Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Alternatives to Nitrogen.

Alternatives to Nitrogen.

NEMO-Chemistry - 13-2-2017 at 17:09

I cant easily get Nitrogen (no jokes please), I need to transfer and sample some microbes. This is methane related, so I wanted to know if Hydrogen would work instead of Nitrogen?

I understand the small risk (small amounts involved), but as Hydrogen can easily be made on demand and on a small scale, can anyone see any reason not to use it to exclude Oxygen?

As its such a stupid question I will expand it slightly, I am pretty positive it would work, but you know how sometimes you think about ways around a problem, then you begin to doubt your right.

Thats kind of the situation, yes I could simply try it. Except I have had a really hard time getting this culture going, if I mess it up now I would throw the towel in with it.

Anyway thank you in advance. And sorry if its really stupid to ask!

NEMO-Chemistry - 13-2-2017 at 17:13

Just as a side note.................

I had always Assumed that cows fart methane, so obvious place to looks for bugs is cow shit. Months of failure looking for the bug I wanted made me turn to vet books, as I am sure you lot know cows actually belch more Methane than they fart.

Significance? Well the bug I was after is at the opposite end, so its taken ages to get a culture that wasnt dead.
And no this isnt actually about making Methane, its about a particular bug thats all (One i cant spell!).

JJay - 13-2-2017 at 17:17

I've wondered about using hydrogen as the atmosphere for doing metal hydride reductions before. I think it would work, but hydrogen is actually a pretty dangerous gas to work with. It's extremely flammable and tends to gather in high places like along the ceiling. Also, when you generate hydrogen, you'll need to purify it.

You can also generate nitrogen. From what I remember, it can be generated in extremely pure form from azides, and you can also generate it from sulfamic acid and sodium nitrite, although it will require some purification.

NEMO-Chemistry - 13-2-2017 at 18:05

Quote: Originally posted by JJay

I've wondered about using hydrogen as the atmosphere for doing metal hydride reductions before. I think it would work, but hydrogen is actually a pretty dangerous gas to work with. It's extremely flammable and tends to gather in high places like along the ceiling. Also, when you generate hydrogen, you'll need to purify it.

You can also generate nitrogen. From what I remember, it can be generated in extremely pure form from azides, and you can also generate it from sulfamic acid and sodium nitrite, although it will require some purification.

Thanks for that.

I did consider making Nitrogen, but getting hold of sulfamic acid is likely a mare in the UK, I just thought Hydrogen was very cheap to make in small amounts, very easy and obtainable.

Quantity wise we are looking at a couple of 500ml conical flask type containers. Its kind of 'jam jar' scale, so i didnt think the amount would be an issue.

Its an attractive idea on a small scale, my main problem is I have half convinced myself it wont work! I guess I could use Propane?? Or maybe its Butane in lighter refill cans?

I got the starter culture from a slaughter house, but its been a real PITA and taken ages to get to this point. Dont get me wrong I am not doing anything that interesting (except to me), but you know how sometimes you put so much effort in...........I would be gutted to mess it up now

JJay - 13-2-2017 at 18:10

Probably best to just buy it if you need it for something critical

NEMO-Chemistry - 13-2-2017 at 18:42

Quote: Originally posted by JJay

Probably best to just buy it if you need it for something critical

The problem is getting hold of it in small amounts. Here it costs a fair bit for a cylinder.

Sorry my last post seems to read a bit rude?? Not sure why, rudeness isnt intended. Quantity wise we are probably looking at 1-2 balloons full (party type not people carrying type

).

You would be surprised just how hard it is to get simple things around here, no decent sized towns for a long way.

Well I cant let it sit there forever, its declining as it is. So bite the bullet and try it I guess. As long as there is no Oxygen, I dont think it matters too much what else is in it (now watch that statement come back and bite me! lol).

Actually Butane might be better, its cheap and the small cans for lighters are cheap and pretty pure.... Sod it I will try it Friday! I should know within a few days if its worked or not.

