Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Competition — Lab from five OTC items

Competition — Lab from five OTC items

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j_sum1 - 12-11-2015 at 02:20

In the interests of giving a little back and because it has been a while since the last competition, I propose a little challenge.

Briefly, purchase five over-the-counter items and use these and no other reagents to conduct as many interesting, useful, novel, educational or just plain cool chemical reactions.

You have some time to plan and execute. Christmas holidays for those of us down south. A whole winter of lab time for those in the north. Submissions are due via email by 29 March -- just after Easter.

Prize is an account at www.onyxmet.com to the value of $50USD, plus something from Tom at Onyxmet plus a funky inorganic package from woelen, plus a little more cash on the account if I can manage it.

Full details can be found in this GoogleDoc:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1R47ZRRW6dpLLS4iKicJTF41S...

I am sure that the comp will appeal to beginners but it would be great if some of the heavyweights and forum personalities got involved too.

This thread is here to discuss rule ambiguities, thrash out ideas, and discuss any matters that arise related to the competition.

Oh, and one more thing. If you think you might be interested in putting in an entry, could you either post to this thread or send me a U2U. I'd love to have an idea of how many are getting involved. If there are sufficient numbers then it might be worthwhile rustling up some more prize money and perhaps giving some prizes for places.

Have fun.
j_sum1

[edit] Prize updated. It's looking like a pretty sweet deal now!

[Edited on 13-11-2015 by j_sum1]

JJay - 12-11-2015 at 05:47

Hmm this sounds interesting

Mesa - 12-11-2015 at 07:54

Awesome concept for a competition! Out of interest, do onxymet ship to Australia?

Detonationology - 12-11-2015 at 08:57

I think this should be a cheapest lab challenge too. Anyone with a pocket full of cash can go buy a hotplate w/ stirrer, glass beaker/ flask, etc. to have everything to start a amateur lab, but what about the amateurs that don't have an adequate source of money?

Mesa - 12-11-2015 at 09:08

I'm pretty sure the scope of "otc items" in this competition is specifically reagents.

Equipment is largely unrestricted with the caveat of more DIY = brownie points.

MolecularWorld - 12-11-2015 at 09:36

There should be some reasonable limit on the total cost of the five OTC items; otherwise, I could buy a car, and use it as a source of iron, copper, aluminum, silica, various engine fluids, polymers to destructively distill, etc.
Something like: the total cost of the five OTC products should not exceed the prize payout (currently $50USD), or a laborers' daily wage in your locale, whichever is less (they're about the same where I am).

Equipment should be allowed, within reason. Many "useful" chemical reactions require more than just jelly jars: distillation, electrolysis, gas absorption, etc.

I have some questions for j_sum1:

1) If an OTC product contains more than one chemical, and you separate them before use, does it still count as only one item? For example, if a product contains nitric acid and phosphoric acid, and you separate them before use, does it count as one or two of the five items?
Edit: Based on the detailed rules, I assume such a mixture would count as a single item, per "Would generally be listed as a single item on a receipt."

<span style="text-decoration: line-through;">2) Do air and water count among the five items? For example, if air is used as an oxidizer in a reaction, does that mean you can only use 4 other items? Since we all have these in practically limitless supply, it would be impractical to restrict them, but I have to ask. </span>
Edit: Covered by detailed rules.

<span style="text-decoration: line-through;">3) Is there any limitation on equipment/apparatus? This thread is to appeal to beginners, who may have very little in the way of proper lab apparatus, but (to some extent) the more equipment you have, the more you can make. </span>
Edit: Covered by detailed rules.

4) You ask for submissions by email. Can submissions-in-progress be posted publicly? Here or in another thread? Of course, final, judged submissions would be by email, and the detailed rules state that all submissions will be posted eventually.

