Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Achtung baby: hasta la vista!

Edit: that '95% safer' statement actually came from Public Health England and is based on a paper by David Nutt. It has been criticised a lot, but whatever the real % will turn out to be, virtually all studies agree that vaping is 'a lot' less unhealthy than smoking.

Considering that a tobacco based nicotine delivery system is a ludicrous way of dispensing a bit of nicotine with a lot of 'crap', mostly toxic stuff (tar and various aromatics), the harm reduction by using a vaping propylene glycol/nicotine system sounds very, very plausible to me.

Quitting is hard. It takes a strong motivator and in most cases some support (substitute, like nico patches, spray, gum or e-liquid).

I am currently working as a consultant for the vaping industry. I have never tried it personally and think it is probably unhealthy but I hear a lot of tempting sales pitches, and it is hard to turn down paying clients... although I did turn down an apparently legitimate cannabis contract a while back.

If you have credible, evidence based informations re. the dangers of vaping, I'd like to hear them. Please provide authorative links. Thank you.

In defence of vaping:

https://www.theguardian.com/science/sifting-the-evidence/201...

http://www.nhs.uk/news/2017/02February/Pages/Long-term-vapin...

http://www.topherfield.net/vaping-safer-than-smoking/

[Edited on 18-2-2017 by blogfast25]

phlogiston - 17-2-2017 at 17:12

@JJay, You probably can't tell but it would be interesting if you could share what kind of questions they are asking you.

Current evidence indicates vaping is significantly less unhealthy than smoking tobacco cigarettes. Even if it is indeed probably not as healthy as not-vaping in an absolute sense, it does seem to offer opportunities for some smokers to quit, and the health risks associated with vaping are -much- lower. Some smokers find that it does not provide a satisfactory substitute for smoking.

Governments will hesitate to promote it. They fear that e-cigs may be a gateway for kids. If kids become addicted to nicotine, they may become smokers eventually. Authorities will have to balance the potential benefits to smokers wanting to quit against the potential (and poorly known) risk of raising another generation of nicotine addicts. Not an easy task.

[Edited on 18-2-2017 by phlogiston]

blogfast25 - 17-2-2017 at 17:22

The main concern of governments is that vaping will turn out to be a gateway for kids to become addicted to nicotine and become smokers eventually. It is not easy for them to balance the potential benefits to smokers wanting to quit against the potential (and poorly known) risk of raising another generation of nicotine addicts.

Combine this with the potential loss of revenue from tobacco taxes and Gummints have a clear motive to denounce tax-free consumption of nicotine. Gummints have very ambiguous relationships to toxic but highly taxed products like alcohol and tobacco.

[Edited on 18-2-2017 by blogfast25]

phlogiston - 17-2-2017 at 17:36

They do indeed.
But it is not trivial to asses the net impact on the gummints budget. Taxes. Employment. Smokers die young.
You speak Dutch, watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8mrAiRBmwA

JJay - 17-2-2017 at 17:45

I deal mainly with the sales department on issues related to attracting investors.

blogfast25 - 17-2-2017 at 17:54

They do indeed.
But it is not trivial to asses the net impact on the gummints budget. Taxes. Employment. Smokers die young.
You speak Dutch, watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8mrAiRBmwA

Interesting doc, phloggy. Haven't watched anything by 'de KRO' in a while now.

Smokers: "Help us, please! We're self-culling!"

[Edited on 18-2-2017 by blogfast25]

JJay - 17-2-2017 at 18:11

Anyway, definitely good to have you here! Hopefully we can discuss some actual chemistry.

blogfast25 - 17-2-2017 at 18:21

Anyway, definitely good to have you here! Hopefully we can discuss some actual chemistry.

Sure. A thread on tobacco/vaping chemistry would be chemistry too though. Unfortunately it's very hard to research the subject at the hobby level, w/o qualified access to GC/MS methods of analysis.

PHILOU Zrealone - 17-2-2017 at 18:33

Welcome back blogfast25...glad you quit smoking...now the hardest part is to keep away from temptations induced by smoking friends...or substitutes like e-cigs(*).