Thanks for the comments, BTW much appreciated.

vmelkon - 13-2-2017 at 23:27

Heat copper powder in air and it will remove the O2, leaving you mostly N2 and Ar. To get rod of CO2, use NaOH solution.

wg48 - 13-2-2017 at 23:53

Nemo:

Sulfamic acid is readily available in the UK from ebay and Amazon at about £10/500g

WGTR - 14-2-2017 at 02:13

Quote: Originally posted by vmelkon

Heat copper powder in air and it will remove the O2, leaving you mostly N2 and Ar. To get rod of CO2, use NaOH solution.

You beat me to it. I was going to suggest, well, that we ARE surrounded by a 79% mix of it. If one doesn't want to heat copper powder, then one way that I remove oxygen from air is with acidic cuprous chloride. It would still be necessary to wash with NaOH, and dry.

Having said that, even if air is washed through a few bottles of CuCl solution, it's likely still necessary to scrub the remaining bits of oxygen with a heated copper catalyst with maybe a 2% mix of hydrogen in nitrogen. This is followed by a desiccant bed to remove moisture. It all depends on how sensitive your microbes are to oxygen.

battoussai114 - 14-2-2017 at 03:50

Some have built pressure swing adsorption system to get a steady feed of decent quality nitrogen. It'd be a lenghty build though...
Alternatively there is this reaction:

NH4Cl + NaNO2 → N2 + NaCl + 2 H2O

From here http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ed044p475
I'd guess you'd need a wet scrubber to ensure the evolving gas is free of contaminants, but still relatively simple.

Heavy Walter - 14-2-2017 at 04:13

Easier would be to use CO2 from dry ice.
You can buy small quantities at ice cream stores.
Or use compressed CO2 that is sold in small containers for different uses.

MrHomeScientist - 14-2-2017 at 06:26

I was going to suggest CO<sub>2</sub> also. If your only aim is to exclude oxygen, it's heavier than air and easy to make or buy.

Praxichys - 14-2-2017 at 07:46

CO2 is a bad idea for cell cultures. It will rapidly make everything acidic and probably wipe it out. You truly need an inert gas like nitrogen, but I'm sure argon would also work. Argon is sold cheaply at welding shops everywhere. But, I suppose if you could afford to buy an argon bottle, you could probably afford a nitrogen bottle as well.

Iron powder is great at eating up oxygen when treated with certain salts. It is the basis of operation for many disposable hand warmers. You might try opening up a bunch of those and packing a column with that material, and use a fish tank compressor to blow air through it.

DrP - 14-2-2017 at 08:18

Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry

I cant easily get Nitrogen (no jokes please),

What country are you in? I bought a large cylinder of it for about £20 from B.O.C. last year. It is one of the cheapest and easiest to buy. If you live in the UK just ring them and place an order.

Melgar - 14-2-2017 at 10:51

Could you just use propane as your inert gas? Sure, it's flammable, but it's not like we don't know what precautions to take when dealing with a flammable gas. The ethyl mercaptan or whatever they put in gas to make it smell would be at an extremely low concentration. Plus, it has the benefit of being able to smell it if there are leaks.

edit: just realized that's what OP was suggesting and nobody seems to have answered him. I've considered using propane as an inert gas for reactions myself, at least when the scale is small enough that it poses little if any danger. If you're not using fire around it, I see no reason why it shouldn't work.

As for removing oxygen from air, one convenient way to do it is with those "Hot Hands" single-use hand warmers. They contain reduced iron powder, and some moisture and salt in order to catalyze the iron oxidation. If you wanted to remove the oxygen faster without generating CO2, you could ignite steel wool or magnesium. Eventually the metal would stop burning when the oxygen was gone.

[Edited on 2/14/17 by Melgar]

NEMO-Chemistry - 14-2-2017 at 13:32

Quote: Originally posted by DrP

Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry

I cant easily get Nitrogen (no jokes please),

What country are you in? I bought a large cylinder of it for about £20 from B.O.C. last year. It is one of the cheapest and easiest to buy. If you live in the UK just ring them and place an order.

