Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Ammonium Hydroxide

MineMan - 13-10-2016 at 14:46

Hello All,

I am looking for 26-29% Ammonium Hydroxide.

I am quite surprised by how expensive it is, I bought a liter from ebay for about $20.

I know this chemical is used in industry extensively, and in vast quantities, so I am surprised at the difficulty of acquisition.

It does not need to be lab grade.


After another search this is the cheapest I can find.. but they want $25 for shipping: http://www.hvchemical.com/ammonium-hydroxide-28-1-gal-aqua-a...

I live in a town of over a million in the States, are there any types of stores you think I would have luck with?

Or other websites?

NedsHead - 13-10-2016 at 15:21

have you considered making it? it's pretty easy to synthesize from an ammonia salt and sodium hydroxide, my preferred method is using urea and sodium hydroxide

ave369 - 13-10-2016 at 22:36

Another method is making it from OTC ammonia by concentrating it. You pour weak OTC ammonia in a large flask, and connect it by tube to a small funnel-and-beaker trap. Then you heat the weak ammonia until gas starts to emerge; it goes into the trap and dissolves. Proceed until ammonia no longer dissolves in the trap.

Texium - 14-10-2016 at 05:39

Quote: Originally posted by NedsHead  
have you considered making it? it's pretty easy to synthesize from an ammonia salt and sodium hydroxide, my preferred method is using urea and sodium hydroxide
That's an especially good method if you can start with 10% hardware store ammonia rather than bubbling the gas into plain water.

Dr.Bob - 14-10-2016 at 07:13

If you can say what town/state it is, you might find more luck. Many people know good places for chemicals, but don't want to post them publicly, but if they know roughly where you are, then they can u2u you or offer you some. But shipping it is a pain, which is most of the cost, easier and cheaper to just find a local source.

MineMan - 14-10-2016 at 10:11

I don't have the lab equipment to make it myself, and do not have the storage space to store the equipment, but thank you.

Buying it is the only option.

I live in southern AZ

Melgar - 14-10-2016 at 16:01

The reason the shipping costs are so high is because you're paying hazmat fees. That's typically about $25 tacked onto whatever the normal price is. As far as getting it locally, jewelry supply stores carry it; at least the one near me does.
Quote:
have you considered making it? it's pretty easy to synthesize from an ammonia salt and sodium hydroxide, my preferred method is using urea and sodium hydroxide


You actually don't even need the sodium hydroxide, just heat up urea until it starts off-gassing ammonia, at which point it'll turn into cyanuric acid. You really only need the sodium hydroxide (or sodium carbonate/bicarbonate if you want to cut costs) in order to make the cyanuric acid more soluble in water, since it's a bitch to rinse out of a container otherwise.

cyanureeves - 14-10-2016 at 16:28

you dont need lab equipment either.i have made it with deer hooves and horns using a spray paint can and a pc. of wood with a hole as a stopper.you will need some copper tubing to condense the ammonia vapor though.i ordered from dudadiesel but the ammonia came almost at the boiling point.good thing the bottle didnt burst but it was about to as the bottom was rounded.

[Edited on 10-15-2016 by cyanureeves]

NedsHead - 14-10-2016 at 16:58

I don't use any special lab gear to make ammonia either, just a glass bottle with a hole drilled in the cap to attach a tube and a heat source https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFVPx4L-DG4

cyanureeves - 15-10-2016 at 07:02

Quote: Originally posted by NedsHead  
I don't use any special lab gear to make ammonia either, just a glass bottle with a hole drilled in the cap to attach a tube and a heat source https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFVPx4L-DG4
great set up and great video.

Morgan - 15-10-2016 at 07:37

Not that it would be that much of a help, but if you bubbled the gas into a tall narrow meter long quartz tube say or column filled with chilled water maybe even less of the ammonia gas would be lost as or if it reached the surface. The air stone adds more surface area to the bubbles too of course.

Melgar - 15-10-2016 at 08:17

Quote: Originally posted by Morgan  
Not that it would be that much of a help, but if you bubbled the gas into a tall narrow meter long quartz tube say or column filled with chilled water maybe even less of the ammonia gas would be lost as or if it reached the surface. The air stone adds more surface area to the bubbles too of course.