Glad you are cured or at least not suffering anymore.

I'm more than eager to read what happened to you to be involved into legal troubles; I guess it is chemistry related (as job or as hobby)...let's hope it will not impact the forum.

(*) My 50 cents about e-cigs:
I'm convinced that e-cigs will turn to be a health desaster in a few years...
I'm not stupid...so should any scientific people...
1°) propylen glycol or glycerol has nothing to make into pulmonary system even if tolerated by the body by mouth intake...Lemon juice, Pepper, Chilies, Vinegar or Ethanol also...but don't ever try to inhale those
2°) the end of burning of e-cig produce an overheating of PG or GL yielding few % of accrid smoke (the name accrolein does come from somewhere) and this is irritating...probably carcinogen too.
3°) all the artificial ore natural flavors/perfumes (even if food quality/approved) have also nothing to do into pulmonary system. Some flavors or perfumes can induce allergic reaction upon repeated exposure...and time will get its lot of anaphilactic choc death induced by e-cig...wait and see.
4°) all food colourizers also shouldn't belong there...again troat totally another story as lungs or breathing mucous membrane into direct contact with blood.
5°) I don't care that it is bio or natural PG or GL...Strychnine or snake venoms are also.
6°) e-cigs induce more smoking time than usual cigaret does...also it is a kind of fashion and popular now so people smoke e-cigs everywhere even at work or into public places.

[Edited on 18-2-2017 by PHILOU Zrealone]

JJay - 17-2-2017 at 18:45

Welcome back blogfast25...glad you quit smoking...now the hardest part is to keep away from temptations induced by smoking friends...or substitutes like e-cigs(*).

Glad you are cured or at least not suffering anymore.

I'm more than eager to read what happened to you to be involved into legal troubles; I guess it is chemistry related (as job or as hobby)...let's hope it will not impact the forum.

(*) My 50 cents about e-cigs:
I'm convinced that e-cigs will turn to be a health desaster in a few years...
I'm not stupid...so should any scientific people...
1°) propylen glycol or glycerol has nothing to make into pulmonary system even if tolerated by the body by mouth intake...Lemon juice, Pepper, Chilies, Vinegar or Ethanol also...but don't ever try to inhale those
2°) the end of burning of e-cig produce an overheating of PG or GL yielding few % of accrid smoke (the name accrolein does come from somewhere) and this is irritating...probably carcinogen too.
3°) all the artificial ore natural flavors/perfumes (even if food quality/approved) have also nothing to do into pulmonary system. Some flavors or perfumes can induce allergic reaction upon repeated exposure...and time will get its lot of anaphilactic choc death induced by e-cig...wait and see.
4°) all food colourizers also shouldn't belong there...again troat totally another story as lungs or breathing mucous membrane into direct contact with blood.
5°) I don't care that it is bio or natural PG or GL...Strychnine or snake venoms are also.
6°) e-cigs induce more smoking time than usual cigaret does...also it is a kind of fashion and popular now so people smoke e-cigs everywhere even at work or into public places.

[Edited on 18-2-2017 by PHILOU Zrealone]

Hey man, why don't you go sue a coffee shop or something

PHILOU Zrealone - 17-2-2017 at 19:08

Hey man, why don't you go sue a coffee shop or something

No because you can eat wheed instead of smoking it

Space cake...een lekkernij (dlicious)...The Netherlands is the neighbourg country of Belgium...only 100 km away...and frontier are open thanks to Europe :cool:

Also many people here in Belgium have their own personnal culture at home for personal use...not me but very close related persons do...

[Edited on 18-2-2017 by PHILOU Zrealone]

JJay - 17-2-2017 at 19:16

I mean a coffee shop that serves coffee. I should hardly have to point out that heart disease kills more people than cancer or car accidents, and insomnia is a subtle plague. We all know that caffeine is addictive, and who exactly do they expect to buy their marshmallow soy breves with almond syrup and other such beverages, served with tiny pastries and whatnot... it's no secret that coffee contains xanthines, which are addictive.