What size was this? I did ring them a while back and was told you had to hire cylinders, maybe i asked for the wrong thing?? They wanted £20+ a month rental and around £85 for the gauge, then the gas on top.

Someone else mentioned buying a cylinder from them, so I must be ringing the wrong division or depot.

If I can buy it for that kind of money then its the way I will go, the reason I havnt done it was the rental costs as I dont need much.

thanks for all the suggestions, CO2 does indeed seem to kill most methane cultures off. I thought of hydrogen because it was simple, and the quantity i need is small.

I will have another go at calling BOC and see if I can buy instead of rent a cylinder.

Thanks alot guys you have given me alot of options.

I have got myself a bit muddled with this now, its taken so long to get this far (far far longer than it should have), I cant see the wood for the trees now lol.

PHILOU Zrealone - 14-2-2017 at 15:01

H2 should be fine.
CO2 too.

Maybe use methane, ethane, propane, butane or ethylen, propylen, butadien or acetylen.
Alternatively Helium or Argon.

H2S may be too crictical but is often present next to CH4 into anaerobic riots.

ziqquratu - 14-2-2017 at 15:40

Many hardware stores around the world sell small (around 500mL) cylinders of argon for reasonably cheap (not cheap compared to a larger cylinder, of course, but perhaps cheap enough for your purpose). They're similar to the small propane cylinders for hand-held blowtorches or camping stoves.

j_sum1 - 14-2-2017 at 16:16

Another source for argon is wine shops. Cans of Ar are sold to fill the head space of opened bottles of wine so that they last longer.
https://www.danmurphys.com.au/product/DM_365521/winesave-som...

It is an expensive source on a mass basis but the cans are really convenient and a cheap option if all you need is a small amount.

NEMO-Chemistry - 14-2-2017 at 19:24

Great suggestions guys and thanks alot, I know its difficult for many to understand this, but I honestly live a long way from anything resembling a hardware shop.

The closest we get is farm supply shops, most farms have welding and cutting gear, but they get large cylinders delivered and they are rentals. I do occasionally go into the city but thats 4-5 hours round trip, ebay was good and so was Amazon. but the postage these days up here is a fair bit.

I am really glad I asked though, hearing the suggestions makes sense now. But I got to the point where I was unsure. Lighter gas came to mind, but it seemed too simple a solution, maybe because Nitrogen is mentioned in most books.

One reaction above that interests me is the Copper one. I know it says powder but would fine copper wires work? If it has to be powder, what kind of heat are we looking at?

My thinking is heating a container (no idea which yet), containing copper powder, using say nichrome wire to heat the container and therefore the copper.

I doubt its much use for this application, but I can see applications where passing air over something like that could be handy. I dont post much these days, dont know if it was Blogfast getting some trouble or what. But anyone else starting to feel like they are doing something 'wrong' every time they mix Bicard and vinegar?

Sorry I am going off topic

, just all feels like a witch hunt going on.

Not sure if my project counts as chemistry, and Methane production (small scale) isnt exactly exciting, but if I get this final culture working, I will post it up if anyone is interested.

NEMO-Chemistry - 14-2-2017 at 19:26

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1

Another source for argon is wine shops. Cans of Ar are sold to fill the head space of opened bottles of wine so that they last longer.
https://www.danmurphys.com.au/product/DM_365521/winesave-som...

It is an expensive source on a mass basis but the cans are really convenient and a cheap option if all you need is a small amount.

I didnt know that! ironically we do have a home brew shop in town.......Might be a good place to mooch for other Chems as well

WGTR - 15-2-2017 at 08:52

Again, I'm not sure how sensitive your microbes are to oxygen, nor do I have the experience to make that determination. Possibly, a small can of argon, or propane, might work for you, even if it isn't ultra high purity or something like that.

