Sciencemadness Discussion Board - ScienceMadness: the Next Generation?

ScienceMadness: the Next Generation?

blogfast25 - 18-1-2016 at 06:34

Why not, from now on and in the coming years, turn SM into a centre of learning (as well as of course a discussion forum, its main purpose)?

By creating a number of educational stickied threads on various chemistry subjects from theories (e.g. “Brønsted–Lowry acid-base theory”) to practical lab techniques (e.g. “practical filtration”) members would have an interactive source of education/information right here.

SM already has a number of posts/threads that rank high in Google and well-formed educational resources would add to these and attract more members.

What say you?

aga - 18-1-2016 at 06:57

Funny. Today i was wondering about a single thread with just detailed and illustrated preparation/procedures.

No discussion possible (therefore spam free) just the actual preps with a formatted title to include the Key words so it can be found easily via google.

e.g.
Phosphoric acid, purification, calcium oxide, sulphuric acid
Phosphoric acid, synthesis, <list of reagents>
<insert name here>, purification, recrystallisation

add in your idea and we get :-

Brønsted–Lowry, acid-base theory
Brønsted–Lowry, acid-base example systhesis
(would need a subtitle or a unique thread linking to the above detailing what the product & reagents were)

Kind of a Vogel NG 2016.

The difficulty of indexing and searching had me thinking of a separate website altogether, however a single locked & sticky thread here would be far better - let google do the indexing.

The synths could be submitted a a normal post, discussed, verified, edited etc then the 1 complete post snipped, joined and retitled (hopefully that is not difficult to do).

Finding a detailed and illustrated method to achieve something would be enormously useful, also much quicker than rifling through a half-metre high stack of lab notes.

diggafromdover - 18-1-2016 at 07:39

Let me refine it a bit further - behind each prep, include links as footnotes, and crosslink related procedures on youtube, kanacademy and prepchem. Be the LinkenUberDump of synthesis

hissingnoise - 18-1-2016 at 07:41

Quote:

What say you?

Go for it I say, blogfast ─ scimad is already on its way to becoming something of a learning centre and accelerating the process can only be a good thing and besides, just about everyone can benefit from a well-ordered section on lab techniques . . .

hyfalcon - 18-1-2016 at 08:42

To learn is why I originally came here. More of the same can only be a good thing.

gdflp - 18-1-2016 at 08:49

I think that it's a great idea, it will help continue some of the current long running threads we have such as the Quantum Mechanics/Organic Chemistry thread.

I, for one, would be willing to volunteer my time both in contributing material and helping to organize and verify the quality of the material posted.

aga - 18-1-2016 at 09:33

This would tie in nicely with zts's Wiki pages.

Crosslink between this 'All Chemistry Knowledge' thread and the Wiki, and vice versa.

I'll happily photo and document some synths for gdflp to verify the quality of

Praxichys - 18-1-2016 at 09:37

Do it.

I'm always looking for video ideas for my YouTube channel, so I would be happy to volunteer as a verification laboratory for syntheses - a "synthesis checker". I also have many existing videos that I would be happy to provide writeups for if it would help. Feel free to use any of the content on the Topical Compendium of EM.

blogfast25 - 18-1-2016 at 09:49

Quote: Originally posted by gdflp

I, for one, would be willing to volunteer my time both in contributing material and helping to organize and verify the quality of the material posted.

Which brings me to my next 'question''.

Help! Volunteers wanted!

elementcollector1 - 18-1-2016 at 09:54

I'd be happy to both contribute to and read the results of this endeavor. Hit me up if you need any help.

aga - 18-1-2016 at 10:03

I think that adding in quality utoob links would also be excellent.

OK. Need to get the ball rolling i guess.

All it really needs to begin is a single post explaining and documenting a process, principle or whatever, optionally with photos, links to utoob, an SM thread, a Wiki entry, other references.

If it's good enough, it gets a Title formatted for google to find it easily and made sticky.

We ask the mods nicely to Lock that thread and make it sticky.

All following submissions get added to that thread by a mod, which being locked, cannot get all shitted up with random crap from users/abusers.

Thread needs a name. How about 'Know it All' ?

[Edited on 18-1-2016 by aga]

blogfast25 - 18-1-2016 at 10:12

Quote: Originally posted by aga

If it's good enough, it gets a Title formatted for google to find it easily and made sticky.

We ask the mods nicely to Lock that thread and make it sticky.

