Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Goverment possibly tainting Hydrogen Perxoide to stop TATP, HMTD, DADP, MEKP.

CalAm - 30-3-2017 at 10:45

I was looking around on the web for food grade hydrogen peroxide and stumbled upon a pdf file from:

http://www.northeastern.edu/alert/assets/F1_p5_Oxley_Smith_3...

Talking about adding GRAS (Generally regarded as safe) chemicals to commercial hydrogen peroxide's so that if it is heated to concentrate it or added to acetone it will decompose the HP or affect the yield and purity of the product. They seem to be targeting TATP mainly but do talk of others (HMTD, DADP, MEKP). I wonder if this has already been effecting some of the users here ?

I know some people have conflicts on how friction sensitive their TATP is and have had it detonate while drying or even looking at it wrongly. While others say it takes a fair few good wacks with a hammer to set it off ?

Anyway if anyone has any idea as to what chemicals they might be adding to the HP to have this kind of outcome it would be interesting to know, and maybe run some tests on HP that has been concentrated from 3% and maybe lab supplied HP of 35% ?

EDIT:

I have found more pdf files talking about the additives that could be used. And that they had used Oxy-Boost to make TATP previously. :o

http://www.northeastern.edu/alert/assets/F1-A1_2012.pdf

a. Sodium peroxoborate
b. Peroxosulfuric acids
c. Peroxophosphoric acids and their salts

3. Hydrogen Peroxide Additions
Percarbonates
Urea peroxohydrate


[Edited on 30-3-2017 by CalAm]

JJay - 30-3-2017 at 10:56

Aw why can't the gubbermint mind its own damn biziness.

There are some published papers on the subject cited in that presentation. I am sure at least some of them would say what the tested additives are.

I'm not sure why anyone would want to make TATP... assuming you can get or make some nitric acid, you can make better explosives, or at least you can make ones that are easier to handle.

XeonTheMGPony - 30-3-2017 at 11:02

Ah another useless do nothing but feel good venture to waste more money and drive costs up. When will the nany statismists learn all they do is make the ones who want to do harm simply switch to vehicles and for those of use who don't just makes us take one more purifying step! Plus annoyance at the utter uselessness of such things.


@ JJ atm I use HMTD for the first stage of my blasting caps, but once I get more gear and some chemicals will make azides as it is indeed far superior and need much less to make a reliable cap.

[Edited on 30-3-2017 by XeonTheMGPony]

CalAm - 30-3-2017 at 11:05

Well it looks like they are trying to collect all the peroxide formers used for TATP and make a database for shops or police to look out for:

( The work specific to TATP synthesis is expected to be transitioned directly to the DHS and first responders.
The goal is to produce a database of known peroxide formers which can be used for TATP or other peroxide
based explosives synthesis. We have shared some of these new synthetic pathways with local first responders and are even performing training with the local bomb squads on both large scale explosives and small
scale synthesis )

But what you said is true, once you have KNO3 or Ammonium nitrate and sulfuric acid you really don't have any need for peroxide based comps. I guess someone has to round up all the kewl's though ? ;)

clearly_not_atara - 30-3-2017 at 12:31

How hard is it to get barium these days? Barium peroxide isn't too dangerous, right?

Texium - 30-3-2017 at 13:30

I'd say this is actually a good measure. No legitimate amateur chemist should want to make acetone peroxide... Concentrating 3% peroxide is very inefficient anyway. It'll still be possible to buy more concentrated peroxide, e.g. the pool cleaning type, which is already adulterated with stabilizers anyway (though said stabilizers haven't given me any problems when using it in the past for stuff like isolating bromine).

CalAm - 30-3-2017 at 14:24

I just hope they can find a way to filter and remove all of those TATP video's off of youtube as i have seen in the side bar 50g and 500g videos advertised, and wonder how people can be so ignorant of such a dangerous explosive and handle such quantity's with such carelessness .