As to the question about copper, the reason for it to be in powder form is simply that of surface area. Its reaction with oxygen will be faster and more complete at a lower temperature (250-350°C). Copper wire would probably never react fully through its own bulk, except at very high temperatures and long periods of time. Keep in mind that isolating an inert gas can end up being just as much of a project as the one you're already working on, if not more so.

Anyway, another place to find argon is in light bulbs. If you have old burned-out incandescent bulbs, one could break the bulbs underwater (by placing a flat-head screwdriver at the base of the bulb, and then wacking it sharply with a hammer) and harvest the gasses in a bag. I wouldn't recommend using brand-new bulbs for that, but this project might be an excuse to replace some burned-out ones. Generally, the bulbs that have tight, coiled-up filaments contain argon; the ones with a long-straight, wire filament, contain a vacuum.

If you want to go fancy with isolating nitrogen, this can be scaled up:

https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=55...

The catalyst beads can be reduced to copper with hydrogen or alcohol vapors, and then the gas stream switched to air to remove its oxygen. Enough catalyst beads would need to be used to give you enough nitrogen to work with, more than what I used in the link. Or, the same depleted air can be passed multiple times through the repeatedly regenerated catalyst bed, until no color change occurs in the catalyst (from oxidation).

[Edited on 2-15-2017 by WGTR]

Amos - 15-2-2017 at 10:40

If you break a lightbulb or two inside a plastic bag or bottle filled with water, you can collect a mixture of nitrogen and argon at the top and with a little rudimentary engineering, force it into a system. Of course you won't end up with completely oxygen-free air this way, but something tells me that 1 or 2 percent isn't going to make too big of a difference to most living things.

NEMO-Chemistry - 15-2-2017 at 12:42

The transfer is from liquid to liquid, so the simple solution is to just force out some of the liquid with the gas. the airline has a one way aquarium type valve, so I dont have to worry about any oxygen in the container itself.

I found some cheap argon cylinders from the wine shop. No idea what I thought was inside light bulbs (a vacuum I suppose), I didnt know it was/could be Nitrogen.

Some oxygen for most Methogens isnt the end of the world, however for some it is. I need to look the name up again, but one of the ones I am trying to isolate produces Hydrogen Sulphide in some conditions, but methane in others (different pathways).

In the bottom of lakes and other various places, it lives very happily and has no problems, but trying to isolate it!!!! utter nightmare. Its been alot of work, especially for something that is nothing more than fun/curiosity.

I appreciate the answers, I had kind of lost confidence in what I was doing. I am going to split the cultures into 4 and try a different gas with each.

PHILOU Zrealone - 15-2-2017 at 13:59

Liquid to liquid...then simply avoid any gas....only use liquid boiled water for example (almost O2 and N2 free...and sterilized)...use a seringe filled with that water to displace the fluid in front of it to the other location and on the other side use another empty seringe and pump the liquid...simple liquid transfert.

[Edited on 15-2-2017 by PHILOU Zrealone]

clearly_not_atara - 15-2-2017 at 15:15

Is helium available near you? It's much more common than nitrogen at the consumer level since it's used to fill balloons; try party stores. Definitely not cheap, though.

You can use p-aminophenol instead of sulfamic acid to generate nitrogen. P-aminophenol is notable because it can be formed by hydrolysing paracetamol, which I'm certain that you have access to. You do still need NaNO2 though.

paracetamol + NaOH >> p-aminophenol + NaOAc

p-aminophenol + NaNO2 [pH 7] >> p-hydroxybenzenediazonium >> hydroquinone + nitrogen

Note that the p-hydroxybenzenediazonium salt is light-sensitive and should not be isolated or concentrated too much in solution as violent decomposition is a risk. However I think it is less likely to kill you than H2.