All following submissions get added to that thread by a mod, which being locked, cannot get all shitted up with random crap from users/abusers.

I prefer fully open threads, like the QM/QC thread, this way educators can organise assignments, quizzes , 'exams', 'cliff hangers' etc to keep it interactive and sticky. Occasional spam/rubbish can be moderated out by mods. Modest amounts of silly banter aren't a problem to me.

[Edited on 18-1-2016 by blogfast25]

gdflp - 18-1-2016 at 10:21

Now the inevitable question arises, where to place it? It could go in Chemistry in General, but then any orgo info is misplaced. Perhaps that's the best place for it though. Any thoughts?

blogfast25 - 18-1-2016 at 10:28

Quote: Originally posted by gdflp

Now the inevitable question arises, where to place it? It could go in Chemistry in General, but then any orgo info is misplaced. Perhaps that's the best place for it though. Any thoughts?

I think that would sort itself out. Orga to orga, basically... Some of it could go in Beginnings, I don't see that as a problem, as much of it will be addressing beginners.

blogfast25 - 18-1-2016 at 10:36

In any case I volunteer for:

* acids and bases (BL theory)
* solubility products/ionic solubility and related phase diagrams
* general equilibrium theory, collision theory, Arrhenius and related concepts

[Edited on 18-1-2016 by blogfast25]

aga - 18-1-2016 at 11:03

Chem in General fits best.

Banter can be done in the threads surrounding the Single post that ends up in the 'All Spark' thread (we still need to think of a name for it).

Banter in the QM thread is great, although i'm 100% certain that a lot of it would not appeal to a visitor looking for say Enthalpy explained.

On the other hand it would be a USP in that it would show real people were discussing it rather than just a concise statement of facts.

Oh, Polvers, i got in just after bloggers, so 20% on advertising revenues ok ?

blogfast25 - 18-1-2016 at 11:21

Quote: Originally posted by aga

Chem in General fits best.

Banter can be done in the threads surrounding the Single post that ends up in the 'All Spark' thread (we still need to think of a name for it).

I don't see the point in merging multiple subjects into one single thread, if that's what you mean. It'd be like merging almost randomly some existing threads.

Also, when it comes to Google, their bots tend to rank individual relevant posts, not threads. To help with ranking, each post can be given a relevant title (e.g. 'Weak Acids Titration').

Well-written, informative and relevant posts tend also to get linked to by those who find and like them, which in turn boosts their PageRank.

What could be useful is to create a meta-thread that simply references all 'educational threads' as a kind of table of content of that content. A site map of those parts of the site.

[Edited on 18-1-2016 by blogfast25]

Bert - 18-1-2016 at 12:06

Ask Polverone-

You do know about the existing publication & pre publication areas?

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/forumdisplay.php?fid=20

http://www.sciencemadness.org/member_publications/

blogfast25 - 18-1-2016 at 12:34

Quote: Originally posted by Bert

You do know about the existing publication & pre publication areas?

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/forumdisplay.php?fid=20

http://www.sciencemadness.org/member_publications/

Yes. And some of these proposed threads could be referenced there for sure.

But I'm specifically referring to educational threads on various specific 'theoretical' subjects, explained with the beginner in mind, as well as threads on various generic separation/work-up/lab procedures.

aga - 18-1-2016 at 12:47

Prepublication is pretty much It, except it is vulnerable to polluting comments.

Like or not, in this age PDFs don't hack it as well as a video or a photo.

Attention spans are now much shorter then the, er, the thingy, the whatever i said, or he said, and there's a Sparrow video ! Amazing. I liked the video of the dog on a skateboard.

We need zts to weigh in here.

Old farts (=30+) are no experts on current thinking.

For all those moaning about a mod not being at least 100 yet, here is an area where he is far far better qualified than at least i am, and i supect many others.

As a Venture it definitely Needs input from the SM community for the Content.

Exactly HOW it is presented is a question.

Pre-pub does not seem to rank much on google.

[Edited on 18-1-2016 by aga]

j_sum1 - 18-1-2016 at 14:38

Maybe a tutorials subforum. You start a tutorial with an appropriate title. Post your stuff. Manage questions and answers. Post quizzes or whatever if you like.

Some tutorials on elementary techniques as well as elementary theories would be good too. How to set up a distillation rig. Recrystallisation. Finding melting point. Titration. That kind of thing.

For preparations, perhaps also include a submission to www.prepchem.com
I am finding this a great resource.

