Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Fluorine for Laser

SupaVillain - 21-6-2016 at 19:25

If I get 5 grams of copper (II) fluoride and heat it to 950C (which produces fluorine gas), how much of this gas do I get?

Also, I have vacuum equipment, (through UHV) will placing this in vacuum to lower boiling point also lower the temperature it would need to release the fluorine?

DON'T THINK YOU KNOW MORE ABOUT SAFETY THAN I DO. I can program servomotors to remotely actuate this if I must.
Argon Fluoride lasers are used in 193nm immersion lithography

I understand it is difficult to contain fluorine once at such a temperature.

[Edited on 22-6-2016 by SupaVillain]

[Edited on 22-6-2016 by SupaVillain]

DoctorOfPhilosophy - 21-6-2016 at 19:53

Quote: Originally posted by SupaVillain  
If I get 5 grams of copper (II) fluoride and heat it to 950C (which produces fluorine gas), how much of this gas do I get?

I find it hard to believe that it decomposes to fluorine gas. In fact, I'm certain it doesn't. What's your source?

Quote: Originally posted by SupaVillain  
Also, I have vacuum equipment, (through UHV) will placing this in vacuum to lower boiling point also lower the temperature it would need to release the fluorine?

You will damage your very expensive UHV setup.

Quote: Originally posted by SupaVillain  
DON'T THINK YOU KNOW MORE ABOUT SAFETY THAN I DO. I can program servomotors to remotely actuate this if I must.
Argon Fluoride lasers are used in 193nm immersion lithography

I get that it bothers you when people tell you not to do stuff because it's not safe. I still recommend you listen to what others have to say about safety though. Taking advice from others is basic safety.

If you really want to risk your life with fluorine gas, you might be able to buy it 10% diluted in argon (they sell it where I live). I wouldn't suggest it though. Can't you make a different laser?

Volanschemia - 21-6-2016 at 20:04

Quote: Originally posted by DoctorOfPhilosophy  

I find it hard to believe that it decomposes to fluorine gas. In fact, I'm certain it doesn't. What's your source?

I think the OP is referring to Cobalt(III) Fluoride? That does decompose I think, giving off F2 gas.

DoctorOfPhilosophy - 21-6-2016 at 20:12

Although that sounds vaguely familiar, this paper says that thermal decomposition of salts cannot yield significant fluorine because the temperatures required would cause the fluorine to react with any reasonable reactor material. It does propose an alternative chemical means of preparing fluorine at more significant yield, but looks complicated.

Edit: ok so manganese(IV) fluoride does decompose to fluorine in that source above, that's probably the salt you were thinking of

[Edited on 22-6-2016 by DoctorOfPhilosophy]

SupaVillain - 21-6-2016 at 20:22


I find it hard to believe that it decomposes to fluorine gas. In fact, I'm certain it doesn't. What's your source?
the fourth post on this second page of the above link


You will damage your very expensive UHV setup.

I can use my pumps to take a plumbed glass pipe or bottle down to 10^-4, after putting the copper fluoride inside. Argon can be leaked in and fluorine can then be evaporated. An induction coil can bring heat to be more concentrated upon the copper compound, rather than using a flame. .....Actually a smaller plumbed glass container could hold the copper fluorine and then be closed off and disconnected, leaving only desired vacuum and gases inside a tube.


Taking advice from others is basic safety.

Yes, but you see I did not come here until I had done hours of research over the whole topic, and seen videos of others handling the chemical, and surviving their activities. Such is the proper way rather than only being educated through the warnings of an online forum. I was astonished to see this individual in such a lack of PPE with fluorine.

There are large projects I have longed to complete but have not, due simply to a temporary lack of adequate safety measures.

[Edited on 22-6-2016 by SupaVillain]

DoctorOfPhilosophy - 21-6-2016 at 20:50

To quote from the thread you linked to


To preface: I am a fluorine chemist with ~8 years of handling HF, F2, Metal fluorides, XeF2, etc etc etc etc.

There is so much inaccurate information in this thread that I'm not even going to start to address, instead I'll focus on the posters question.

CuF2 --950C--> Cu + F2

While on paper this may be possible, feasibly it is not. You will not be able to find a reactor that is stable to fluorine at these temperatures. Graphite will react. Teflon will degrade. Even corrosive resistant metals and alloys such nickle 201, inconel, monel, etc will react and flake away.

HF/F2 is dangerous...but it can be handled safely. Oddly enough, in my corresponences with docters who treat HF burns, the group of people who most frequently are admitted and treated for HF burns are people who have fancy expensive rims on their cars. The cleaners for these aluminum rims has HF on it and they don't read the warning label and don't wear gloves.

I guess your question is, does doing the reaction in a vacuum lower the temperature enough to make is feasible? My educated guess is no, but if you're going to test it, be careful and good luck!

The guy in the video is not wearing a mask, but even if he did I'm not sure it would help him much against fluorine. I've caught a whiff of HF 50% and it wasn't pleasant, but I haven't suffered any obvious harm yet, as far as I can tell.

[Edited on 22-6-2016 by DoctorOfPhilosophy]

[Edited on 22-6-2016 by DoctorOfPhilosophy]

woelen - 21-6-2016 at 23:47

CuF2 certainly will not decompose to Cu and F2 at 950 C. Maybe, just maybe, you can get it to decompose to CuF and F2 if you throw enough heat at it.

CoF3 indeed can be used to make elemental fluorine. It decomposes to CoF2 and F2. It requires a temperature of 600 C or so.

SupaVillain - 22-6-2016 at 00:34

Well the manganese (IV) fluoride might be ideal because it makes a nonreactive powder but it is not available anywhere that I know of. CoF3 it is then. Only problem is that I will need to keep it desiccated and dry to avoid generating HF. I need the tiniest little pinch that makes all the difference apparently. "Gas mixture: 2.5 t F2, 75 t Ar, 2300 t Ne". (diagram)

Thank you for your help. These links might help others looking for the same thing via search engines.

Tsjerk - 22-6-2016 at 03:20

You have equipment that can handle F2 at 6000C but you don't know that the substance you talk about does not liberate F2.... Still you mention ''DON'T THINK YOU KNOW MORE ABOUT SAFETY THAN I DO. ''.

Good that you CAPS LOCKED it, otherwise I probably wouldn't have understand.

phlogiston - 22-6-2016 at 04:16

Be sure to report back your results, you would be the first forum member to make elemental fluorine as far as I can tell, and that is a pretty good accomplishment.