PHILOU Zrealone - 15-2-2017 at 18:26

At clearly_not_atara,
It will not work the way you think it will...
Para-amino-phenol when diazotized will form a relatively stable diazo-oxide...see the vast DDNP tread into the energetic section and specifically iso-picramic acid diazotation

NEMO-Chemistry - 15-2-2017 at 18:44

Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone

Liquid to liquid...then simply avoid any gas....only use liquid boiled water for example (almost O2 and N2 free...and sterilized)...use a seringe filled with that water to displace the fluid in front of it to the other location and on the other side use another empty seringe and pump the liquid...simple liquid transfert.

[Edited on 15-2-2017 by PHILOU Zrealone]

Sorry I was totally unclear in what I was saying. I need a head space of around 25%, but I can start with a completely filled container and push the liquid out. That would leave me with a space at the top filled with my non oxygen gas.

it is done now..........Wine shop Argon, and one 250ml flask with Hydrogen at the top.

This gives me a few weeks to revisit Nitrogen, if the cultures take. Next step is the one I am reading up on now, how to isolate into single cultures.

From the papers I read it sounds like a hypo pushed into the medium (test tube agar). A sealed glove box would be very handy, but easier said than done.

I think I will have to try some of the other methods mentioned though, some interesting ideas for making Nitrogen.

Shame about the paracetamol, I think they might allow you a couple of tablets of that in the UK!

I kid you not though, Ebay is the aspirin and paracetamol place, shops here are restricted to something like 16 tablets at a time! plus you have to be 18 (16 by law, but shops want over 18 ID).

They blame the EU laws, but here in the UK we seem to enforce the EU laws to the letter. I thought coming out of the EU (if it happens), would solve the problem, but I think we are going to keep all the existing laws.

Well except the ones that help people I guess. Sorry if thats a bit political, I feel a bit cheated when I read what some of you can get in shops easily.

Cezium - 16-2-2017 at 00:48

anaerobes, slaughterhouse, cattle... smells like anthrax to me, or maybe c.botx?

PHILOU Zrealone - 16-2-2017 at 03:28

Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry

Shame about the paracetamol, I think they might allow you a couple of tablets of that in the UK!

I kid you not though, Ebay is the aspirin and paracetamol place, shops here are restricted to something like 16 tablets at a time! plus you have to be 18 (16 by law, but shops want over 18 ID).

They blame the EU laws, but here in the UK we seem to enforce the EU laws to the letter. I thought coming out of the EU (if it happens), would solve the problem, but I think we are going to keep all the existing laws.

Well except the ones that help people I guess. Sorry if thats a bit political, I feel a bit cheated when I read what some of you can get in shops easily.

Don't tell lies or propagate stupid rumors...it has nothing to do with EU...and must be only UK related...

Here in Belgium center of the EU, you can buy in pharmacy-shop paracetamol or aspirin (last week I bought one box of 120*1g paracetamol pills at 11,5€ (120g for 11,5€ that is fair) and 40*0,5g pills of Acetyl salycilic acid (aspirin) thus 20g for about the same price)...no ID card requested.

I needed this to start experimenting with iso-DDNP and picric acid to make picramic acid and normal DDNP.I want to work on related explosive diazo-oxides and nitranilic acid....I will try to get some unmade to date bis-diazo-dinitro-phenoxide.
Only study...no terrorist act.

[Edited on 16-2-2017 by PHILOU Zrealone]

DrP - 16-2-2017 at 04:58

He's not lying about the availability - you can't buy more than 2 packs of pain killer at the CO-OP. I do not know if it is the law or if it is just their policy. He say's that 'they' told him it was the EU law - maybe 'they' were wrong, idk, I'd have to look it up, but being honest I am not too worried about it. There is nothing to stop you buying 2 packs and then going back 5 mins later for more.

Tsjerk - 16-2-2017 at 05:12

Quote: Originally posted by Cezium

anaerobes, slaughterhouse, cattle... smells like anthrax to me, or maybe c.botx?

What are you talking about? Any cattle you would extract anthracis from would be a heap of pussing dead flesh. Ever seen an anthrax infection? Not very pleasant. For this species you look in grasslands, not in cattle.

