Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Red Oxygen

MineMan - 16-4-2016 at 12:07

Hello All,

I am frankly tired of reading papers where they have found ways to increase the energy of Al-HMX mixtures by only 7% with the addition of enormous efforts (or expensive boron powder). I keep on thinking there has to be something out there with more energy. Maybe there is but it is not a organic explosive.

But...

Apparently oxygen forms a meta-stable solid when compressed to 1.4 million psi at room temp. I would think the resulting O8 solid would have bonds similar to diamonds... and not react on contact with a reducing agent? O8 would make one heck of an energetic...

A few things that seem fishy though. First the apparent lack of scientific papers on red oxygen. Second, the pressures need to form are near that of diamond, one would think with subducting plates there would be O8 gemstones...?

Thoughts and ideas much appreciated!!

DraconicAcid - 16-4-2016 at 12:16

O8 would have the same structure as sulphur.....I can see it forming at a hundred thousand atmospheres, but how metastable is it when you take the pressure off?

As for forming it as a mineral, it's far easier for carbon to get trapped underground and subjected to huge pressures than it is for a gas like oxygen.

MineMan - 16-4-2016 at 12:23

Draconic, I feel like an idiot... your right, why would gaseous oxygen be trapped at 1.4 million feet below the surface (1 psi per foot of rock).

Huh... sometimes we (me at least) overlook the obvious.

aga - 16-4-2016 at 12:25

Hmm.

j_sum1 - 16-4-2016 at 15:56

This is less interesting as a practical energetic substance and more interesting for the discovery of another allotrope of oxygen.
I can see it forming in some gas giant planets at deep levels.
I can't see anyone putting a sample in their element collection.

You say it's red? That's kind of cool.

Canerican - 16-4-2016 at 17:30

CO is another gas that has a meta-stable solid phase, but it forms at a comparatively reasonable 5-7 GPa (725-1000 kpsi). Because this is within the range of pressures achievable with a piston-cylinder apparatus, macroscopic quantities of polymeric CO have been synthesized and detonated.

According to the paper I attached, polymeric CO is orange-yellow, with a density of about 1.7 g/cc (0.06 lb/in^3). It decomposes steadily while releasing CO2, and at an increased rate when exposed to light. After being exposed to air for several days, it becomes somewhat sticky. The real fun is in the energy density, which was found to vary between 1 MJ/kg and 8 MJ/kg :o

When the CO is detonated, it produces large quantities of CO2 and leaves behind a small residue of glassy carbon. Two observations were made which I believe do not bode well for the sensitivity of CO:


Also, don't read the last sentence of the paper :P

Attachment: Polymeric CO.pdf (484kB)
This file has been downloaded 554 times

blogfast25 - 16-4-2016 at 17:49

Quote: Originally posted by Canerican  

Also, don't read the last sentence of the paper :P
Quote:
Furthermore, p-CO could be synthesized in carbon foam
to reduce its sensitivity, similar to the way highly sensitive TNT was
developed into dynamite.


I read it and I lived. Phew. :P

PHILOU Zrealone - 17-4-2016 at 03:49

Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
Hello All,

I am frankly tired of reading papers where they have found ways to increase the energy of Al-HMX mixtures by only 7% with the addition of enormous efforts (or expensive boron powder). I keep on thinking there has to be something out there with more energy. Maybe there is but it is not a organic explosive.

But...

Apparently oxygen forms a meta-stable solid when compressed to 1.4 million psi at room temp. I would think the resulting O8 solid would have bonds similar to diamonds... and not react on contact with a reducing agent? O8 would make one heck of an energetic...

A few things that seem fishy though. First the apparent lack of scientific papers on red oxygen. Second, the pressures need to form are near that of diamond, one would think with subducting plates there would be O8 gemstones...?

Thoughts and ideas much appreciated!!

Interesting idea, I would try with 18O instead of 16O to gain even more density.