PHILOU Zrealone - 30-3-2017 at 15:37

H2O2 can be made from BaO2 or CaO2 and H2SO4.
BaO2 and CaO2 can be made from CaO and BaO...good luck for the governement to stop those.

Also I'm ROFLOL when I read the provided study and your title "tainting Hydrogen Perxoide (PEROXIDE btw) to stop TATP, HMTD, DADP, MEKP"...do you really think terrorist do care that the CTAP being blue, green, yellow or white/colourless as it should be?

All the adulterants proposed into the first link are easily extracted from aceton by simple evaporation condensation...some can't be used into H2O2 because they would cause immediate decomposition.

Any chemist skilled into its art would circumvent all governement efforts to preclude use of H2O2/aceton to make CTAP.
Also stopping terrorist to play with H2O2/aceton (easily tracked from buying place, not powerful and sometimes lethal to the makers...so making part of the anti-terrorism work) will drive terrorists to safer/more powerful and easily accessible semtex or C4 (available from neightbourgs countries onto the black market...and it is proven that such terrorist organisation have a lot of money).

CalAm - 30-3-2017 at 18:32

I do not think any terrorist would care if their explosives came out violet or aqua blue, but i was interested to hear what SM members had to say about it and to let them know that using store bought H202 for a quick det cap or experimenting with peroxides would be interested to know that the government is trying to find ways to taint public sources of H202 just in case it is used for any wrong doing.

But yes i do agree if it does come down to it H202 is quiet easy to synth and it really is just throwing money into the wind to even bother funding this kind of research.

XeonTheMGPony - 30-3-2017 at 18:35

Terrorists have learned bombs are crappy at making mass casualties hence the rise of them using Vehicles, lets ban CARS!

I make MEKP, as it is used to kick off fiberglass hardening, ironically it is easier to just make off a batch as it is cheaper then me driving to buy more of it from the fiber glass shop!

https://www.tapplastics.com/product/fiberglass/polyester_res...

That and I'm lazy I do enough driving for work!

CalAm - 30-3-2017 at 18:52

Yup, i saw just recently that terrorists are now starting to weaponize the new phantom drone's to drop mortar shells on vehicles and groups of soldiers. The government always seems to be 1 step behind them and usually when they pass a law to prevent what has happened previously it affects a whole lot of innocent workers and businesses and promotes chemphobia.

XeonTheMGPony - 30-3-2017 at 18:57

I all ways tell people it is to take away their rights for their safety, after all the criminals and terrorists ALL WAYS follow the rules after all! <_<

He who will trade rights for safety, shall gain neither and lose both!

but the gullible sheeple happily oblige, they forget it is the shepherds job to keep them safe, till he is ready to slaughter them! One of the symptoms of the droves of SJW's we have too, the dumbing down and pussyfying of society, only thing that scares them to death is the idea of personal responsibility!

Nope they all seem to beg big brother to take away more of their freedoms and to coddle them more.

It disgusts me honestly, both what the government does and how happy the people apload them while they do it!

[Edited on 31-3-2017 by XeonTheMGPony]

[Edited on 31-3-2017 by XeonTheMGPony]

byko3y - 30-3-2017 at 22:00

Sheeple already lost their rights and they don't want to get them back, because cattle does not want to have responsibility, I see no way for it to change in the nearest 5 years. If you are not agree then you can just accept and maybe make your own paddock. And, surely, you can write angry comments, though it won't change anything.

PS: aren't those contaminations lead to faster decomposition of hydrogen peroxide? I don't believe then completely stop working when the solution is cold.
PPS: and I see no problem with concentration of 3% peroxide. Surely, I suppose you use vacuum and some kind of a simple distillation column.

[Edited on 31-3-2017 by byko3y]

Uriel - 31-3-2017 at 10:55

I've already synthesized a quite big quantity of TATP with Peroxosulfuric acid without catalyst because it was already in acid medium.
Only Acetone and Peroxosulfuric acid. But, I prefer H2O2, crystals are more tapered.

By the way, you have an idea of video of 500g of TATP ?