I'm pretty sure marijuana can cause tachycardia, although exactly how serious of a problem that is, I can't say.

[Edited on 18-2-2017 by JJay]

Sulaiman - 18-2-2017 at 00:32

I am glad to hear that things turned out better than worst-case,
nice to have you back.

Giving up smoking is easy ... I've done it many times.

Darkstar - 18-2-2017 at 01:40

Glad to see you're back! With all the medical and legal issues you've been dealing with lately, many of us were starting to get worried after not hearing from you in three months. I know aga has been trying to no avail to contact you ever since you disappeared. Fortunately, earlier this month I remembered that you had mentioned in the QM thread that you were a member over at physics.stackexchange, and I was able to go back and find the link to that question about infinite potential wells that you had responded to. Suffice it to say, it was a huge relief to see that you were still active there as of February 7, and had even made a few posts and edits within the hour.

So I figured you were alright and that your lack of communication with SM was probably voluntary and not due to something terrible like illness or incarceration. I knew you wouldn't just abandon SM like that without even so much as saying goodbye, and that you must have your reasons for being away. I'm just thankful that you're alive and well and that the worst you'll face from this whole legal fiasco is a minor fine. I also look forward to hearing more about it when you're ready.

Some smokers find that it does not provide a satisfactory substitute for smoking.

I'm no expert, but from what I understand it has to do with the lack of monoamine oxidase inhibitors in the e-cig vapor. One of the reasons cigarettes are so addictive is because the tobacco smoke also contains various MAOIs, which significantly increases the reinforcing effects of the nicotine by inhibiting monoamine oxidase enzymes A and B. This allows monoamines like dopamine, norepinephrine and serotonin to survive much longer outside of their synaptic vesicles before being destroyed by MAO-A and MAO-B, effectively prolonging their life and allowing much higher synaptic concentrations to be reached. In other words, it's not so much the nicotine itself that makes smoking tobacco so addictive, but rather the powerful synergy between the nicotine and MAOIs. E-cigs, patches and gum, on the other hand, lack this nicotine-MAOI synergy, and are much less satisfying as a consequence.

Anyway, if you're interested, below is a study that I linked to in a different thread a while back demonstrating just how significant the differences were between rats that were administered nicotine all by itself, and rats that were treated with MAOIs first and then administered nicotine:

http://www.jneurosci.org/content/25/38/8593.full

PHILOU Zrealone - 18-2-2017 at 02:26

I mean a coffee shop that serves coffee. I should hardly have to point out that heart disease kills more people than cancer or car accidents, and insomnia is a subtle plague. We all know that caffeine is addictive, and who exactly do they expect to buy their marshmallow soy breves with almond syrup and other such beverages, served with tiny pastries and whatnot... it's no secret that coffee contains xanthines, which are addictive.

I'm pretty sure marijuana can cause tachycardia, although exactly how serious of a problem that is, I can't say.

[Edited on 18-2-2017 by JJay]

But they do serve coffee or drinks too

and it is not free.

To my feeling stupidity kills even more than anything else...but there is usually no cure ...as said Einstein: "There are two things that are infinite: the Universe and the Human stupidity...I just have no proof for the first one."

[Edited on 18-2-2017 by PHILOU Zrealone]

JJay - 18-2-2017 at 02:38

"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet."

-- Abraham Lincoln

PHILOU Zrealone - 18-2-2017 at 02:51

I learn fast JJay,
I don't believe what you just wrote ... because it is on the net

JJay - 18-2-2017 at 04:20

I learn fast JJay,
I don't believe what you just wrote ... because it is on the net

de4b5804df8996fdbab4eeb593d648b2.jpg - 53kB

blogfast25 - 18-2-2017 at 04:29

@Darkstar:

Thanks so much for the kind words, it means much to me coming from a fellow BD teacher!

So you caught me out, huh? Couldn't suppress my inner physicist. I'm afraid!

Re. aga contacting me, he must have been using a defunct email address. Dan Vizine contacted me a few days ago on my regular gmail.com and I replied almost immediately.