Also, please do not forget to include a writeup of your method for making Co(III)fluoride without using elemental fluorine.

woelen - 22-6-2016 at 07:33

CoF3 is a nasty compound. I have 10 grams of it and it is extremely reactive and only can be stored in an ampoule for extended periods of time. The inside of the ampoule is etched and becomes opaque but the ampoule survives.

ParadoxChem126 - 22-6-2016 at 07:51

Luckily for the OP cobalt fluoride appears to be available on eBay for the mere price of $70 per 25g :D

This probably isn't going to work. Assuming you manage to produce some amount of fluorine gas, you probably won't be able to build a useable laser from it. You will have to build everything from fused quartz, as normal glass absorbs deep UV (the laser operates at 193 nm). Also, I'm fairly certain that fluorine will react with normal glass anyway, let alone at high temperatures. Using a torch and heating the glass itself is unavoidable because you eventually have to melt and seal the optical cavity.

Assuming again that you have the facilities and experience to successfully carry out quartz glassblowing (i.e. high temperature torches, annealing oven, etc.), you probably won't be able to create an atmosphere which will function properly as a laser. I'm not an expert with these argon fluoride lasers, but a quick search on the web shows that the operating gases are contained at high pressures within the cavity. Thus, you need to devise a way to compress your argon-fluorine mixture from a vacuum to high pressure. Also, the ratio of the gases is another important parameter in other gas laser systems, so I assume it holds true for argon fluoride lasers as well. You need to find a way to have precise mixture control at very high pressures, which is pretty much not feasible in an amateur setting.

Amateur laser building is no simple feat. I recommend you first build another easier laser, perhaps a helium neon laser. Honestly, the actual production of fluorine seems like a miniscule task in the grand scheme of your laser plans.

You will also run into problems trying to induction-heat solid CoF3. It is not electrically conductive until it is molten, so eddy currents cannot be induced. I wouldn't risk your expensive vacuum equipment, and it is not likely you would have much success with this unless you have the aforementioned abilities and materials.

careysub - 22-6-2016 at 08:28

Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
CuF2 certainly will not decompose to Cu and F2 at 950 C. Maybe, just maybe, you can get it to decompose to CuF and F2 if you throw enough heat at it.

CoF3 indeed can be used to make elemental fluorine. It decomposes to CoF2 and F2. It requires a temperature of 600 C or so.

Hmm. This raises the possibility in my mind of making a fluorine element ampoule by sealing a small amount of CoF3 in a quartz tube under vacuum, then heating to 600 C.

DoctorOfPhilosophy - 22-6-2016 at 08:36

Would it not react again as soon as you stopped heating to 600C?

On the feasibility of building such a device in general

SupaVillain, your excimer laser project intrigues me so I did some reading. Looks like the laser cavity can be built of a stainless steel tube with calcium fluoride windows, which are only $90 per piece. Electrodes run the length of the tube, so you'll need to suspend them on insulators. This source says they use metal and ceramic for the construction, probably Al2O3 insulators, such as these (see patent below).

The excimer laser needs high pressure, but not too bad, about 6 bar absolute (source). It says here 99.9% of the gas is neon buffer, and seals are metal, but it seems suspicious.

This source sounds more realistic:

F2 (0.2%)
Rare noble gas (2%)
Neon buffer (balance)

According to this patent, tin coated Inconel®-718 is a good material for seals, but Viton seals are OK too. About the electrical feedthroughs:


Cathode 18 and each of the 15 feedthrough conductors carrying peak voltages in the range of 16 kv to 30 kv must be insulated from the metal surfaces of enclosure 10 which is at ground potential. Because of the corrosive F2 environment inside the chamber only certain high purity ceramic insulators such as high purity A2lO3 [sic] can be used for the portion of the feedthrough assemblies exposed to the gas environment.

MDC sells alumina HV feedthroughs.

About your original question though, just buy excimer laser gas. It won't be cheap but at least you eliminate a major variable from an already extreme engineering challenge. Maybe you can get some sponsors or something?

On obtaining the fluorine

Ok so I have a new idea for your laser. Attach a sidearm to the laser cavity with a heated boat containing CoF3. Fill laser with other gasses to required pressure and seal the chamber. Heat the CoF3 and equilibrium shifts toward F2. At the desired percentage of F2 (ie. when the laser starts working), stop increasing the temperature. To service the cavity, cool the sidearm, equilibrium shifts toward CoF3. Once it's totally cold it should be more safe to open the tube.

Assuming we need F2 at 0.2% and 6 bar, that's a partial pressure of 12 mbar. The laser cavity has to be big, for reasons discussed below, so let's say 1 litre. Ideal gas law says ~0.5 mmol of F2 (, so if our equilibrium is 2CoF3 <=> 2CoF2 + F2, we need about 1 mmol of CoF3 (116 mg) to convert to fluorine. If you buy 25g of CoF3 on eBay, then only 0.464% needs to convert to F2. Since your target concentration is only 0.2%, this does seem plausible.

The reason the cavity has to be big is because after each discharge, the laser gas needs to recover in the dead space of the cavity. In the commercial laser they use a cage blower along the whole length of the cavity to keep the gas flowing past the spark gap. A simpler solution is to use convection at the expense of lowered pulse repetition rates. Heat the bottom of the cavity and cool the top to create a flow. The recovery time can be on the order of 10^-1 seconds so ignoring this requirement and building a very narrow tube just big enough for the electrodes will give you very poor pulse rates.

The main challenge with this method is that a lot of fluorine will be consumed after initial startup due to the internal components being passivated. That will leave you with a lot of CoF2 which is not good for your equilibrium. A possible solution is to make a larger side arm of the same design to generate fluorine for initial passivation. Heat the passivation sidearm as high as possible and after some time, cool down to consume excess F2. Then seal off the sidearm from the system entirely to prevent remaining CoF2 from consuming F2 produced later.

[Edited on 22-6-2016 by DoctorOfPhilosophy]

[Edited on 22-6-2016 by DoctorOfPhilosophy]

careysub - 22-6-2016 at 10:33

Quote: Originally posted by DoctorOfPhilosophy  
Would it not react again as soon as you stopped heating to 600C?

My guess is partially, depending on the system equilibrium. To put it another way, how efficient a fluorine scavenger is CoF2 in a CoF3/CoF2 mixture?

I expect to form CoF3, a substantial partial pressure of F2 and an excess would be used. In this case recombination is occurring with a stoichiometric ratio, and a residual very low F2 partial pressure.

Also - apparently you can cool quartz tubes from 600 C to room temperature by dropping them into water without having them crack. Such rapid cooling would tend to suppress recombination.