[Edited on 31-3-2017 by Uriel]

CalAm - 1-4-2017 at 03:24

900g - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC79isLbZ34

500g tatp plastic so (460g) - https://youtu.be/3Z9wG9XbW2k

XeonTheMGPony - 1-4-2017 at 05:55

Ah natural selection in progress seeing allot of those videos, idiots like that make all us into DIY blasting look like fools <_<

People ask why we can't enjoy good things? Becuase of ignorant Kwels like those!

macckone - 1-4-2017 at 10:35

The problem with adding decomposition agents to hydrogen peroxide, is that it sits on a shelf.
The problem with stabilizers is they can be removed by vacuum distillation or freezing.
If you need high purity 90% or more vacuum distillation is the only way to go.

Uriel - 1-4-2017 at 13:34

Happy to see that you are sharing my old video !!
"idiots like that" thank you for me Xeon but you can note that the only reason that I published this video is for saving fingers of some teenagers by explain a way to stabilise TATP with oil. It is a philosophical question but I think that publish a way to improve stability is a good thing.
If TATP has not as well knonw, I whould not have done this.

It is possible to electrolyse H2SO4 to make H2O2, they are olds patent from the early 20th century : US 916900 A http://www.google.com/patents/US916900

So H2O2 is not very difficult to synthesize.

XeonTheMGPony - 1-4-2017 at 20:14

I stand by my statement, it doesn't save any one, just encourages the too dim to live types to do it more!

You're lucky you lived to complain at how others view some one messing with a large quantity of a less then stable compound!

Thank what ever mythology you ascribe to that nothing went wrong as well. As others where not so fortunate!

CalAm - 1-4-2017 at 23:35

Quote: Originally posted by Uriel  
Happy to see that you are sharing my old video !!
"idiots like that" thank you for me Xeon but you can note that the only reason that I published this video is for saving fingers of some teenagers by explain a way to stabilise TATP with oil. It is a philosophical question but I think that publish a way to improve stability is a good thing.
If TATP has not as well knonw, I whould not have done this.

It is possible to electrolyse H2SO4 to make H2O2, they are olds patent from the early 20th century : US 916900 A http://www.google.com/patents/US916900

So H2O2 is not very difficult to synthesize.


I can see where you are coming from and you did have good intentions when publishing this video. It is just i hate to see the people using TATP like in the 900g video, seeing so much TATP being handled at once shocks me either way :o.

When you made all of that did you do smaller reactions or all at once to yield the 480g ?

Edit: And it is nice to see you still posting and meeting you on Science madness, seems like a small world.

[Edited on 2-4-2017 by CalAm]

ecos - 2-4-2017 at 01:10

Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  
H2O2 can be made from BaO2 or CaO2 and H2SO4.
BaO2 and CaO2 can be made from CaO and BaO...good luck for the governement to stop those.
.


H2O2 is very hard to synthesis !
using N2O2 or other things is really very dangerous process ! it can blast in the middle !

of course there are other routes. you can buy H2O2 3% from the pharmacy and concentrate it.

Uriel - 3-4-2017 at 13:23

Yes CalAm, I agree, the video of 900g TATP is probably one of stupid teenagers.
(Not sure of 900g however).

It is difficult to say. I have recovered an old stock of 6 years old made in three or four time. But I synthesized 750g in one time, many years ago, with peroxosulfuric acid.

Lot of grumpers about TATP probably haven't tried to ignite large amount, like 200g and see that it burn, and don't explode, even in plastic bag (when ignite by flame).
So when I've made large amounts, when I was much younger, I only keep TATP in large open containers during manipulation. In this way, I would be burned rather than killed !!! (But if a choc or friction occurs, I'm not sure !)

(I see that TATP is more chemically stable that people think, because after one decade, crystals seem not have change of colour or smelling in air. In water, cristals became biger and ... More rectangular ! I guess that in good conditions, TATP can be stored 40 years. But it is a really bad idea, vulnerable people like childrens can potentially fall on them.)