Clostridium botulinum also makes no sense, as cattle infected with it won't make its way to the slaughterhouse. I think it was pretty clear from the start the OP is talking about methanogens.

Please don't accuse people of growing bio-weapons if you don't know what you're talking about.

Edit: and since when is B. anthracis anaerobe?

[Edited on 16-2-2017 by Tsjerk]

Cezium - 16-2-2017 at 05:46

Such hate from ein deutschman. I haven't accuse anyone, just saying what these words evoke to me. I am sure that you can get both spores in cattle slaughterhouse. Havent seen anthrax infection in vivo, just held petri dish once.

facultative anaerob

[Edited on 16-2-2017 by Cezium]

NEMO-Chemistry - 16-2-2017 at 07:37

There you go
http://www.nhs.uk/chq/pages/1325.aspx?categoryid=73&subc...

16 pain killers from a supermarket and 32 if you buy from a chemist! Dr P apparently is actually law!

And post 2 I would have thought made it clear what I was doing!

" Just as a side note.................

I had always Assumed that cows fart methane, so obvious place to looks for bugs is cow shit. Months of failure looking for the bug I wanted made me turn to vet books, as I am sure you lot know cows actually belch more Methane than they fart.

Significance? Well the bug I was after is at the opposite end, so its taken ages to get a culture that wasnt dead.
And no this isnt actually about making Methane, its about a particular bug thats all (One i cant spell!)."

Its a simple methane experiment, based on the fact I found out cows burp more methane than they fart. So the microbes are a bit different in the first two stomachs........No point repeating the thread. I havnt spread any misinformation, the restriction of most chemicals are EU directives, the UK is apparently the only place that actually applies the laws though.

So paracetamol being a chemical....makes sense to me to be a EU rule, Aga can buy most chems in a flower shop, but he is in the EU. As I said its mainly the anal UK that takes it to extremes.

Oh and in case someone else needs the info..... I found another source of Nitrogen, Some tyre places will fill a inner tube for you, not too sure why tire places have Nitrogen, but the tyre place near to us has it. The guy did a kids swimming ring for me free.

DrP - 16-2-2017 at 07:53

Cheers Nemo.

Seems you are right - they ignore these laws in Brussels then? lol - we enforce every one... which is probably why people voted Brexit. I personally voted to remain, but the attitude of giving people a bollocking everytime they complain about an over enforced law or complain about something is probably what alienates them and forces them to ignore the positives too. I have a few issues with some of the EU laws... and if I bring them up in front of anyone who voted to remain they start shouting, but I voted to stay all the same and would do again. See how you get accused of lying and spreading rumors for stating something that is just simply true. No wonder people want away from that school teacher style oppression. Shame it lead the ignorant masses into revolt.

wg48 - 16-2-2017 at 08:45

I assumed the sale of paracetamol was regulated by the EU. Apparently a false assumption probably caused by my personal experiences in France and the UK.

See https://occup-med.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12995-...

“Accessibility of the pharmaceuticals paracetamol however is not regulated by European law but by national law”

“Various EU countries permit prescription-free sales of paracetamol in pharmacies and non-pharmacy stores. In Sweden paracetamol 500 mg may be sold in both pharmacies and non-pharmacies in a maximum pack size of 20 units. In the United Kingdom (UK) paracetamol 500 mg is listed in the general sales list with a maximum pack size of 30 effervescent tablets or 16 tablets. In Ireland paracetamol 500 mg may be sold in a maximum pack size of 12 units in a non-pharmacy. In the Netherlands paracetamol 500 mg is legal to be sold in a maximum pack size of 50 units in a drug store and with a maximum of 20 units in any other non-pharmacy. Several countries in the European Union are permitted to offer paracetamol prescription-free in pharmacies and non-pharmacy stores without legal guidance on the storage position within the store.”

Gone are the days when you could buy a bottle of 250 paracetamol BP tablets for a about a couple of pounds.

Tsjerk - 16-2-2017 at 09:07

Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry

There you go
http://www.nhs.uk/chq/pages/1325.aspx?categoryid=73&subc...