Ammonia has a ridiculously high affinity for water. In fact, when they fertilize corn, they often don't even bother to convert the ammonia into a form that isn't a gas at STP. They just squirt anhydrous ammonia, straight from the Haber-Bosch process, directly into the soil, and the vast majority of it stays there, due to the moisture in the soil.

Of course, once the NH4OH concentration gets higher, you'd need to make sure you're losing as little as possible in the vapors, in which case your best bet is probably to stick 10% hardware-store ammonia in the freezer, where it will not actually freeze due to the lower freezing point of the mixture. (This probably holds true for 5% ammonia too, although I have not tested it.) That way, you start off at 5-10% instead of zero, and your solution is a lot colder than water could get.

Also, IIRC, ammonia dissolving in water is endothermic, so you might not even need an outside cooling source.

DraconicAcid - 15-10-2016 at 08:41

It's aqueous ammonia. Ammonium hydroxide is a misnomer that should have been thrown out with the utterly useless Arrhenius definition of an acid base reaction.

aga - 15-10-2016 at 09:10

Azane + water and Bob's your ammonia-smelling uncle.

The only difference between ammonia and ammonium hydroxide is that ammonia is a gas and ammonium hydroxide is what you get if you dissolve that gas in water, which is how it's generally bought anyway.

DraconicAcid - 15-10-2016 at 09:20

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
The only difference between ammonia and ammonium hydroxide is that ammonia is a gas and ammonium hydroxide is what you get if you dissolve that gas in water.


No, if you dissolve ammonia in water, it's still ammonia. Less than 5% of it actually ionizes to give ammonium ions and hydroxide ions.

The nomenclature of "ammonium hydroxide" may be as common as dirt, but it's still wrong.

Morgan - 15-10-2016 at 10:18

On the affinity of ammonia gas for water I remember reading a demonstration where an upside down flask full of NH3 can be cracked/shattered when placed open end in a vessel of water, the gas dissolving that quickly, a somewhat faster reaction than the ammonia fountain.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z4liRirdv0

[Edited on 15-10-2016 by Morgan]

aga - 15-10-2016 at 11:17

Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid  
Less than 5% of it actually ionizes to give ammonium ions and hydroxide ions.

Huh ?

Ammonia dissolves up to 47 w% in ice cold water.

Is that not the same as making Ions ?

Is dissolution not the same as ion-making ?
(well, it wasn't for the monasteries i guess)

I can feel an 'aga is a dumfuk' moment about to happen (again).

Morgan - 15-10-2016 at 11:27

Since it was mentioned ammonia injection on the farm, this other use came to mind.

"In the United States, the additive is not for direct consumer sale. Lean finely textured beef can constitute up to 15 percent of ground beef without additional labeling, and it can be added to other meat products such as beef-based processed meats.[14] Prior to the invention of the disinfection process, beef scraps could not be processed to reduce or remove the fat, bone fragments or other non-beef components and could be sold for other uses only, such as pet food or as an ingredient for cooking oil.[4]"

"Because of ammonium hydroxide use in its processing, the lean finely textured beef by BPI is not permitted in Canada.[89] Health Canada stated that: "Ammonia is not permitted in Canada to be used in ground beef or meats during their production" and may not be imported, as the Canadian Food and Drugs Act requires that imported meat products meet the same standards and requirements as domestic meat.[89][90] Canada does allow Cargill's citric acid-produced Finely Textured Meat (FTM) to be "used in the preparation of ground meat" and "identified as ground meat" under certain conditions.[91]"

"Lean finely textured beef and Finely Textured Meat is banned for human consumption in the European Union (EU).[92][a] Meat processed using the Baader process is allowed in the EU.[94] The Baader process involves the use of a machine manufactured by the Baader Company of Germany that mechanically separates meat residue from bones of animals using low pressure water.[94] This meat is referred to as "desinewed meat", and the Baader process involves the formation of the final product into a red meat paste.[94] It is a similar process to mechanically separated meat, which forces "fragments of meat from animal bones using high pressure water".[94]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_slime
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/03/70-percent-of-...