[Edited on 12-11-2015 by MolecularWorld]

deltaH - 12-11-2015 at 10:57

Thank you j_sum1 for sponsoring a wonderful competition and for your generosity!

woelen - 12-11-2015 at 11:45

This is a great competition. I am afraid I will not have the time to participate myself, but in order to encourage people to participate and come up with nice results and nice ideas, I decided to add something to the prize. J_sum1 decides who wins, I do not want to influence the competition in any way. But the person who wins can send a U2U to me and he/she will receive the chemicals mentioned below in quantities of 20 to 30 grams, good for many interesting experiments at miniature scale. The set of chemicals is chosen in such a way that they allow many inorganic chemistry experiments to be performed with a minimum of special equipment and a minimum of additional special reagents required. None of these is really OTC and for many people they may be hard to obtain.

vanadium pentoxide, V2O5
sodium nitrite, NaNO2
potassium (or ammonium) thiocyanate, KSCN (or NH4SCN)
sodium chlorite, NaClO2
potassium hydrogen iodate (or potassium iodate), KH(IO3)2 or KIO3

All chemicals will be packaged in double or triple ziplock baggies, put in a bubble envelope. The above chemicals are all non-volatile solids, none of them is very toxic, and as long as they are kept dry and well-sealed they can be shipped safely in these small quantities, world wide. Shipping cost is for me.

Crowfjord - 12-11-2015 at 12:10

Very interesting. I think I might actually participate in this one. I already have an idea

I don't really need the prizes though. In the unlikely event that I won, could I donate the prize to a needier member?

Agari - 12-11-2015 at 14:27

I bet somebody will send a toxic recipe,I can feel it.

[Edited on 12-11-2015 by Agari]

j_sum1 - 12-11-2015 at 15:45

@Mesa
Onyxmet ship to oz. In the case that you don't win the competition, you can make purchases and even pay via bank transfer to an aussie account -- thereby avoiding paypal and international money transfer fees.

@Molecular World
Those are exactly the sort of questions that I was anticipating and hoped to cover in the competition details. I see from what you have crossed out, I did a reasonable job.
Buying a mixture and separating it not only gives you more than one reagent for a single item, it also counts as a synthesis. For example, I didn't know until recently that you could get MEK by distilling plumbers' PVC cement. From my point of view, this is in part a research exercise. I am fishing for ideas such as these.
A car would not count as a suitable item. It has moving parts. That seemed to me to be a sensible place to draw a line.
Ideas can be shared and discussed in this thread if you like. I don't think that will actually diminish the competition at all. You might want to keep your best ideas close to your chest.

@woelen
Thanks for the interest and addition to the prize pool. Vanadium pentoxide mmmmm. Although I wonder if I could make my own from a spanner I have lying around here.

@deltaH.
You're welcome. I think this will be fun actually. But don't think you can escape participating. I have seen what interesting things you can do with two items. It seems this challenge is right up your alley.
Of course, if lab time is scarce these days, you might want to sponsor a newbie by feeding them ideas.

@crowfjord
I'd love you to participate if you can. If you win but don't want the prize, you can still take line honours and defer the rewards to the next in line. Just say so in your submission.

@Agari
Glad that this has piqued your interest. As with anything chemical, there are always toxic or hazardous possibilities. I doubt that will affect things too much.

This competition has been percolating in my head for a couple of months. Inspired in part by the people who turn up from time to time asking what they need to buy to stock a lab. The question always puzzles me since it seems to be often accompanied by a certain vagueness. It is as though they want to get into hobby chemistry but have no clear goal, aren't sure what interests them and have little imagination. I would like to be able to say, "buy a dozen eggs, some talcum powder, a car battery, some paint thinner and a bottle of hair dye. Make four things that go bang, three pretty colours, two party tricks, one elastic bouncy putty thing and a partridge in a pear tree."

It has also been inspired by such discussions as factice rubber, sulfur dichloride, reading about the solvay process (clever recycling of components produced and a large assortment of useful byproducts), ave369's adventures making reagents out of limited available resources, and a few other things. (I hope ave participates.

)

I would really love it if some organic chemists got in the act. That's a whole world that I don't know well. It seems to me that with judicious acquisition of solvents and cleaners there might be quite the assemblage of interesting and useful reagents and all manner of possibilities. I would be particularly interested in anything that illustrates basic organic chem principles well.

Those reading between the lines here will discern part of my motivation. I am collecting ideas that might be useful demos for my students and also ideas that can propel my chemistry knowledge in new directions. I have got a lot of mileage out of disassembling lantern batteries and am looking for resource ideas of an equal calibre.