[Edited on 22-6-2016 by careysub]

Dr.Bob - 22-6-2016 at 11:37

I worked in a fluorine chemical company for a few years, long ago. So there is a member who worked with fluorine and lived to tell, but that was with the correct equipment. We used CoF2, which was heated with fluorine to generate CoF3 inside a Monel reactor, then other materials were passed through the CoF3 to fluorinate them. So yes, that is a source of F2, but not a trivial one, as every leak generates a fire or toxic event. The waste HF, F2 and all other effluent was also put through a large acid scrubber, so that we would not pollute the air or kill our neighbors. They do seem to appreciate that.

Doing F2 chemistry without the proper equipment and materials will be tough, it corrodes many things, and vacuum pumps are likely one of them. If you can get the F2 in argon mixture made up, it will almost certainly work much better. But you can always try it, just read some older books on the subject if you can, they are from the era when people had to cob together things and use crazy ways to do things.

SupaVillain - 22-6-2016 at 13:37

For Fluorine Generation:
I did not expect to get so many replies, I honestly thought this thread was over and only popped back in to add some other fluorine generator info that I accidentally found in the excimer laser googling I was doing.

Larned B. Asprey's Asprey salt...above 300C according to bottom-most link.... 2[K2NiF6 * KF](s) = 2K3NiF6(s) + F2(g)
(info here -

and here applied to lasers

For the excimer laser application
Thank you for the support in calculation and in informing me that high pressures are reached. Perhaps the lasing glass and electrical feedthroughs could be made of sodium silicate/water glass. I did a bunch of research a while back in finding that it is near zero outgassing, dielectric(at least as much as plate glass), and very strong when cured. I was aware of the calcium fluoride "windows" being expensive, as sells them for about $79USD a square centimeter....Hold on, the above thorlabs link has a sq. inch for $115, and if it could be cleaved into 4 separate sq. cm's, this might suit however many it needs. I still need to review this laser schematic, to determine all the interior optics needed However, if costs can be minimized elsewhere, then this won't be a problem. I am interested in figuring out how to make this as I am finishing a SEM. It is the electronics, mostly that is taking me forever to complete it. I was under the impression that E-beam lithography could be used for chip-fab but adequate performance is now only obtained via 193nm immersion lithography.

DoctorOfPhilosophy - 22-6-2016 at 14:29

Huh, that's a very cool salt. Looks like they basically had the same idea as me, having an integrated module of salt connected to the laser cavity. Getting potassium hexafluoronickelate(IV) might be a pain, but not impossible. Looks like it's around $90 for 10 grams. Naturally, you need fluorine gas to make the salt so it would be pointless to do that.

If you get it working I'll send you some silicon wafers to kickstart your fab. I tried making mosfets before with limited success but I've moved on to microfluidics because there are more people interested in working together on that. What photoresist are you planning on using for this? That stuff is like $500 per bottle and the smallest spec of dust ruins it!

PS. Crunching the math again for potassium hexafluoronickelate(IV) suggests that you will need at least 0.25g per litre. Not too bad...

[Edited on 22-6-2016 by DoctorOfPhilosophy]

SupaVillain - 22-6-2016 at 16:15

That's very kind of you, thanks for the offer. I'm not sure which photoresist I would use but am looking to replicate graphics processing units and such because of their ability to work for artificial neural networks. I guess I would use whatever is used by the manufacturer of the specific graphics card. The new kilocore is 32nm and after looking at its publication I'd like to replicate it... but I would have to make merely a similar one based off info in the paper as I won't have one in my hands to work with.

Microfluidics is pretty interesting. I've looked into DNA oligonucleotide synthesis in a PDMS lab on a chip for about 300 to 400 USD IIRC

I think I'm still sticking to CoF3 generation of fluorine.

PHILOU Zrealone - 23-6-2016 at 05:11

I'm not an expert at L.A.S.E.R. technologies, so sorry if the ideas are dumb...just ideas...

CO2 lasers do exists...could it be possible to use CF4 instead to circumvent the use of dangerous F2?

What about SiO2 (Al2O3/Cr2O3 laser do exist) or SiF4?

SupaVillain - 23-6-2016 at 16:46

any ideas are welcome, unfortunately it is the argon and fluorine combo that makes it at the 193 nm wavelength, which is what is required for the application. Solid state lasers don't have much written about them and don't seem to generate enough power like gas lasers.

Also, this paper:
193-nm lithography at MIT Lincoln Lab.
Cover Art image
by Michael Hibbs, Roderick Kunz
Format:ArticlePublication year:1995|Peer-reviewedSource:
Solid State Technology Jul95, Vol. 38 Issue 7, p69
Editions statement:No other Editions or FormatsDatabase:Academic Search Complete

...seems to say that fused silica, SiO2, is good enough for the optics, and that CaF2 can be used as well for slightly less damage...

According to Hibbs and Kunz (1995) "Due to its crystalline nature, calcium fluoride (CaF2) does not suffer from compaction. It is susceptible to color-center formation, but apparently this is caused only by defects and impurities in the material. High-purity CaF2, now available, is comparable to or better than fused silica in its resistance to damage. At present, the main barriers to extensive use of calcium fluoride as a 193-nm lens material are residual stress birefringence and lack of experience with the material's grinding and polishing characteristics.
Reticle-protecting pellicles made by Dupont and Exion have been tested at 193 nm for transparency and damage resistance. These pellicles, designed for use at 248 urn, are made of proprietary Teflon-like materials that have very good transparency at 193 nm (absorption losses are in the range of 1--2%). Both brands were thinned by prolonged exposure to high-intensity 193-nm radiation and could eventually be ruptured. However, extrapolation from the high-flux tests to the low-flux environment that the pellicles would actually experience in manufacturing indicates that pellicles would have an acceptably long lifetime for manufacturing as long as photoresist dose requirements do not rise much above the 15 -25 mJ/cm2 range.
Except for concerns about pellicle thinning, materials used for binary masks at 248 nm are expected to exhibit substantially similar performance at 193 nm. Chrome opacity is as high at 193 nm as it is at 248 nm and optically induced damage to either chrome or fused silica is of little concern in 193-nm photomasks due to the low power-densities at the mask plane. The bulk absorption of fused silica used for photomasks does not have to be as low as that used for the projection optics because of the much shorter optical path length through the mask. Considerable work is needed in the development of phase-shifting materials for 193 nm"