My two cents -- prepublication is under-used. Mostly because the standard is higher than many can attain. There is some stunning reading in there. It is an eventual goal for me to come up with something novel that is worthy of posting there. I have an idea brewing... one that I think will be highly useful to a lot of users if I can pull it off. I doubt it truly makes the grade for prepub though. But I would not hesitate to put it in a "tutorials and preparations" subforum.

Maybe as a next step, someone could compile a list of current threads that would fit nicely into a new subforum. Then we can put the idea by Polverone and he can shift them there. If this is followed by a number of good simple tutorial threads and a couple of preps then we would have a really solid start.

[edit] clarification.
See Blogfast25's question below.

[Edited on 18-1-2016 by j_sum1]

blogfast25 - 18-1-2016 at 14:50

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1

Maybe as a next step, someone could compile a list of current threads that would fit nicely into a new forum. Then we can put the idea by Polverone and he can shift them there. If this is followed by a number of good simple tutorial threads and a couple of preps then we would have a really solid start.

New forum? That's not my idea at all.

Or did you mean parking the threads in new subforum like:

Fundamentals > Tutorials

Is that what you're suggesting?

j_sum1 - 18-1-2016 at 14:53

Sorry. Subforum.

blogfast25 - 18-1-2016 at 14:56

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1

Sorry. Subforum.

Oh... OK.

aga - 18-1-2016 at 15:04

For this to work it needs to be simple, with pictures/video and easy for google to index.

Complicate it in any way and it will fail.

blogfast25 - 18-1-2016 at 15:21

Quote: Originally posted by aga

For this to work it needs to be simple, with pictures/video and easy for google to index.

Complicate it in any way and it will fail.

In what way is anyone trying to complicate it?

A sub-forum would be nice but it's not imperative there be one right now. It could also be created after a few tutorial threads have been 'completed', these could then be migrated in the dedicated, new sub-forum.

RogueRose - 18-1-2016 at 20:48

I'm really interested in this. I know one of the main things I look at on wiki is how the element or compound was discovered, how it was first isolated, first synthesized and how it is produced commercially and or in a lab setting.

What I have found (which I find pretty odd) is that some "how it's made" is removed from certain compounds as they were once listed and weeks/months later, certain parts have been removed. I can't remember which compounds this has happened with, I know AmmNit is one for sure, but there are a lot of others.

I think one of the best ideas would be some kind of a diagram (3D-ish pyramid??) of "how to get here" for specific compounds like how to make XXX showing combining A, B & C to get X. Then maybe show how to make A, B and C. Listing all practical ways would be ideal. I know that is a lot of work, but compounds could be assigned to participating members who keep that compound updated.

IDK, just a thought on what could be useful and helpful to members.

Hawkguy - 19-1-2016 at 13:40

In my ideal world, the science madness preparations would be organized like how Khan academy was (or used to be). Starting off with basic preparations and background, you can follow branches to create more complex molecules, as well as diving deeper into the world of chemistry. For example, you can start at Calcium Carbonate, learn about it, make Calcium Oxide. he Calcium Oxide then goes into Cyanamide, etc. Hopefully this makes sense, because no matter how badly I express it I think its a good idea to connect the preparations in a linear way.

Polverone - 19-1-2016 at 19:04

Forum threads are not the best format for long-term collaboration and polishing material.

I think the wiki would be better suited: http://www.sciencemadness.org/smwiki/index.php/Main_Page

Send me a U2U if you want a wiki account. You need to be a registered forum user with a public posting history to get edit-access for the wiki.

[Edited on 1-20-2016 by Polverone]

blogfast25 - 19-1-2016 at 19:43

Quote: Originally posted by Polverone

Forum threads are not the best format for long-term collaboration and polishing material.

I think the wiki would be better suited: http://www.sciencemadness.org/smwiki/index.php/Main_Page

Send me a U2U if you want a wiki account. You need to be a registered forum user with a public posting history to get edit-access for the wiki.

[Edited on 1-20-2016 by Polverone]

My main concern about the SM Wiki is that it's underused, mainly because it's poorly advertised.

How many here know of its existence or know how/where to access it, off the top of their heads?

Texium - 19-1-2016 at 21:01

Yeah, the wiki does need to be easier to access. A link on the main page of sciencemadness.org would be good, and if possible, a link from the forum itself would likely get the most attention.

I can also create wiki accounts, if anyone else would like to join.