[Edited on 15-10-2016 by Morgan]

zwt - 15-10-2016 at 11:48

Quote: Originally posted by Morgan  
Pink_slime

What an ingenious suggestion! Since very little ammonia is actually consumed in the disinfection process, and every minute particle of meat is recovered, the waste water from pink slime plants may, in fact, be a free source of the concentrated ammonia solution the OP is looking for.
Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
It does not need to be lab grade.

ave369 - 15-10-2016 at 12:03

Quote: Originally posted by aga  


Ammonia dissolves up to 47 w% in ice cold water.

Is that not the same as making Ions ?


Nope, there's a form of tautomerism: the hydrate NH3*H2O and the ionic species NH4+OH- coexist and turn into each other, with the former being a major tautomer under most concentrations, and the latter a minor one.

Nevertheless, we don't call aqueous formaldehyde methanediol, despite that the methanediol tautomer CH2(OH)2 is a major one in aqueous solutuions of CH2O. We call it after the minor tautomer, CH2O*H2O. Why not use the same logic with ammonium hydroxide?

[Edited on 15-10-2016 by ave369]

[Edited on 15-10-2016 by ave369]

DraconicAcid - 15-10-2016 at 15:58

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid  
Less than 5% of it actually ionizes to give ammonium ions and hydroxide ions.

Huh ?

Ammonia dissolves up to 47 w% in ice cold water.

Is that not the same as making Ions ?


No. Dissolving simply means it goes into solution. Making ions is reacting with water to give ammonium ions and hydroxide ions. The reaction of NH3(aq) + H2O(l) = NH4(+)(aq) + OH(-))aq) is an equilibrium reaction that lies well to the left (lots of NH3, very little NH4+).

This is similar to the ionization of acetic acid in water:
HC2H3O2(aq) + H2O(l) = H3O(+) + C2H3O2(-)(aq) (in fact they have the same equilibrium constant). Acetic acid is infinitely soluble in water, but very little of it actually ionizes, which is why acetic acid isn't as corrosive as hydrochloric acid.

MineMan - 15-10-2016 at 16:11

Quote: Originally posted by NedsHead  
I don't use any special lab gear to make ammonia either, just a glass bottle with a hole drilled in the cap to attach a tube and a heat source https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFVPx4L-DG4


Ok, How are you making your ammonia vapor though?

I take it the flask is filled up with water or hardware store 10% Ammonium hydroxide to which you bubble it through...

How would you know when your at the max (30%)?

I don't know about this, no matter how well ventilated ( outside with a fan) my experiments are I still smell tons of ammonia and have to have frequent breaks to prevent light headedness. I would think it would be terrible making it because of this.

NedsHead - 15-10-2016 at 16:57

I'm making the ammonia gas by heating the bottle containing urea, sodium hydroxide and a few mls of water.

the beaker is just chilled water.

I generally run the reaction until the ammonia gas no longer appears to be taken up by the water, it's not exact, but it's good enough for my needs.

as Morgan mentioned, if you use a tall, narrow vessel of chilled water to bubble the ammonia into you shouldn't get much gas escaping and when you do begin to smell ammonia it's probably time to shut things down

Maroboduus - 15-10-2016 at 18:55

Try bubbling it through 2 flasks. The first one will absorb most of the ammonia in getting to the point where ammonia passes through. That means the second one will get much less and absorb it pretty well. Could you use any ammonia salts? When you do your runs put different acids in the second bottle and make ammonium sulphate, phosphate, hydrochloride, acetate. The acid will do a great job of scrubbing the air, and if you don't need the salts you can regenerate ammonia from them with more lye

NedsHead - 15-10-2016 at 19:27

that's a good idea, you could save the second solution of weak ammonia and use it as the primary for the next run

Melgar - 16-10-2016 at 08:18

Quote: Originally posted by Maroboduus  
Try bubbling it through 2 flasks. The first one will absorb most of the ammonia in getting to the point where ammonia passes through. That means the second one will get much less and absorb it pretty well. Could you use any ammonia salts? When you do your runs put different acids in the second bottle and make ammonium sulphate, phosphate, hydrochloride, acetate. The acid will do a great job of scrubbing the air, and if you don't need the salts you can regenerate ammonia from them with more lye

Or you could capture it in 5% ammonia from the store, then use this as your starting solution next time you make it. Really, store-bought ammonia is probably not much different in price than distilled water, so why start at zero? If you want to make a salt to keep the smell down, ammonium acetate will turn into acetamide when heated, and it tends to sublimate easily, so it's probably not the best salt to make. It acetic acid smells pretty strongly too.