Also according to Hibbs and Kunz (1995) "The projection optics of the 193-nm Micrascan prototype are patterned very closely after the 248-nm Micrascan II optical design. The exposure field is a 22 x 5 mm slit through which the wafer is scanned along the short axis to give a total exposed area of 22 x 32.5 mm. The NA of the projection optics is 0.50 and the demagnification of the system is 4 x.
The optics consist of a concave mirror used as a 4 x reduction lens. A polarizing cube beam splitter sits between the mirror and the wafer surface. Several refractive optical elements are included for aberration control. All refractive elements, including the cube beam splitter, are made of a selected grade of fused silica. The cube beam splitter, which accounts for the greatest part of the optical path length in fused silica, was tested extensively for transparency at 193 nm before fabrication. Its bulk absorption is <0.7% per cm. The optical transmission of the 193-nm projection optics is approximately half that of the equivalent 248-nm optics, leading to a concern about lens-heating effects at 193 nm. At the low power levels used for the initial lens-heating tests (about 32 mW/cm2 at the wafer plane), no definitive lens-heating effects could be seen. A more careful study of these effects must be undertaken when higher laser power is available.
Scattered light is a serious concern at 193 nm. Since scattering from point-like defects (Rayleigh scattering) increases as the inverse fourth power of the wavelength, the problem could be twice as pronounced at 193 nm as at 248 nm. Measurements have indicated that scattered light levels in the 193-nm optics are generally higher than in a similar 248-nm optical design. Future tests will have to establish whether the scattering is dominated by defects in the bulk-fused silica, or by surface finish or coating defects. Specialized measurement equipment may have to be built for accurate measurement of low-angle scattered light"

As for the construction of the laser, I think the best way is to simply understand that the fluorine will always affect whatever you use over time, so a cheaper and disposable device is adequate. Therefore, I'd like to make the chamber out of copper pipe as according to NASA, ( copper and nickel, or "monel" which is both, are what you should use for high pressures for fluorine. Even brass would be fine for this. Remember that is for pure fluorine, whereas I'll be working with a tenth of a percent. Also, the burst pressure for copper pipe is well over 93atm, whereas this will likely be at 3atm. As far as putting the gases in and getting to 3atm or more, a simple application of Gay-Lussac's and Boyle's laws will do the work. I think the fluorine and argon will go in first, then a pipe full of neon, all at atmospheric pressure, will be cooled with dry ice down until I can push a stopper in the tube forward to lower the desired volume, then close a valve and wait for it to come back to room temperature, which would have it at its desired pressure if done correctly. That filter thing in the patents is only for Krypton Fluoride lasers it seems, so I can eliminate that, then, whatever way I want to cool it, gets rid of that whole block, and then the fan, well if i can put some magnets in some copper enclosure and have something whipe a magnet on the exterior, along a second connected pipe, that would likely cause enough movement to be better than nothing, or i can attach some alumina strips to the same and do a magnetic stir bar type of fan.

I have a little handheld bike tire filler that opens small cartridges of CO2 or Argon, (the argon will only be 3% of the mixture) but neon doesn't seem to come in these cartridges. I may have to get a lecture bottle, and storing one is an issue, might have to get it and return it for each refill, then again I'm not planning to produce 400 wafers an hour either.

[Edited on 24-6-2016 by SupaVillain]

DoctorOfPhilosophy - 24-6-2016 at 07:55

You're right, silica will handle fluorine, take a look at how insanely dry it has to be and how difficult it is to prepare everything

The magnet idea might mess with the arc between the electrodes but I think convection should be good enough. For neon gas, take a look here ( Otherwise, see if you can find a neon sign maker who will share some neon.

Here's a pic of my CO2 laser, and even that has taken months and an entire side project of building a sputter coating machine for the mirrors (the whole setup on the right)

laser1.jpg - 69kB laser2.jpg - 54kB overview.jpg - 145kB

SupaVillain - 24-6-2016 at 15:10

Beautiful setup! Inspirational to say the least. Yes it's the side projects that hit me most with time. Especially learning electronics. Oh, and waiting for eBay packages to arrive. Yea if advanced specialty gases can mail me their smallest bottle that would be great, I wonder how much that would cost, there is one neon shop local to me I'll have to look into first. I already have some Viton gasket and some silver solder for the copper. The patents have influenced me to take the interior fan more seriously.

The theodoregray link is very informative, I think the name of the DuPont fluorocarbon grease is "Krytox", I'll have to look into what to use to "silylate" the quartz lenses.

SupaVillain - 28-6-2016 at 22:59

I don't think i'm going to silylate the fused silica lenses, but definitely going to put krytox around the whole inside. Neon has been difficult to find, called 5+ places today mostly sign stores that do neon signs but none of them, even the Airgas PLANT sell it. Found there's an Air Liquide in my state and a Praxair just over the state border. Sent quote requests to both today but then I found this ( Might be a helpful link for anyone else interested. Used a calculator with the gay-lussac's law and turns out I would need liquid nitrogen for my previous filling plan, then realized if I got a pressurized cylinder, I wouldn't have to do that at all. The cylinders for 25 liters and below seem to be disposable and below 2 feet tall.

Also, wanted to share this, this source for fused silica optics is FAR cheaper than any others I've seen.

PHILOU Zrealone - 29-6-2016 at 02:45

Maybe buy a plasma ball to get some rare gas neon, argon or xenon...but sometimes it is a mix of gases (I don't know if it is a problem for your laser application)

SupaVillain - 29-6-2016 at 10:34

The problem with that is that those things and neon lights are under vacuum, this laser has to be at 3 atmospheres.

SupaVillain - 30-6-2016 at 14:12

Called advanced specialty gases in NV, quoted 25L lecture bottle for $325, nGlantz was, if you're a business, $369 for that amount, or $178 for 10L, but if you're not a business then it costs over a thousand. Don't remember which one was then costing that much but wow. Still waiting on quote from Praxair and called them today for quote, still waiting on call back. However, I have found that I can build a scuba compressor(I have schematics and manuals) and liquefy air by myself, like this guy here ( There are 5-7 horsepower gas motors on craigslist from mowers and such, for less than $60 in my area. Just saw one for $35, and the actual compressor, well... I had already looked into this because I need to paint my car. Been driving around a cosmetically wrecked car for 2 years now because I care more about funding science projects than what others think of my car. It would cost less to build this compressor and make my own neon than it would to buy neon, especially because I already need it for other reasons, including supplying gas to my SCBA PPE. This might take some time to do... Neon being at 18.2 ppm in the atmosphere is the most annoying part. Running a 6cfm compressor for an hour would give me.. I think 0.18 liters of neon. Thankfully its boiling point is quite far from other gases, with the exception of helium.

