Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Disulfuric acid as an oxidizer similar to manganese heptoxide?

Disulfuric acid as an oxidizer similar to manganese heptoxide?

fleroj - 30-7-2017 at 15:09

I was wondering about this, didn't find out about the properties of disulfuric acid and its salts.

But in theory, it's quite similar to Mn2O7. Both are acid anhydrides, with a similar structure, and strong oxidizers.

Question is, would it have similar hypergolic properties?

PHILOU Zrealone - 30-7-2017 at 23:22

If it is the anhydride of HO-SO2-O-SO2-OH (H2S2O7) thus (-O-SO2-O-SO2-)2 (or S4O12 or SO3)...
Then it will only display dehydrating abilities and catalytic effects (sulfuric anhydride or sulfur trioxide)

If it is the anhydride of HOO-SO2-OO-SO2-OH (H2S2O9 thus S4O16) ...
Then it is a peroxide and as such it will be unstable and a stong oxidizer...probably into the range of Mn2O7.

But does (SO4)4 or (SO4)n exist?

fleroj - 31-7-2017 at 02:17

Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone

If it is the anhydride of HO-SO2-O-SO2-OH (H2S2O7) thus (-O-SO2-O-SO2-)2 (or S4O12 or SO3)...
Then it will only display dehydrating abilities and catalytic effects (sulfuric anhydride or sulfur trioxide)

If it is the anhydride of HOO-SO2-OO-SO2-OH (H2S2O9 thus S4O16) ...
Then it is a peroxide and as such it will be unstable and a stong oxidizer...probably into the range of Mn2O7.

But does (SO4)4 or (SO4)n exist?

I figured it could be useful as a chemical firestarter, given that it's basically H2SO4*SO3, and might be more manageable than the pure SO3 as an oxidizer.

Is that not the case?

PHILOU Zrealone - 31-7-2017 at 12:58

Quote: Originally posted by fleroj

Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone

I figured it could be useful as a chemical firestarter, given that it's basically H2SO4*SO3, and might be more manageable than the pure SO3 as an oxidizer.

Is that not the case?

SO3 or H2SO4*SO3 are poor oxidizers they need strong reducer to express oxidative power...
They would be unsuitable as chemical firestarter except with chemicals that are strong oxidizers on their own...
Like:

KMnO4
KNO3
BaO2
NaOCl
NaOClO
NaOClO2
NaOClO3
...

unionised - 31-7-2017 at 13:14

Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone

Or with very strong reducing agents.
I suspect that the addition of metallic sodium would start a fire

PHILOU Zrealone - 1-8-2017 at 02:50

Quote: Originally posted by unionised

Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone

SO3 or H2SO4*SO3 are poor oxidizers they need strong reducer to express oxidative power...
They would be unsuitable as chemical firestarter except with chemicals that are strong oxidizers on their own...
Like:

KMnO4
KNO3
BaO2
NaOCl
NaOClO
NaOClO2
NaOClO3
...

Or with very strong reducing agents.
I suspect that the addition of metallic sodium would start a fire

See what I have put in bold

...
Sodium is a strong reducer...

Al may form a kind of thermite with CaSO4

Mg must also be quite reactive towards SO3 since it is able to burn into CO2 dry ice and deliver MgO and C...
==> SO3 must no be too different depending onto the respective amount of reactants one will end up with MgO/SO2, MgO/MgS/S.

Na and SO3 may deliver Na2O/SO2 (what is Na2SO3), Na2O/S and Na2O/Na2S/S/Na2S2/Na2Sx depending onto the respective amounts of réactants.
Into the first case
2 Na + SO3 --> Na2SO3 + heat
It is a simple oxydoredox:
-The sodium passes from 0 to +1 oxydation level (times 2 ==> +2)
-The sulfur passes from +6 to +4 oxydation level (==> -2)

[Edited on 1-8-2017 by PHILOU Zrealone]