As far as what ammonium salt to make, phosphates would be my choice. At least the di- and triammonium phosphates will release ammonia when heated sufficiently, if your goal is reclaiming it later. Also makes a great fertilizer, or yeast nutrient for brewing.

Edit: I'm not sure why everyone thinks you need lye to make ammonia from ammonium salts. That's only true for the salts of volatile acids like HCl and HNO3, and ammonium bisulfate. Urea, and any sulfate or phosphate salt with at least two ammonium ions will give them up with just an application of heat. The only issue is possible suck-back, but you can solve that problem forever just by buying a handful of cheap one-way fuel valves on eBay for about $1 apiece. I mean, it may be easier, I guess, but I try not to use $7/pound NaOH unless I really need to.

[Edited on 10/16/16 by Melgar]

MineMan - 16-10-2016 at 11:38

Thank you all for the responses, urea is cheap, but NaOH... seems a little expensive...

It seems like it would cost about the same to just buy it depending on the ratio of NaOH to Urea...

I will have to look into what melgar is suggesting.. Thank you!!

Cheers to All!

Melgar - 16-10-2016 at 16:34

Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid  
The nomenclature of "ammonium hydroxide" may be as common as dirt, but it's still wrong.

Hydroxides don't have to ionize to be hydroxides. Magnesium hydroxide, for example, barely ionizes at all. Still a hydroxide.

DraconicAcid - 16-10-2016 at 16:37

Quote: Originally posted by Melgar  
Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid  
The nomenclature of "ammonium hydroxide" may be as common as dirt, but it's still wrong.

Hydroxides don't have to ionize to be hydroxides. Magnesium hydroxide, for example, barely ionizes at all. Still a hydroxide.

That's because it contains hydroxide ions (it barely ionizes because it barely dissolves). Aqueous ammonia contains ammonia molecules and water molecules.

Melgar - 16-10-2016 at 16:42

Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
Thank you all for the responses, urea is cheap, but NaOH... seems a little expensive...

It seems like it would cost about the same to just buy it depending on the ratio of NaOH to Urea...

I will have to look into what melgar is suggesting.. Thank you!!

Cheers to All!

I've done this before plenty of times, mostly trying to make potassium cyanate. Always a massive amount of ammonia gas generated. If you're going to get rid of the cyanuric acid that's left over, my only advice would be to use some sort of disposable container, preferably metal. Cyanuric acid, when cooled, looks and feels like hardened plaster, and is just as much fun to clean out of glassware.

Bert - 16-10-2016 at 22:20

Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
Hello All,

I am looking for 26-29% Ammonium Hydroxide.

I am quite surprised by how expensive it is, I bought a liter from ebay for about $20.

I know this chemical is used in industry extensively, and in vast quantities, so I am surprised at the difficulty of acquisition.

It does not need to be lab grade.


After another search this is the cheapest I can find.. but they want $25 for shipping: http://www.hvchemical.com/ammonium-hydroxide-28-1-gal-aqua-a...

I live in a town of over a million in the States, are there any types of stores you think I would have luck with?

Or other websites?



Blueprint developer is about the cheapest, strogest ammonia solution commonly available OTC.

28% cost about $64.00 for a case of 4 gallons, plus about $7.00 for a local courier company to deliver, last time I needed some.

Try looking for a blueprint machine/supply store, ask at a local graphic materials supplier, enginering supply, etc. if you can't find it online. A local purchase without outrageous shipping should be possible in just about any decent sized USA metro area.





7a6984_8d82639cc340055f0395c9b176433195.jpg - 63kB

MineMan - 17-10-2016 at 21:37

Bert,

Thank you much!

NitratedKittens - 15-12-2016 at 08:58

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid  
Less than 5% of it actually ionizes to give ammonium ions and hydroxide ions.

Huh ?

Ammonia dissolves up to 47 w% in ice cold water.

Is that not the same as making Ions ?

Is dissolution not the same as ion-making ?
(well, it wasn't for the monasteries i guess)

I can feel an 'aga is a dumfuk' moment about to happen (again).

No, actually what what happens when ammonia hits water is hydrogen bonds form between the lone pairs on the ammonia and the hydrogens on the water and vice-versa this is why water has such a great affinity for ammonia.

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