But I agree that it is really harmful that many people made this without enough information on security and chemistry. In my country, recently, some teenagers of 14 to 16 years olds died with this (in a room, surpression I guess). So sad.

"seems like a small world" !! Yes I can see that too !!

PHILOU Zrealone - 3-4-2017 at 14:25

Stop propagating/spreading false safety informations please...

I know of a case here in Brussel where the police lab fridge containing a bottle of TATP crystals into water exploded while undisturbed during weekend night --> only material destroyed and no injuries.

TATP /CTAP; HMTD or other peroxides are inherently unstable and may burn if wet or dispersed crystals and unconfined ...
But those crystals are sublimable and tends to recrystalize into larger crystals which are prone to D2D transition and then become very sensitive to friction, shock or even crystal lattice stress due to some errors into the molecular stacking --> So spontaneous detonation may occure due to own weight amount of new crystals and the intrinsic self confinement of those larger crystals.

Perfect crystals will be OK but devil lies into the imperfect ones that randomly occure.

None of those peroxides are advisable to store or to make in larger amount than 5g; any solid container should be avoided in case of explosion.

I have found a special crystalization method that allows for very large crystals (1-3 cm) but since it is very dangerous material I will not expose this here to avoid injuries of people stupid enough to believe that CTAP or organic peroxides are stable and fun to play with.

[Edited on 3-4-2017 by PHILOU Zrealone]

markx - 3-4-2017 at 14:40

Organic peroxides, very much like menstrual jokes, are not a good idea......period!

PHILOU Zrealone - 4-4-2017 at 14:53

Quote: Originally posted by markx  
Organic peroxides, very much like menstrual jokes, are not a good idea......period!

Hahahaha
Beware to Markx when he has the bad mood of a woman during its periods...

Menstrual <--> Periods :D;):P:)

clearly_not_atara - 4-4-2017 at 15:14

Quote: Originally posted by ecos  
H2O2 is very hard to synthesis !
using N2O2 or other things is really very dangerous process ! it can blast in the middle !


N2O2 is not a stable compound. Do you mean Na2O2? Alkali metal peroxides are known to be very unstable but the alkaline earths are a different story. In particular, BaO2 was the preferred synthesis of peroxide for decades before anthraquinone was discovered, so I have trouble believing it's as unstable as Na2O2.The MSDS does not make it sound very explosive. It states:
Quote:
s) Explosive properties - No data available


However, I have never heard of CaO2 being used to synthesize peroxide, and I suspect that if it worked, barium peroxide would be much less famous. I doubt that PZ can source the formation of CaO2 from atmospheric oxygen under reasonable conditions.

So as of now I continue to believe that barium is the safest way to make H2O2 at home. Should I not?
Quote:
I've already synthesized a quite big quantity of TATP with Peroxosulfuric acid without catalyst because it was already in acid media


Come to think of it, if you're trying to blow up a school (don't do this), you can probably produce caroate by electrolysis without ever touching hydrogen peroxide. We might call this "legislative irony" where government action prevents plenty of things but not what it should have prevented.

[Edited on 4-4-2017 by clearly_not_atara]

halogen - 4-4-2017 at 18:56

it's an asshole thing to do, or it would be: Hydrogen peroxide is already unstable and requires stabilizers for prolonged storage. Most people don't use a bottle at a time, and I imagine these can sit for years until they're needed. So, if you forget about a bottle and it balloons or splatters everywhere, you have angry consumers. There would have to be a warning. And an relatively expensive specially manufactured pressure gasket release valve cap. In addition you have the paradoxical formulation of a stabilizer and a destabilizer.

This is absurd enough not to believe.


[Edited on 5-4-2017 by halogen]

XeonTheMGPony - 4-4-2017 at 20:10

Quote: Originally posted by halogen  
it's an asshole thing to do, or it would be: Hydrogen peroxide is already unstable and requires stabilizers for prolonged storage. Most people don't use a bottle at a time, and I imagine these can sit for years until they're needed. So, if you forget about a bottle and it balloons or splatters everywhere, you have angry consumers. There would have to be a warning. And an relatively expensive specially manufactured pressure gasket release valve cap. In addition you have the paradoxical formulation of a stabilizer and a destabilizer.