[Edited on 1-7-2016 by SupaVillain]

careysub - 30-6-2016 at 14:28

Between DoctorOfPhilosophy and Supavillain I am greatly impressed!

A working CO2 laser, plans for a fluorine laser AND for harvesting neon from the wild!

SupaVillain - 7-7-2016 at 18:33

Progress: I have read through the papers I have on a select compressor, and found the exact materials and dimensions of the pistons. The pressures they need to be at, the air flow diagram, stroke, and more of its functionality were included. Also found multiple pictures online I am currently making progress on the idea of making a device that would attach to my car to run the compressor. Otherwise I can go pick up an engine for it, well within feasibility for my other uses. After researching DIY high voltage capacitors for other projects, and for the fact that I'm sitting next to a mazilli ZVS driver, I may be able to make the capacitors instead of ordering a bunch, and use it for melting and casting the stainless steel piston and cylinder, the piston is only 0.52 inches in diameter. This would probably be much easier than trying to use charcoal for that material. Someone reported that these parts were actually just steel, but stainless is probably on the safer side. The other 2 pistons are apparently aluminum but look bronze and the other cylinders are bronze. I found that some lead free solders are 95% tin, and I've got some copper pipe to melt. I have a ton of aluminum and will use that for the block as well. Found out how to make greensand and where to buy the bentonite and sand for the cast forms. The O-rings are Viton and spiral cut, and turns out their lube/grease is actually krytox. Today, I realized I don't need a compressible cylinder to keep the neon because it would be so small and that I can apply Gay-Lussac's thermal/pressure law at that point because of the availability of liquid air. Looked at some patents and found that the fan and motor are crucial, so I will probably have a super thin, (limiting volume) flattened tube that stretches away from the laser, far enough to separate the magnets for it and the high voltage, although the whole copper body will be grounded. Seems that a fully internal rotor, and external stator(permanent magnet) is best way to run the fan. Also considering just running thin tube from back and front of laser cylinder and having the fan push the air in a loop, freshest air at front. Can't be stressed enough, the importance of the fan. Inter-electrode distance can be from 8mm to 16mm(13mm is nominal according to patents) and electrode width should be about 1mm to 2mm. Kind of possible to put it in a 1/2inch pipe but... keeping the high voltage cathode striking the anode instead of the outer body is another design requirement. Honestly I think bringing the electrodes to sharp points in their middles is better than just rounding them. After looking at spark-gap measuring of high voltages, there is a graph on youtube( that shows the difference between spheres and sharp pointed wires. It is must easier for voltages to cross through air or other gases with sharp pointed wires. The rounded nature of the outer body pipe, and pointed, or "mohawked" electrodes if you will, might be enough to keep the gas discharging constantly and not skip to the ground. Anode is also held at ground but this discharge area is designated for creating the constant light.

[Edited on 8-7-2016 by SupaVillain]

[Edited on 8-7-2016 by SupaVillain]

DoctorOfPhilosophy - 7-7-2016 at 20:05

SupaVillain, it's as if we're long lost siblings. I also tried to build that machine and I can tell you it's not easy. Probably doable, but it's absolutely, positively going to cost more than buying the gas. Even if you work an extra 40 hours (assuming minimum wage), it's well worth it.

I'm really surprised though that you can't find it from a neon sign maker. I could ask some people here, I've already done business with one guy and his son is extremely fascinated by lasers so it could be an interesting request for him. I would need to have a way to ship the gas safely though. You don't happen to live near Toronto?

PS I'm trying to parse your second message but its hard to think when I'm juggling two conversations on a dating site haha :P

[Edited on 8-7-2016 by DoctorOfPhilosophy]

SupaVillain - 7-7-2016 at 21:26

Are you talking about the Rix SA-6? It's a very simple compressor, all I need to do is get the small pieces casted and grind and polish em. Well I guess the bearing and rotor are going to be a little complex, but if I get this induction welder finished it will be easy. Doing quality work of a "canted" rotor shaft without an induction welder would be extremely difficult, if possible. I've setup forge projects like this before. Eh, I honestly need the compressor for other purposes, along with preparing an engine applicable to this and a lathe. I live in Kentucky, might be because police state? I bet praxair would sell it to me but they never message or call back. Not currently working because I am in between college semesters, am on "on-call" for jury duty, and working on getting computer/security certifications before school is back in session. Most places just don't care to sell neon, only supply businesses, or their receptionists answered the phone instead of their tech people. There was another place I was going to email but gave up and became excited about my current plan. I also consider it more of fun than work. I'm going pretty far out with these DIY ventures. Yesterday I cut my own hair!

Tool attachment onto car:

I also figured out why the pistons in my pics are so yellow like bronze, yet aluminum. They are chromated!

[Edited on 8-7-2016 by SupaVillain]

DoctorOfPhilosophy - 8-7-2016 at 09:20

How about this, you focus on building all other components of the laser, and then I donate the neon gas once everything else is finished and documented?

SupaVillain - 8-7-2016 at 18:43

That's very kind of you, but I really don't need financial support here, I am just very cheap because it means more projects for the same cost, and there is a lot of pride in making your own equipment. Honestly if it doesn't work, I'll be calling up places for a Neon cylinder in that same minute I find that conclusion. Even with a newly made business if I have to. I'm already making the fiberglass molds and hopefully finishing them tonight. Thank you again for the support, it is really appreciated.

DoctorOfPhilosophy - 9-7-2016 at 19:40

Ah ok that makes sense, in that case are you going to use that guy's air liquifier design or make your own? In any case I can help you do that calculations properly. I found that mild steel pipe conducts too much thermal energy along the length of the heat exchanger (assuming thinnest available wall thickness). Stainless steel has almost the optimal thermal conductivity for a practical (from an engineering standpoint) design. I ended up spending $200 on SS pipe for the project.

On that guy's website, he's also using SS tubing but he doesn't show any engineering calculations. I wonder if he just got lucky by choosing the right material...

SupaVillain - 9-7-2016 at 22:33

Well not really trying to copy that guy, his whole thing is about an adsorbent molecular sieve that removes oxygen I think, and I'm going for distillation I think....