Maybe that by subjecting HMX itself to 1.4 million psi you would get another form of HMX with a higher density than the one with VOD >9100 m/s (beta modification).
This of course if the overpressed HMX is not dead pressed.

More realistically I would mix HMX stoechiometrically with over-oxygenated dense HE oxydisers like NH4ClO4, N2H5ClO4, (O2N)3C-C(NO2)3, HONH3NO3, HONH3ClO4, or even others less or unstudied/unmade ones.

nitro-genes - 17-4-2016 at 07:06

Instead of carbon foams, maybe a silicon based matrix similar to aerogels may provide even more stability for polymerized CO, functional groups of the matrix can be altered using chemical modifications to maximise stability. The CO might also act as the supercritical solvent as well, needed for solvent removal after forming the aerogel.

PHILOU Zrealone - 17-4-2016 at 09:17

Quote:
Furthermore, p-CO could be synthesized in carbon foam
to reduce its sensitivity, similar to the way highly sensitive TNT was developed into dynamite.


Hahaha!
Dynamite is NG based not TNT based...
NG is indeed absorbed into kieselghur, wood dust, carbon dust, NH4NO3, ... to make dynamite or related.

Again a scientific writing with stupid mistakes...

PHILOU Zrealone - 17-4-2016 at 09:22

They should try to compress N3-O-N=C=N-O-N3, (N3-)2C=N-NO2 (CN8O2) putative perfect OB HE molecules :D

MineMan - 17-4-2016 at 10:37

1.4 million PSI is quite do able I believe. That is pretty close to the 1000kpsi for CO. Thank you for sharing the CO paper. 1-8MJ/kg is not that impressive, with PETN having 5.8MJ/Kg.

I was thinking that O8 mixed with aluminum and diesel (or the such ) would put everything else to shame. Hmm I would call it OFO, lol.

Philou, huh, that interesting, maybe HMX could under go a phase change or alltrope at higher pressures resulting in a denser product?

hissingnoise - 17-4-2016 at 12:11
Quote:

Again a scientific writing with stupid mistakes...


There is military dynamite PHILOU!

It's based on RDX and TNT and contains no NGl . . .

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 17-4-2016 at 14:04

Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid  
.....I can see it forming at a hundred thousand atmospheres, but how metastable is it when you take the pressure off? ......


I think this sums up OP's question.

PHILOU Zrealone - 17-4-2016 at 14:21

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  

Quote:

Again a scientific writing with stupid mistakes...


There is military dynamite PHILOU!

It's based on RDX and TNT and contains no NGl . . .


OK assuming you are right...if they do:
-->Why would they use carbon foam in those "military dynamites" (TNT paraffined/waxed cardboard sticks)?
RDX and TNT are solids so not to suck up the liquid like for NG dynamites...
-->To reduce further the OB in even negativer regios?

I think they confused NG and TNT and wrote a mistake.

Canerican - 17-4-2016 at 16:38

Quote:
1.4 million PSI is quite do able I believe. That is pretty close to the 1000kpsi for CO.


It seems close, but 1 million psi is near the limit of what can be achieved with simpler technology like mechanical presses and tungsten carbide pistons. The solution would be to somehow lower the pressure required to make oxygen reach a metastable solid phase.

This paper discusses the use of H2 to catalyze the transformation of N2 to a metastable solid phase. The interesting thing is that H2 and N2 alone will only form metastable solids at hundreds of GPa, but these researchers were able to make some phases which were stable down to 500 MPa. If a correspondingly suitable catalyst were to be found for O2...

I think this is a very unique field-almost like metallurgy, but with gases. The reduction in pressure caused by the addition of an "alloying" gas makes me think of a eutectoid point, but in a system where the y-axis is pressure instead of temperature.

Attachment: Metastable N2H2.pdf (774kB)
This file has been downloaded 437 times

Praxichys - 8-8-2016 at 11:57

200 years from now, amateur experimenters will have long forgotten acetone peroxide and will instead be found gingerly mixing powdered solid oxygen with diamond nano-dust, because only professionals can get solid nitrogen.