Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Ethanol in Australia

j_sum1 - 16-12-2015 at 05:02

I came across an interesting product -- part of the Diggers brand:

Bio Flame -- >99% ethanol according to the label.

MSDS
Product Data Sheet

Like methylated spirits and various similar products the MSDS is vague -- >95% ethanol and <5% water. (I found several products with the exact same specifications.) However, the label claims >99% ethanol. There is apparently some denaturing agent in it but I don't know what it is. I have not done a taste test or any other testing but it smells very clean -- not at all bitter and lot more like vodka than regular methylated spirits.

It seemed to me to be a good source of otc ethanol. No doubt it could be cleaned up a bit but is probably as good as I will need for a while. Maybe run it over some molecular sieves to get rid of the last of the water if I need it anhydrous.

Not stocked by Bunnings but it is available in Home Hardware in the barbecue section.
It looks like it is one of those products that might be open to abuse and probably will not be widely stocked.


If anyone has any more information on what the denaturing agent might be then I am interested in knowing. My suspicion is that there is nothing there except a label stating it is denatured.

I thought I'd share.

woelen - 16-12-2015 at 05:39

Such ethanol is nearly free of water, which is important for many applications, but it certainly does contain a denaturing agent. Where I live I can buy anhydrous ethanol, but this contains a certain amount of MEK, which is very hard to separate from the ethanol because of the close boiling points.

NedsHead - 16-12-2015 at 06:00

I've been using the black and gold brand Methylated Spirits believing the MSDS was an accurate account of its composition, 95% ethanol and 5% water, so I just did a taste test and it's as bitter as wormwood tea. looks like I'll be distilling my Methylated Spirits from now on

hissingnoise - 16-12-2015 at 06:20

Quote:
If anyone has any more information on what the denaturing agent might be then I am interested in knowing.

It's denatonium benzoate, I'm told, and, as expected, it tastes thoroughly vile . . .

Detonationology - 16-12-2015 at 06:26

Denatonium benzoate is considered to be the most bitter substance on Earth.

Praxichys - 16-12-2015 at 06:37

If I need really pure ethanol, I go to the store and buy "MEK substitute" which is pure ethyl acetate.

Set up for reflux with a 1L flask and start pouring NaOH beads down the condenser into hot EtOAc. Add about 110% of stoich, keeping the boiling constant (it will exotherm so heating can be removed once about a third of the NaOH is added.) Reflux for about 30 minutes after all the NaOH is in, then let cool, switch to regular distillation, and distill the pure ethanol from the sodium acetate. Dry over sieves.

This assumes that your hardware store has both cheap EtOAc and NaOH. Not sure about AU stores.

HeYBrO - 16-12-2015 at 15:08

Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys  
If I need really pure ethanol, I go to the store and buy "MEK substitute" which is pure ethyl acetate.

Set up for reflux with a 1L flask and start pouring NaOH beads down the condenser into hot EtOAc. Add about 110% of stoich, keeping the boiling constant (it will exotherm so heating can be removed once about a third of the NaOH is added.) Reflux for about 30 minutes after all the NaOH is in, then let cool, switch to regular distillation, and distill the pure ethanol from the sodium acetate. Dry over sieves.

This assumes that your hardware store has both cheap EtOAc and NaOH. Not sure about AU stores.


Thanks for the procedure. Unfortunately, as far as i can tell, the only place to get OTC ethyl acetate in aus is non-acetone nail polish remover which often is mixed with other esters/alcohols. j_sum, there was an eBay supplier that was selling a similar product to what you mention there is a 20 L option available which is much more economical. the ebay description claims it contains >99% ethanol, <1%, 0.2% MIBK and 5 ppm "Denatoium Bensonate" ;P

[Edited on 16-12-2015 by HeYBrO]

j_sum1 - 16-12-2015 at 16:21

Update.
Smells like vodka. Tastes like bitrex.

As far as I know, the only otc source of MEK around here is plumber's pvc cement which must be distilled. (I note that Diggers has it in their product line but I have not seen it in any stores.) Because MEK is not readily available, MEK substitute is also not readily available. So, no EtOAc unfortunately.
Thanks HeYBrO for that ebay link. My bottle of bio flame was half that price (and a five minute walk away.)

So, it seems like that 1% impurity consists of perhaps a little water and some light ketones and a few ppm of denatonium benzoate. All tricky to eliminate completely. For ultra high purity I need to go to a chemical supplier for EtOH or EtOAc. But this is certainly a step up from using "metho". NedsHead, you made me laugh.

ahill - 16-12-2015 at 17:02

..lately I've been using Spirytus Rektyfikowany.

..bit expensive, and 5% water, but readily available OTC, and if everything goes to pot you can drink it !

While illegal, distilling your own from turbo yeast wash is not so hard, but getting it upto 95%, even with vaccuum, is a lot like work.

karlos³ - 17-12-2015 at 02:43

MEK is easy to remove if you just distill the EtOH over NaOH, the MEK will self-condense in an aldol reaction to a higher boiling substance and so the EtOH can easily be freed from the MEK/its condensation product.

Tdep - 17-12-2015 at 05:11

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  

Smells like vodka. Tastes like bitrex.

Pretty sure some of my nights out could be summed up in those words.

But good find, I was looking for something like this to attempt to look into sodium nitronate. So first react the ethanol with sodium metal to remove any water and produce a sodium ethoxide/hydroxide solution in ethanol, then react that with nitromethane. But low water is needed so the ethanol doesn't ignite on addition of the sodium and doesn't ruin the nitronate down the track. I will attempt to find this product to use, there's a Home Hardware around somewhere nearby I believe...

Tdep - 6-1-2016 at 20:40

https://youtu.be/rBM4TdyiNkY

Here is the BioFlame in action with sodium metal. You can see it does react somewhat fast (see ChemPlayer's video for a comparison with lab grade anhydrous ethanol) but for $7.50 it's a great find I think.

NedsHead - 7-1-2016 at 00:44

Did you also find it in Home Hardware Tdep?

Tdep - 7-1-2016 at 05:21

Quote: Originally posted by NedsHead  
Did you also find it in Home Hardware Tdep?

Yep! $7.65. Was the dustiest bottle i've seen though, doesn't seem like a very popular product line.

NedsHead - 7-1-2016 at 05:40

Quote: Originally posted by Tdep  

Yep! $7.65. Was the dustiest bottle i've seen though, doesn't seem like a very popular product line.


Better stock up before it's discontinued