This is absurd enough not to believe.


[Edited on 5-4-2017 by halogen]


Never under estimate the stupidity of government regulators!

PHILOU Zrealone - 5-4-2017 at 03:11

Quote: Originally posted by clearly_not_atara  


However, I have never heard of CaO2 being used to synthesize peroxide, and I suspect that if it worked, barium peroxide would be much less famous. I doubt that PZ can source the formation of CaO2 from atmospheric oxygen under reasonable conditions.

So as of now I continue to believe that barium is the safest way to make H2O2 at home. Should I not?

CaO2 is produced via CaO or Ca(2+) salts and peroxides (H or other metals)...
The reaction of CaO2 + H2SO4 --> CaSO4(s) + H2O2(l) is valid for both BaO2 and CaO2.

I gave that example of CaO2 for concentration of H2O2 ...but true that I was unclear.

Maybe that because of the same element raw you thought I was meaning that like BaO, CaO would form peroxide upon heating from air...
==> I don't know...it is possible (?) or maybe by mixing BaO (catalyst?) and CaO...so the BaO2 forms and peroxidizes the CaO into CaO2?
Would be interesting to test also MgO and SrO...but MgO2 wouldn't help for H2O2 isolation from H2SO4 since MgSO4 is soluble...

Praxichys - 5-4-2017 at 06:27

We need to attack the mentality, not the means. It's impossible to prevent the manufacture and use of explosive materials. Even if the sale of all relevant consumer products was somehow banned, organizations big enough would set up their own industries to manufacture them from raw materials.

Terrorists will probably just switch to an easier primary if H2O2 is adulterated. They're not going to bother with making their own H2O2 since they're just trying to procure explosives for a little cost and effort as possible.

If I made a trip to the hardware/grocery store, I could still make azides, fulminates, acetylides, picrates, picramates, DDNP, NHN, TACN, TACP, persulfates, and probably a few others I'm forgetting. Not to mention the myriad of amateur NPED designs out there, or a homemade EBW detonator system.

Further, if these terrorists knew anything about chemistry, they wouldn't be using peroxides as the main charge anyway. Even if ammonium nitrate isn't available, you would see people converting KNO3 into urea nitrate rather than mixing it with sulfur into a crude "gunpowder" and stuffing it into a pressure cooker. Heck, you could just buy smokeless powder and use acetone to convert it to a detonable brick. Considering that you could place a few innocuous eBay orders and whip up a couple of pounds of RDX or PETN in an afternoon, I doubt very much the perpetrators of these crimes understand much chemistry - let alone explosive physics - beyond what they read online.

However, I'll take adulteration of H2O2 any day over a glassware ban. Whatever gives the people that illusion of safety.

markx - 5-4-2017 at 09:00

Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys  
We need to attack the mentality, not the means.


Mentality is the force behind the means. Unfortunately mentality is also something that is vague, unreachable and tedious to cultivate....something that exists on the borderline of the imaginary. Whereas the means are something very real, something that can be taken, broken, banned under pain of penalty and all that in an instant...affecting everyone, despite the orientation of their mentality. For that very reason I fear that an attack on means is always favored over cultivation of mentality as a "first defence".
Looking at the situation that the world is facing at the moment I can't help to think that in near future we shall see a lot of the rights and freedoms that we have grown to take for granted seriously reduced or even becoming extinct....
Far too often do we seem to forget that the ideals defining our current world are not of a divine untouchable origin, but exist merely at the mercy of a covenant born of the actions of those who we have elected to speak on our behalf. Just as this covenant was once created, can it also be changed or abolished in an attempt to fight the rising madness. I hope that it will not come this far, but it is a scenario that is not too improbable....