Agari - 12-11-2015 at 16:53

By "Toxic" I mean the sort of chemicals that only RogueSci could come up with. They even came up with a supposed path to nerve agent synthesis, I hope that the poster provided a fake guide though.

[Edited on 13-11-2015 by Agari]

MolecularWorld - 12-11-2015 at 16:58

Quote:

Ideas can be shared and discussed in this thread if you like. I don't think that will actually diminish the competition at all. You might want to keep your best ideas close to your chest.

I have a few reasons for wanting to share my ideas early.
I was quickly able to determine a set of five widely available products from which I could extract or produce about fifty-five different useful reagents, using procedures that are well known or have already been demonstrated by members here. I may post the outline shortly, in order to:
- determine if it meets all your criteria
- get your opinion on which procedures, if any, I need to personally demonstrate
- ensure others don't submit nearly identical submissions
And, most importantly: inspire others to do better!

j_sum1 - 12-11-2015 at 17:11

Sounds marvelous. U2U me if you don't want to show your hand.

Volanschemia - 12-11-2015 at 17:53

I really like this competition and will most likely enter. I think I have a reaction pathway planned, I just have to iron out one crease...

Thanks j_sum!

MolecularWorld - 12-11-2015 at 18:12

@ j_sum1: U2U sent.

Quote: Originally posted by TheAustralianScientist

I really like this competition and will most likely enter. I think I have a reaction pathway planned, I just have to iron out one crease...

Thanks j_sum!

"A" reaction? I thought the idea was to have as many reactions as possible.

[Edited on 13-11-2015 by MolecularWorld]

Texium - 12-11-2015 at 18:22

Quote: Originally posted by TheAustralianScientist

I think I have a reaction pathway planned, I just have to iron out one crease...

He's dropping hints guys!

Oscilllator - 12-11-2015 at 19:25

This sounds really interesting. My summer holidays start at the end of tomorrow and given that I now live in a small apartment in the city without any prospect of using proper glassware, it could well be worth it to try making a bunch of chemicals with mason jars etc. I'll just have to stay away from the chlorine gas

Volanschemia - 12-11-2015 at 20:27

Quote: Originally posted by MolecularWorld

"A" reaction? I thought the idea was to have as many reactions as possible.

[Edited on 13-11-2015 by MolecularWorld]

If what I have planned works out, it will be multiple reactions.
I'm looking at one main reaction with lots of others possible from byproducts or the same reagents.

Quote: Originally posted by zts16

Quote: Originally posted by TheAustralianScientist

I think I have a reaction pathway planned, I just have to iron out one crease...

He's dropping hints guys!

Maybe...

j_sum1 - 12-11-2015 at 20:29

Iron can do lots of interesting things -- but my experience of aqueous chem of iron is that it is a bit of a mess.

If course, you could buy an iron as one of your items.

MolecularWorld - 12-11-2015 at 20:53

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1

...you could buy an iron as one of your items.

Like, at an antiques shop?

'Cause every iron I've ever seen had switches, relays, solenoid valves, and other little moving parts.

deltaH - 13-11-2015 at 11:45

Thanks jsum (flattered). I don't know if I will be able to enter, but I will certainly try to inspire and help if I can.

Though it won't generate vast trains of series reactions, a couple of weeks ago I found myself thinking about what all could be done starting with paracetamol tablets. They're certainly cheap and OTC nearly everywhere.

Some ideas (not sequential):

Hydrolysis to yield p-aminophenol (HCl)
Oxidation into benzoquinone-imine (H2O2)
Michael additions to the benzoquinone-imine (HCl, H2O2, heat) ... makes perchlorinated product... see chloranil patent (fungacide).
Condensation with acetone to make [bisphenol A]-like polymers and then cross-link. (acetone, HCl then peroxide to crosslink)
Make blue indophenol dyes?

... anyway, not scores of reactions, but very interesting if they could be found/made to work and there's also room for "cross-pollination" between them.

Hey you might even make a blue plastic with added fungicide, all from paracetamol :cool:

ave369 - 13-11-2015 at 14:17

I think I'll try this and make some videos.

aga - 13-11-2015 at 14:40

Excellent Challenge jsum_1.