[Edited on 18-2-2017 by blogfast25]

blogfast25 - 18-2-2017 at 04:32

@Philou:

Unless you can present actual evidence, and not mere personal opinion, I will ignore your 50 cents on ecigs/nico vaping.

Opinions are like arseholes: everyone's got one!

macckone - 18-2-2017 at 06:03

Most of the problems reported with vaping thus far have been due to exploding batteries.
Basic thermodynamic chemistry, cram enough energy into a small enough volume and it isn't stable.
Notable exceptions are neutron stars and black holes. But those have a gravitational
Containment field.

Welcome back blogfast25, you have been missed.

blogfast25 - 18-2-2017 at 06:34

Thanks macckone.

PHILOU Zrealone - 18-2-2017 at 13:30

@Philou:

Unless you can present actual evidence, and not mere personal opinion, I will ignore your 50 cents on ecigs/nico vaping.

Opinions are like arseholes: everyone's got one!

And I do care for my asshole...but obviously not everybody does...
So following you:
1°) e-cigs is good for health and riskless?
2°) It is good and riskless to inhale propylen glycol, glycerol, flavors, perfumes and colourizers...and allow all those stuffs to pass into the sinuses in close viccinity of the brain; or into the lungs mucus in direct contact with the capillarity blood vessels of the lungs?
3°) Just because some products are natural or FDA approved for mouth intake/swallowing makes them OK for that use?
4°) The accrid smell and taste when coming close to the end of the tank of e-cigs (and slighly overheated) is not dangerous to health?
5°) e-cigs are good and you would give it to childrens as Christmass gift?

I return you the compliment...what are your proofs and actual evidences that I'm wrong? :mad:

I do have simple tests for you:
-Smoke with the e-cig some 10% citric acid with a little vanillin
-Smoke some 10% vinegar with some pepper extract
-Smoke some 10% suggar with a little cinamon extract
-Smoke some gingerone
and tell us how you feel afterwards...it is all natural...for sure...but not intended to enter your respiratory tract.
No doubt you will displaying severe physiological effects before you end up the tank (what you probably will never hold more than a few seconds)...the all proof is there...nothing more to add. :mad:

We don't have enough step back to know for sure the products that are smoked into e-cigs are really innocuous...just like it was the case for cigarets and Tobacco 70 years ago...now we know but it is too late for all the people that died (and stil pass away) from cancer.

[Edited on 18-2-2017 by PHILOU Zrealone]

violet sin - 18-2-2017 at 13:52

Once while quitting ciggs, the misses and I tried an e-cig with disposable cartridges that lookd like butts. The effects were quite varrying on rush/no rush and from 0-11 on nic fix of a 0-10 scale I would say. Meaning the massproduced lill bastards were quite inconsistant. Also every time you puffed on one, it constricted your throat and decreased air volume per breath (perceived not measured). If you woke up in AM straight to puff, it was noticible. By the end of the day, I was a little horse sounding, aka gruff. Whereas not if I abstained from e-cig.

A gentleman I work with from time to time has been steady puffing those things all day every day for years, has no complaints in the matter. He has one of them big lightsaber handle looking jobs, with a few batteries always charging. Woks construction and puffs the whole day long inside or out. He seems fine, and wants to hear nothing of possible sideeffects as it saves him from actually smoking. But I wonder about users like that, how safe could it be 24/7 inhaling even the most innocuious substances? No physical issues ever?

Any how it didnt sit well with us and we werent about to drop tons of money on something we were trying to get out of the habbit of spending on. What did work,.. she got pregnant and quit immediately( no problem) and I thought about being the father of two, need to be around as long as possible. All the encouragement I needed. No nic at all, and I intend to keep our household that way indeffinitely.

blogfast25 - 18-2-2017 at 14:30

@Philou:

This is the umpteenth time you show yourself a near illiterate arsehole, incapabable of basic reasoning and shooting off mostly straw man arguments. I will therefore not waste much time on an idiot like you. Not to mention your atrocious 'Inglick'.

