Arsenic salts on the other hand are an enterily other matter. As the user above implies it they have been commonly used to get rid of unwanted family members.
So I'd be very weary of extracting Arsenic from one of it's salts.

Texium - 7-2-2016 at 09:46

This page might be useful to those of you interested in collecting elements:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/smwiki/index.php/Topical_Compe...

(it's still a work in progress)

elementcollector1 - 7-2-2016 at 11:27

Arsenic is most definitely off-limits until you have more experience. At the very least, you'll need some experience with sublimating compounds in closed, sealed tubes. Of metal. If you wish to use orpiment, simply powder it (very, very carefully) and mix with something like excess carbon and sublimate.

Personally, I recommend Skutterudite for As extraction, as it is relatively safe even when powdered.

Zinc can be precipitated from single displacement, or from electrolysis (under the right conditions, because zinc can mildly react with water), etc, etc.

Tin can be found in solder, and extracted by dissolution with excess HCl, filtering off the insoluble lead chloride (careful), and either subject this to electrolysis or single displacement (aluminum should work well).

Sulfur can also be obtained via bubbling H2S into bleach. H2S can be made by mixing a sulfide and HCl (careful, this stuff's toxic too).

E-Hunter - 7-2-2016 at 16:12

Thank you to all of the above posters for your advice, for now,the Orpiment sample which I bought will be my Arsenic sample. I am going to work on getting Sulfur for now.

woelen - 8-2-2016 at 00:05

Last weekend I have been busy making element samples for permanent display.

I have ampouled the following elements which I had as chemical, but now I set aside part of them as beautiful element sample:

Boron (99.7% crystalline)
Cadmium shot (99.9%)
Indium shot (very shiny, 3N grade)
Violet phosphorus (made this myself: appr. 500 mg made from 25 grams of red P, it looks grey like graphite)
Selenium (corpuscles, 5N grade)

I also ordered a few samples, which I cannot make myself:
- iron 99.995%, electrolytic flakes, under argon
- manganese 99.99%, electrolytic flakes, under argon
- vanadium feather-like crystals, 99.9%, under argon
- samarium 99.99%, oxide-free, in quartz ampoule, vacuum-sealed.
- lithium 99.5%, oxide-free, under argon
- calcium 99.9%, oxide-free, under argon

I now am in the process of getting really beautiful samples of all the elements, free of oxide-layers, shiny and durable in sealed ampoules. At the moment I have almost 40 elements in the form of ampouled samples or perfectly sealed glass vials.

These ordered samples were quite expensive, between EUR 15 and EUR 20 per sample.

[Edited on 8-2-16 by woelen]

crystal grower - 8-2-2016 at 10:57

Congratulations Woelen, great hunt;).
Maybe you could send me some Indium :D:D just joking but I'd be glad for Indium sample, do you know any cheap source ??

woelen - 8-2-2016 at 11:32

A good source for indium is onyxmet.com. They sell ampouled indium in the form of small shiny spheres, which can nicely be ampouled. My indium is from them, and I made two ampoules of this (one with appr. 9 grams and one with appr. 1 gram).

-----------------------------------------

I now made a new chlorine sample, which very well demonstrates the color of Cl2. I made appr. 200 ml of gas, dried this with a 1 : 5 mix of P4O10 and CaCl2 and then dissolved this in appr. 5 ml of reagent grade CCl4. More than half of the Cl2 dissolved in the small amount of CCl4, it is amazing to see how well Cl2 dissolves in this. The resulting solution is deep yellow and above the solution, there is a faint color of gaseous Cl2. I ampouled this 5 ml of liquid and now I have a sample of Cl2 with a very strong color.

I also ampouled a solution of a single drop of Br2 in CCl4 (which is a nice deep red/brown solution) and a solution of a small granule of I2 in CCl4 (which has a purple color). Now I have three additional samples of halogens, which are quite unique. I used CCl4, because this does not react with halogens and can be stored indefinitely, also when displayed in full daylight.

Soon, I will make pictures of all my samples.

Edit: I made another ampoule of iodine, now with iodine, dissolved in (Et)2O. This solution is brown and is archetypal for the appearance of solutions of iodine in many oxygen-containing solvents. The deep purple color in the other ampoule is archetypal for the color of iodine in aliphatic hydrocarbons and halogenated aliphatic hydrocarbons. Now my set for the halogens is complete, the elements, and representative solutions in solvents which can be stored indefinitely.

[Edited on 8-2-16 by woelen]

crystal grower - 9-2-2016 at 09:10

Today I have expanded my small collection with red phosphorus from match boxes.
Now I want to make some borium ( from b2o3).
Is there some other way of extraction but thermite reaction?
For example electrolysis or something else....

And second question, how do I recognise what metal is used in various types of spark plugs ??
Thanks for answer.

And by the way , shouldn't be this topic sticky and maybe moved to miscellaneous?

[Edited on 9-2-2016 by crystal grower]

blogfast25 - 9-2-2016 at 09:54

Quote: Originally posted by crystal grower  
Today I have expanded my small collection with red phosphorus from match boxes.
Now I want to make some borium ( from b2o3).
Is there some other way of extraction but thermite reaction?
For example electrolysis or something else....



Magnesiothermy reportedly gives better results than aluminothermy but the product will still be quite contaminated (with borides). Brauer (library) may give a procedure.

Dissolving NdFeB magnets in acid leaves a residue of B but not much, of course.

[Edited on 9-2-2016 by blogfast25]

The Volatile Chemist - 9-2-2016 at 10:17

I always forget about the solder source for tin. I have ~2.5 spools of solder from the now-gone Radio Shack (RIP), and my iron went out a year ago. I'll
have to get some PbCl2 and tin out of some of it.
I tried to get some lithium out of a lithium-polymer battery the other day. I thought the lithium was in solid form, and went through a whole collection process, only to find my 'lithium' was aluminum...

crystal grower - 10-2-2016 at 05:27

Maybe its a stupid idea but would it be possible to make elemental boron by putting Al rod into molten Boron trioxide ?? (It doesnt matter how pure it will be).
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