I'll not be able to devote any time to it, so i'll throw 50 euros into the prize fund, to be given out as you decide.

If it were me, some Copper compound would definitely be amongst my 5.

Calcium too. Hang on, maybe Potassium.

Decisions decisions ...

[Edited on 13-11-2015 by aga]

Hawkguy - 13-11-2015 at 16:08

Salt, electrolized could make Sodium Hydroxide solution, or Sodium Hypochlorite, Sodium Chlorate, and Sodium Perchlorate from decomposition of Chlorate. Collected Chlorine could make Hydrochloric Acid, or Halogenated whatever. With Ammonia also there could be Ammonium Chloride, Hydrazine from reaction with Hypochlorite, and Ammonium Chlorate / Perchlorate. Urea or Epsom salts might be interesting too, as well as aspirin tablets. Hmm

Hawkguy - 13-11-2015 at 16:09

With Sulfuric Acid or Sodium bisulfate are also nice prospects.

Etaoin Shrdlu - 13-11-2015 at 18:12

Are brewery supply shops and/or health supplement stores fair game?

j_sum1 - 13-11-2015 at 18:33

Quote: Originally posted by Etaoin Shrdlu

Are brewery supply shops and/or health supplement stores fair game?

oh yeah. Sodium metabisulfite, whey powder and choline chloride. There's some possibilities there.

Back soon.

Texium - 13-11-2015 at 18:37

How about pottery stores, photography stores?

j_sum1 - 14-11-2015 at 07:06

@aga
You know, the competition runs for a while. You might change your mind. Circumstances may change. I'd love to have you throw your hand in.

Or contribute some prize money. That's pretty cool too. The available loot here is creeping upwards. I will get back to you on that one. If we have many participants there might be reason to award second and third places.

@zts
Photographic stores I think will be ok. I mentioned them in the rules. But if your item comes from a photographic store and has no significant use in photography, then I think that steps over a line.

@MolecularWorld
I think it might be possible to be a bit pedantic on moving parts. I would not want to exclude something of the nature of a screw-top lid or a spring. One could even argue that a gas has many moving parts. I would allow an iron with a couple of switches and solenoids. Hopefully this does not open up realms of confusion. If anyone has a serious question on the matter, just ask.

As of aga's offer, the prize pool is 100USD, 50EUD and a package from woelen.
Counting U2Us and posts in this thread, there are 9-10 individuals that have indicated an interest in entering. Where they have been disclosed, the ideas have been really diverse and roughly split between organic and inorganic.

I can't wait to see them all come in.

aga - 14-11-2015 at 08:42

Depending on other pointless distractions (work, life etc) i may well have a bash at this.

Sounds like good fun almost anyone can have a go at.

The €50 is there either way.

(it's Euros, not Euro Dollars - Yet !

)

ave369 - 16-11-2015 at 14:32

Here in Russia we have the KROT brand of drain openers. It is a mixture of sodium hydroxide, sodium sulfate and sodium chloride. The hydroxide is in pellets, and the other two as fine powder, so you can easily separate the hydroxide with gauze cloth. I will definitely use this one, it can give me three chemicals for the price of one: sodium hydroxide, hydrochloric acid and sodium bisulfate.

j_sum1 - 16-11-2015 at 17:06

The different kinds of drain openers available in different parts of the world has been something of an unexpected revelation. I have not encountered that particular mix before. Sounds like a good choice!

ave369 - 17-11-2015 at 07:50

I think I already know my list of OTC items:

1. The Bat
2. Saltpeter (potassium nitrate, fertilizer)
3. KROT
4. Bleach
5. Nails. Ordinary carpenter's nails. Ferrum.

Two very interesting experiments can be done with nails. One is making ferric sulfate and its decomposition to make SO3. Another is an experimental KOH-less method of preparing potassium ferrate.

woelen - 18-11-2015 at 02:47

I put this thread on top, it will remain so until the end of the competition.

Agari - 20-11-2015 at 15:00

This is going to sound incredibly dumb,but does tap water count as a separate item?