It is you who claims, without a shimmer of evidence offered, that vaping is harmful and it is therefore up to you to prove that, it is not up to me to disprove that. The onus is on YOU.

Re. the harmfulness of vaping, I simply don't know that (and neither do you) but note that several reputable sources claim strong harm reduction vis-a-vis smoking and very few claiming the opposite. I know that to imbeciles like you reputable, authorative etc are meaningless words because somehow you just (think you) know but to many the world doesn't work like that.

Now kindly fuck off to InfoWars and that sort of thing.

[Edited on 18-2-2017 by blogfast25]

blogfast25 - 18-2-2017 at 14:38

Quote: Originally posted by violet sin

A gentleman I work with from time to time has been steady puffing those things all day every day for years, has no complaints in the matter. He has one of them big lightsaber handle looking jobs, with a few batteries always charging. Woks construction and puffs the whole day long inside or out. He seems fine, and wants to hear nothing of possible sideeffects as it saves him from actually smoking. But I wonder about users like that, how safe could it be 24/7 inhaling even the most innocuious substances? No physical issues ever?

No doubt not vaping at all is even safer. But vague concerns do not beat actual evidence. And of the latter there is precious little, re. the toxicity of inhaling eliquid components.

Of course I want to quit vaping eventually too: if only because that's still cheaper.

I can't say I suffer any ill effects from it whatsoever, so far. That's not proof of anything of course, but it is a real and personal observation nonetheless.

[Edited on 18-2-2017 by blogfast25]

tsathoggua1 - 18-2-2017 at 14:53

I too worry about typical E-liquids, given the glycerine content, and dehydration to acrolein. Having made some of said rather nasty ass compoud as a nipper after getting one of those shitty kids chemistry sets, ended up using the sodium bisulfate to dehydrate some glycerine, and distill/condense the acrolein on a test tube scale.

I'd know that horrid stink and lachrymatory action anywhere, and when a tank containing off the shelf e-liquid runs near dry, the result is a caustic, choking vapor, that really will set you gagging. Now, I use e-liquid made from nicotine base, flavour concentrate, no coloring, and a little propylene glycol as a diluent (I like the liquid significantly stronger, than you can get off the shelf. 30-40mg/ml or sometimes a little more) and there is a MASSIVE difference in quality when using purely PG as diluent. No choking, noxious caustic lachrymatory fumes at all when you don't notice it running dry.

It is NOT the same however, as smoking tobacco. Nicotine alone actually doesn't appear to be addictive, there are traces of hamala type beta-carboline alkaloids in tobacco however that act as competitive MAOIs, selective for the type A isoform of MAO.

I've been meaning to experimenting with adding a little harmaline, tetrahydroharmine etc. to some e-liquid and see if I can make it as satisfying as a real smoke. Extraction when I get round to it, of some yage' vine (Banisteriopsis caapi) would be ideal. Harmala seed is less preferable since it contains various other alkaloids, some acting as adrenergic bronchodilators that would contaminate the experiment, That or synthesize some using the appropriately substituted indole and pictec-spengler reaction, which typically occurs for people trying to make DMT via eschweiler-clarke methylation of tryptamine.

For once, perhaps the pictet-spengler rxn could actually be put to use rather than serving to screw people's DMT syntheses up

blogfast25 - 18-2-2017 at 15:27

Quote: Originally posted by tsathoggua1

I too worry about typical E-liquids, given the glycerine content, and dehydration to acrolein. Having made some of said rather nasty ass compoud as a nipper after getting one of those shitty kids chemistry sets, ended up using the sodium bisulfate to dehydrate some glycerine, and distill/condense the acrolein on a test tube scale.

This is a concern I share and it has been reported many times. The formation of acrolein from glycerine does seem to occur only at high temperatures and of course not when using propylene glycol as a carrier.

No doubt a comparative GC/MSGC study of the 'best' eliquid vapours generated by decent equipment and smoke generated by fags would be enormously useful. Considering the expertise required, equipment needed and cost involved in conducting such a study, I'm not waiting with baited breath though...