I havnt spread any misinformation, the restriction of most chemicals are EU directives, the UK is apparently the only place that actually applies the laws though.

So paracetamol being a chemical....makes sense to me to be a EU rule, Aga can buy most chems in a flower shop, but he is in the EU. As I said its mainly the anal UK that takes it to extremes.

Do I get you right saying the paracetamol restrictions are EU and the UK enforcing those regulations? I think your link makes it quite obviously clear this is a UK law as the EU didn't exist in 1968.

wg48 - 16-2-2017 at 10:48

Below is the most recent UK law required to comply with EU law on controlled and reportable chemicals. Does not cover drugs like paracetamol.

I have only quoted the explosive precursors and poisons checkout the link for the others.

From https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/supplying-explosi...

"1.1 Regulated substances and concentration thresholds

Explosives precursors:

hydrogen peroxide:12% w/w
nitromethane: 30% w/w
nitric acid: 3% w/w
sodium chlorate: 40% w/w
potassium chlorate: 40% w/w
sodium perchlorate: 40% w/w
potassium perchlorate: 40% w/w

Poisons:

Aluminium phosphide
Arsenic and its compounds (other than calcium arsenites, copper acetoarsenite, copper arsenates, copper arsenites, lead arsenates)
Barium salts (other than barium sulphate, barium carbonate and barium silicofluoride)
Bromomethane
Chloropicrin
Fluoroacetic acid, its salts and fluoroacetamide
Hydrogen cyanide and metal cyanides (other than ferrocyanides and ferricyanides)
Lead acetates and compounds of lead with acids from fixed oils
Magnesium phosphide
Mercury and its compounds (including: nitrates of mercury; oxides of mercury; mercuric cyanide oxides; mercuric thiocyanate; ammonium mercuric chlorides; potassium mercuric iodides; organic compounds of mercury which contain a methyl group directly linked to the mercury atom)
Oxalic acid: 10% w/w
Phenols (phenol; phenolic isomers of the following: cresols, xylenols, monoethylphenols); compounds of phenols with a metal, 60% w/w of phenols or, for compounds of phenols with a metal, the equivalent of 60% w/w of phenols
Phosphorus yellow
Strychnine and its salts and its quaternary compounds
Thallium and its salts"

[Edited on 16-2-2017 by wg48]

Amos - 16-2-2017 at 11:53

My god, they're restricting phenol (all phenols!?) and... anything greater than 10% oxalic acid? On what grounds?

wg48 - 16-2-2017 at 13:32

Quote: Originally posted by Amos

My god, they're restricting phenol (all phenols!?) and... anything greater than 10% oxalic acid? On what grounds?

I guess the phenols are environmentally problematic. They where banned at least for home use years ago in wood preservatives (UK).

I do wonder why oxalic acid.

Look at the other lists ammonia, potassium and sodium hydroxide phosphoric acid !!!

Read the link for the fine details.

[Edited on 16-2-2017 by wg48]

NEMO-Chemistry - 16-2-2017 at 17:51

Ok its a UK law, It dosnt matter much to me who made the law. Even in the Uk we dont have parity of law within the UK, some things legal in England and Wales are not legal in Scotland.

It isnt a Joke any more, getting it wrong has serious consequences. ALL meta data is kept in the UK, if you are suspected of anything they can remotely say is terror linked, then you in a different ball game. I dont know all the rules, so some of the following might be inaccurate in some details.

But here if your arrested under suspicion of a terror related charge (say some banned chemical that can go bang), I could be hauled off without the right to see anyone (including a solicitor) for several weeks. They dont even have to inform anyone they have me.

I would hope thats reserved for the extreme end of things, but the little I know on the subject seems to imply it covers any terror related suspicion. OK I was wrong about paracetamol being a EU rule, but it hardly matters to me who made the rule.