[Edited on 20-11-2015 by Agari]

j_sum1 - 20-11-2015 at 15:13

It's in the detailed instructions.
Worth a re-read if you need clarification on a few points.

The Volatile Chemist - 21-11-2015 at 06:56

Wow, what an incredible competition! Count me in. The only other one ive been in was the Chemistry Copper Carnival Competition. I'll look at the rules when I finally get out of bed...

What if I do some biology stuff with the reagents? It'll still be 'experiments'. But I'll be making useful stuff by them.

j_sum1 - 21-11-2015 at 10:56

A packet of yeast counts as an item. Likewise a packet of seeds. If you collect mould from bread, fruitflies from your fruit-bowl or mushrooms from your lawn, they count as an item.
If you collect a wild yeast from the air, you get that one for free. But it does make it a bit more difficult for others to replicate and so repeatability may be a issue.

Texium - 21-11-2015 at 11:32

So just to clarify this completely: if you buy one item, say, a paint stripper that contains a few different solvents and then separate it into its pure compounds, that still only counts as one item?

j_sum1 - 21-11-2015 at 11:46

Quote: Originally posted by zts16

So just to clarify this completely: if you buy one item, say, a paint stripper that contains a few different solvents and then separate it into its pure compounds, that still only counts as one item?

Yep. As per my comment to MolecularWorld

Agari - 7-12-2015 at 15:21

I'm having trouble with my Word Document. When I inserted the pictures of the first few stages of my procedure and then saved and exited,they became an unrecognizable jumble of pixels when I came back to update it a few days later with some additional notes. I tried scanning my computer with my antivirus in case an infection was causing the pictures to distort,but it detected nothing. Does anybody have any ideas on how to fix that issue?

[Edited on 7-12-2015 by Agari]

j_sum1 - 7-12-2015 at 21:29

What format were the pix in? is it just the pictures that are corrupted or the whole document? If the rest of the document is ok, then I would simply delete the pictures and try again -- preferably converting to another format first.

Volanschemia - 8-12-2015 at 02:14

Wow, I'm not even close to starting mine yet. Hoping to trial the first step Friday.

Agari - 9-12-2015 at 14:32

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1

What format were the pix in? is it just the pictures that are corrupted or the whole document? If the rest of the document is ok, then I would simply delete the pictures and try again -- preferably converting to another format first.

I tried doing what you said,still no luck with the pictures.

Agari - 14-12-2015 at 14:22

Quote: Originally posted by Agari

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1

I tried doing what you said,still no luck with the pictures.

Alright,I did a backup on my computer and loading in pictures should be fine now.

The Volatile Chemist - 14-12-2015 at 15:41

I'm a procrastinator...didn't start the last contest I entered till the day prior. That didn't work, I got last place

I've got plans. Who knows if they'll work. We'll see, Christmas break

(totally not ruining any new glassware with MnO₂

)

Crowfjord - 14-12-2015 at 16:34

Would molecular seives qualify as a laboratory consumable?

j_sum1 - 15-12-2015 at 01:49

Quote: Originally posted by Crowfjord

Would molecular seives qualify as a laboratory consumable?

Yeah, why not. They won't form part of your final product. And presumably you dry and re-use them -- just like you would a beaker.

[Edited on 15-12-2015 by j_sum1]

skip - 15-12-2015 at 18:04

I would like to enter the contest. I have couple ideas that I been toying with , all otc and harmless. Cost about 50 bucks. Just for fun of course.

j_sum1 - 16-12-2015 at 16:32

Quote: Originally posted by skip

I would like to enter the contest. I have couple ideas that I been toying with , all otc and harmless. Cost about 50 bucks. Just for fun of course.

Great. I can't wait to see your ideas! And everyone else's of course. I think this is going to be really exciting when the submissions come in.

Agari - 17-12-2015 at 15:20

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1

Quote: Originally posted by skip

I would like to enter the contest. I have couple ideas that I been toying with , all otc and harmless. Cost about 50 bucks. Just for fun of course.

Great. I can't wait to see your ideas! And everyone else's of course. I think this is going to be really exciting when the submissions come in.

I am interested in what can be made with harmless reagents that cost less than $50,with the final product also being harmless as well.