30-40 mg/ml seems very high to me: I currently blend 50/50 by volume two eliquids of 6 mg and 12 mg to get 9 mg/ml and find it strong enough.

Quote: Originally posted by tsathoggua1

Nicotine alone actually doesn't appear to be addictive, there are traces of hamala type beta-carboline alkaloids in tobacco however that act as competitive MAOIs, selective for the type A isoform of MAO.

That appears to be correct. It is in any case difficult to separate the effects of psychological addiction from physiological addiction. I experienced this strongly when kicking the fag habit: the reflex to reach for the stinky sticks is almost Pavlovian!

[Edited on 18-2-2017 by blogfast25]

tsathoggua1 - 18-2-2017 at 16:00

I find it depends a lot on the battery. And biigger, more powerful batteries more easily overheat with glycerine, and one overheated drag can ruin a tank full of fag juice.

9mg/ml? bloody hell. I've tried liquids dilute like that, and ended up squirting a pippete full of nicotine into the bottle, because it was utter shite. I'd be climbing the walls if it was so low, personally.

What do you think of my idea of spiking the e-liquid with a little dash of harmala alkaloids? to simulate proper tobacco, easy enough to obtain, from Caapi vine, which is made available thanks to those who use ayahuasca brews (tried aya twice actually, although using P.harmala seeds and Mimosa hostillis rootbark as DMT source. tasted absolutely disgusting and very unlike smoked DMT, which is lovely, absolutely delightful afterglow, thats highly euphoric, and almost opioid-like in the complete relaxation it produces after coming back down from wherever the hell one's psyche gets fired into when smoking DMT. Per os, it really wasn't much different from psilocybin mushrooms, and that delicious afterglow just wasn't there. I found it a waste of DMT.

aga - 18-2-2017 at 16:12

Very very happy that bloggers is alive and well, and again free to post on SM.

A bit of research says your house has not been sold in the past few years, so i will send your trophy there.

The accolade of the SM members is the Main thing, but a trophy to remember the event is always nice, and you deserve the respect.

That said, i bid you all thank you, goodbye, and good luck with your Chemistry - if anyone ever does any.

PHILOU Zrealone - 18-2-2017 at 16:16

No doubt not vaping at all is even safer. But vague concerns do not beat actual evidence. And of the latter there is precious little, re. the toxicity of inhaling eliquid components.

Of course I want to quit vaping eventually too: if only because that's still cheaper.

I can't say I suffer any ill effects from it whatsoever, so far. That's not proof of anything of course, but it is a real and personal observation nonetheless.

So we both agree. And that was my point...not that e-cig is less worst (better) than cigaret is.

I'm for the freedom of ideas and expression...and as such I let people choose their poison, way of life or death.

Sorry for my bad Inglick...your Freunchès and Fleamisch must be as worst.

blogfast25 - 18-2-2017 at 16:22

Sorry for my bad Inglick...your Freunchès and Fleamisch must be as worst.

No, I bet my Flemish is better than yours: I'm a Flemish Belgian, you twit!

"I'm for the freedom of ideas and expression."

Yeah, you must be the only one. (rolls eyes to heaven).

And NO: we DON'T agree: learn to read.

GO AWAY, stupid person.

[Edited on 19-2-2017 by blogfast25]

The_Davster - 18-2-2017 at 16:56

@Philou:

you show yourself a near illiterate arsehole, incapabable of basic reasoning and shooting off mostly straw man arguments. I will therefore not waste much time on an idiot like you. Not to mention your atrocious 'Inglick'.

......

Now kindly fuck off ......

you twit!

..........

GO AWAY, stupid person.

Have some decorum. You may have been gone for a while but we have civil discussions.

Sulaiman - 18-2-2017 at 17:08

Quote: Originally posted by aga

That said, i bid you all thank you, goodbye, and good luck with your Chemistry - if anyone ever does any.

WTF !

patience friend .....

PHILOU Zrealone - 18-2-2017 at 18:11

Quote: Originally posted by The_Davster