The Volatile Chemist - 20-1-2016 at 18:48

I didn't get a chance to read all of this thread, but I agree, SM could use a bit more shaping up. Perhaps stricter policies on 'chatter' vs actual contribution, at least i the starting of new threads. And more thread combining. I know I am still a 'useless poster' sometimes. Just a suggestion.

blogfast25 - 20-1-2016 at 19:07

Quote: Originally posted by zts16

Yeah, the wiki does need to be easier to access. A link on the main page of sciencemadness.org would be good, and if possible, a link from the forum itself would likely get the most attention.

I can also create wiki accounts, if anyone else would like to join.

I'll gladly join but the problem of visibility really needs addressing first. While SM Wiki posts are undoubtedly indexed by Google, I see it very much as an SM internal resource, although in time it may grow into something more, of course.

Is there a problem/objection to creating a 'Fundamentals > ScienceMadness Wiki' link/sub-folder?

Texium - 20-1-2016 at 19:09

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

Quote: Originally posted by zts16

I will talk to Polverone about it.

blogfast25 - 20-1-2016 at 19:18

Quote: Originally posted by zts16

I will talk to Polverone about it.

Since as I assume The Elder Smurf approved/supported the Wiki initiative it would seem pointless not to promote and develop it further.

I totally smurf this message.

The Volatile Chemist - 21-1-2016 at 05:40

After reading the thread, I'd think the forum itself isn't the place for such preps, but the wiki could definitely use promotion. Not that mass-U2U-ing is exactly needed, but a little of work would help (not at I have helped much).
That prepchem.com site looks cool too, though focusing on our own projects is probably best.

[Edited on 1-21-2016 by The Volatile Chemist]

blogfast25 - 21-1-2016 at 07:53

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist

After reading the thread, I'd think the forum itself isn't the place for such preps, [...]

I'm not really talking about prep threads but rather about theory threads like the QM/QC and the Acid Base theory threads.

MrHomeScientist - 21-1-2016 at 08:16

Yes for some reason there seems to be confusion as to the original intent of this. Blogfast wants to create general chemistry tutorial threads about general chemistry subjects, not specific compound preparations. The latter is what the Prepublication forum is for. General interest threads on acid/base theory, ionic vs covalent bonds & compounds, calculating reaction enthalpy, etc. etc. would be very helpful, especially for beginners. Since I'm mostly self-taught, refresher threads on these basic concepts and theory would be great! Most of my knowledge is on the practical side.

The Volatile Chemist - 21-1-2016 at 08:38

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist

After reading the thread, I'd think the forum itself isn't the place for such preps, [...]

I'm not really talking about prep threads but rather about theory threads like the QM/QC and the Acid Base theory threads.

Then go for it. I guess I could make some of these too (If that's what you were asking help for), but I don't think I would start any of these, unless you wanted one on using OpenBabel.
But, if people who have more practical or experiential knowledge than I want to start threads on this topic, please do, they would be much appreciated. I'd say it'd be great to have such a set of resources available.

blogfast25 - 21-1-2016 at 09:15

What is 'OpenBabel'?

The Volatile Chemist - 21-1-2016 at 09:47

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

What is 'OpenBabel'?

Software/libraries for converting chemical files and doing analysis on chemical structures. For a smiles formula, it figures out a structure for the molecule and reports a list of atoms in the molecule, their locations in space relative to the center of the molecule, an electron density mesh, etc. More of just fun stuff for amateurs, not too practical except for melting point prediction.

blogfast25 - 21-1-2016 at 10:11

I think a thread on using that would be very useful, seriously! Totally supported.

The Volatile Chemist - 28-1-2016 at 08:28

OK, perhaps tonight I'll right one up in model of some of the ones already made. Glad I can contribute something.

crystal grower - 21-2-2016 at 13:08

Great idea, keep up the excelent work.
I would be willing to help with something if I can.

[Edited on 21-2-2016 by crystal grower]

The Volatile Chemist - 22-2-2016 at 16:30

Aaand sorry I forgot about the open-babel thing. I'll write it up soon, but I was sick today and might be too busy with schoolwork tomorrow.

blogfast25 - 22-2-2016 at 19:27

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist

Aaand sorry I forgot about the open-babel thing. I'll write it up soon, but I was sick today and might be too busy with schoolwork tomorrow.

Ok, whenever you have the time. It's important to educate even hobbyists about 21th Century information methods, re Chemistry. That too is how we can progress, as individuals, as a community and as a knowledge hub (SM site).

Ta.

[Edited on 23-2-2016 by blogfast25]