I am just a bit nervous right now,so I will ask again just to be safe before it's too late: If tap water is used to form part of the final product,does it count as an item? What about electrodes that contain a material that can be used as a catalyst for a reaction(And is obviously not consumed in said reaction)?

I don't want to get disqualified for using an extra item due to a misunderstanding,so I want to clarify this completely.

[Edited on 17-12-2015 by Agari]

j_sum1 - 17-12-2015 at 15:43

@Agiri
Both your questions are addressed in the instructions.
Tap water is ok.
Lab equipment that is not consumed does not count as an item. That would include catalysts. But of course, if your catalyst was not unrecoverable, that would be an issue.

Agari - 17-12-2015 at 16:03

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1

@Agiri
Both your questions are addressed in the instructions.
Tap water is ok.
Lab equipment that is not consumed does not count as an item. That would include catalysts. But of course, if your catalyst was not unrecoverable, that would be an issue.

WHEW! That sure is a relief.

j_sum1 - 17-12-2015 at 22:55

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1

I meant "not recoverable".
Lest there be confusion.
Don't never not use no double negatives.

Agari - 20-12-2015 at 20:00

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1

Don't never not use no double negatives.

Ah,the intentional or unintentional misuse of grammar,one of the most irritating things that I can't help but react to.

Volanschemia - 20-12-2015 at 21:09

Quote: Originally posted by Agari

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1

Don't never not use no double negatives.

Ah,the intentional or unintentional misuse of grammar,one of the most irritating things that I can't help but react to.

In case you didn't get the humor in that line, it was actually meant to be taken as a joke.

Agari - 20-12-2015 at 21:22

Quote: Originally posted by Volanschemia

Quote: Originally posted by Agari

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1

Don't never not use no double negatives.

Ah,the intentional or unintentional misuse of grammar,one of the most irritating things that I can't help but react to.

In case you didn't get the humor in that line, it was actually meant to be taken as a joke.

I know it was meant to be a joke,I am just saying that I find misuse of grammar very irritating,whether it was done on purpose or not.

j_sum1 - 20-12-2015 at 21:25

I'll try not to irritate you again agari.

numos - 20-12-2015 at 23:03

Count me in!

Question: You made it pretty clear that the results should be geared towards beginners, ones an amateur can replicate, does that mean there is a restriction on hazard level? There are some pretty bad nasties that can be made from simple household chemicals that are still useful intermediates...

-numos

j_sum1 - 20-12-2015 at 23:21

I will post submissions so they are available to all. Just include appropriate hazard information in your submission so that anyone following your procedure knows what to expect and how to look after themselves.

People have killed themselves using bleach and ammonia. I would not want to exclude these for example.

The Volatile Chemist - 30-12-2015 at 14:41

Hmm, we've got plenty of time, I'll put it off a little longer...

Volanschemia - 30-12-2015 at 18:11

I'm waiting a couple of days for the weather to cool down a bit before I start mine. Wouldn't want anything to get to excited...

The Volatile Chemist - 30-12-2015 at 18:17

Haha, I may set out the main part of my reaction tomorrow to see if it works. If it does, I'll go ahead with my plan.

j_sum1 - 27-1-2016 at 21:22

Bumpity Bump.

No noise on this project for a while and so I just thought I would draw attention to it again. Competition closes in a couple of months so it is not too late to make a start. Of course that time could slip away quickly if you are not careful.

As always, post here or send me a message if you have questions.
Feel free also to give a progress report or encourage others along.

J.

JJay - 15-2-2016 at 02:06

I am pretty sure I have decided on a project for the contest entry. One question - am I correct in assuming that water does not count as one of the five OTC items (since one could build an apparatus to extract it from the air)?

j_sum1 - 15-2-2016 at 02:12

Good to hear Jjay. I can't wait to read the submissions.

In the rules, water and air can be used as much as you want without counting towards the five items.

The Volatile Chemist - 22-2-2016 at 15:48

I hope my lack of unique experiments is overcome by the hopefully good presentation I make...

j_sum1 - 23-2-2016 at 01:37

TVC
I am sure you will do a great job. I have said it before but I will repeat it. I can't wait to see all of the submissions. My only concern is that with the generous time scale the momentum has worn off for a few competitors. I know of two who have had to pull out due to a change of circumstances. I am hoping for a good turn out. But if not, I would say that if you submit something then your chances of walking away with a grand prize are pretty good.