I look at America and see you complain about the glassware laws, here you make a bang in your garden and it often dosnt end well. This isnt supposed to be a political thread, I only made the point about paracetamol because the assumption is everything is easy to get here. And yes to some extent I can get 200 paracetamol, but equallu if I was old enough to drive, I could also drive drunk.

The point being I try and avoid serious trouble. Oxalic Acid I might have, and in England your likely to get told off, here in Scotland it isnt so forgiving. You cant even have a single Beer here and drive any more........

BobD1001 - 16-2-2017 at 18:05

Why not simply buy canned argon they sell for preserving wine and paints? In the US here they sell one called "Bloxygen" and another called "Private Reserve". Both are basically just canned argon, usually with a small balance of Nitrogen designed to blanket the wine or paint, and create an barrier from oxidation.

NEMO-Chemistry - 16-2-2017 at 18:11

Quote: Originally posted by BobD1001

Why not simply buy canned argon they sell for preserving wine and paints? In the US here they sell one called "Bloxygen" and another called "Private Reserve". Both are basically just canned argon, usually with a small balance of Nitrogen designed to blanket the wine or paint, and create an barrier from oxidation.

Sorry that bit got buried

, I did say above I got some argon from the wine making shop.

But I also mentioned wanting to try out some of the other ways at some point (purely for fun). I went off topic a bit when paracetamol was mentioned.

clearly_not_atara - 17-2-2017 at 17:28

@NEMO: damn that sucks, but I don't see anything on there restricting the freedom of a consumer to stockpile paracetamol. At some point you have to bite the bullet and pay cash at a few different stores to get what you need... no, it's not legal, but neither is ~anything requiring an inert atmosphere and done without a license

Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone

At clearly_not_atara,
It will not work the way you think it will...
Para-amino-phenol when diazotized will form a relatively stable diazo-oxide...see the vast DDNP tread into the energetic section and specifically iso-picramic acid diazotation

Do you have a ref for that? Diazo compounds tend to be more stable when there's an EWG (including nitro) cf. diazoacetic acid and derivatives, or diazodiphenylmethane. I definitely looked up some refs regarding the decomposition of p-hydroxyphenyldiazonium including these:

http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/v03-088#.WKe...

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.378...

[Edited on 18-2-2017 by clearly_not_atara]

[Edited on 18-2-2017 by clearly_not_atara]

PHILOU Zrealone - 17-2-2017 at 19:03

Read the DDNP tread all you can wish for is inthere.

NEMO-Chemistry - 17-2-2017 at 20:15

Quote: Originally posted by clearly_not_atara

@NEMO: damn that sucks, but I don't see anything on there restricting the freedom of a consumer to stockpile paracetamol. At some point you have to bite the bullet and pay cash at a few different stores to get what you need... no, it's not legal, but neither is ~anything requiring an inert atmosphere and done without a license

Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone

I didnt know messing with bio digester's needed a license, then again I assume most forms of microbes are now controlled. Yes I could tock pile, but in a small town with 4 shops that sell it, dosnt take long to get noticed, especially if you also want aspirin.

They do the right thing and report it, the police turn up and find paracetamol, so no big deal. Then they find the Conc Nitric acid etc and all of a sudden it is a big deal.........

I think it was Woelen a while back, who said he was kinda giving up experimenting at home. Methane etc satisfies my curiosity for science, chemistry in the true sense is becoming out of reach.

Maybe when I am older I can move to a country where your not seen as a threat, but simply as someone who wants to learn.

Its a shame we didnt get to find out what happened to blogfast, I respect his privacy, but the info would have been a useful gauge as to how bad things currently are.

PHILOU Zrealone - 18-2-2017 at 02:43

BF will make a report soon...it is a matter of days or weeks.

NEMO-Chemistry - 19-2-2017 at 01:59

Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone

BF will make a report soon...it is a matter of days or weeks.

Thank you for letting us know, I have a feeling his information will be of great interest to those of us in the UK. I also have a nasty feeling it will be full of things we are not going to want to hear.

Still kind of beggars belief he even had his door knocked on.