Actually fixed my calculations on the pipe volume, if I take my half inch copper pipe at 2 feet length, I can fill it in 1.5 hours, yet that's not including the fan and its piping. I have finally decided how I'm going to seal the laser, yet still debating on dielectrics to separate the incoming wires from the grounded tube. I don't trust my initial idea of having copper bolts silver-soldered to the cathode so that a tight nut could fasten a seal, my final decision is to use slightly over 3mm of viton between cathode and top of tubing, and have copper wire wrapped in dielectric instead of bolts. JB weld will take the task of making an air tight seal around these components, mostly just around the wire to the viton, and on the exterior of the copper tube to the visible top of the viton. A generous amount of krytox will cover the interior of the viton so that the fluorine doesn't affect it. I have confidence in that design, and part of actually getting this done is accepting the fact that nothing designed for fluorine work will last forever.

For the compressor, it is basically just the same, or one model higher, than what he is using, and the needle valve to cause the joule-thomson effect. The model is the Rix SA-6 and I have found manuals/schematics and such. Believe it or not but there is only about 8 feet or so IIRC of stainless tubing, at 1/4 inches I believe. The other two coils are copper. I have taken the provided piston diameters and pictures of them to calculate their lengths and other dimensions with ratios. The first two are aluminum, with bronze cylinders, the last stage is stainless for the cylinder and piston. Picked up sand and bentonite for casting today. Found out my soldering iron is better than a hot wire cutter for cutting and "sanding" foam molds.

SupaVillain - 9-7-2016 at 22:42

Pics and gathered info on the compressor

there's drawings in the manual and a reed valve service guide, but I won't upload in case it's too much data.
Piston Diameters
1st - 3 inches
2nd - 1.25 inches
3rd - 0.56 inches
spiral viton for all piston rings


forums: so useful)


Rixswash.jpg - 65kBRixcylinders.jpg - 58kBRixpistonsrings.jpg - 26kB

SupaVillain - 12-7-2016 at 17:04

Just picked up the 8 HP engine to run the compressor. (Equal to 5 HP electric) Not gonna waste time trying to make something that might damage my car... Eventually felt a disc pulley connected to the bolts would be best as it wouldn't ram into the car if the wheels turned. Then realized that I have no idea if it could hold a belt with tension, without turning. Realized I could use it as a lathe to make the cylinders and pistons precisely, more easily. This should also be much faster than improvising with my car.

For the fan, I'll have no leaky dirty feedthrough business with fluorine. I found out the usual plating on neodymium magnets is nickel, and i'll have them held on a copper bar, as opposed to a teflon coated magnet stir bar, and fins upon this. I have motors from a printer to do this. Spent many hours frustrated with magnets, attempting different designs. YouTube is swamped with "free energy" crap to the point where there's no guarantee what is legit and what isn't. ****ing magnets, how do they work? One of the biggest issues with magnets is that heating them weakens them, and can even remove their magnetic field. This might require some viton valve to allow the copper stir bar in after soldering of the copper body.

I think for a ball bearing/swash plate, I'm just going to get a ball bearing for the make and model of my car, as I'd assume it can handle the compressor if it can handle a car. I think the actual one in the pics above are about 6.25 inches... they get real expensive well before they reach that size. Of course I would have to weld the bearing to more metal that I would bolt the piston's thrust rods to.

[Edited on 13-7-2016 by SupaVillain]

Tsjerk - 13-7-2016 at 05:17

I'm sorry for questioning you, good luck getting this thing to work!

SupaVillain - 13-7-2016 at 23:17

I apologize as well, and thank you. See, I started out saying it that way because many a time, threads with things like fluorine, arsenic, mercury, etc. are filled up with posts of safety rants, and the discussion might never get to where it's trying to go, although I appreciate that the science community is so insisting of safety. Good luck on your pursuits as well.

CRUSTY - 14-7-2016 at 19:09

To answer OP's first original question:

If you're looking for the volume of fluorine gas produced by the thermal decomp. of CuF2, or whatever compound you end up choosing in place of the copper (II) fluoride, use the ideal gas law:

PV = nRT

...where P = pressure (atm), V = volume (liters), n = moles of gas, R = ideal gas constant (R = 0.08206 L*atm*mol-1*K-1), and T = temperature in degrees K.
Assuming OP is asking about the volume of fluorine at STP, given 5 grams of copper (II) fluoride is equal to 0.04924 moles copper (II) fluoride, the equation for volume of fluorine produced by this reaction would be:

(1 atm)x = (0.04924 mol F2)(0.08206)(273.15 degrees K)

Upon solving this, x (volume) is found to be 1.1037 liters of F2. Since the whole copper (II) fluoride thing was eventually ruled way to hard to pull off, this law can be applied to any other gas, as long as you know the molar quantity, temp, pressure, and the appropriate R value for the given units of measure (in this case, the R value for the units L atm mol K).

I hope this is what OP was asking for in the first question of the first post.. ;)

[Edited on 15-7-2016 by CRUSTY]

SupaVillain - 15-7-2016 at 23:18

Thank you Crusty! I'll need to calculate that for the cobalt trifluoride --> fluorine sublimation.

Finished the ZVS driver induction heater/welder pictured here, of Mazilli and Marko's design.

On eBay, a search of "3 inch stock" showed me exactly what I need to put in the swash plate of the compressor. I'll have to order belt drive wheels, being 3 inches at 3600 rpm to 7 inches for around 1500 rpm. While waiting for those to arrive I'll be testing the induction welder, and the Krytox came so I'll start on the laser

inductionheater.jpg - 198kB

CRUSTY - 16-7-2016 at 07:46

You're very welcome! I'm also really jealous that you have a ZVS induction setup, I've always wanted to make one. How difficult was it to get functional?

[Edited on 16-7-2016 by CRUSTY]

SupaVillain - 16-7-2016 at 10:41

Haha I don't know about functional yet.... mostly the soldering to the copper chiller was the worst. Decided to weave bare wires into holes and solder them in that way. Was really frustrated with trying to solder the caps to the 16 gauge wire, so I went with 26 gauge since it's about the same size as the leads of the caps. I figured if leads could handle higher current then it must be fine to use smaller wire. Made my own inductors by filling spools with ferrite powder and tons of electrical tape. Also probably burnt up an IRFP250 mosfet so I switched it out. I haven't gotten too much practice soldering. I coiled the chiller on a bottle of Ciroc but got some kinks in it.

I'm actually a little confused with the above equation of PV = nRT.... I'm thinking since it's a compound, shouldn't I find the moles of the fluorine content in CoF3 and not that of both the fluorine and the cobalt in the compound? Because for me it says that I'll get 3 liters of fluorine from just 5 grams of CoF3. I don't think the entire laser will even make up 1 liter. So that would supply me with like a thousand times what I need, being that the fluorine content would be a just below less than a tenth of 1% of the gases, at 3 atm pressure inside.