The Volatile Chemist - 27-2-2016 at 09:48

Thanks!
Today I'll begin the write-up, and I realized a way I could use something more complex for one of my five items without loosing any of the reactions. Thanks for running this! Looking forward to seeing everyone Else's entries.

j_sum1 - 18-3-2016 at 17:40

Just alerting everyone that this has about ten days left.
Prize is still good.

If you haven't started then it is probably cutting it a wee bit fine. If you have made some progress, time to write up what you have. I am really looking forward to seeing all the ideas.

JJay - 24-3-2016 at 14:58

I have some time off work, so here is what I am experimenting with this weekend:

j_sum1 - 24-3-2016 at 16:20

woohoo!
What is in your starter fluid?

I can see some interesting possibilities here.

JJay - 24-3-2016 at 18:22

Diethyl ether, light petroleum (really, a mixture of n-heptane and methylcyclohexane), and carbon dioxide.

JJay - 28-3-2016 at 00:53

I don't think I'm going to complete my entry by the deadline, but hopefully someone wins that prize

j_sum1 - 28-3-2016 at 03:01

How much time do you need JJay?

There was a flurry of interest when I first posted this competition. I thought a generous time-frame would give everyone a fighting chance but I think it had the opposite effect -- the original impetus died down.

AFAIK, you are the only one seriously working on this JJay. I am keen to give out the prize money and even keener to read some submissions.

So, if you think you can come up with something in a reasonable time-frame then I think that will be fine.
And for anyone else who has been lurking and working away quietly, post your intentions here.
It is a competition so I need to be fair. But I also want to reward novel ideas and good efforts. So, if anyone needs a little bit longer, then just let me know.

JJay - 28-3-2016 at 08:11

I'll see what I can do... I am going to have to cobble together a ceramic tube somehow... I'd estimate three more days.

Volanschemia - 28-3-2016 at 14:49

I came up with a really nice (I think) plan of action for this competition, but then didn't realise how much time entering Year 11 and a trip around Tasmania would take.

The whole pathway will probably take at least a week, as there is a few steps that take a while. I could possibly have it done by the end of the holidays but I definitely don't want to hold the competition up that long.

I do want to try it out anyway and see if it works, so I will probably post results here anyway when I do get around to it.

j_sum1 - 28-3-2016 at 14:58

I would rather have a head to head race between the two of you than just a single entry. If there are no objections I will extend to the end of the aussie school holidays -- 10 April.

Volanschemia - 28-3-2016 at 15:15

Yay! Looks like I'm still in then, I'll start on the first step this afternoon (probably the most boring, but oh well, it gets better later)!

JJay - 28-3-2016 at 15:40

Sounds good.

Volanschemia - 31-3-2016 at 22:59

First couple of steps are done!
I'm having a little trouble with one, will try plan B tomorrow.

The Volatile Chemist - 1-4-2016 at 19:20

j_sum, meant to tell you before Easter, but I was ahem, 'parentally constrained' from submitting anything due to the prizes from various 'non-reputable sources'. Sorry.

j_sum1 - 1-4-2016 at 19:25

Gotta love those parental constraints.

If you have time to scratch together your ideas and post them I'd love to see it. It seemed like you had some good creative ideas.

Volanschemia - 4-4-2016 at 16:04

Ran into a problem, found a solution today.
I'm still definitely in, but can't afford any more errors! Luckily the rest is fairly straightforward. Finish line here I come!

woelen - 5-4-2016 at 00:21

I'm looking forward to the results of this competition. As promised, the set of chemicals for the winner is still avaialble and there is some choice as well (will be arranged through U2U).

Volanschemia - 5-4-2016 at 03:13

Just curious, is there anyone who is still planning on submitting an entry besides JJay and I?

[Edited on 5-4-2016 by Volanschemia]

The Volatile Chemist - 5-4-2016 at 16:50

J_sum, here's my partial work...sorry about how it turned out.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hW79cQlRhn9cLUjUru_Ucr8n...