XeonTheMGPony - 5-4-2017 at 11:00

This is why one most all ways fight, ATM it is the disease of the SJW (Social justice warrior) BLM cults doing the damage. When any large group refuses to accept or acknowledge reality you end up with what we see.


Praxichys - 5-4-2017 at 11:18

@ Markx - Indeed. If the EU is anything, it's an unfortunate set of bureaucratic standards the USA will soon have no choice but to assimilate to. Many of those countries got their chance post-WWII to rewrite constitutions, rearranging policy to bring government into the modern era. The USA had no such opportunity. There are original 300-year-old constitutional rights under fire in the process of becoming an unarmed, bureaucratic, "peaceful" post-imperialist society. A society without dangerous amateurs experimenting outside of licensed oligarchical corporations, a society where defending yourself, or being wealthy, is a crime.

The thing is, it's hard to complain about it when you can't offer a solution. There is no more wild west, nothing remaining for the average man to conquer. If you shared the habitable land in the US equally with everyone living here, we'd all get a little less than 9 acres. That's it. So, we begin to conquer the only thing left: each other.

We need now to move from a mentality of conquest to one of optimization, and that change will be bucked by everyone raised with the expansionist attitude, those who will stand blindly by their constitution in the hope that there is a shred of relevance remaining. It's only a matter of time before we take hard lessons from the developed world, most countries in which have population densities 5 or 6 times that of the USA. Personally I'm a constitution-toting expansionist with a barely-legal home lab and more guns than can be counted on two hands. But I know I will die a sad old man, disarmed, life confiscated, with nothing to remember the good times except a dusty old copy of my reference library to share with disinterested neighbors, of which there will be nearly twice as many.

I realize that what I do can be dangerous to those around me. There are reasons why you can't discharge a firearm within most city limits, much like there will eventually be laws about practicing chemistry at home. As the population grows, these laws become sad necessities, reinforced by EM accidents, terrorists, and the blunders of the misinformed. Science is so far advanced now that new discoveries are rarely made beyond research teams, and this casts redundancy on amateur scientists. Society will look upon us outmoded experimentalists with an ever warier eye considering the dangers involved, eventually outlawing the practice altogether for the benefit of your neighbors.

There aren't enough smart people to fight the structure, and there isn't enough structure to fight the stupid. So, enjoy it until you can't.

Speaking of which, where were we? TATP or something? :)

[Edited on 5-4-2017 by Praxichys]

clearly_not_atara - 5-4-2017 at 11:43

If bureaucracies were actually efficient they'd be more common throughout history. Unfortunately however it seems that after a bureaucratic society forms, the nomenklatura get better and better at cheating the system until they bring it down, like human kudzu. This would be okay if we were the protagonists in a romantic novel where war only affects the NPCs, but in reality it will probably be very unpleasant for all of us. It might not happen to us -- maybe to our children, or their children, or their grandchildren -- but at some point it's gotta happen.

It's amusing and highly inaccurate to think that science-minded libertarians represent a threat to or even a blip on the radar of the bureaucracy. What weakens it are the cancers that grow within -- the people who get a handle on a little power and want to keep it for themselves. What ultimately destroys it are paramilitary organizations (gangs) operating on loyalty instincts that all humans possess an aptitude for but which become developed only if your childhood happens in an optimally terrible environment. But these loyalty instincts, to us, are the behavior of pack animals, and we suppress them as much as we can -- this is not favorable in the long run. They become more prevalent as individual bureaucrats start to exploit and reward them for their own corrupt purposes, and then someone like Donald Trump spends their whole life becoming an expert at abusing them and destabilizes the order from within. But Trump is no Julius Caesar, nor even a Juan Perón.

I've started to suspect that religion is supposed to play the primary social role in suppressing this behavior, by redirecting the loyalty instinct to a nonexistent "leader" who cannot do as much damage as a real one. If I am looking for a direct benefit of a false belief, the Christian prohibition on putting anyone before God works against idols from Hitler and Caesar to Donald Trump and even Elon Musk.

[Edited on 5-4-2017 by clearly_not_atara]