600C = 873.15K

(1 atm)x = (0.04313 mol CoF3)(0.08206)(873.15 degrees K)
X = 3.09 liters

Oh geez, forgot what I was doing but I read this pageI came across the 2nd stage bronze cylinder already madeat this link or maybe slightly larger, and I think 3 inch copper pipe is suitable for the 1st stage since it's so much lower than the others, and something clicked and I realized the 3 inch aluminum stock I might use on the rotor shaft is perfect for the 1st stage piston. It might be too early to say that I wont need to do any lathing, but it is a possibility and would save so much time.

[Edited on 17-7-2016 by SupaVillain]

DoctorOfPhilosophy - 16-7-2016 at 19:42

SupaVillain, thank you for posting your progress, looking forward to your next updates :)

SupaVillain - 19-7-2016 at 10:49

After debating different methods of heating the CoF3 to 600C, I realized a torch, induction, laser through the optics, etc. are all too destructive and too large near joints, tried thinking of powdering the anode so that the voltage would vaporize it, then thought of a tiny heating coil, and tungsten wire filaments.

There are $8 dollar tungsten filament bulbs that could be placed in a tiny cup of CoF3, at the bottom of a small copper stubout....Actually I might have to check chemical compatibility.... but a copper wire would work too, would just have to actually calculate current capacity and make sure it doesnt melt the wire.

Also tried soldering with a butane torch unsuccesfully and realized since I'm using a Krytox covered epoxy on multiple things already, might as well do so on two or three more instead of getting a torch.

CRUSTY - 19-7-2016 at 13:08

You might want to be careful using copper. The CoF3 won't react with the copper at STP, but at about 400 degrees Celsius, fluorine will react with copper to form copper (II) fluoride. Tungsten does the same (exothermically by the way) at 350-400 degrees Celsius, so make sure any copper and/or tungsten is isolated from any F2 gas, since you're planning on using temperatures around 600C.

SupaVillain - 19-7-2016 at 16:51

Thanks again Crusty, I see that, I'm looking at pure nickel wire now and it doesn't seem to have problems. More on that below... The reason why it wouldn't bother the rest of the copper is that this would be ideally a very small filament, probably wouldn't be operating the laser with this filament heated up.

According to Haendler, Patterson, and Bernard (1952), in "The Reaction of Fluorine with Zinc, Nickel and Some of their Binary Compounds. Some Properties of Zinc and Nickel Fluorides1a, 1b",

"The reaction of Fluorine with Nickel and Some of its Copmounds.--Finely divided nickel waqs fluorinated for purposes of comparison. It was only partially reacted at 400 degrees. It was possible to approach complete conversion by the fluorinations at 550 degrees, the sample being ground between runs."

J. Am. Chem. Soc., 1952, 74 (12), pp 3167–3168
DOI: 10.1021/ja01132a062

So what I take from this is that nickel should be fine for a one time heating, making the tiniest little amount of fluorine generated, could only be a problem if the CoF3 powder keeps reabsorbing the fluorine after it returns to CoF2, resulting in the need of further heating events. I doubt that will happen as the fluorine will likely be too dispersed across the inside of the copper piping. I'm also assuming their degrees are in Celsius. I could always just valve off this area containing a heating coil and CoF3, which I will probably have to as the volume has been minimized as much as possible.

Uh oh, turns out the eBay seller that had the thick viton I needed for my piston gaskets is "away" and nobody else I'm aware of sells them at the thickness I might need for a non-astronomical price. Just in case I need it, I'm going to leave this here....
Material: FPM/FKM (Fluorocarbon [Chlorotrifluoroethylenevinylidene fluoride])
Tradenames: Viton,[19] Tecnoflon FKM, DAI-EL (Daikin)

Aaaaaaaaaand i researched that issue finding that "vulcanizing" is how parts can be joined (and with epoxy) and that compression molding is how theyre totally reshaped.

[Edited on 20-7-2016 by SupaVillain]

Fleaker - 21-7-2016 at 18:12

Sounds like a fun project.

I still have some Krytox 240 AC that I would donate to the cause (had about 300 tubes but sold most, kept a few of tubes for firearms and greasing things for aqua regia duty). I also have some FEP tubing and some PTFE manifolds if you're interested. If the F2 won't be under significant pressure, you could probably get some PTFE or nickel 200 ferrules/nuts from swagelok and screw into the manifold.

as for the F2...why don't you just order it?
If you put down a deposit, I have a monel regulator that can be loaned to the cause.

"There are $8 dollar tungsten filament bulbs that could be placed in a tiny cup of CoF3, at the bottom of a small copper stubout....Actually I might have to check chemical compatibility.... but a copper wire would work too, would just have to actually calculate current capacity and make sure it doesnt melt the wire."

You'll get WF6 and scavenge all of your F2. Forget platinum too, same issue (know that from experience, PtF6 is volatile!).

As for vacuum pumps...I have something like this:

that I believe is loaded with Fomblin or Krytox pump oil. It and its sister pumps came out of a reactive gas plasma etching system.

Guess I should read more carefully--you already got the Krytox!

[Edited on 22-7-2016 by Fleaker]

SupaVillain - 22-7-2016 at 20:08

The best help is knowledge really, thank you for the support. How well does FEP tubing hold up against fluorine? I mean this laser will be at around 3 atmospheres and 150 degrees fahrenheit I believe, due to the discharge. I'm gonna get CoF3 instead of straight fluorine gas because of the difficulty of handling the actual gas, this way I'll never have to actually handle the gas outside of a totally encapsulating closed chamber. I can also more safely store that for longer periods of time, CoF2 can reabsorb the fluorine, and I think ordering fluorine in that form would be impossible in the super tiny "easily made harmless" amounts that I actually need, I don't want to waste my country's surveillance resources on it when I'm just a dude trying to make a special "light bulb". It's so dangerous I wouldn't even go anywhere near a cylinder of fluorine unless I had full positive pressure and SCBA equipment. Ordering more than you need of anything is a terribly costly mistake, not only for the increased cost of proper disposal, but also for the heightened danger in the event of catastrophe/spillage/leakage, and just the space it takes up even. I'm deciding soon whether to use nickel foil or a nickel plated...anything, to hold the CoF3. Now i'm worrying that the current of a battery would enter foil and burn it up or take up the current on contact with the nichrome instead of allowing the nichrome to heat up.