Volanschemia - 8-4-2016 at 04:35

I have finished the lab work! It's been enormous fun and definitely the longest time I've ever spent in the lab in one week, about 6 full days I'd say. Thank you j_sum for getting me to do some stuff!

Onto the write-up now.

JJay - 8-4-2016 at 04:57

I don't think I'm going to make it... my tube furnace crumbled before I could perfect making aluminum chloride in it (probably should use a fully fired tube), and I'm out of nichrome wire.

j_sum1 - 8-4-2016 at 05:09

Noooo! JJay. Don't flake now! You are close to the finish line.
You can always write down your ideas anyway.

JJay - 8-4-2016 at 08:21

True, but without actually doing the experiments to prove that they are possible... it seems unlikely to be found a winner.

Then again, I guess I will leave that to you to decide

[Edited on 8-4-2016 by JJay]

Volanschemia - 9-4-2016 at 05:33

Well, my submission is in! It's all in the hands of our benevolent judge now

.

Good luck to fellow competitors!

The Volatile Chemist - 9-4-2016 at 17:28

Ouch, now I feel really bad I didn't at least finish typing something up...sorry for the lack of interest from everyone j_sum, you put together quite the competition here.

j_sum1 - 9-4-2016 at 23:02

I read through yours TVC. You had some good ideas there and it all looked feasible. There certainly was a range of products. Of course concept and execution are two different things. And circumstances were working against you.

I have skim-read Volanschemia's submission. Nice work and great presentation. A couple of dozen organic synths and extractions. Some are for very important products. There were a few that he could not complete due to time but he provided links to some procedures to show they were feasible. That is going to be a blast to read fully.

Molecularworld sent me a U2U with some preliminary ideas. He chose five seemingly simple OTC products and rattled off a list of 55 products that could easily be made. And I get the feeling he stopped at 55 because he got tired of typing rather than running out of ideas. Not sure it really counts as a submission but there is value there nonetheless.

Still waiting on JJay. I know he has done a bit of work on this and also that he hit a couple of hurdles. I think his list of OTC products is a little more diverse and so he could have some unusual compounds in there.

When everything is in, I will do a side by side comparison and make my decision. I'll also give some feedback on what I have learned in this process and the value I see in it. And of course, post publically the submissions for all to benefit.

J.

JJay - 10-4-2016 at 00:29

This was my plan:

Distill ether out of starting fluid
Create hydrogen chloride gas by dropping sulfuric acid onto calcium chloride
Create hydrochloric acid by gassing water with hydrogen chloride
Create hydrogen by dropping hydrochloric acid onto aluminum
Create aluminum chloride by gassing aluminum with hydrogen chloride at 700 C
Extract lithium from lithium batteries
Create lithium hydride by gassing lithium with hydrogen at 400-500 C
Create lithium aluminum hydride by reacting aluminum chloride with lithium hydride in ether

Volanschemia - 10-4-2016 at 23:39

Wow, that looks like quite the undertaking!
I've never looked into high temperature chemistry myself and definitely wouldn't take that stuff lightly, so kudos for giving it a go!

The Volatile Chemist - 12-4-2016 at 13:51

Thanks J_Sum. Although the competition didn't work out perfect, there seems there will be some very interesting writeups that came out of it - looking forward to them being released (?).

Loptr - 12-4-2016 at 23:40

Quote: Originally posted by JJay

This was my plan:

Distill ether out of starting fluid
Create hydrogen chloride gas by dropping sulfuric acid onto calcium chloride
Create hydrochloric acid by gassing water with hydrogen chloride
Create hydrogen by dropping hydrochloric acid onto aluminum
Create aluminum chloride by gassing aluminum with hydrogen chloride at 700 C
Extract lithium from lithium batteries
Create lithium hydride by gassing lithium with hydrogen at 400-500 C
Create lithium aluminum hydride by reacting aluminum chloride with lithium hydride in ether

It sounds very dangerous. I would like to see this, but also it should be done properly with safety measures present.

JJay - 13-4-2016 at 00:13

If you're making a kilogram of lithium aluminum hydride, it's dangerous. It's not that dangerous if the quantities are small.

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