I have left a neodymium magnet stuck to a soldering iron set at 150 fahrenheit temperature for at least a half hour, finding that it doesn't lose its strength. Covered ground on ideas for a DIY, slightly over 6" inch ball bearing today for the swash plate, and take a look at the size relationship of the pistons and cylinders! With 1/16" difference, they share a little of 3/4's of a millimeter on each side, perfect AFAIK for the viton compression rings and rider rings. I don't have the 1st stage cylinder yet... Also have to sand out a weld seam for the stainless 3rd stage cylinder. Going to glue together a viton bladed fan as final decision. Krytox will really be what keeps the fluorine from destroying everything structurally.

cylinderspistons.jpg - 346kB

I have now obtained nickel thumbtacks that form a little bowl in the half inch pipe and I have calculated an example to picture the powder.
0.0618 liters F2 via 1/10th gram cof3 and thats 0.0257 ml volume of cof3 powder

[Edited on 23-7-2016 by SupaVillain]

Fleaker - 23-7-2016 at 06:59

If it's at 3 atm, I wouldn't trust it for delivery. Low pressure, room temp, it's fine.

Thing about fluorine is it's really really bad when it's moving, and it's under pressure, and it's hot.

SupaVillain - 27-7-2016 at 19:17

Sawed through 3" inches of aluminum rod to get the 1st stage piston, gonna grind it up tomorrow to fit in its cylinder, "pivot balls" and their "caps" or "bearings" are the names of the devices attaching the piston rods to the swash plate/ball bearing, I've found a 5/8" shaft and ball bearings, but am looking at bearings with shaft flange now, and I've got a 5" sheave, along with a 12" sheave, made of Zamak 3, to be reliable in transmitting 5 horsepower to the compressor with an A belt. Found a 6" ball bearing for cheap, worried that it might not handle the amount of thrust though. Found out that the bottom area of the swash plate is just a thrust bearing or two... like ball bearings, but are limited in left and right movement by blocks, held together by bolt with spring, and these bearings are running against "thrust riders"...basically this keeps the alignment of the whole plate, by forcing this bottom area into a back and forth motion that the pistons require. Will likely be tie-ing down my angle grinder to a block of wood so that I can utilize the 1/16" width of cutoff wheels on the o-ring cavities.... or at least on the really wide ones. Made another zvs driver but for voltage, and for my SEM, might be able to use it for this laser project as well. It is nice because after learning about negative voltages, its isolation flyback transformer can meet a ground, and everything between that and the negative end of the secondary coil will be negative. I'm assuming that since the anode is grounded and its the cathode that the discharge starts on, that I'll be using negative voltages. Soldering a 92 piece string resistor voltage divider took a while.... however that is only for 12kV, but could easily add more in series for the laser voltages of 16-20kV. I don't know if by "pulse" they(these patents) mean frequency, or capacitor discharging pulses, or something entirely unknown to me.

[Edited on 28-7-2016 by SupaVillain]

SupaVillain - 3-8-2016 at 19:54

After trying many ways, finally found the best way I can carve out the o-ring grooves..... First piston takes longest time to make and is allowed to have more defects than others as it is working with the least amount of pressure. Any fix could be done with jb weld, it is strong enough for the pressures and wear but only in this stage. The viton isn't falling out of the grooves. Also, noticed the spiral o-ring patent doesn't mention viton, and they actually used much harder materials, so the viton could be vulcanized together, and like stated before, this is stronger than the viton alone. It's worth making something much harder to install and remove than it is to have something like the spirals that might not work. Might put a thin layer of glue between my non-precise machining of only the rider rings, so that a flat seal is made, but it's not necessary as they don't help with the compression. I now have almost every part but the main block, thrust rods, the "cant" of the shaft, etc. Trying to find a way to fasten 5/8" bolts to the ball bearing....

SupaVillain - 21-8-2016 at 17:31

decided to pour a cement cylinder block, because easy, cheap, and I'm confident that it will work. Yes it crumbles every time you move it, but this is only the far outside. It is much, much thicker around the cylinders than the regular metal version. Don't remember if I said this or not, but I have already visualized the interior design of the reed valves, and I guess that will be the next part I work on. Did a ton of work on electronics, now have two microwave oven transformers(secondaries modified), to supply and limit current to the mazilli zvs circuit for the laser. Pulled some nice little purple sparks with a ccfl inverter and touched the actual circuit after safely discharging, so high voltage safety is now under my belt as well.

2016-08-21 18.38.09.jpg - 618kB

and here's the pistons, 3rd needs some trimming on the viton, and 1st will have to be installed backwards to work because its first ring is too skinny and not deep enough to stay put. Will redo the first piston.

2016-08-21 23.02.50.jpg - 267kB

[Edited on 22-8-2016 by SupaVillain]

SupaVillain - 21-9-2016 at 00:39

So pistons are really hard to make when they're bigger because the chance of them being oval shaped and not applying the o-ring perfectly gets harder, especially since viton doesn't compress very much.

I FOUND NEON FOR $20 FOR 0.9 LITERS AT WENSCO.COM because I did another search and this time used duckduckgo instead of google. Re-calculated and I think one of these things will give me twice the amount I need. (

Platinum Resistance Thermometers.... There are cheap ones on ebay sometimes, which I would rather now just forward that cost to the neon.

I also got a cheap old rectifier for like 800amps and two microwave oven transformers(one as an inductor to limit current) to weld the 5/8" threaded rods onto the ball bearing....

I will finish this compressor with time, since I still have lots of uses for it and almost every part but I'm in school and the laser is what I'm really rushing here. Will be looking at laser power supplies so I can see if I need any other effect other than just high voltage.

SupaVillain - 8-10-2016 at 17:18

Okay so I may use a submersible DC brushless motor since youtube shows they work underwater, the liquid being krytox of course

attached pic is the pulsed laser power supply without actual Mazilli power supplies. I have my MOT's set up as well to supply the Mazillis, will probably need a battery for the second one....

The pipes are the PVC pipe as salt water leyden jar capacitors, tested and fine but I might need one more layer...Transformers in the bag will have mineral oil on them, I could only find baby oil.

the schematic for the laser power supply is Fig. 30 here

Trying to finalize the idea of using this closed chamber pressurizing technique in this video using Boyle's law, may need to combine it with Gay-Lussac's law using dry ice as well though... the problem is trying to start with the 0.9 liters of neon volume i'd get with the wensco bottle, and then trying to compress it to only around 0.5, not enough of a jump unless I could fill a greater valved off extension with a liquid....? confusing... anyways when I get that done I can order the chems and put it together and turn it on.

[Edited on 9-10-2016 by SupaVillain]

laserPSU.jpg - 31kB